Hand drawing?

[HGHS-Corp]

I was wondering, If any of you guy/girls hand drew technical drawings in school?, you know Pen,paper and a drawing broad??

Something like this?,

I know the scans is a little crappy quality, but alright i hope

[yom_john]

yes did alot of them at school in metal work class, kind of draw what you see In the trade of metal fabrication you would be taught how to draw patern development drawings to get the shape of two intersecting pipes e.g

[JamesBrauer66]

I did isometric drawings in 9th grade (age 14) graphics class, then again in 11th and 12th grade drafting class. This was in the Southeast US in the 1980s. I still use the techniques I learned, and recently built a drafting board for drawing basement plans to submit for the local building inspector. It seems like it is still easier to draw a picture than to try to do it in a CAD package.

[Birdhunter1]

I had some drafting classes in high school that we had to do that kind of stuff, in my metals shop classes we had to do them to. In college we had to do them often and as a sheetmetal worker we had to that once in a while but mainly a sketch with dimensions sufficed. It helps alot to be able to draw every dimension of it, my drafting instructor in high school once told me that if it can't be drawn it can't be built. Visualizing it in your mind helps alot when building it.

[enlpck]

Did it in school, do it on the job, still teach it to my engineering students.

Spent a couple half days this week measuring and doing up sketches (freehand and a straightedge. No drawing board) for the cutting subcontractor and the machinist. New manway rings and plates, sheve blocks, and a few other things being remanufactured that were going out for cutting.

[HGHS-Corp]

I posted this topic, because we drew drawings all week

And just yesterday we were a signed to write a 5 page report on Cast Iron and Malleable cast iron :eek:

[enlpck]

I posted this topic, because we drew drawings all week

And just yesterday we were a signed to write a 5 page report on Cast Iron and Malleable cast iron :eek:
Sounds like fun. Hard part writing papers like that is cutting the length down to 5 pages, not getting five pages.

Also, it is amazing how much gets done sketching by hand, and is likely to keep getting done that way for years. Surveyors, machinists, welders, engineers, etc, ALL need to have these skills. Often, the sketch is done, and good enough, before the CAD system has even booted. Good enough is all it takes in the real world.

[Birdhunter1]

Last night I was laying out a plate I am needing to make. What it is is an adapter to make wheel weights fit a bigger wheel than the holes in the weight are laid out for. There are three holes in the rims spaced evenly.. so an equilateral triangle. I needed to find the radius of a circle hitting those three points. CAD would have been easy but any button pusher with no skills could have done that, instead I laid the triangle out on 1/4" plate, took my dividers and made arcs from each point then used a straight edge to find the radius, then used my dividers again to draw the circle I was needing to find. The hardest part was laying the triangle out because it had to be exact, after that it was a piece of cake. A computer program would have taken 5 minutes for the computer to load, then another 2-3 for the program to load then 2-3 minutes doing the work to only later have to go back to the steel plate and lay it all out again.

[zapster]

I make my own prints all the time with nothing but a pencil and paper..


Unfortunatly I'm the only one that can understand them..:dizzy:

...zap!

[smithboy]

With the advent of cad programs, it's becoming increasingly hard to find folks with real drafting ability and/or training. My bro-in-law is an architect and was trained before cad was out there...in fact, he got into the business because he was drew stuff so well. He often complains about what he calls "cad jockies" and their inability to do with a computer in a day what he does in just a few seconds with a pencil.

[Birdhunter1]

I know the architecture program at the University I work at doesn't even get into CAD with it's students till at least the second semester, all freshmen students learn to draw it out first before they ever get to look at a computer screen.

[wannabe_welder]

Topics like this are a nice subtle reminder that I'm getting old. When I started working, there was no CAD to be had. All our drawings were by hand and copies were made on real blueprint machines. The first CAD terminal I used was about twice the size of my present desk.

I still do all my layout work for home on a board with a straightedge. All my cabinetwork is laid out that way.

[jamlit]

I have my own drafting table were work on some of my idea's. Most I just doodle on a napkin and build it :laugh: I mostly only draft up fancy drawings for idea's that are a little complex or they are still forming in my head.

Hey Zap ! I think we had the same teacher :laugh:

[aczeller]

nope.. always been on CAD. go to any reputable engineerig firm or architect. for any drawings that they do any more, 99% of the time they are all on CAD. even the preliminary rough sketches are done on CAD in most places (that i've been exposed to anyway). there is actually some jobs where all you do is convert hand drawings to CAD format. CAD is muchmore precise, easier to modify, and in my opinion, is easier to do all around. i never even took hand drawing classes. i just took a Vo-Tech class in AutoCAD for 2 years and i love it. there is no future in hand drawing. it's good to know the symbols and techniques used in drafting, but there are better ways of teaching them than through out-dated, obsolete practices. don'd get me wrong... i have great respect for those who have seen the deveopment of the CAD industry... they are the true draftsmen, but the usefullness of the hand-drawn plan has come and gone. like i said... it still takes a qualified, competent individual to create QUALITY prints. you can train a monkey to draw shapes all day on a computer. SmithBoy, as far as "CAD jockies" being slower, i would argue that till i die. a good, quality CAD tech can out-draw an equally qualified hand-draftsman any day of the week. i can draw an entire house, complete with electrical schematic(s), plumbing plans, HVAC, and elevation views in one day... oh yea... and plot them in color. try to get a hand-draftsman to do that. once again... no offense to anyone. just trying to prove a point.

later,
Andy

[asemaster]

nope.. always been on CAD. go to any reputable engineerig firm or architect. for any drawings that they do any more, 99% of the time they are all on CAD. even the preliminary rough sketches are done on CAD in most places (that i've been exposed to anyway). there is actually some jobs where all you do is convert hand drawings to CAD format. CAD is muchmore precise, easier to modify, and in my opinion, is easier to do all around. i never even took hand drawing classes. i just took a Vo-Tech class in AutoCAD for 2 years and i love it. there is no future in hand drawing. it's good to know the symbols and techniques used in drafting, but there are better ways of teaching them than through out-dated, obsolete practices.

later,
Andy
Wait untill your out on the job and no comp. and you have to show someone what you want done and you cant draw. it's a skill that you should 't be with out. we as a society are relying on comp. way to much.

[aczeller]

we as a society are relying on comp. way to much.

i agree... we are relying on TECHNOLOGY way too much. as soon as the power goes out, we seem to get lost, but one has to remember, people got along without it for a long time. i know how to draw (using techniques and styles that i use in CAD), but i just don't do it. i have the ability to run non-destructive tests in 3D on my computer... it's amazing what you can do now. so why would someone draw a rough sketch, when they can fully engineer a part? once again, i don't mean to step on anyone's toes, start a mud-flinging massacre, or be the chosen one to start a division of forum members. i just wanted to express my views on the subject due to my involvement with the CAD process.

later,
Andy

[silky]

I did a bunch of those in 9th grade. i still prefer that method over the computer. my hand knows more about what i am trying to do than the computer does.

[wannabe_welder]

As with any skill, good CAD draftsmen are a rare breed. Being able to use the system correctly and take advantage of what it can do are skills learned over years, not weeks. I've worked on drawing that appear to be correct, but upon inspection, are garbage. Line segments under lines, parallel lines that aren't parallel, layers that don't line up, garbage floating out in space, and the list goes on. CAD systems allow for an inept draftman to appear to be able to draw, but is a nightmare for someone else to take that same file and try to make it correct. Being able to draw by hand helps to instill correct drawing habits for CAD draftsmen. Also, drafting in CAD doesn't convert to being able to produce quality hand drawn plans. There's all the little things like lettering, line weights, accurate dimensions, overall neatness, view layouts, proper dimensioning. Board drawing will never be obsolete, but it is becoming a lost art.

[DetailerDave]

I agree with wannabe_welder. I have seen cad drawings that were done using X-Y-Z coordinates that looked good on the screen, until you rotated the view. Then they were all out of whack. I learned to draw by hand back in 7th grade. I also did steel detailing, by hand, part time, going back almost 20 years. I use a 3D Cad program now, that saves time, and provides good accuracy, provided I give it the right info to start, lol, and also produces files that load directly into CNC shop equipment. This saves a bundle for the shop as well.

[Knotbored]

The 747, the space shuttle and all the locomotives and maps and reactors were all designed on a drawing board. I agree CAD is a quicker way to put thoughts onto a set design, but I still thing a design is created inside your head and the paper or digital produced is a way to show it to someone who cannot read your mind. A chalk sketch on a scrap of metal will work as well as an Autocad sketch.

[andromeda]

I know this thread is along the lines of us old farts vs. the young ones, but I don't think the problem issue is cad vs.drawing .I think it is mental ability and maths, vs. the computer told me, and I can't work without a calculator.
I prefer to draw things as it gets them out of my head, and I can then see it on paper.If I can't do that I don't know what I am talking about.Also in doing the sketch,and the maths to go with it ,I do a lot of "what if scenarios".So for me it is a combination process, of problem solving by trying out ideas.
A CAD system or computer or calculator, should only be used as a mechanical aid, in the checking of the accuracy of the numbers at this point.
Using the sketch and the logic behind it should be the basis of a quick one off ,for approval, or approval before a full blown CAD drawing.
The problem today, is that most CAD operators have left their logic behind, and are more interested in what plotter pen to use,than what problem we are solving.
Additionally the computer gives them the rules, and they have never learned where those rules came from, and how they can be manipulated.
Finally the greatest sin is absolute lack of mental arithmetic.I have taught two classes of college graduates in the last two years ,who cannot do things like fit 'x' number of 8' long bays in a 100' Long space . Not one of them ,out of 16 could do it in their head ,even when encouraged to do so.
That is truly frightening, as it says you have no math theory.Anybody can give you wrong change,wrong dimensions and you will blindly accept it.
When I whip a piece of paper out, do a quick sketch, mental arithmetic with a bit of mental juggling they look a me like I am a fossil who dis some kind of trick.They don't understand it, so it has no value and can be dismissed.

[aczeller]

i have a feeling that this thread will not end for quite a while, so i figure i'll add a bit more to it.

as we look at the big picture in this thread, we see that there is a very big division of feelings towards CAD technicians and the "old-school" draftsmen of the drawing board era.

if we look at history, yes the drawing board came first, and yes, it worked for some of the most significant items in the current world. take a look at the 7 World Wonders... now name one that was designed using AutoCAD, MicroStation, Pro E, Solid Works, or any other CAD system the is used today. due to the fact that computers were first used in the mid-1900's, you won't find one of these marvels of engineering to be desinged using one of these programs.

Now look at nearly any industry that requires draftsmen, in one way or another. there is a very good chance that you most of us would have a difficult time finding one that uses the manual verison(s) of drafting. Now before i get attacked for not seeing the whole picture, i will admit, there are some very good, reputable shops, not jsut welding-oriented, that still use hand drawn plans, however looking at the vast majority of businesses, computers are the primary form of design and drafting plan creations. Now i am not saying that if a shope doens't use CAD, they are not good, however after converting a small business's file system from hand-drawn prints to AutoCAD plots, i have seen the true benefits of the "upgrade" to CAD.

I agree that there are quite a few CAD techs that do not know the first thing of truely "designing" and "engineering" parts and/or assemblies. i also agree that they do not belong in front of a computer... most of those guys shoudl not even be allowed within sight of the general public at McDonalds... they should be kept in the back counting ketchup packets and folding napkins... even the french-fry oil may be a little much for them. however, i have also seen MANY a CAD draftsman that can do amazing things with these programs. i hear alot about the BFH test on assemblies to test structural stability and strength. there is now, has has been for some time, a thing called Finite Element Analysis (FEA). FEA is the stuff you see on the discovery channel when they test the strength of something without building it. this saves, time, materials, and lots of frustration spread across an entire company when something doesn't work right when they are under a tight deadline. this is just one of the nearly infinate possibilities that are able to be used with CAD platforms.

i agree that things CAN go terribly, terribly wrong when CAD is improperly employed or executed. never the less, the risks far outweigh the rewards. i can tell you from personal expereince as a draftsman for the past 4+ years, that AutoCAD is a very complex CAD system that can do far more than a hand draftsman ever could. it has been proven time and time again that CAD, when properly utilized, can cut your time by over 90%, can decrease your scrap pile size, and can thus save a company millions, upon millions of dollars per year, if not months. obviously, with a larger company, the rewards and savings are far greater than with a smaller, independant shop, like many of our forum members are associated with. sometimes, it is jsut not fiscally rational to switch to a CAD system for drafting and designing. after the increased costs for properly trained employees capable of properly drawing in a CAD setting, the benefits that are expeceted by CAD draftsmen, and even just the basic initial set-up fees such as a high-end computer, the program, the desk, file cabinet, and all other associated costs, for every new CAD station and employee that an employer has, the cost of this new luxury can exceed $50,000 the first year. like i said, this could easily put a small company in bankruptcy court.

When i see WHO is leaning to which ever side, i notice that MOST of the guys that prefer the hand drafting are the (no inteneded harm) "older guys" that have been in the industry for quite some time. the younger folks (AKA "kids") show a little prejustice towards the CAD platforms that are currently available. i think that it mainly boils down to what everyone has grown up and learned with. the older guys have seen the hand drawings, and the problems that arrise from the original hand-draftsmen converting, or attempting to convert, their knowledge to CAD. I however, have never drawn a line by hand (professionally and officially) in my life. yes, i sketch, and yes i run rough numbers in my head. yes, accidents do happen, but when something arrises, it is easier to change in AutoCAD than it is with a hand-drawn print. i know how to draw and properly engineer the parts, and i know how to run the long-math calculations. however, i also have seen how much easier and faster CAD can be in these situations. yes, ou can sit down and figure out how much a custom-shaped beam can support at "X" feet from the fulcrum point by plugging in know values such as density, tensile strength of the metal, etc., but i also know that if i draw it out in AutoCAD in 3D form and click a few buttons to specify the alloy of the steel or other metal, the computer will run all the calculations for me, tell me how much it will deflect/bend, where it will break first, when it will break, why it will break, why it won;t break in certain parts, whether or not i need to remove material to help the overall structure, and what i can do to make this part stronger/more durable.

like i said, i know what CAD can do, and i know the limitations of hand-drawing. i truely believe that most of the feelings in this thread are justified by what the poster has been accustomed to within their job description(s).

i'm sorry if i stepped on my toes as i was not intending to. i just felt it was time to step up to the plate for the CAD industry.

Later,
Andy

[andromeda]

To add my own little clarity.I have implemented two different CAD/CAM systems at two different companies .I am familiar with the plus/minus of the situations.CAD is a wonderful tool for some of the tasks as noted, and in fact can only do some of those tasks.It enables us to make things in lighter,stronger materials.I fell in love with computers when I was 16 and saw my first IBM 360 at work.Here I am 40 years later, with eight computers around the house in daily use.
What infuriates me is "new" school engineers who use CAD/CAM and tell me that steel beams shouldn't be bending like they are.Insisting on the same thing, until the words die in their throat, as thy look at their handiwork,bending.
This summer I spent countless nights in my garage testing prototypes sent to me by a honors degree engineer/lecturer at Penn State and 2 years into his masters.He was designing the parts with CAD/CAM, virtually copying a part, we were getting from another supplier.We went through Different geometry, different wall thickness, different openings, but none of that mattered to the final product.It had to be fitted to 4 different column profiles and how it went on,stayed on and came off were the defining characterestics.Guess who couldn't do that with the computer ? Guess who couldn't seem to understand what was needed. Instead I kept getting the optimal sections ,the 30% stiffer sections .That is what us old school guys can't get around.In the old days I would have called up "Stan" who would have understood what was needed.Stan would have gone away.No e mails ,drawing approvals until Stan was ready to show me waht he had.When he showed it to me ,you can be pretty sure it was done right.
Instead I had weeks of agony and we were paying the guy! All was settled until they found out, that when the plastic parts were cooled the tolerances went out of whack.
So maybe I am old enough to have seen both sides of this and many times I would prefer to work with "Stan"

[steve45]

I took mechanical drawing classes in junior high school, high school, and college (Mechanical Engineering). I don't work as an engineer anymore. I've got a mediocre CAD program on my computer and it's not very good.

However, I've seen what AutoCad can do in the hands of someone well versed in it. It's truly amazing! I say AutoCad is the way to go, if you can!

I have a computer with my CAD program in my shop for drawing simple projects. I used to sketch stuff out on a paper bag or cardboard box, but found it was easier to see what things would really look like when drawn to scale. Also, much easier to get accurate dimensions.

[wannabe_welder]

CAD is a tool, just like a welder. Just because you can make sparks with a welder doesn't mean you know how to weld, just like pushing bottons on a computer doesn't make you a competent draftsman or designer.

I love CAD, I've used multiple systems for almost 20 years, I started with 2D systems and worked for about 8 years on 3D modeling, so don't go reading something into this that's not there. I've just seen too many times when someone thinks that just because they can put down lines with a computer, it makes them a designer. Just like making sparks with a welder.

[Tinbasher]

CAD software is great...it's an incredibly powerful tool that has allowed us to design things that otherwise could never have been designed. That being said, I think one of the unfortunate products of CAD is a whole lot of lazy 'draftsman' out there.
I'm not that long in the tooth, but I have had occasion to work from prints that were drawn by a guy that couldn't even turn a computer on, and I'll take them any day over a CAD drawing that someone was too lazy to even dimension properly. In my mind, there is a certain way things should be done..and if you stick to the same rules every time...and all those involved are aware of those rules...then there is a lot less potential for miscommunication and error. These guys used to have to serve a proper apprenticeship...where the right way to do things were surely drilled into their heads...Today a 10 month diploma course and all of a sudden they are designer/draftsman. Give me a break FFS...half of 'em can't even print legibly.

In the real world...80% of the time fabrication is the product of a hand drawn sketch and the ability to think on your feet. Especially on the simple stuff...we can have it half built in the time it takes to turn the computer on :laugh: :laugh:

[William McCormick Jr]

CAD software is great...it's an incredibly powerful tool that has allowed us to design things that otherwise could never have been designed. That being said, I think one of the unfortunate products of CAD is a whole lot of lazy 'draftsman' out there.
I'm not that long in the tooth, but I have had occasion to work from prints that were drawn by a guy that couldn't even turn a computer on, and I'll take them any day over a CAD drawing that someone was too lazy to even dimension properly. In my mind, there is a certain way things should be done..and if you stick to the same rules every time...and all those involved are aware of those rules...then there is a lot less potential for miscommunication and error. These guys used to have to serve a proper apprenticeship...where the right way to do things were surely drilled into their heads...Today a 10 month diploma course and all of a sudden they are designer/draftsman. Give me a break FFS...half of 'em can't even print legibly.

In the real world...80% of the time fabrication is the product of a hand drawn sketch and the ability to think on your feet. Especially on the simple stuff...we can have it half built in the time it takes to turn the computer on :laugh: :laugh:

So true. Unless a helpful or more informative more easily understood method is developed they should leave it alone.

That is what makes my use of Cadd infuriate some people. Because I use it to exactly calculate positions for pieces of material within a project I am building. Everything about my Cadd program does something real. I use General Cadd.

Everything I draw comes out like I draw it. Because all the measurements are right. I also know things about manufacturing that the architects do not. So I have an edge.

Most people think a compass reads and gives you your bearings. In fact a compass reads and gives you your azimuth. Bearings are read from 0 degrees pointing east. A compass and azimuth is read from zero degrees pointing North. They often rotate the bearing angle by ninety degrees to further confuse things.

Right now I am trying to get my Cadd company to include a measuring tool to not only cumulatively measure segments but to total them as well.

So when I hand the plans to someone they will know that I am telling them to use one piece of material and not to cut and weld. But it takes time to convince them of the necessity of such a tool. It would be great for landscapers, that have to surround gardens with rocks. You could just click at each segment end, and a dimension for that segment as well as a running total would be placed. Maybe a format of 36" of 128" to let the fellow making it know that it is one piece.


http://www.rockwelder.com/GeneralCadd/ruder.JPG

This is an older drawing. Look at the detail on this drawing. This was done by hand. I had posted this for an idea for a BOM (Bill of materials) on the General Cadd forum. I was given this by the fellow that drew it. I believe he passed away recently.


Sincerely,



William McCormick

[AnotherDano]

What is the other 'd' for?

Computer Aided Design D_________?

[aczeller]

there are a few variations...

Computer Assisted Design
Computer Assisted Drafting

Computer Aided Design
Computer Aided Drafting

Computer Assisted Design & Drafting
Computer Aided Design & Drafting

They all mean the same thing pretty much, jsut different termanology.

Later,
Andy

[ROLXTOOLS]

I am enjoying what everyone has to say, for me I did not change with the times, so I ended up feeling like the blacksmith did when the cars came out, in other words I have no horses to shoe!!! I must change with the times or send my horses to China where I can afford the price of shoeing.
I am an old toolmaker,and I have seen what a wire edm machine can do, or a laser burner that runs off cad programs. There is no way I can keep up with the old way of doing machining, welding, or production, at todays labor cost. However, if we send a lawyer with every job we send to China it won't be long until they will sue each other until they will need insurance and all the other cost that will drive their cost up to ours!
thanks,
Mike

[dave powelson]

Both have their place in the scheme of things--guys.
To argue otherwise, is like saying 'Who's better??....men or women'

Both are requisite tools to get things done, efficiently and effectively.
I'm 'old school' and began mechanical drafting in 7th grade; supervised engineering departments for Textron and Fairchild divisions, then did military spare part build-contracting, then bought a fab shop, etc.
-From 1975 forward, I've used outside vendor CADCAM, extensively.
-For my 'normal' shop work, I do paper drafting, with picture layouts for customers.
-If I need CAD and/or CADCAM [CAM=Computer Aided Manufacturing]--I job that out---supplying the CAD jockey with basic drawings and parameters of what is it, I wish.

Neither paper drafting or CAD will replace good engineering. CAD can make good engineering-better, faster, more effective. Somebody's still got to have the smarts for the design and the chutzpah to see the design thru to finish.....

The implementation of CADCAM has revolutionized the production of just about everything, in the last 30 years, doing all kinds of things, just not possible, by paper drafting-since the CAD design is then translated to machining, forming, welding, inspection, etc. requirements.
This is as significant as the invention of the wheel.

[tresi]

I did OK in mech drawing classes that I had to take in college but I was the guy couldn't even letter without the little cheater template. I think I had every curvey thing and cheater template that the bookstore had.