Acetelyne explosion?

[daddy]

how dangerous is it if someone runs too much pressure? I noticed a coworker whose cutting outfit had a broken acetelyne pressure guage on his regulator today. I fixed it, but was wondering if anyone knows definitively from experience what can happen, and how much is too much?

[Joe H]

I don't know, but I about wet my pants the other other day at work. I opened the valve on the acetylene tank and the needle shot WAAAYYYYY up into the red. Something like 25-30psi.

It mae me wonder wht the dang regulators even allow goofy stuff like that. Why aren't they limited to 14psi?

[CaptainWilly]

yea what the hell I always wondered that to.... its dangerous to go about 15psi, but my dang gauge is adjustable to 50psi!?

I have no idea what happens above 15 psi either, all my book says is "it becomes unstable"

[TEK]

http://www.nbc5i.com/news/13751997/detail.html?dl=mainclick


Just follow the rules; they are there for a reason.

[daddy]

TEK- thanks for the link... I still am curious though. The guage that I fixed today may have been broken for a long time. Is it just dumb luck that this guy never got hurt? I would really like to know what specifically can happen. I was always one of those kids who asked too many questions!:)

[tresi]

You probably won't find anybody living that has experience using acetylene at pressures above 15 psi. Yes it really can explode if you try to light it at high pressures.

[AnotherDano]

The acetone that stabilizes the Acy doesn't stay in the tank. It will start to flow out with the gas.

I haven't witnessed the results of that, but it is what you need to avoid.

[Shade Tree Welder]

The acetone that stabilizes the Acy doesn't stay in the tank. It will start to flow out with the gas.

I haven't witnessed the results of that, but it is what you need to avoid.Aspiration of the acetone occurs when you remove acetylene from the tank faster than the tank can handle.

When you exceed 15 psi of acetylene gas the gas can detonate. I have seen it happen once, the hose was laid wide open and left burning in places, we were lucky that it oxygen hose was not perforated at the same time or we would have had a very large blow torch in a very small compartment. Someone close to the acetylene tank secured the tank really fast. The dentonation can set off the tank. It didn't our case, we were just lucky. Other than the hose, the only causulty was several pair of undershorts!!!

[weldgault]

I just posted a new thread on acetylene, that might answer some of your questions. John G.

[wielro]

Just a note regarding the comment about "I opened the cylinder valve and the needle shot to over 15 psi". I have always made a practice upon shutdown to depressurize/bleed and then back the regulator out until it moves freely thus avoiding the surge on start up. I routinely check the regulator prior to opening the cylinder valve as well.

[weldgault]

Just a note regarding the comment about "I opened the cylinder valve and the needle shot to over 15 psi". I have always made a practice upon shutdown to depressurize/bleed and then back the regulator out until it moves freely thus avoiding the surge on start up. I routinely check the regulator prior to opening the cylinder valve as well.


That is a very true statement and everyone should do that out of habbit, if you want to be safe. John

[tanglediver]

Just a note regarding the comment about "I opened the cylinder valve and the needle shot to over 15 psi". I have always made a practice upon shutdown to depressurize/bleed and then back the regulator out until it moves freely thus avoiding the surge on start up. I routinely check the regulator prior to opening the cylinder valve as well.
What they said!! And keep acetylene bottles upright. Never, ever let the valve be damaged.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrz-E_QuM3E

[William McCormick Jr]

how dangerous is it if someone runs too much pressure? I noticed a coworker whose cutting outfit had a broken acetelyne pressure guage on his regulator today. I fixed it, but was wondering if anyone knows definitively from experience what can happen, and how much is too much?

I think that at those pressures, the acetylene hose can detonate. Even with just air, and certainly with oxygen. So when you have fifty or a hundred feet of hose on reel it might be a problem. Ha-ha.

The best acetylene accident waiting to happen is when it gets cold. If you take a full bottle of acetylene and cool it down to about zero degrees Fahrenheit. Acetylene will not come out.

If you are with a new apprentice and he gets no gas from a cold bottle, he takes the regulator off the bottle. He is cold and angry and does not like that he had to go out and get another bottle. And he leaves the main valve open assuming there is nothing in the tank. I have seen where nothing comes out of a nearly full tank.

An hour later the sun comes out and the tank starts to put out acetylene. Or the tank gets put into the indoor storage rack, from the cold van. Ha-ha. The greatest delay release I ever saw.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

how dangerous is it if someone runs too much pressure? I noticed a coworker whose cutting outfit had a broken acetelyne pressure guage on his regulator today. I fixed it, but was wondering if anyone knows definitively from experience what can happen, and how much is too much?

I think that at those pressures, the acetylene hose can detonate. Even with just air, and certainly with oxygen. So when you have fifty or a hundred feet of hose on reel it might be a problem. Ha-ha.

The best acetylene accident waiting to happen is when it gets cold. If you take a full bottle of acetylene and cool it down to about zero degrees Fahrenheit. Acetylene will not come out.

If you are with a new apprentice and he gets no gas from a cold bottle, he takes the regulator off the bottle. He is cold and angry and does not like that he had to go out and get another bottle. And he leaves the main valve open assuming there is nothing in the tank. I have seen where nothing comes out of a nearly full tank.

An hour later the sun comes out and the tank starts to put out acetylene. Or the tank gets put into the indoor storage rack, from the cold van. Ha-ha. The greatest delay release I ever saw.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

how dangerous is it if someone runs too much pressure? I noticed a coworker whose cutting outfit had a broken acetelyne pressure guage on his regulator today. I fixed it, but was wondering if anyone knows definitively from experience what can happen, and how much is too much?

I think that at those pressures, the acetylene hose can detonate. Even with just air, and certainly with oxygen. So when you have fifty or a hundred feet of hose on reel it might be a problem. Ha-ha.

The best acetylene accident waiting to happen is when it gets cold. If you take a full bottle of acetylene and cool it down to about zero degrees Fahrenheit. Acetylene will not come out.

If you are with a new apprentice and he gets no gas from a cold bottle, he takes the regulator off the bottle. He is cold and angry and does not like that he had to go out and get another bottle. And he leaves the main valve open assuming there is nothing in the tank. I have seen where nothing comes out of a nearly full tank.

An hour later the sun comes out and the tank starts to put out acetylene. Or the tank gets put into the indoor storage rack, from the cold van. Ha-ha. The greatest delay release I ever saw.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Sandy]

The best acetylene accident waiting to happen is when it gets cold. If you take a full bottle of acetylene and cool it down to about zero degrees Fahrenheit. Acetylene will not come out.

That's about the most dangerous piece of info you've put out so far, William. This is absolutely NOT true and should not be posted as such. Thre frezzing point of acetylene is in the extreme sub-zero's. I'm not sure what the freezing point of acetone is,,,,,,,,but I'm darn sure it isn;t zero by a long shot.

The hotter it is the more unstable acetylene gets and the reverse is true for cold.

[TEK]

I agree with Sandy and most of you cold country guys know it too. I have used acety at 14 deg Far. and it worked just fine. Wild Bill is gonna get somebody hurt:nono: . Use more caution reading his posts than you do using acetylene.....

[Roy Hodges]

I was told by a real NERD that the really dangerous point in acetylene outlet pressure is 30 psi. And, that the industry felt that they should state 15 psi is the safe
MAXIMUM pressure , so many , if not most acetylene regulators are red lined above 15 psi , or some even won't allow more than 15 P. S. I. output. and some of my Victor reg. screws are too short to allow more than 15 psi output . Anyways, unless you want to go meet Satan real soon, just abide by the 15 psi limit , and be safe . If you're cutting really thick metal , use a journey man size single stage regulator and a BIG hose , & stay under 15psi.

[Sandy]

I was told by a real NERD that the really dangerous point in acetylene outlet pressure is 30 psi. And, that the industry felt that they should state 15 psi is the safe

That sounds very realistic. Most guidelines are set within a safe zone. There won't be any magic happens at 16psi. The basics are, once removed from the acetone (as the acetylene in your hose is), acetylene becomes unstable at any pressure. The higher the pressure, the more so, the higher the temperature the more so. The 15psi red rule probably covers a nice range of conditions.

[daddy]

Sandy, and TEK... thank you for the responses, esp. with regard to inaccurate / mis-information... I am very new here and sincerely hope that I am not led astray. So far I have found alot of very helpful info, and hope to be able to contribute at some point. " Wild Bill ":dizzy: with a grain of salt. got it.

[MicroZone]

The actual OSHA standard, 1910.253(a)(2) says,

Maximum pressure. Under no condition shall acetylene be generated, piped
(except in approved cylinder manifolds) or utilized at a pressure in excess of 15
psig (103 kPa gauge pressure) or 30 psia (206 kPa absolute).

[MicroZone]

Boiling point (1.013 bar) : -83.8 °C

Melting point : -84 °C

Autoignition temperature : 325 °C

[weldgault]

Some more information on acetylene can be found in Jefferson's Welding Encyclopedia/18th Edition, Published by American Welding Society. Edited by Robert (Bob) O'Brien, who was the technical director for AWS after retiring from Linde, where he was the man who patened Plasma. He was a very good friend and respected leader, in the industry. Good information. John G.

[William McCormick Jr]

That's about the most dangerous piece of info you've put out so far, William. This is absolutely NOT true and should not be posted as such. Thre frezzing point of acetylene is in the extreme sub-zero's. I'm not sure what the freezing point of acetone is,,,,,,,,but I'm darn sure it isn;t zero by a long shot.

The hotter it is the more unstable acetylene gets and the reverse is true for cold.


No my friend the information you just put out is the most dangerous thing I have seen.

I have had to change out multiple bottles working in windy allies in the city, changing out condenser units. I had the problem of three full bottles to make two weld joints. The bottles were stored outside. And put into the back of a cold van, and driven to the city.

I was working with a fellow named John, he was doing the soldering. He could not even heat one joint, there was no pressure in the tank. Immediately in under 60 seconds the torch went dead. I got another tank and hooked it up, it went dead in ten seconds. Then we realized that either we got empty tanks by mistake or it was that cold.

So we started putting the tanks inside to warm them up. The problem was that it was only about 50 degrees inside the building under construction. The other problem was that one tank, we thought was really empty.

So we put the possibly full tank and the one we believe is empty, inside to warm. We waited about an hour.
He still could not heat the pipe with the second and third tank that were both low on pressure. So we put two inside while he stayed out to make it look like we were working with the third.
About an hour later, I go in and just crack the valve to see which if any of the tanks were thawing. One gave nothing the original one that we felt was empty. The other I could hear.

So I put the regulator on the tank we had inside that seemed to be somewhat full, and just out of my understanding of refrigeration, and acetylene shut the valve on the other we thought was empty. Even though two experts in acetylene handling that have both over thirty years declared it empty. I had checked it anyway.

Well we ended up waiting for it to warm up in the city. And then were able to silphos one joint with the one tank after lunch. And to my surprise I go in and put the regulator on the wrong tank the one we declared empty, and I have a gauge reading of one half tank. I put it on the other and had a gauge reading of half a tank of acetylene.

You have to take into consideration that when the gas is allowed to escape it also has the effect of cooling the tank more. Till nothing comes out by human perception.

During all this we started to form strange conclusions that we later threw away. The first tank was the warmest, it went the longest and then got the coldest of all the tanks. The other two tanks had gotten cold in the windy alley and put out almost nothing compared to the first. So there is a lot to consider before you just tell someone that acetylene does or does not turn to a gas at a certain temperature. I was there. It was scary even though we violated no rules of using acetylene. It was cold but not that cold.

This is just some of the stuff that went through our minds. Amongst some of the things that went through our mind was a bad regulator. Something in the torch or hose. Maybe we weren't opening the acetylene main valve enough. Believe me if it could happen we thought of it. We were there and had to perform.

After the tanks warmed up they were all nearly full.

We get and use dissolved acetylene, maybe you do not.

You could easily simulate the cold with dry ice. Or liquid carbon dioxide with a siphon tube for freezing pipes.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

TEK- thanks for the link... I still am curious though. The guage that I fixed today may have been broken for a long time. Is it just dumb luck that this guy never got hurt? I would really like to know what specifically can happen. I was always one of those kids who asked too many questions!:)


Because in the cold the tanks lose pressure. And you have to compensate by decreasing the pressure the regulator diaphragm keeps against the tank pressure. On a hot day it would be way over thirty pounds.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[weldgault]

That is one reason that it a good practice to always cut the cylinder off, drain the torch and hose, everytime you finish with the cylinder. Then no one will get hurt. John

[Sandy]

Even though two experts in acetylene handling that have both over thirty years declared it empty. I had checked it anyway.

That pretty much says enough for me, William.

[William McCormick Jr]

I agree with Sandy and most of you cold country guys know it too. I have used acety at 14 deg Far. and it worked just fine. Wild Bill is gonna get somebody hurt:nono: . Use more caution reading his posts than you do using acetylene.....


You are talking about something you do not understand. I have actually had this happen to me. No doubts about it.

Our area barely goes down to minus seven but once or twice a year. They may use more acetone to reduce tank pressure in our normally hot and humid climate. Now comes that minus seven degree day and we do not get acetylene after an initial quick boil off that cools the tank right down to zero output by human preception.

When you find out I am right and Senators will not even address this, maybe you will take an equally rude attitude towards them as well? And to the many great scholars that have not warned you like I have.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[DDA52]

:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

[William McCormick Jr]

That pretty much says enough for me, William.

So how much does running the torch for sixty seconds in a cold windy alley cool off the tank then?

I never claimed the temperature of acetylene or the temperature of acetone was anything. Experts assumed that I did. I just described an actuality.

I claimed exactly what I claimed and I am right because I was there.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

You probably won't find anybody living that has experience using acetylene at pressures above 15 psi. Yes it really can explode if you try to light it at high pressures.

It happens all the time, when you cut a lot. Because the day before it was cold you up the pressure to about seven pounds. Then the next day the torch is out in the sun for a while and up pops the pressure.

I have cut for a whole day after lunch, not knowing that the guy that went to shut off the tanks actually turned up the regulators. Then I go over and check the tanks and shut them. The guy was someone that should know better.

The acetylene at those red pressures with air or oxygen in the hose can go boom. And to be honest with oxygen in the hose, it can go boom from sound waves. Pure acetylene is about as dangerous as hydrogen from my experience. It will not self ignite if pure.

But who can say what is in the hoses. Often there is carbon and carbon can have oxygen or hydrogen attached to it, or both in the case of water vapor.

That is the danger. Not the pressure. Any pressure can cause it.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[weldgault]

:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:


We don't have those problems, here in Texas because when it gets to 50 degrees, the coats come out. OK? John

[offrdfun73]

Because in the cold the tanks lose pressure. And you have to compensate by decreasing the pressure the regulator diaphragm keeps against the tank pressure. On a hot day it would be way over thirty pounds.

Sincerely,


William McCormick
Are you saying you must adjust the regulator all the time? If so BS I can set the reg and never touch it till it empty. We had a work platform we hauled on the front of a JD544 wheel loader and on so mand ocasions you could not see or adjust the regs from ice. If we could get the tanks open they worked fine. I remember right before I quite and moved here it was +1 with a -25 wind chill and we had to go cut some scrap and I used 2 or 3 bottles that were stored out side and the worked fine.

[William McCormick Jr]

That is one reason that it a good practice to always cut the cylinder off, drain the torch and hose, everytime you finish with the cylinder. Then no one will get hurt. John

Not necessarily.

Shutting the main tank great.

Draining the hoses completely is not feasible without flushing them. And if you leave the torch valves open all night you risk letting water vapor into the hoses. Water vapor and acetylene make explosives. The carbon from a few backfires is usually the medium for the water to grab hold.

Now you come out and hit the hoses and torch with 7-30 pounds of pressure and it could pop, or boom.

I like to creep my valves open. I mean slowly. I have never lost a hose, I had never even had a check valve till recently. Some say check valves do not work, by actual detonation of the hoses.

If you drain the pressure from the hoses, you also risk pulling water vapor by the creation of a vacuum as the torch cools.

I have had many years of zero torch accidents.

Only when I fool around on the Forth of July do I get into trouble.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Are you saying you must adjust the regulator all the time? If so BS I can set the reg and never touch it till it empty. We had a work platform we hauled on the front of a JD544 wheel loader and on so mand ocasions you could not see or adjust the regs from ice. If we could get the tanks open they worked fine. I remember right before I quite and moved here it was +1 with a -25 wind chill and we had to go cut some scrap and I used 2 or 3 bottles that were stored out side and the worked fine.

You might be using non-dissolved acetylene. Most around here use dissolved acetylene.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

I never touch my regulator either while I am working, but have gone over to find it high or low.

Because I just make the changes at the torch and do not adjust the regulator. But if I see it high I like to knock it down.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[weldgault]

The correct way to adjust a torch or Tip is adjust the flame frome the regulators and the tip will get enough (volume) not pressure, to run the tip. If your adjust from the valves, you choke off the volume the regulator can supply. That is the correct way, but it has been as you say for years and the correct way has not been adopted in the 45 years, I know of. John

[William McCormick Jr]

Are you saying you must adjust the regulator all the time? If so BS I can set the reg and never touch it till it empty. We had a work platform we hauled on the front of a JD544 wheel loader and on so mand ocasions you could not see or adjust the regs from ice. If we could get the tanks open they worked fine. I remember right before I quite and moved here it was +1 with a -25 wind chill and we had to go cut some scrap and I used 2 or 3 bottles that were stored out side and the worked fine.


Undissolved pure acetylene can be a problem. Because it does not absorb as much energy as it leaves the tank, very quickly under much more pressure.

It was estimated that ninety large commercial tanks of undissolved acetylene in a coliseum or closed in stadium opened drained and detonated would end the world as we know it. By smaller experiments.

This was part of the Armies Green Beret Training long passed. Ten well trained men in theory can enter an industrial country and destroy the country without bringing any weapons.

With time dissolved acetylene might in a tight stadium do the same. Usually though there is ventilation.

It is not known if tanks of undissolved acetylene would or could burst accidentally and simultaneously and can cause a similar accident. It is believed possible.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Computer error duplicate post deleted.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Computer error duplicate post deleted.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[weldgault]

For years I have held safety demo's on the safe handeling of oxy/acteylene and used a 2 oz cup with a hole in the top to introduce un lit mixed gas and then lit the torch and passed the torch across the cup and have blown out windows and scared a lot of people to soiled pants. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS. John

[MicroZone]

Just in case this was missed:

Acetylene (C2H2)
Molecular weight 26 amu
Freezing point -81.8 C
Boiling point 84 C

:laugh: :laugh:

[TEK]

Thank you John. Those with an open mind, and open eyes, that still do not know it all, appreciate that info.....

[William McCormick Jr]

For years I have held safety demo's on the safe handeling of oxy/acteylene and used a 2 oz cup with a hole in the top to introduce un lit mixed gas and then lit the torch and passed the torch across the cup and have blown out windows and scared a lot of people to soiled pants. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS. John

I know a guy Rock and Roll Al, he has been on the Internet for years and years. He is pretty popular, he even made it into Wikipedia. I believe he works in a defense plant. I believe he just moved to the state of Washington.

He always hated, that no matter what subject we started off at we always ended up at explosives or some sort of doomsday device. But when I made a movie of oxygen and acetylene exploding. He really woke up on the right side of the bed, and recalled the excitement of his younger days in shop class, with the teacher detonating a balloon right in the middle of the classroom.

He believed that everyone should see it once before using it.

I know that it took away some of the nervous questions I had. After I saw it, I knew I could always get blown up. Ha-ha. No need to worry about could I get blown up anymore.

http://www.rockwelder.com/Explosives/blast2.wmv


That bag was the size of a basketball. A bag of well mixed oxygen and acetylene.

After my mishap with the bag going off in my hands some years ago. I put in the oxygen first, get the bag all separated for static, and then add the 35 percent acetylene. It was a very humid day, it may have needed a bit more acetylene on a humid day. The first two bags went with to much of a harmless crackle. Very little difference in the mix.

You may have caught that purple or lavender streak heading towards the bag before it exploded. That is ambient radiation being slowed by the extreme voltage just before the blast. I was able to catch it with a rather inexpensive camera. The camera was damaged but I managed to get the video of the explosion.

You can also feel the pressure on your back before the explosion. It is really scary to feel it. You are to afraid to look away from the bomb you just set off. Ha-ha. You also lose hearing right before the blast. You get a maddening high pitched sound in your ears. That makes the blast seem that much more powerful and loud when it does go off.

But you can see in the movie things and feelings were hurt. Ha-ha. It broke a very heavy old fashioned flower pot. Almost a half inch thick. It bent a large "C" clamp that was holding a piece of metal. It bent the metal that was free to fly. It is nothing to fool with. I have no doubt this gas can pick up metal and hurl it at munitions speed.





Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Shade Tree Welder]

...Pure acetylene is about as dangerous as hydrogen from my experience. It will not self ignite if pure.
Mr. McCormick,

I am just completely astounded everytime you post your misinformation. First, by the fact that you have not eliminated yourself from the gene pool yet and secondly that you have not killed anyone else.

Acetylene is colorless and odorless in its pure state, lighter than air and highly flammable. Its low LFL and wide flammability range make it extremely easy to ignite. Acetylene is unique in that it does not have a UEL. It is able to support its own combustion without oxygen, and can spontaneously ignite by itself. In the presence of moisture, acetylene can react with copper, silver and mercury to form metallic acetylides that are shock-sensitive, explosive compounds. This presents special hazards in regards to its safe handling.http://www.generalmonitors.com/quickfind/quickfind_gas5.html

The UEL of Acetylene is 80-85% below 15 psig and above 15 psig its UEL is 100%
http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/Acetylene.pdf

http://www.msha.gov/alerts/hazardsofacetylene.htm

Cylinder Safety!

A compressed gas cylinder valve should be secured (closed) when not in use, whether a regulator is attached or not.

If a cylinder is not being used for more than one shift the regulators should be removed and the safety (shipping) caps should be secured to protect the valve.

When you are done using compressed gases the main valves should be secured closed and all residual pressure be relieved from regulators, hoses and torches. All regulator valve stems be backed off and all torch valves secured (closed.)

Not doing any of the above at any time is dangerous!!!

[MoonRise]

MicroZone,

Quick correction on your post #42 above. You typo'd some of the data about acetylene. You have the right data in your post #22 on page one of this thread.

Physical properties of acetylene:

Melting point : -84 C
Boiling point : -83.8 C

Flammability limits for acetylene in air are approx 3% to 82%. So a very wide range there.

An acetylene has a very low energy level needed for ignition. Simple static electricity sparks often have enough energy to ignite an acetylene mixture.

Acetylene is unstable under pressure, and thus is stored and shipped dissolved in acetone. The melting point for acetone is -94.9 C.

Between the acetone melting point (the temperature below which the acetone will turn into a solid) and the boiling point of acetylene (the temperature at which acetylene can be a gas or a liquid, we typically care about the gas phase of acetylene), it is all really-really-really cold. I do not know what the melting point of acetylene dissolved in acetone is, but I'm sure it is also really-really cold.

Pure acetylene is listed as odorless, the characteristic garlic odor in welding-grade acetylene is from impurities.

Acetylene is not a toy or a plaything!

disclaimer: I have done stupid and/or dangerous things in the past. Probably will do more still. But I have all my body parts and they still work, I think with some luck and an on-the-ball guardian angel. Acetylene was not involved.

[William McCormick Jr]

MicroZone,

Quick correction on your post #42 above. You typo'd some of the data about acetylene. You have the right data in your post #22 on page one of this thread.

Physical properties of acetylene:

Melting point : -84 C
Boiling point : -83.8 C

Flammability limits for acetylene in air are approx 3% to 82%. So a very wide range there.

An acetylene has a very low energy level needed for ignition. Simple static electricity sparks often have enough energy to ignite an acetylene mixture.

Acetylene is unstable under pressure, and thus is stored and shipped dissolved in acetone. The melting point for acetone is -94.9 C.

Between the acetone melting point (the temperature below which the acetone will turn into a solid) and the boiling point of acetylene (the temperature at which acetylene can be a gas or a liquid, we typically care about the gas phase of acetylene), it is all really-really-really cold. I do not know what the melting point of acetylene dissolved in acetone is, but I'm sure it is also really-really cold.

Pure acetylene is listed as odorless, the characteristic garlic odor in welding-grade acetylene is from impurities.

Acetylene is not a toy or a plaything!

disclaimer: I have done stupid and/or dangerous things in the past. Probably will do more still. But I have all my body parts and they still work, I think with some luck and an on-the-ball guardian angel. Acetylene was not involved.


Most of that is true. Except for saying that acetylene is unstable under pressure. It is not unstable in its pure state. It is highly stable actually just like hydrogen. It is in a bottle under high pressure.

Today I would be the first to say that there might be contamination in our equipment and supplies. So in that sense yes I agree.

Under pressure if you do not purge your regulator of air, it can detonate. Every time you put your regulator on you are supposed to leave the connection cracked loose. Then crack the valve till you see a needle movement, close, and let that small amount purge the regulator.

You are supposed to do that with all high pressure cylinders. In case there is some debris, it will not shoot into your regulator. Sometimes blowing it up.

If there is something that might detonate it might give you warning. Or help relieve pressure. But you should see it done to understand how tight or loose the connection should be.

I had something shoot once while opening a valve. Scared the heck out of me. Years ago in the gas house they would crack the cylinder once before they give it to you. They had just filled the bottles they knew they were full.

You are actually supposed to purge three times, but lets be real no one cares that much. Most have never seen it done so they do not even know if it is real or feasible. I do it with my high pressure tanks all the time. Especially the 98/2 Argon/Oxygen.

But since this sounds crazy they just omit this operation.

We had an incident years ago where the driver of a propane truck lit his truck on fire after it rolled over. As all good hazardous tank drivers are taught to do if you cannot plug it. He could not plug the hole with the wooden stake kit. It was leaking to much. So he got way back and tossed his road flare.

The psychiatrists claimed he was crazy, and claimed others that said the same were also crazy. The psychiatrists cannot face what it takes to handle safely all these dangerous chemicals.

But for proof that acetylene does not just explode, every time you turn on the tank to an un- pressurized regulator. Acetylene is going from zero to a couple hundred pounds. Certainly at pressures way over 15 psi. And most do not purge their regulators.

You keep the pressure low in the hoses, in case there is air or carbon and water in the hoses. If I have not used a setup for a long while I will open the acetylene valve on the the torch and then open the acetylene tank to purge the hose. Then I do the same for the oxygen.

I once broke the neck off a large full bottle of acetylene in a shop I was working in. It just blows a fog like mist straight up about twenty feet. Onto the buzzing fluorescent lights. You just tell the guys you are working with not to shut anything off and walk quietly out of the shop.

A large piece of metal behind the shear, had fallen and caused a Rub-Gold berg reaction that chopped the neck off the tank. So again we know that you can release it at a bit over fifteen pounds per square inch and it will not definitely explode.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[MicroZone]

We had an incident years ago where the driver of a propane truck lit his truck on fire after it rolled over. As all good hazardous tank drivers are taught to do if you cannot plug it. He could not plug the hole with the wooden stake kit. It was leaking to much. So he got way back and tossed his road flare.

Sincerely,


William McCormick


:laugh: WHAT ?! You're saying Propane truck drivers are taught this?

:laugh: :laugh:

[Joe H]

:laugh: WHAT ?! You're saying Propane truck drivers are taught this?

:laugh: :laugh:

I've seen this too. The propane burning as it leaves the tank is way better than pooling up somewhere.


I'm not too sure I'd want to go strike a lighter next to a leaxing tank though. :)

[weldgault]

I will have to see this in writing, before I'd believe it. John

[Sandy]

I will have to see this in writing, before I'd believe it. John

Wonder how that would be worded? Hand that pamphlet to a driver and run.

The picture of trying to drive a wooden stake in a jagged hole with liquid propane ripping out of there at a couple hundred psi is ugly enough.

That part about "stand way back and chuck a flare" might get a few of us rednecks all exited tho. :laugh:

[weldgault]

I can hope that he is not in my part of NA. John

[Joe H]

I'm not saying that they teach truck drivers to do that. I have seen wrecked tankers being vented and burned off though. They were tanks on train cars, full of isobutane. They decided it was too dangerous to deal with them full, so they were vented and burned off at the site. This was way back when I worked for DOW chemical. They were DOW's tanks.

[weldgault]

Not you Joe, william said that. John

[William McCormick Jr]

:laugh: WHAT ?! You're saying Propane truck drivers are taught this?

:laugh: :laugh:

I would hope so, or you could have the equivalent of a military fuel air explosive. In a residential neighborhood. Especially on a foggy night.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

I'm not saying that they teach truck drivers to do that. I have seen wrecked tankers being vented and burned off though. They were tanks on train cars, full of isobutane. They decided it was too dangerous to deal with them full, so they were vented and burned off at the site. This was way back when I worked for DOW chemical. They were DOW's tanks.

I am saying in our area we were trained by the best. And the best taught us to plug if possible with wooden stake. We were trained by a successful video of the procedure. It was pretty cool. You are supposed to carry suits and face mask and gloves to keep you from freezing.

But it was in fact much easier then we thought. I would definitely try the wooden stake up to a three inch hole. It just goes in and stops about 90 percent of the gas. Two whacks and you could drive it away. The third and it was hermetically sealed. I myself thought the stake could have had a quarter circle deflector to keep it from coming at you. But I could do it with a regular stake.

If you cannot do that you are supposed to light the tanker on fire. For your communities safety. It will create a fuel air type blast and on a foggy night that would probably register on radar and Richter scale instruments around the world.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

I can hope that he is not in my part of NA. John


I guess the other people in NA are real losers and you want to get rid of them with a big gas cloud explosion?

If you light the tankers they just burn off. Even if they blow after they are lit, they just create that rich fireball. Not the electrical, magnetic concussion that might knock down a commercial jet liner flying at 35,000 feet. Level the community and cause millions in sewer repairs, steam lines, gas pipe and water mains.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[fivonut]

As much as I hate to feed Wild Bill's ego, this sounds very similar to experiences I have had using N2O kits on my car. The last time I was at the track it got a little chilly and instead the usual 900-1000 PSI of bottle pressure I see on a warm day I had only 700-800 PSI. I'm not agreeing that a full bottle will lose pressure completely at cold temps but when it's almost empty, you can add a little heat and watch the pressure rise. Now I use a bottle heater to keep the pressure consistently at 900-1000 PSI and it stays right there up til the point that the bottle is empty. My guess is that Wild Bill's bottle's were pretty much cashed and adding a little heat might have peaked the pressure for a short while but it didn't last long.


I think that at those pressures, the acetylene hose can detonate. Even with just air, and certainly with oxygen. So when you have fifty or a hundred feet of hose on reel it might be a problem. Ha-ha.

The best acetylene accident waiting to happen is when it gets cold. If you take a full bottle of acetylene and cool it down to about zero degrees Fahrenheit. Acetylene will not come out.

If you are with a new apprentice and he gets no gas from a cold bottle, he takes the regulator off the bottle. He is cold and angry and does not like that he had to go out and get another bottle. And he leaves the main valve open assuming there is nothing in the tank. I have seen where nothing comes out of a nearly full tank.

An hour later the sun comes out and the tank starts to put out acetylene. Or the tank gets put into the indoor storage rack, from the cold van. Ha-ha. The greatest delay release I ever saw.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Shade Tree Welder]

As much as I hate to feed Wild Bill's ego, this sounds very similar to experiences I have had using N2O kits on my car. The last time I was at the track it got a little chilly and instead the usual 900-1000 PSI of bottle pressure I see on a warm day I had only 700-800 PSI. I'm not agreeing that a full bottle will lose pressure completely at cold temps but when it's almost empty, you can add a little heat and watch the pressure rise. Now I use a bottle heater to keep the pressure consistently at 900-1000 PSI and it stays right there up til the point that the bottle is empty. My guess is that Wild Bill's bottle's were pretty much cashed and adding a little heat might have peaked the pressure for a short while but it didn't last long.

Ideal Gas Law
PV=nRT

Simple as temperature goes down so does pressure. But that does not mean that pressure goes to zero, however pressure would go to zero at the boiling point of Acetylene that was near -80ish° C

[William McCormick Jr]

As much as I hate to feed Wild Bill's ego, this sounds very similar to experiences I have had using N2O kits on my car. The last time I was at the track it got a little chilly and instead the usual 900-1000 PSI of bottle pressure I see on a warm day I had only 700-800 PSI. I'm not agreeing that a full bottle will lose pressure completely at cold temps but when it's almost empty, you can add a little heat and watch the pressure rise. Now I use a bottle heater to keep the pressure consistently at 900-1000 PSI and it stays right there up til the point that the bottle is empty. My guess is that Wild Bill's bottle's were pretty much cashed and adding a little heat might have peaked the pressure for a short while but it didn't last long.


Don't fuel me on, they will start to say that we are both the same person, Ha-ha.

In my day Nitrous Oxide was NO4. No kidding. That is how we bought it, as NO4. We used to bring our tanks in for refrigeration and then they would just suck the liquid into your cold tank.

Do you guys use a separate gas and nitrous oxide solenoid. Or do you compensate with some kind of fuel injector computer controlled system?

We use nitrogen to keep things from oxidizing. In the AC business. Years ago we had nitrogen fire extinguishers.

Somehow I don't see N20 giving you the kind of blast that NO4 does. Ha-ha.

I used to inject the whole giant bottle in 43 seconds. It was just for fun. Not racing.

I had gotten the setup from Scott Shafiroff. He had two NOS systems on a twin engine racing boat. A friend of mine bought it from him and sold it to me.

Today I believe that NOS stands for "Not Otherwise Specified"

Someone that owned the boat wanted even more power and Scott tried to tell him no way, it won't make a difference at those rpms. But the guy was loaded and went for it anyway.

Scott had a cool shop back in the early eighties. I had built him some steel dollies for his race boats.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[offrdfun73]

The NTSB and the DOT DO NOT RECOMEND THAT. In your years and years of work have you ever taken a HAZWOPER training. I have and I had it fo 3 years and all that training says you are a dumb a$$. You really need to take a class on some stuff and learn what you are talking about nut just what you think you saw. I have worked with guys like you befor and I have done my best not to talk to them because they are smarter than every book writen. By the way most if not all propain trucks come with MASHA aproved electric road flares to keep some retard from lighting his truck. The problem with an open flame is the tank gets hoter and hoter causing the presure to rise and eventualy there is a chance the tank will rupture. Case in point. Truck driver falls asleep while driving crashes his truck and causes a fire at a car wash. Heres the kicker the old truck was propain powerd and you guessed it the truck blows and takes out the car wash the truck and 12 unlucky people all because a leaking propain tank got lit. Yes this did happen in the mid eightys in southwest Missouri the the truck sat at my cousins gas station for a few months till the investigation was done and law suits filed. GO AWAY

[Donald Branscom]

Don't even know where to start.

But I will tell this story. A true story.
In Louisiana about 1981 a worker in a ship yard did not take care of his equipment.
an explosion was the result. It killed 18 people because a nearby LPG ship blew up along with everything and of coarse it blew out the glass in houses for a radius of about a mile. So laws were changed and a safety check valve is in the hose of most all new rigs, BUT all the old ones sitting around at private homes etc were not upgraded.

If you see a torch and or regulators being abused and talking to your boss or fellow worker does no good then report it to OSHA. But have your facts straight.
One time i saw torch set being abused by untrained employees at a scrap yard and later i learned that a worker lost an eye and some teeth when a regulator blew up and the handle hit the worker in the face.
I was really mad at myself and have always felt guilty i did not say something.

[fivonut]

Do you guys use a separate gas and nitrous oxide solenoid. Or do you compensate with some kind of fuel injector computer controlled system?

Today I believe that NOS stands for "Not Otherwise Specified"

Let's not take this to far off topic, but I use a "dry" system on an EFI car where a regulator bleeds off a measured amount of N2O to spike the fuel pressure at the factory injectors from about 40PSI to 80PSI for the additional fuel needed.

To me, NOS stands for either "New Old Stock" or "Nitrous Oxide Systems"

Sorry folks, back to your regularly scheduled program.

[fivonut]

Ideal Gas Law
PV=nRT

Simple as temperature goes down so does pressure. But that does not mean that pressure goes to zero, however pressure would go to zero at the boiling point of Acetylene that was near -80ish° C


That's the point I was trying to make, thanks for shortening it up.

[Joe H]

Ideal Gas Law
PV=nRT

Simple as temperature goes down so does pressure. But that does not mean that pressure goes to zero, however pressure would go to zero at the boiling point of Acetylene that was near -80ish° C


I don't think the ideal gas law applies when the gas is dissolved in a liquid.

The acetylene is dissolved in the acetone like CO2 is dissolved in a coke. Low temperatures will increase the solubility, and reduce the amount of gas bubbling out.

It has nothing at all to do with acetylene's or acetone's freezing or boiling points.

[MicroZone]

MSDS procedure for Propane spills:

Extinguishing Media and Fire-Fighting Procedures:

Use water spray to cool fire exposed surfaces and to protect personnel. Shut off fuel to fire if possible to do so without hazard. If a leak or spill has not ignited use water spray to disperse the vapors. Do not extinguish flames at leak because possibility of uncontrolled explosive re-ignition exists. Cut off fuel and/or allow fire to burn out. Extinguish small residual fires with dry chemical powder or water spray. Try to cover liquid spills with foam.

Sorry, I don't see anything about "throwing a flare into the low lying vapors".
:rolleyes:

[William McCormick Jr]

By the way most if not all propain trucks come with MASHA aproved electric road flares to keep some retard from lighting his truck. The problem with an open flame is the tank gets hoter and hoter causing the presure to rise and eventualy there is a chance the tank will rupture.

Once the tank is lit if it ruptures it is really not a big deal. If however you give it five seconds to mix with air before ignition lookout. You will get your blown out windows and mangled sewer pipes.

Did anyone see the pictures of the acetylene plant burning. There were no violent explosions there. Just fire balls. That is how the tanks are designed.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[weldgault]

Jr. since you know so much, why don't you tell us how the tanks were designed. John:blob1:

[William McCormick Jr]

MSDS procedure for Propane spills:

Extinguishing Media and Fire-Fighting Procedures:

Use water spray to cool fire exposed surfaces and to protect personnel. Shut off fuel to fire if possible to do so without hazard. If a leak or spill has not ignited use water spray to disperse the vapors. Do not extinguish flames at leak because possibility of uncontrolled explosive re-ignition exists. Cut off fuel and/or allow fire to burn out. Extinguish small residual fires with dry chemical powder or water spray. Try to cover liquid spills with foam.

Sorry, I don't see anything about "throwing a flare into the low lying vapors".
:rolleyes:


I believe that it depends on the size of the leak and cloud of propane.

Water contains oxygen, 8/1 oxygen/hydrogen by weight. If you mix flammable gas vapor and water vapor, when it lights it might go very fast. I have never tried treating propane fumes with water mist with subsequent detonation. And I do not plan to.

Water mist is used for cooling an already burning lean fire. So that it does not vaporize more of the substance that is burning. You would not mist down a cloud of flammable propane that is not burning, for any reason at all that I know of.

Unless someone has information that water can create a solution with propane and render it less dangerous. I have no information about this. However I suspect that it does not work that way. And even if it does you, would have to know the size of the propane cloud before you could determine if it was a good or bad idea.

I think when they say hose down a leak they are talking about a 2 or 3 inch low pressure gas line leaking. Sure any motion in the area will disperse that.


Good firemen did a lot of work to show how firemen's hose water was the culprit in massive fireball explosions of paint factories and industries that stored certain types of solvents. When the firemen would just spray in water in a stream. It would combine with the paints and solvents and blow up. Blow out windows and walls.

But if they could systematically cool the fire at the ceiling with mist they could often get in to rescue someone. But it was still a gamble.

Without the heat at the ceiling the flammable substances cooled down and did not get so violent. But this will not work in every situation. That is why you really have to know what water is doing to a fire.

To do this the firemen have to stay on the ground, because of the steam released. It is the energy of turning water into steam that cools down the room. But that steam can be 800+ degrees and cook you even through some fire fighting equipment.

In that video of the acetylene plant on fire it looked like firemen were trying to use water on a hot rich acetylene fire, and it backfired on them. It created more heat and a hotter burn. As it should.

When they say do not put out a fire from a leak. They are saying that it is safer to let it burn by actual experience then putting it out. When a propane tanker is overturned and has a battery system, computers and all kinds of electronic equipment on board. It was deemed a better idea to light it up. Then let it leak.

Look at the number of gasoline fires in cars on the road. Started by such a wild array of different things. No one can say it is better to just let the truck leak out and hope it does not ignite later.

When you can guarantee at worst the truck will pop much like the little pops at the acetylene plant fire on that video.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Jr. since you know so much, why don't you tell us how the tanks were designed. John:blob1:

They usually blow out the top. But not always. Some just blow.

The tanks quickly release the acetylene and burn it. Rather safely.

My brothers plant had a similar accident years ago. The fire was started by a diesel fuel pump bearing, that turned the pump into a flame thrower. It ignited the storage area for the acetylene tanks. They started to go one by one. Some blew the tanks apart, most blew out the top.

But these are not what you call extreme types of explosions in any way, that is really more of a violent burn.

If you allow a propane tanker to drain off for 5-10 minutes and then it ignites, you may lose a good portion of your town. It depends on wind and humidity and things like that.

But if you taught everyone about this, they could of course have a weapon for all seasons and all weather conditions.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Donald Branscom]

how dangerous is it if someone runs too much pressure? I noticed a coworker whose cutting outfit had a broken acetelyne pressure guage on his regulator today. I fixed it, but was wondering if anyone knows definitively from experience what can happen, and how much is too much?

This is the original post, (thread starter.) I was not thread jacking I don't believe. I do not know where the nitous oxide thing started.

[William McCormick Jr]

This is the original post, (thread starter.) I was not thread jacking I don't believe. I do not know where the nitous oxide thing started.

I would say that it just increases the chance of an explosion. But does not stop the chance of an explosion either. I have seen it high in the red twenty times in my life.

Did anyone here ever have the opportunity when they stop TIG welding aluminum to see, on a humid day the carbon from dunking, on the aluminum you are welding burn off all by itself when the backup gas is removed? It is weird but educational.

I am sure that is why you get your chimney cleaned.

The same thing can happen inside your hoses. No matter the pressure. The best way to stop accidents is to keep your torch tip clean. If it does not clog and back fire, there will be less chance of carbon getting into your torch and hoses.

I had a great little torch.

One time I clogged the tip, I could not find the tip cleaner so I just rubbed it lit a couple times on piece of steel. It started popping and hissing, and just did not burn right. I could feel the gases detonating inside the torch handle.

So I put a new tip on and the new tip started to mess up right away. I looked inside the torch and I had carbon build up. It has never been the same.

I have to get some pipe cleaners and clean it up.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[slamdvw]

wow... from acetylene to NOS to chimneys... where will the madness end?

[browny]

Water contains oxygen, 8/1 oxygen/hydrogen by weight. If you mix flammable gas vapor and water vapor, when it lights it might go very fast. I have never tried treating propane fumes with water mist with subsequent detonation. And I do not plan to.

??? burning water, please explain? As far as I know, water is already 'burnt' ie you would have to reverse the Oxygen Hydrogen oxidation reaction to liberate H2 and O2 molecules to get something to burn (eg electrolysis or some other funky chemical reaction. This would be an endothermic reaction which would consume energy). In fact, water (and CO2) is the result of combusting most organic compounds.

A steam 'explosion' I can understand (ie rapid volume increase due to change of state).

[daddy]

WOW! I pretty much had my questions answered after John posted his separate thread ( thanks again John). Now I'm just coming back for the entertainment value. You don't have to clean your chimney if you just burn it really hot.:laugh: :laugh:

[weldgault]

I think Jr. is full of B.S. and this is what I think of his answers. :dizzy:

[William McCormick Jr]

??? burning water, please explain? As far as I know, water is already 'burnt' ie you would have to reverse the Oxygen Hydrogen oxidation reaction to liberate H2 and O2 molecules to get something to burn (eg electrolysis or some other funky chemical reaction. This would be an endothermic reaction which would consume energy). In fact, water (and CO2) is the result of combusting most organic compounds.

A steam 'explosion' I can understand (ie rapid volume increase due to change of state).

Powdered carbon can reach super temperatures at the surface. At those temperatures certainly water can be separated into its components hydrogen and oxygen. And they in turn will recombine and burn at very high temperatures.

In fact if the carbon becomes a liquid from the hydrogen and oxygen burning then you could even get ARC (Anode, Rectified, Cathode) reactions. I love ARC.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Joe H]

I love ARC.





That would be acid, rolls, and cocaine, right?

[William McCormick Jr]

That's the point I was trying to make, thanks for shortening it up.

And again at minus seven degrees with a mix of acetylene and acetone, in a plumbers tank. What temperature might it reach in a minute of boil off, in a windy alley way?

I know it is enough to fool two old timers into thinking the tank was empty. I had the valve open with no regulator on the tank just to see if the regulator was bad. Nothing came out to my human perceptions.

Anyone that tried the valve would say "someone left this empty tank open"

You are not supposed to leave them open when they are empty.


I am not asking you to believe me. But unless you have some sort of proof that either the mechanics of refrigeration do not take place to acetylene and acetone. Then please stat it like you just believe because you believe.

Does anyone here know what happens to acetone when it is boiled off at those low temperatures. That might explain what I am talking about.

I am just sharing with you something that happened to us. I gave the temperature of the day and the fact that the tank let no perceivable amount of gas out with the valve open and the regulator off the tank. After it was inside a 50 degree room.

As I mentioned the refrigeration effect of boil off must be very good for some reason at those temperatures. I would like to know what the boiling point of acetone and acetylene together is. Or how many BTU's this mix absorbs at lower temperatures. This might explain it.

Others keep posting acetylenes boiling point, they do not talk about acetone and acetylenes boiling point. In a "B" tank mix. I know it changes things for sure. I could not believe it when the empty tank had pressure in it later on, and was half full. The tank I had wide open with no regulator on for about 30 seconds. Knowing it was empty.

I could have left it open. Could you imagine a new guy, a young kid.

I know refrigeration, and acetylene from working with it for forty years. Someone new would have said "empty" and left it just like that.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Joe H]

The acetone doesn't boil. The acetylene just bubbles out until the acetone goes "flat". Just like seltzer water, soda, and beer have CO2 bubbling out.

As temperature decreases the solubility of the acetylene in the acetone increases. It is the same anytime a gas is dissolved in a liquid. Cold water will hold alot more oxygen than warm water. A hot coke will fizz alot harder than a cold one, etc...

[William McCormick Jr]

The acetone doesn't boil. The acetylene just bubbles out until the acetone goes "flat". Just like seltzer water, soda, and beer have CO2 bubbling out.

As temperature decreases the solubility of the acetylene in the acetone increases. It is the same anytime a gas is dissolved in a liquid. Cold water will hold alot more oxygen than warm water. A hot coke will fizz alot harder than a cold one, etc...

That was good. Good analogies, very good analogies. You are awake my friend.

Thank You.

I admit I had some trouble figuring out why or how it took place. But there was no doubt what happened.

After the fact it sent shivers through my spine. I just wanted to share it before someone took down a building.

I grew up with a tank in the garage. With me in the garage filling helium balloons to bring weapons to GI Joe. And making hot air balloons with cleaning bags, and metal caps of burning fluid. As well as making asphalt detonators.

I would notice the gauge on the acetylene tank go up and down. As it was cold and later got hot when I would leave the door to the garage open to warm it up. I believe it was this, that made me close the valve that day. Just in case.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

That would be acid, rolls, and cocaine, right?


No, the big white flashes the lightning bolts.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Alan N]

I claimed exactly what I claimed and I am right because I was there.

Billy Mac you are one dangerous sack of BS!! The only place you have been is out to lunch, dreaming up the fantasy tales of yours.

I've been cutting at well below 0°F. I've had welders preheating structure at close to -20°F. NEVER have we seen a tank that was full fail to release acetylene at those temperatures. The tank gauge will read a bit lower but nowhere near enough to indicate no pressure. As others have noted, the freeze points of both acetylene and acetone are far lower than any temperature we can tolerate to work in.

You are a BS artist, plain and simple(REAL heavy on the simple). The stuff you spout is going to get somebody hurt because they didn't know better than to believe you. Best thing that could happen here is for the administrator to get a sack and send you packing.

[ShieldArc]

Why is it that in the winter when you pick up a new flat top acetylene bottle there is about a half teaspoon of antifreeze in the valve?

[Shade Tree Welder]

Billy Mac you are one dangerous sack of BS!! The only place you have been is out to lunch, dreaming up the fantasy tales of yours.

I've been cutting at well below 0°F. I've had welders preheating structure at close to -20°F. NEVER have we seen a tank that was full fail to release acetylene at those temperatures. The tank gauge will read a bit lower but nowhere near enough to indicate no pressure. As others have noted, the freeze points of both acetylene and acetone are far lower than any temperature we can tolerate to work in.

You are a BS artist, plain and simple(REAL heavy on the simple). The stuff you spout is going to get somebody hurt because they didn't know better than to believe you. Best thing that could happen here is for the administrator to get a sack and send you packing.Yup, I would agree!!!

[AnotherDano]

I hate to do this, but there comes a time when enough is enough...................

This message is hidden because William McCormick Jr is on your ignore list.

[William McCormick Jr]

Billy Mac you are one dangerous sack of BS!! The only place you have been is out to lunch, dreaming up the fantasy tales of yours.

I've been cutting at well below 0°F. I've had welders preheating structure at close to -20°F. NEVER have we seen a tank that was full fail to release acetylene at those temperatures. The tank gauge will read a bit lower but nowhere near enough to indicate no pressure. As others have noted, the freeze points of both acetylene and acetone are far lower than any temperature we can tolerate to work in.

You are a BS artist, plain and simple(REAL heavy on the simple). The stuff you spout is going to get somebody hurt because they didn't know better than to believe you. Best thing that could happen here is for the administrator to get a sack and send you packing.

You were cutting with a "B" tank of dissolved acetylene?

I have a cutting setup with a "B" tank so I know it is possible. You just need the special adapter.

I use it like a portable system. But normally even on the road I take the larger system.

For outside or outdoor use your supplier may supply non- dissolved acetylene.

I sit around dreaming?

You could not know I sit around dreaming from what I wrote. Because it is dead on accurate. So it is you that has already said something that is untrue or from a dream land.

And that catch phrase "what you said is going to get someone hurt" is really just too comical. Someone like you is going to hinder others from getting to the truth. And that could lead to someone getting hurt.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Shade Tree Welder]

For outside or outdoor use your supplier may supply non- dissolved acetylene.
Mr. McCormick,

I am completely unfamiliar with non-dissolved acetylene. How is it containerized and what pressures is it supplied in?

[William McCormick Jr]

Billy Mac you are one dangerous sack of BS!! The only place you have been is out to lunch, dreaming up the fantasy tales of yours.

I've been cutting at well below 0°F. I've had welders preheating structure at close to -20°F. NEVER have we seen a tank that was full fail to release acetylene at those temperatures. The tank gauge will read a bit lower but nowhere near enough to indicate no pressure. As others have noted, the freeze points of both acetylene and acetone are far lower than any temperature we can tolerate to work in.

You are a BS artist, plain and simple(REAL heavy on the simple). The stuff you spout is going to get somebody hurt because they didn't know better than to believe you. Best thing that could happen here is for the administrator to get a sack and send you packing.


Lets for a minute get really crazy, it is easy for me, Ha-ha.

And take your advice, you are guaranteeing that the bottle of acetylene will noticeably spew acetylene at the temperatures and wind chill I described. So someone that opens the valve on a tank can safely leave it open according to you.

I on the other hand had two old timers observe a bottle as empty. With no regulator on the bottle, it gave no acetylene at all.

Yet crazy me, I closed it because I could not calculate the amount of refrigeration effect at those temperatures. Just in case I and the other fellow were wrong, I closed it.

Yet I am the one that is going to get someone killed? When you have told others to do the dangerous thing. And you do not know how much acetone is in my tank or yours.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[fivonut]

So someone that opens the valve on a tank can safely leave it open according to you.

No body should EVER do that regardless of the temperature of conditions.

[William McCormick Jr]

Mr. McCormick,

I am completely unfamiliar with non-dissolved acetylene. How is it containerized and what pressures is it supplied in?

It seems like today they call it all dissolved.

However as some have mentioned their tanks are outside and they have cut at extremely low temperatures. I have friends that do the same all the time.

I can with the larger torch on very cold days cut as well. But I have not with the same wind chill in an alley.

I have to assume that their tanks do not have the same proportions of acetone as my supplier puts in them. Or they are over or understating their temperatures.

Or I have understated the windchill, or someone has assumed that the windchill in the alley way would not create what I said it will.

My tanks have the right pressures at 70 degrees Fahrenheit even the "B" tanks. So I must assume that their tanks have less acetone or no acetone. Or they are not working at as low a temperature.

I have knocked the valves off the larger acetylene tanks and they have high pressure in them. It did not explode by actual experience.

Because as I said our tanks in the windy alley way just quit on us. Showed zero pressure from an open main valve. And then later came back up to pressure.

But consider this there is cement, sand, and asbestos inside some of the tanks. All those substances contain oxygen, different companies use different substances.

Sand has oxygen attached to it. So the acetone is there to absorb any of the oxygen in the tank.

That means that you have to wet the tank surface for sure. How much more you need or want I do not know. But the suppliers probably think better safe then sorry.

I was told that they had undissolved acetylene. But that in our area we use dissolved acetylene. That is all I can say about it actually. It was when I was learning about it as a kid.

I am not arguing or doubting anyone. I take it all in compare it to what I have done. And only if I get a conflict do I mention it. I have a conflict about saying that acetylene is good at 7 degrees Fahrenheit in a windy alleyway.




Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Mr. McCormick,

I am completely unfamiliar with non-dissolved acetylene. How is it containerized and what pressures is it supplied in?

Well I have seen empty tanks of acetylene and they did not have any noticeable amount of acetone in them. So their idea of absorbed, and mine might be two different things.

As I said I know they must coat the cement with acetone. But I do not know if they actually create a soda type of mix in the bottle between the acetone and the acetylene.

But I also do not know, if after mixing the two substances, if they take on some new weird properties. Maybe it only takes a little acetone to mix with the acetylene.

A friend of mine a compressor expert, actually held a Plexiglas see through container of acetylene and he said under pressure it is more like a white ball of plasma, rather then a liquid. He got me to shake my own tank. And it does have a light kind of weird feeling. But I have never seen it inside a Plexiglas container.

I would like to though.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Alan N]

Lets for a minute get really crazy, it is easy for me, Ha-ha.

And take your advice, you are guaranteeing that the bottle of acetylene will noticeably spew acetylene at the temperatures and wind chill I described. So someone that opens the valve on a tank can safely leave it open according to you.

You better show me where I said anything about leaving a tank open, Mr. BS!

Also, in your ramblings about "wind chill",,, Wind velocity has absolutely ZERO bearing on an object that is not actively being warmed. An inert body will only cool to the temperature of the ambient air. Look it up!

Once again you are spoutiong nonsense about keeping others from learning "the truth as babbled by Billy Mac. How can it be that you are the only one who knows all this crap?

Also,, I did not say anyone was using a B tank to cut on a cold day. Rarely do you see B tanks on sites without a plumber in evidence.

In case you haven't noticed, it is generally accpeted that the crap you go on about has some pretty dangerous possibilities for anyone foolish enough to believe it.

[zapster]

It seems like today they call it all dissolved.

However as some have mentioned their tanks are outside and they have cut at extremely low temperatures. I have friends that do the same all the time.

I can with the larger torch on very cold days cut as well. But I have not with the same wind chill in an alley.

I have to assume that their tanks do not have the same proportions of acetone as my supplier puts in them. Or they are over or understating their temperatures.

Or I have understated the windchill, or someone has assumed that the windchill in the alley way would not create what I said it will.

My tanks have the right pressures at 70 degrees Fahrenheit even the "B" tanks. So I must assume that their tanks have less acetone or no acetone. Or they are not working at as low a temperature.

I have knocked the valves off the larger acetylene tanks and they have high pressure in them. It did not explode by actual experience.

Because as I said our tanks in the windy alley way just quit on us. Showed zero pressure from an open main valve. And then later came back up to pressure.

But consider this there is cement, sand, and asbestos inside some of the tanks. All those substances contain oxygen, different companies use different substances.

Sand has oxygen attached to it. So the acetone is there to absorb any of the oxygen in the tank.

That means that you have to wet the tank surface for sure. How much more you need or want I do not know. But the suppliers probably think better safe then sorry.

I was told that they had undissolved acetylene. But that in our area we use dissolved acetylene. That is all I can say about it actually. It was when I was learning about it as a kid.

I am not arguing or doubting anyone. I take it all in compare it to what I have done. And only if I get a conflict do I mention it. I have a conflict about saying that acetylene is good at 7 degrees Fahrenheit in a windy alleyway.




Sincerely,


William McCormick





How the fu(k does sand and concrete get into a tank????

Now I've read everything..:rolleyes:

...zap!

[William McCormick Jr]

How the fu(k does sand and concrete get into a tank????

Now I've read everything..:rolleyes:

...zap!

I have no idea. And I have not had the courage to cut one apart to be honest with you. But that is what the manufacturer claims is in the tank. Different manufacturers claim different things.

I bet the guys at Gershaw scrap yard have cut them up. Next time I am there I will ask them.

I also welded a giant 3/4" chain, garden ornament for the owner of another scrap yard near me, they would probably know for sure what is in them. It took me two days of straight TIG welding the links together.

I have hit the empty acetylene tanks and they do have a dead ring to them. Like the walls are padded with something other then metal. Tap one on the ground gently, you do not get that harmonic like you would from a 40 cubic foot argon or helium tank. I do not recommend dropping them hard either.

But you know if there is cement in there, there is oxygen in there. And that is what the acetone is for. To absorb any oxygen. Acetone is a very rich fuel that requires a lot of oxygen. Very much like acetylene.

Oxygen and acetylene when mixed together become sound and vibration sensitive. My guess is cement is in there because they have trouble keeping the acetylene pure. And the tanks free from oxidation.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[denrep]

... My guess is cement is in there because they have trouble keeping the acetylene pure...

I've seen that filler. I don't know if it's cement, but it does look like lava rock or air-entrained concrete. Maybe it's sea-foam!

[William McCormick Jr]

You better show me where I said anything about leaving a tank open, Mr. BS!

Also, in your ramblings about "wind chill",,, Wind velocity has absolutely ZERO bearing on an object that is not actively being warmed. An inert body will only cool to the temperature of the ambient air. Look it up!

Once again you are spoutiong nonsense about keeping others from learning "the truth as babbled by Billy Mac. How can it be that you are the only one who knows all this crap?

Also,, I did not say anyone was using a B tank to cut on a cold day. Rarely do you see B tanks on sites without a plumber in evidence.

In case you haven't noticed, it is generally accpeted that the crap you go on about has some pretty dangerous possibilities for anyone foolish enough to believe it.

You said if no acetylene comes out of a tank on a day with an actual temperature at the time, of about seven degrees, that it is empty, regardless of windchill.

If it is empty as you are so sure of. There is no real danger of leaving it open is there? No more then a loosely capped can of acetone.

Because someone has taken your advice that it is definitely empty. Like in a scrap yard, before they dispose of the tanks on a seven degree day. They could create a terrible explosion.

Have you been in an alley way on a cold day when wind is blowing quickly through the alleyway? It gets really cold. So cold you cannot take your hands out of your pockets for more then ten seconds.

Windchill effects any surface that can hold some moisture. The paint on the tanks can hold some moisture.

The sock that you put on a thermometer, to check the windchill is there to hold whatever moisture is in the air. In the city you always have some moisture from all the cars and heating equipment. It can get insanely cold in an alleyway.

I will tell you something else, that I know from years and years of working with compressed gases, liquefied gases and flammable gases.

When you are using a torch with a regulator and you take off the regulator there is always more pressure in the tank.

What actually alerted me to something being wrong that day in the alley. Was that although the torch was unusable at such a low pressure. There should still have been a reasonably higher tank pressure in the tank.

Yet even after the bottle spent time in the 50 degree work area inside. When I cracked the tank valve with no regulator it did not give me that reserve pressure. Therefore I knew that there was some kind of refrigeration effect taking place. So I closed the tank to be safe.

If I had not, at least a half tank of acetylene could have escaped into the tool storage area of the work sight.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

You better show me where I said anything about leaving a tank open, Mr. BS!

Also, in your ramblings about "wind chill",,, Wind velocity has absolutely ZERO bearing on an object that is not actively being warmed. An inert body will only cool to the temperature of the ambient air. Look it up!

Once again you are spoutiong nonsense about keeping others from learning "the truth as babbled by Billy Mac. How can it be that you are the only one who knows all this crap?

Also,, I did not say anyone was using a B tank to cut on a cold day. Rarely do you see B tanks on sites without a plumber in evidence.

In case you haven't noticed, it is generally accpeted that the crap you go on about has some pretty dangerous possibilities for anyone foolish enough to believe it.

You said if no acetylene comes out of a tank on a day with an actual temperature at the time, of about seven degrees, that it is empty, regardless of windchill.

If it is empty as you are so sure of. There is no real danger of leaving it open is there? No more then a loosely capped can of acetone.

Because someone has taken your advice that it is definitely empty. Like in a scrap yard, before they dispose of the tanks on a seven degree day. They could create a terrible explosion.

Have you been in an alley way on a cold day when wind is blowing quickly through the alleyway? It gets really cold. So cold you cannot take your hands out of your pockets for more then ten seconds.

Windchill effects any surface that can hold some moisture. The paint on the tanks can hold some moisture.

The sock that you put on a thermometer, to check the windchill is there to hold whatever moisture is in the air. In the city you always have some moisture from all the cars and heating equipment. It can get insanely cold in an alleyway.

I will tell you something else, that I know from years and years of working with compressed gases, liquefied gases and flammable gases.

When you are using a torch with a regulator and you take off the regulator there is always more pressure in the tank.

What actually alerted me to something being wrong that day in the alley. Was that although the torch was unusable at such a low pressure. There should still have been a reasonably higher tank pressure in the tank.

Yet even after the bottle spent time in the 50 degree work area inside. When I cracked the tank valve with no regulator it did not give me that reserve pressure. Therefore I knew that there was some kind of refrigeration effect taking place. So I closed the tank to be safe.

If I had not, at least a half tank of acetylene could have escaped into the tool storage area of the work sight.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[slamdvw]

It just gets better and better...

[weldgault]

I have no idea. And I have not had the courage to cut one apart to be honest with you. But that is what the manufacturer claims is in the tank. Different manufacturers claim different things.

I bet the guys at Gershaw scrap yard have cut them up. Next time I am there I will ask them.

I also welded a giant 3/4" chain, garden ornament for the owner of another scrap yard near me, they would probably know for sure what is in them. It took me two days of straight TIG welding the links together.

I have hit the empty acetylene tanks and they do have a dead ring to them. Like the walls are padded with something other then metal. Tap one on the ground gently, you do not get that harmonic like you would from a 40 cubic foot argon or helium tank. I do not recommend dropping them hard either.

But you know if there is cement in there, there is oxygen in there. And that is what the acetone is for. To absorb any oxygen. Acetone is a very rich fuel that requires a lot of oxygen. Very much like acetylene.

Oxygen and acetylene when mixed together become sound and vibration sensitive. My guess is cement is in there because they have trouble keeping the acetylene pure. And the tanks free from oxidation.


Sincerely,


William McCormick


William, I don't know why you are still filling some with your B.S., The filler in acetylene cylinder , is a very pourus material and each one of the cavaties holds Acetone and it absorbs acetylene to the tune of 25 times its volume, as it is being filled. It releases the acetylene at 1/7th its contense per hour. It does not mix with acetylene gas. the gas is absorbed by the acetone and released as needed. With all your experience, you should not speak and mislead someone with a subject you are not capable to answer. John

[Alan N]

OK, Billy Mac,, once again you are displaying just how little you really know.

Judging a tank to be empty and advocating leaving it valved open are two different things entirely. At no point did I advocate nor imply that it was acceptable to leave a tank valved open. Get your BS straight if you're going to accuse me of something.

You also aren't bright enough to understand the difference between evaporative cooling and windchill. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!! Got that? Try to keep it straight, this may get a little complicated for you.

That thermometer with a sock on it is called a sling psygrometer(sp) and it is used as the wet bulb half of a dual bulb thermometer to measure RELATIVE HUMIDITY, not windchill. And the sock is not to hold atmospheric moisture, it is moistened so that it will provide evaporative cooling. The difference between the dry side and wet side can be charted to give relative humidity.

Windchill does not apply to inanimate objects once they reach the temperature of the surrounding air (spare me the BS about the paint holding moisture enough to be a factor). Windchill is just a number that compares the heat loss of a warm object in moving air as compared to still air. Try to stay with me now,, a warm engine will cool faster in the wind than in still air but it will never get any colder than the actual air temperature. Your hands, in that windy alley are subject to windchill, hence they feel colder than if the wind was not blowing.

I know this may be hard for you to understand but that is just because you're a BOZO!!! There is no government plot to keep things secret, you are not blessed with being the only one allowed to know the secrets of the universe. You are also not generally acknowledged as being a source of viable information.

[Shade Tree Welder]

OK, Billy Mac,, once again you are displaying just how little you really know.

Judging a tank to be empty and advocating leaving it valved open are two different things entirely. At no point did I advocate nor imply that it was acceptable to leave a tank valved open. Get your BS straight if you're going to accuse me of something.

You also aren't bright enough to understand the difference between evaporative cooling and windchill. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!! Got that? Try to keep it straight, this may get a little complicated for you.

That thermometer with a sock on it is called a sling psygrometer(sp) and it is used as the wet bulb half of a dual bulb thermometer to measure RELATIVE HUMIDITY, not windchill. And the sock is not to hold atmospheric moisture, it is moistened so that it will provide evaporative cooling. The difference between the dry side and wet side can be charted to give relative humidity.
Yup 100% correct.

Windchill does not apply to inanimate objects once they reach the temperature of the surrounding air (spare me the BS about the paint holding moisture enough to be a factor). Windchill is just a number that compares the heat loss of a warm object in moving air as compared to still air. Try to stay with me now,, a warm engine will cool faster in the wind than in still air but it will never get any colder than the actual air temperature. Your hands, in that windy alley are subject to windchill, hence they feel colder than if the wind was not blowing.Just a little minor clarification.

And engine will cool faster in a wind than in still air but that is not "wind chill". Any moving fluid will be more effiecient in cooling than a non moving fluild. Basic thermodynamics.

Wind Chill Temperature

Is the cooling effect of wind on exposed skin.
The formula to compute Wind Chill:
Wind chill temperature = 35.74 + 0.6215T - 35.75V (**0.16) + 0.4275TV(**0.16)

Where V is the wind speed in statute miles per hour
T is the temperature in degrees Fahrenheit.
Wind chill factor was determined by the military post WWII, to aid in potentially fighting a war in colder climates (Siberia).

I know this may be hard for you to understand but that is just because you're a BOZO!!! There is no government plot to keep things secret, you are not blessed with being the only one allowed to know the secrets of the universe. You are also not generally acknowledged as being a source of viable information.Yup you are 100% correct again.

[William McCormick Jr]

OK, Billy Mac,, once again you are displaying just how little you really know.

Judging a tank to be empty and advocating leaving it valved open are two different things entirely. At no point did I advocate nor imply that it was acceptable to leave a tank valved open. Get your BS straight if you're going to accuse me of something.

You also aren't bright enough to understand the difference between evaporative cooling and windchill. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!! Got that? Try to keep it straight, this may get a little complicated for you.

That thermometer with a sock on it is called a sling psygrometer(sp) and it is used as the wet bulb half of a dual bulb thermometer to measure RELATIVE HUMIDITY, not windchill. And the sock is not to hold atmospheric moisture, it is moistened so that it will provide evaporative cooling. The difference between the dry side and wet side can be charted to give relative humidity.

Windchill does not apply to inanimate objects once they reach the temperature of the surrounding air (spare me the BS about the paint holding moisture enough to be a factor). Windchill is just a number that compares the heat loss of a warm object in moving air as compared to still air. Try to stay with me now,, a warm engine will cool faster in the wind than in still air but it will never get any colder than the actual air temperature. Your hands, in that windy alley are subject to windchill, hence they feel colder than if the wind was not blowing.

I know this may be hard for you to understand but that is just because you're a BOZO!!! There is no government plot to keep things secret, you are not blessed with being the only one allowed to know the secrets of the universe. You are also not generally acknowledged as being a source of viable information.

Ok lets take a look at the humidity checking device. Now it is not made of skin is it? No it is not.

I swing it around and it lowers the temperature of the thermometer. And will maintain that lowered temperature.

We are talking about a standard thermometer. Nothing skin like, no moisture on it. Just a thermometer and something that can hold ambient moisture the sock. We don't add moisture to the sock as you mentioned. The reason is it has to measure the moisture in the atmosphere.

Yet it lowers the temperature of the skinles, human less bulb. Continuously drains heat from it. As long as you keep it moving. Imagine a whistling wind in the Brooklyn alleyway.

In Brooklyn, on a day with the current temperature of 7 degrees. In an alleyway with a strong constant wind. It makes acetylene stop coming out of the tank. In about a minute, under these conditions. A good new tank of acetylene can give no gas. Even when the regulator is removed.

I will go as far as to say that the tank may actually suck in air under these conditions. If the tank is opened without the regulator.

This should be tested and documented. It is very real. We had a plant in New Jersey blow up recently during an extreme cold spell. Here in New York we are not allowed to manufacture it.

In my book the humidity checker does in fact measure wind chill.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Alan N]

In my book the humidity checker does in fact measure wind chill.

Obviously there is only one copy of "your book", the rest of us deal with reality

[William McCormick Jr]

And engine will cool faster in a wind than in still air but that is not "wind chill". Any moving fluid will be more effiecient in cooling than a non moving fluild. Basic thermodynamics.


No the humidity checking device does not need to be wet. It works dry or with the humidity in the air.

That is how it measures the humidity, by using the windchill to determine how much humidity is in the air.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Obviously there is only one copy of "your book", the rest of us deal with reality


Alan maybe you could go to your book and enlighten me. Tell me how your book explains the movement of the humidity checker and its relevance to the temperature and humidity?

We used them in class and we did not wet the sock because it would give you a very high humidity reading. Also you would not be able to maintain with any scientific accuracy the proper amount of moisture by adding it to the sock. It would always be equalizing to ambient humidity rather then using ambient humidity and maintaining a constant.

You want to rely on the moisture in the atmosphere to cause the cooling effect. And it does.

It is like on damp days. In a wind on a damp day it is very cold. It is more then evaporative cooling, if by that term you mean that the humidity is there and then evaporates once.

It is windchill. Air is compressed nearing the surface of an object it gives off heat into the air. Then its velocity increases causing a lack of pressure and this takes heat away from an object. The more moisture the better it works.

The material sock on the humidity checker, offers an excellent surface for air to compress and then decompress.





Sincerely,


William McCormick

[oompa_loompa]

Willy Nilly - where have you been? I found the oompa powered perpetual plane!!

Here in Oompa Loompa land, we don't have weather. :)

[William McCormick Jr]

OK, Billy Mac,, once again you are displaying just how little you really know.

Judging a tank to be empty and advocating leaving it valved open are two different things entirely. At no point did I advocate nor imply that it was acceptable to leave a tank valved open. Get your BS straight if you're going to accuse me of something.

You also aren't bright enough to understand the difference between evaporative cooling and windchill. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!! Got that? Try to keep it straight, this may get a little complicated for you.

That thermometer with a sock on it is called a sling psygrometer(sp) and it is used as the wet bulb half of a dual bulb thermometer to measure RELATIVE HUMIDITY, not windchill. And the sock is not to hold atmospheric moisture, it is moistened so that it will provide evaporative cooling. The difference between the dry side and wet side can be charted to give relative humidity.

Windchill does not apply to inanimate objects once they reach the temperature of the surrounding air (spare me the BS about the paint holding moisture enough to be a factor). Windchill is just a number that compares the heat loss of a warm object in moving air as compared to still air. Try to stay with me now,, a warm engine will cool faster in the wind than in still air but it will never get any colder than the actual air temperature. Your hands, in that windy alley are subject to windchill, hence they feel colder than if the wind was not blowing.

I know this may be hard for you to understand but that is just because you're a BOZO!!! There is no government plot to keep things secret, you are not blessed with being the only one allowed to know the secrets of the universe. You are also not generally acknowledged as being a source of viable information.


I am in the scrap yard it is seven degrees out, the old acetylene tanks from a closed down factory, have been in whistling winds amongst the scrap overnight.

They open the tanks one by one and they bleed off for about a minute but not with any great amount of pressure. They stop. Almost seems like they are sucking in air.

We know Alan N. And he says no problem if it is not minus 83 degrees they are empty baby. So off they go to the super crusher.

I might if I had not lived through this, had sided with you on some points, but after seeing this personally I can tell you we are lead by a bunch of nuts.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[oompa_loompa]

Willy can you please come fix our reverse osmosis chocolate filter? Please?

[zapster]

Can we please put a "clamp" on this thread!!!!!..

This stupidity has gone on long enough..:rolleyes:

And I think we all know where it's coming from...

...zap!

[jamlit]

I spent an hour trying to find something to support this magic tool of yours william. I deal with humidity checkers all the time and they all use a wet bulb and a dry dulb. The wet bulb is wet not dry. We also have some eletronic wet bulb readers now and they work very well. According to everything I could find, wind chill is a calculation drived from freezing water.

I think this thread has run it's course and we all need to step back and let it go. If we don't agree on something, then we need to agree to disagree.

[Alan N]

Not quite a book, but it was the best I coudl find quickly. It did come from a .gov site so it's probably part of the conspiracy to keep us in the dark.




Weather Instruments to Make
Sling Psychrometer
Relative humidity can be measured by an instrument called a hygrometer. The simplest hygrometer - a sling psychrometer - consists of two thermometers mounted together with a handle attached on a chain. One thermometer is ordinary. The other has a cloth wick over its bulb and is called a wet-bulb thermometer.

When a reading is to be taken, the wick is first dipped in water and then the instrument is whirled around. During the whirling, the water evaporates from the wick, cooling the wet-bulb thermometer. Then the temperatures of both thermometers are read.

If the surrounding air is dry, more moisture evaporates from the wick, cooling the wet-bulb thermometer more so there is a greater difference between the temperatures of the two thermometers. If the surrounding air is holding as much moisture as possible - if the relative humidity is 100% - there is no difference between the two temperatures. Meteorologists have worked out charts of these differences for each degree of temperature so that the observer can find relative humidity easily. A sample is shown below:

Partial Relative Humidity Chart for 30° C Difference Between
Dry Bulb and Wet Bulb
Temperatures Relative Humidity
None 100%
0.5° 96%
1.0° 93%
1.5° 89%
9.0° 44%
9.5° 42%
14.5° 19%
15.0° 17%
18.0° 5%

[William McCormick Jr]

Willy can you please come fix our reverse osmosis chocolate filter? Please?

It is probably the water in the strawberries.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Willy can you please come fix our reverse osmosis chocolate filter? Please?

Brandy, olive oil, and even grape seed oil does not fix it.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Not quite a book, but it was the best I coudl find quickly. It did come from a .gov site so it's probably part of the conspiracy to keep us in the dark.




Weather Instruments to Make
Sling Psychrometer
Relative humidity can be measured by an instrument called a hygrometer. The simplest hygrometer - a sling psychrometer - consists of two thermometers mounted together with a handle attached on a chain. One thermometer is ordinary. The other has a cloth wick over its bulb and is called a wet-bulb thermometer.

When a reading is to be taken, the wick is first dipped in water and then the instrument is whirled around. During the whirling, the water evaporates from the wick, cooling the wet-bulb thermometer. Then the temperatures of both thermometers are read.

If the surrounding air is dry, more moisture evaporates from the wick, cooling the wet-bulb thermometer more so there is a greater difference between the temperatures of the two thermometers. If the surrounding air is holding as much moisture as possible - if the relative humidity is 100% - there is no difference between the two temperatures. Meteorologists have worked out charts of these differences for each degree of temperature so that the observer can find relative humidity easily. A sample is shown below:

Partial Relative Humidity Chart for 30° C Difference Between
Dry Bulb and Wet Bulb
Temperatures Relative Humidity
None 100%
0.5° 96%
1.0° 93%
1.5° 89%
9.0° 44%
9.5° 42%
14.5° 19%
15.0° 17%
18.0° 5%


But back in my day we got pre-World War Two schooling. Our humidity checker, a bit easier to say then slingphsychitree or whatever.

Used to have a glass sock. If you were lazy you only used that one device. You could read it first for the temperature and then swing it around for the humidity.

You did not wet the bulb. It is a much more sophisticated instrument. Much more accurate then putting water that can range in ph and chlorine, fluorine, sodium hydroxide and minerals greatly. Even bottled distilled water has contaminants in it from the plastic that could cause you to get a false reading.

I just went down and got a five degree differential, I did some other things in between and I would guess my breath in the basement for 30 minutes brought it up to 7 degrees differential.

I used a silicon wool. And I used a "J" type thermal couple to take the temperature. I believe it is accurate to +/- 0.1 degree Celsius. At the thermal couple level. Meaning it will show temperature differential at the thermal couple to 0.1 degree Celsius.

At correctly reporting the temperature compensating for ambient radiation I believe it can be off by one degree Celsius.

I used a house fan to blow on the sock.

Try yours with a glass sock.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

I spent an hour trying to find something to support this magic tool of yours william. I deal with humidity checkers all the time and they all use a wet bulb and a dry dulb. The wet bulb is wet not dry. We also have some eletronic wet bulb readers now and they work very well. According to everything I could find, wind chill is a calculation drived from freezing water.

I think this thread has run it's course and we all need to step back and let it go. If we don't agree on something, then we need to agree to disagree.

I could not believe that they would do away with that instrument. It was cool and very easy and quick to use. You read the temperature in the room swung it around and took your reading. It is pre-world War Two though. Most of what I learned in school was pre-World War Two.

We had a periodic table that was about 75 years old in the seventies. It became the modern periodic table for many years. Only recently did they start to change things into kelvin on the periodic table.

We learned about kelvin and understood that scale to be used for work at sub-zero temperatures. Work on super ARC weapons was being done at those temperatures.

It would never be used in day to day life. However as you may or may not know they have started to make the periodic tables giving temperatures in kelvin. That is just plain crazy.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Alan N]

I just went down and got a five degree differential, I did some other things in between and I would guess my breath in the basement for 30 minutes brought it up to 7 degrees differential.


Makes sense with all the hot air you have.

[William McCormick Jr]

I did experimenting and in fact a cotton cloth around the thermocouple in front of the fan does nothing really to change the temperature of the thermocouple.

But you put the glass cloth on there and away she goes. I mean the bottom just falls out. The temperature just drops.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum3.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum4.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum5.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum6.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum7.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum9.jpg

I don't know why you guys don't believe me but maybe you have some really good reason. I don't know what it is, but I will try to be as believable as I can. Sometimes I clown a bit, but I just need some comedy. Ha-ha.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

I did experimenting and in fact a cotton cloth around the thermocouple in front of the fan does nothing really to change the temperature of the thermocouple.

But you put the glass cloth on there and away she goes. I mean the bottom just falls out. The temperature just drops.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum3.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum4.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum5.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum6.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum7.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum9.jpg

I don't know why you guys don't believe me but maybe you have some really good reason. I don't know what it is, but I will try to be as believable as I can. Sometimes I clown a bit, but I just need some comedy. Ha-ha.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

I did experimenting and in fact a cotton cloth around the thermocouple in front of the fan does nothing really to change the temperature of the thermocouple.

But you put the glass cloth on there and away she goes. I mean the bottom just falls out. The temperature just drops.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum3.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum4.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum5.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum6.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum7.jpg
http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/Humidity/hum9.jpg

I don't know why you guys don't believe me but maybe you have some really good reason. I don't know what it is, but I will try to be as believable as I can. Sometimes I clown a bit, but I just need some comedy. Ha-ha.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Does anyone know how or why I can make one post, and three pop up. This is the only forum it happens on. Maybe they are still ironing out some stuff. And this is fine. I just would like everyone to know I just make one post and then sometimes three pop up.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[zapster]

Someone shoot me..:rolleyes:
When will this all end???



...zap!

[William McCormick Jr]

Someone shoot me..:rolleyes:
When will this all end???



...zap!

What is it about humidity that you don't want others to talk about? Ha-ha.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[zapster]

I have 28% Humidity in my house right now and the wood stove at full tilt..

Kettle's on the boil and we're so easily drawn away..

What's gonna happen next?

...zap!

[weldgault]

Zap, it would be good if we could stay on the topic from the originalThread, what yu thunk? John

[zapster]

Zap, it would be good if we could stay on the topic from the originalThread, what yu thunk? John



I think this thread should be friggin locked..


...zap!

[William McCormick Jr]

Zap, it would be good if we could stay on the topic from the originalThread, what yu thunk? John

In all this mess I posted about the time I took the valve off a large tank of acetylene. I will tell you after having a bag of oxygen and acetylene go off in my hands. I was praying something awful. As this horrifying gas mist blasted upwards at our buzzing fluorescent lights.

I wanted to think about anything but what could happen and probably should have happened. With all the bad connections and bad ceramic ends in the fluorescent lights.

We used to make a lot of wild railings for wooden spiral stairs. And while you are making and wrestling with them you often damage the florescent lights.

But it is amazing I was so scared that I just could not and would not think about it. I just wanted it to end. Luckily the garage door was wide open. A few minutes later I felt pretty good about going back inside.

One thing I did notice was that I did not smell the usual odor that you get from acetylene. I always wanted to solve that one. Maybe you have to let it out slowly to get the odor? Or maybe it all rose and never came down to our level?

It just seems like I should have been able to smell an acetylene tank blowing off at about 200 psi. Wobbling on the ground like it was angry. I still cannot keep a straight face thinking about that one. What an idiot.





Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Me!]

In Brooklyn, on a day with the current temperature of 7 degrees. In an alleyway with a strong constant wind. It makes acetylene stop coming out of the tank. In about a minute, under these conditions. A good new tank of acetylene can give no gas. Even when the regulator is removed.

In this example the wind would actually help HEAT the tank... :laugh:
The only way that the gas would stop coming out of a new tank would be you removed it WAY to fast, and it cooled it's self below it's boiling point (not likely at 7 deg. F the damn thing should go BOOM first!) So how would the wind help heat it? By keeping a warmer (7 deg. F) air flow around the tank.

My personal feeling if you are having problems with new tanks not putting out gas in the winter than you gas supplier is ripping you off... :laugh:

And you are incorrect about wind chill...
There is a difference between evaporative cooling and wind chill. ;)

[William McCormick Jr]

In this example the wind would actually help HEAT the tank... :laugh:
The only way that the gas would stop coming out of a new tank would be you removed it WAY to fast, and it cooled it's self below it's boiling point (not likely at 7 deg. F the damn thing should go BOOM first!) So how would the wind help heat it? By keeping a warmer (7 deg. F) air flow around the tank.

My personal feeling if you are having problems with new tanks not putting out gas in the winter than you gas supplier is ripping you off... :laugh:

And you are incorrect about wind chill...
There is a difference between evaporative cooling and wind chill. ;)

If anyone out there does work in alley ways on really cold windy days. Or upstate under decks that have forced air being pushed through, by the shape of the house or land. Please confirm the 5-10 second bone numbing cold that is created.

I was upstate doing a temporary run of flex from the basement window that was now under a new deck, to the upstairs bedrooms under construction.

I went under the deck and I could not believe the cold. I have worked on job sites when it was so cold wood cracked like Styrofoam. But I went under that deck and the wind was so strong it was actually pressurized. There was no more then five to seven mile an hour winds in the open. But not under that deck. I could not keep my hands in that cold air stream. Out of the stream no problem.

The same is true in alleyways. I believe it is the cold, the pressure differential, and the humidity.

You probably did not get to the post I made about glass wool causing the windchill effect. That is how they used to measure humidity. Cotton does not cause that effect. I was a little surprised about that. But I remembered the glass sock on the one we used. And sure enough it works, dry. When the cotton would not.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

This was a double post

[William McCormick Jr]

I have an idea from all this. On a seven degree day could there be unfrozen water in the air? Probably not. Any tiny vapor should be frozen.

Now if the wind in the alley hits the tank creates a pressure front, could this for a split second melt the tiny ice particles? Absorb tremendous amounts of heat and then go on its merry way?

They used to melt snow years ago with alcohol to create tubs of ice from tubs of water. They would chop up some ice into snow cone like flakes. And treat that with alcohol. That would turn the anti-freeze mix super cold. And in turn would solidify a giant bucket of water for more ice.

It is state change that absorbs the energy. As the snow turns from a solid to a liquid it absorbs energy. I think that is what could happen in the alleyway on a very cold day.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Me!]

If anyone out there does work in alley ways on really cold windy days. Or upstate under decks that have forced air being pushed through, by the shape of the house or land. Please confirm the 5-10 second bone numbing cold that is created.

I was upstate doing a temporary run of flex from the basement window that was now under a new deck, to the upstairs bedrooms under construction.

I went under the deck and I could not believe the cold. I have worked on job sites when it was so cold wood cracked like Styrofoam. But I went under that deck and the wind was so strong it was actually pressurized. There was no more then five to seven mile an hour winds in the open. But not under that deck. I could not keep my hands in that cold air stream. Out of the stream no problem.

The same is true in alleyways. I believe it is the cold, the pressure differential, and the humidity.

You probably did not get to the post I made about glass wool causing the windchill effect. That is how they used to measure humidity. Cotton does not cause that effect. I was a little surprised about that. But I remembered the glass sock on the one we used. And sure enough it works, dry. When the cotton would not.

Sincerely,


William McCormick
Wind speed can NOT cool objects below the actual temperature. 7 Deg. with 100MPH wind = 7 Deg. objects! We are talking about a tank of gas not you working under a deck. :rolleyes:

Have a good night.

[Shade Tree Welder]

I have an idea from all this. On a seven degree day could there be unfrozen water in the air? Probably not. Any tiny vapor should be frozen.

ZAP, no we need to leave this thread open, I need my daily comic relief from BillyMac :jester: .

"could there be unfrozen water in the air? Probably not" Oh you gotta love this!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[AnotherDano]

This message is hidden because William McCormick Jr is on your ignore list.

[William McCormick Jr]

Wind speed can NOT cool objects below the actual temperature. 7 Deg. with 100MPH wind = 7 Deg. objects! We are talking about a tank of gas not you working under a deck. :rolleyes:

Have a good night.

Glass wool changes that theory. Cotton does not.

Glass wool can absorb heat, dark heat rays. Could the outside of the acetylene tank be coated with something that does the same? For obvious reasons.

Years ago they used to put lead paint on propane tanks. That was to absorb X-rays. I know I hauled tons of the metal shot blasted lead paint from the propane factories away. I used to spend hours with the guys at the plant.

I brought them fireworks every year. They were great. I used to make up the steel pipes for mortars. I used to get the hammer shells from a friend that got them from Grucci.

I also used to make up the fire control boards so the fellow could put on a show for the town here on Long Island. They were cool.

But my point is if the tanks do have a coating that can absorb heat, like the fiberglass can. Could the wind hitting the tank release energy, and then super cool the surface?

There is no doubt about the tank being super cooled to a point that the initial air I heard when I cracked the tank, might have been into the tank. It was seven degrees outside. In the alleyway it was unbelievable.

I do not want to be right, I would like to know.




Sincerely,


William McCormick

[wello]

having read all post's I think william jr needs to get out more

[welderman1]

WOW! Mr. Mac you are kidding right? All your postings on this site are just out of this world. I am glad you work far away from me.

No disrespect but are you SERIOUS:rolleyes:

[William McCormick Jr]

having read all post's I think william jr needs to get out more


Get out of what?


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[TEK]

having read all post's I think william jr needs to get out more

I respectfully disagree. A rather confined, padded place comes to mind:laugh:

[William McCormick Jr]

Someone shoot me..:rolleyes:
When will this all end???



...zap!

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/WildBill.wmv

But on a serious note. I was reading up today on steam fired oil burners. They inject steam in with the oil to burn. They looked pretty cool. Probably needed someone to watch them all the time. But it shows you that steam is capable of burning hydrocarbons.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[weldgault]

how dangerous is it if someone runs too much pressure? I noticed a coworker whose cutting outfit had a broken acetelyne pressure guage on his regulator today. I fixed it, but was wondering if anyone knows definitively from experience what can happen, and how much is too much?



Willikam, this was the thread, what does this have to do with steam. I think you should post your cr@#$%p elsewhere. John Gault

[clive]

Just a note regarding the comment about "I opened the cylinder valve and the needle shot to over 15 psi". I have always made a practice upon shutdown to depressurize/bleed and then back the regulator out until it moves freely thus avoiding the surge on start up. I routinely check the regulator prior to opening the cylinder valve as well.
There is another reason for winding the regulator out, it stops leakage. Many bottles leak at the valve and apart from not filling your garage/workshop with fumes it is annoying to find a bottle you left full a few months back empty when you need it.

[weldgault]

There is another reason for winding the regulator out, it stops leakage. Many bottles leak at the valve and apart from not filling your garage/workshop with fumes it is annoying to find a bottle you left full a few months back empty when you need it.

I don't understand " winding your regulator out" or leaking at the valve? Which valve. Clear up the post and explain what you mean. John

[browny]

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/WildBill.wmv

But on a serious note. I was reading up today on steam fired oil burners. They inject steam in with the oil to burn. They looked pretty cool. Probably needed someone to watch them all the time. But it shows you that steam is capable of burning hydrocarbons.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

Something to back this up because it sounds like you are either spinning BS or don't understand what the steam is injected for?

Water/steam is a by product of the combustion of hydrocarbons - ie it is already 'burnt'. To 'burn' water you would need to somehow reverse the combustion reaction in the boiler, WHICH TAKES IN ENERGY and then in the subsequent burning of the O2 and H2 you WOULD NOT GET OUT ANY MORE ENERGY THAN YOU STARTED WITH. Actually you would get out less energy due to inefficiencies.

There are soot blowers in coal boilers which run on steam but unsurprisingley these are used to blow soot from the boiler tubes.

[browny]

So a quick Google search reveals that some oil boilers use steam to atomise the oil. No mention of it being involved in the combustion reactions.

[weldgault]

What does this have to do with Acetylene explosion, Start another Thread, if you are going to go to a different subject. John

[browny]

What does this have to do with Acetylene explosion, Start another Thread, if you are going to go to a different subject. John

What does a lot of this thread have to do with an acetylene explosion?

Maybe read the bits regarding WMc's ramblings about setting leaking trucks on fire to see the relevance of the last few posts.

[MicroZone]

:laugh: If the truck is leaking - blow it up! :laugh:

[zapster]

:laugh: If the truck is leaking - blow it up! :laugh:


15229


...zap!

[weldgault]

What does a lot of this thread have to do with an acetylene explosion?

Maybe read the bits regarding WMc's ramblings about setting leaking trucks on fire to see the relevance of the last few posts.

I know, I've answered a lot of his ramblings, with insults and that did no good, he still goes on and on and on. John

[William McCormick Jr]

What does a lot of this thread have to do with an acetylene explosion?

Maybe read the bits regarding WMc's ramblings about setting leaking trucks on fire to see the relevance of the last few posts.

That was basically what I was talking about. We discussed a lot of stuff about fuels burning. Then I came across a book on how to repair steam injected boilers.

Instead of using air, to atomize the oil the jet is created by steam. Steam acts like oxygen to the oil, making it burn. Steam or even water vapor in the air changes the way an aromatic hydrocarbon burns.

Did anyone else do any work with fiberglass and windchill? It is an interesting phenomena. That I cannot totally explain. Cotton does not create the same effect.

I was discussing this with a fellow today, very smart guy. We could not figure out exactly and conclusively why fiberglass would be able to cool off something wrapped in it. And yet cotton could not.

Or why an oxidized silicon material would create a windchill effect and cotton would not.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[browny]

Steam acts like oxygen to the oil, making it burn.

Please show me the chemistry because I cannot see how this could happen.

Hydrocarbon + oxygen = H2O + CO2

Hydrocarbon + oxygen + H2O = More H2O + CO2

[weldgault]

Browny, can we send him down under, where you are and let you deal with him.

[Alan N]

Please show me the chemistry because I cannot see how this could happen

Browny, I've asked him repeatedly to document his BS and he just ignores that. This is one individual who is so full of himself it is truly mind boggling. Maybe if nobody played him along he would go away but I'm not sure of that. Maybe he just feels it is his duty to try to enlighten is unedcuated masses by sharing the things only he knows.

Can't even get him to put down the crack pipe, can't say we didn't try.

[William McCormick Jr]

Please show me the chemistry because I cannot see how this could happen.

Hydrocarbon + oxygen = H2O + CO2

Hydrocarbon + oxygen + H2O = More H2O + CO2

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/KitchenOilFire.wmv

If you take a look at that video, slowly frame by frame, if you cannot catch it in motion. Look at how the addition of water, to the hot oil, creates the effect of an air inlet tube in an acetylene plumbers torch.

That is a massive amount of rich hot oil. It is barely burning because it is so rich. But when you add that water, look at the flame coming out of the pot. It becomes a blue oxygen abundant flame. That requires a good deal of oxygen. In fact a great deal of oxygen to do that.

An older acetylene torch makes for a great tool to experiment with. If you cut off the air to the acetylene torch. You can blow on the yellow flame but you cannot get it to come up blue, without allowing air and oxygen into the air inlet port on the torch. That lets air mix with the acetylene in the tube. Then it comes out blue.

I am saying that you cannot get that blue flame just as it appears in the video, without adding oxygen to the hot oil fumes inside the pots lip. Where there is only hot oil and water. And a tiny amount of free oxygen.

Water is 8/1 by weight oxygen to hydrogen. That is a lot of oxygen.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

Browny, I've asked him repeatedly to document his BS and he just ignores that. This is one individual who is so full of himself it is truly mind boggling. Maybe if nobody played him along he would go away but I'm not sure of that. Maybe he just feels it is his duty to try to enlighten is unedcuated masses by sharing the things only he knows.

Can't even get him to put down the crack pipe, can't say we didn't try.

Firemen have to face fires like that on a larger scale. In machine shops and other factories. They are limited to what they can use. The water will only create more oxygen, in most cases.

A gigantic blast of CO2 might do it. But it could reignite, and possibley cause an explosion when it does.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[denrep]

Firemen...
...are limited to what they can use. The water will only create more oxygen, in most cases...


Bill,

By the nature of a liquid, oil in this case, it can only burn on it's surface area, which is exposed to oxygen. When water is thrown onto burning oil, it displaces oil, thus increasing the surface area available to burn.

This is more commonly known as ARC (Added Refluent Combustion) effect! :) :blob4:

[denrep]

I didn't mean to hit this thread hard enough to knock it out cold!

Is it okay, will it revive? :laugh: :waving:

[daddy]

denrep, I started it, maybe I can revive it. Here goes!

How long can I run a victor #2 cutting tip at 7 PSI acetylene continuously( on a large tank) without exceeding dangerous delivery rates?

[weldgault]

denrep, I started it, maybe I can revive it. Here goes!

How long can I run a victor #2 cutting tip at 7 PSI acetylene continuously( on a large tank) without exceeding dangerous delivery rates?



A #2 cutting (Victor 2-1-101) 3/6# PSIG/10/16 SCFH, Do the math on the amount of acetylene in your cylinder. Example 145 CUFT = 1.45 Hrs/.9 Hrs. John-----Hope this is what you wanted to know

[daddy]

Still confused. Full cylinder: 145 cu. ft. One seventh of that is 20.7 cu. ft. So if my tip uses less than 20.7 cu. ft./hr then I should be able to run it continuous, no? How much does a #2 tip use/hr?

[William McCormick Jr]

Bill,

By the nature of a liquid, oil in this case, it can only burn on it's surface area, which is exposed to oxygen. When water is thrown onto burning oil, it displaces oil, thus increasing the surface area available to burn.

This is more commonly known as ARC (Added Refluent Combustion) effect! :) :blob4:


You can see that the pressure is coming from inside the pot. There is no air flow into that blue stream. If anything it is expanding beyond the walls of the pot. Not sucking air into it.

I know torches pretty well after using them for many years. And you can get a somewhat blue flame by putting to much acetylene pressure into a cutting torch. However if you look at the aerodynamics of that, the air is in fact being sucked in. But into an area that is not burning. Into a negative pressure zone.

Obviously there is not a negative pressure zone with all that steam pressure. I find it odd that you would attack that without going over the obvious.

Oxygen cannot feed the outside of a large column like that and turn it blue. That is the oxygen in the water. If I get a chance I will feed a hot plumbers torch with steam and video it. I will be able to turn the flame blue and yellow back and forth. With no change in surface area.

But if you look at that movie you can see that the blue flame comes out of the pot under pressure. Not sucking in air at all.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Sandy]

Still confused. Full cylinder: 145 cu. ft. One seventh of that is 20.7 cu. ft. So if my tip uses less than 20.7 cu. ft./hr then I should be able to run it continuous, no? How much does a #2 tip use/hr?

Johns example spelled out 10 SCFH at 3 psig and 16 SCFH at 6 psig. His example also showed draining a 145 cu.ft cylinder in 1.45 hrs or .9 hrs respectively. So yes, if you stay within the parameters John listed, you could run that particular tip continuously till the tank was empty.

[denrep]

...Obviously there is not a negative pressure zone with all that steam pressure. I find it odd that you would attack that without going over the obvious.

Oxygen cannot feed the outside of a large column like that and turn it blue. That is the oxygen in the water. If I get a chance I will feed a hot plumbers torch with steam and video it. I will be able to turn the flame blue and yellow back and forth. With no change in surface area.


Bill, I don't want to steal this thread.

We can discuss water burning and such, here: http://www.weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=18170

[daddy]

Johns example spelled out 10 SCFH at 3 psig and 16 SCFH at 6 psig. His example also showed draining a 145 cu.ft cylinder in 1.45 hrs or .9 hrs respectively. So yes, if you stay within the parameters John listed, you could run that particular tip continuously till the tank was empty.

Draining the entire tank in 1.45 or .9 hrs? That is alot more than one seventh/hr
What does SCFH stand for ?

[zapster]

What does SCFH stand for ?


Surface Cubic Feet (per) Hour..


...zap!

[denrep]

What does SCFH stand for ?

SCFH - Flow at known Standard conditions,Cubic Feet per Hour.

[Sandy]

Draining the entire tank in 1.45 or .9 hrs? That is alot more than one seventh/hr
What does SCFH stand for ?

I no doubt got the math wrong. :) moved the decimal. Anyway, it's a matter of dividing your tanks cubic feet capacity by the draw of your tip................145 cubic foot quals tank divided by 10 cubic feet per hour equals 14.5 hours of straight cutting time. A 145 cubic foot tank divided by 16 cubic feet per hour equals 9.0x hours.

[daddy]

Ok, here we go again,...

I'll set the stage first.

O/A outfit lives outside in PA winter. Regulators are exposed to freezing rain with no protection. 100' hoses. Flashback arresters on output of regulators before hose. No. 2 Victor cutting tip.

Torch operater,(NOT ME!) is burning bolt holes in top of I beam to accept housing that is sitting on the beam. The housing is 3/8" plate and there is a shim of 1/2" plate under it,both with holes punched already, so he has a hole of almost one inch deep that he is stuffing that tip into to cut the matching hole in the beam.

I'm doing other things and look up to see torch operater with torch spewing black soot in the same way that a properly adjusted torch burns a flame. Being a safety conscious fella, of course, I calmly reach over to the acetylene tank and close the valve as quickly as I can, then close the Oxy. tank. In the mean time he had closed the valves on the torch, but when he opened them again he still had black soot shooting out of the torch full force. With the tanks both shut off, I felt slightly safer, and figured that if there was a fire in the hose we should disconnect it from the regs, so that is what I did. Some soot emerged from the fitting when I unhooked the acetylene hose from the reg, but no fire or flames.

The regulators and flashback arresters were taken inside and de-thawed with copious amounts of water emerging from the acetylene reg especially, and the torch tip was thoroughly cleaned.

Given the deep holes that he was trying to start a piercing cut inside, I'm sure he was backfiring the torch.

I reinstalled everything after water mitigation, and used the setup with no problems for an hour or two for other things.

What happened? Was there a fire in the hose? Did the flashback arresters save my ***?

Why does the torch always work fine for me, without making me sh*t my pants?

This guy also has a torch "cleaning technique" that involves purposly backfiring the torch on a piece of wood taught to him by an old dago.

Being of Italian descent myself, I hope none of my uncles used this trick. I never have.


Sorry, had to vent a wee bit.

[William McCormick Jr]

Ok, here we go again,...

I'll set the stage first.

O/A outfit lives outside in PA winter. Regulators are exposed to freezing rain with no protection. 100' hoses. Flashback arresters on output of regulators before hose. No. 2 Victor cutting tip.

Torch operater,(NOT ME!) is burning bolt holes in top of I beam to accept housing that is sitting on the beam. The housing is 3/8" plate and there is a shim of 1/2" plate under it,both with holes punched already, so he has a hole of almost one inch deep that he is stuffing that tip into to cut the matching hole in the beam.

I'm doing other things and look up to see torch operater with torch spewing black soot in the same way that a properly adjusted torch burns a flame. Being a safety conscious fella, of course, I calmly reach over to the acetylene tank and close the valve as quickly as I can, then close the Oxy. tank. In the mean time he had closed the valves on the torch, but when he opened them again he still had black soot shooting out of the torch full force. With the tanks both shut off, I felt slightly safer, and figured that if there was a fire in the hose we should disconnect it from the regs, so that is what I did. Some soot emerged from the fitting when I unhooked the acetylene hose from the reg, but no fire or flames.

The regulators and flashback arresters were taken inside and de-thawed with copious amounts of water emerging from the acetylene reg especially, and the torch tip was thoroughly cleaned.

Given the deep holes that he was trying to start a piercing cut inside, I'm sure he was backfiring the torch.

I reinstalled everything after water mitigation, and used the setup with no problems for an hour or two for other things.

What happened? Was there a fire in the hose? Did the flashback arresters save my ***?

Why does the torch always work fine for me, without making me sh*t my pants?

This guy also has a torch "cleaning technique" that involves purposly backfiring the torch on a piece of wood taught to him by an old dago.

Being of Italian descent myself, I hope none of my uncles used this trick. I never have.


Sorry, had to vent a wee bit.

When you burn acetylene and oxygen you get water.

If you have a welding blanket fold it to about four layers thick, and put it on a piece of metal. Then put the acetylene torch to it, for just a second or two. You will find the metal is all wet. It creates an enormous amount of water in a few seconds. Normally you do not get to see it because it turns to steam.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

This guy also has a torch "cleaning technique" that involves purposly backfiring the torch on a piece of wood taught to him by an old dago.

Being of Italian descent myself, I hope none of my uncles used this trick. I never have.

It was from a time when you had no time on the job to fiddle with the one set of twisted or broken cleaning kits.
Those guys were probably over worked. And resorted to things like that to clean the torch in hurry.

I have over the years in frustration rubbed it across a steel plate while it was lit. It pops a few times and often blows out the carbon or metal ball, lodged in one or more of the heating orifices. Sure it is dead wrong, but when you are in a hurry, you do dangerous things.

More often then not it makes it worse or ruins the tip so you cannot clean it with a cleaning kit.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[wello]

Browny, can we send him down under, where you are and let you deal with him.

I don't know what browny thinks but for me its a no thanks

[joethemechanic]

McCormick,

Did the bus you rode to school look like this?

http://www.britannica.com/psychedelic/images/opsyroc089p4.jpg

[denrep]

McCormick,

Did the bus you rode to school look like this?

http://www.britannica.com/psychedelic/images/opsyroc089p4.jpg

Man - Look at the huge hubs and rubber on that bus. Whoever spec'd that baby wanted it to have brakes! Probably from mountain country.

Better have plenty of acetylene on hand, when you try to take those rusty old wheel nuts off... So you don't blow your mind!

[William McCormick Jr]

McCormick,

Did the bus you rode to school look like this?

http://www.britannica.com/psychedelic/images/opsyroc089p4.jpg

No I don't think we went to school together.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[joethemechanic]

No I don't think we went to school together.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

Sorry you missed it. The bus was a great time.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/zia517/GollyBlotsm.jpg

[Mandau]

C2H2 -- Dissolved Acetylene , meaning 2 kg of acetone hold a kg of Acetylene... a normal bottle at my place need 14 kg of acetone to dissolve 7 kg of the gas... u get +/- 6-6.5 kg worth of welding dissolved acetylene...

If someone decided to reduce the acetone or not refill due to addition cost of acetone then you get not the full amount... the acetone act as a catalysis ...

I have seen some shady operator making customer believe that pressure is an indicator of volume... like O2:rolleyes:

Anyway, the catalysis make the gas stable, without acetone the acetylene wouldnt be fill... do the math above.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen acetylene leak and the cylinder just fly and stuck to the roof until it subside... nothing unusual in old days... hard to see now.

The cylinder have a safety protection on the valve that will burst and let the gas away.

when you see a torch light because you forget to tighten the handle and was llighted by stray grinding spark or other strange source... which could lead to flame... calmly walk to the cylinder and turn the main valve off and you will save a lotta shock.

Never store huge amount of O2 and C2h2 within 15 meter limit...

degrease yourself often as welding environment is very dangerous with your hand full of lubricant or grease...

I hope I have not bored you all... err... back to my cage

[William McCormick Jr]

Sorry you missed it. The bus was a great time.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/zia517/GollyBlotsm.jpg

I will tell you though, I would have been afraid to sit in the back of the bus. Ha-ha.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[weldmonger]

I was told by a real NERD that the really dangerous point in acetylene outlet pressure is 30 psi. And, that the industry felt that they should state 15 psi is the safe
MAXIMUM pressure , so many , if not most acetylene regulators are red lined above 15 psi , or some even won't allow more than 15 P. S. I. output. and some of my Victor reg. screws are too short to allow more than 15 psi output . Anyways, unless you want to go meet Satan real soon, just abide by the 15 psi limit , and be safe . If you're cutting really thick metal , use a journey man size single stage regulator and a BIG hose , & stay under 15psi.

I agree, There is always a fudge factor built in to these limits. Smith Torch chart lists 15 psi as recommended pressure for rosebud type tips on acetylene and oxygen. In the UK the limit on max acetylene pressure is greater. But to play it safe,,,just play by the rules and keep it at 15psi or less.

here are some good welding safety tips...pretty funny too.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/welding-safety.html

[zapster]

When is someone gonna put a bullet in this thread and kill it off once and for all?:rolleyes:

...zap!

[William McCormick Jr]

I agree, There is always a fudge factor built in to these limits. Smith Torch chart lists 15 psi as recommended pressure for rosebud type tips on acetylene and oxygen. In the UK the limit on max acetylene pressure is greater. But to play it safe,,,just play by the rules and keep it at 15psi or less.

here are some good welding safety tips...pretty funny too.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/welding-safety.html

He has the bag of oxygen and acetylene killing you, wrong. I know I lived through it, and I would even do it again.

What might kill during an explosion? It is an electrical emission from a power source or conductor of some type. I actually saw a guy that witnesses said got hit with a lightning bolt from the house power lines during an oxygen and acetylene blast at night time. That I set off. I believe that night time plays a role in these emissions that do not appear to take place at these energy levels in the day time.

I had warned him ahead of time to move further away, but he did not want to.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[TEK]

Well Ladies and Germs, here we goes agains---:sleeping::waving:


Uh, Zap, there aint a big enough bullet to do that.....

[Mandau]

When is someone gonna put a bullet in this thread and kill it off once and for all?:rolleyes:

...zap!

well dont use acetylene or change to tig, mig... gouging or... etc (stop being a welder) :D

[weldgault]

He has the bag of oxygen and acetylene killing you, wrong. I know I lived through it, and I would even do it again.

What might kill during an explosion? It is an electrical emission from a power source or conductor of some type. I actually saw a guy that witnesses said got hit with a lightning bolt from the house power lines during an oxygen and acetylene blast at night time. That I set off. I believe that night time plays a role in these emissions that do not appear to take place at these energy levels in the day time.

I had warned him ahead of time to move further away, but he did not want to.



Sincerely,


William McCormick



Well Bill, oxygen and acetylene, if not used correctly will KILL you. I think if you back up about 10 feet you will see that you are totally wrong about a lot of things and are beginning to be a real a$$. Why don't you just pick up your marbles and go home. John Gault

[Mandau]

I seen many unprofessional O/A welder get kill because the mishandle the oxygen , had grease or lubricant on their hand or gloves... this is the real killer...

[joethemechanic]

John Gault

Who the hell is John Gault? :laugh:

[William McCormick Jr]

Well Bill, oxygen and acetylene, if not used correctly will KILL you. I think if you back up about 10 feet you will see that you are totally wrong about a lot of things and are beginning to be a real a$$. Why don't you just pick up your marbles and go home. John Gault


Sure you can create a situation where oxygen or acetylene can kill you. However when mixed to a perfect burn and put into a lawn and leaf bag about 2/3s full, it will just knock you back.

If I am wrong about something, tell me what it is I am wrong about, and I will fix it. I am sure others would jump on me if I am wrong, and rightly so.

As I said, I would not experiment at night near power lines or conductors. No matter the distance from the blast. The fellow who got hit was at least sixty feet away from the blast. Everyone else was about twenty to thirty five feet away.

My brother had a situation where a pump bearing went bad while pumping out a diesel fuel tank probably contaminated with water. The bearing heated the fluid, and ignited it. That in turn shot flames onto the storage area for the acetylene tanks. They all blew, either out of the top when the blow off let loose. Or when they just blew up because the blow off failed.

As someone mentioned oil and oxygen do not mix. I make aluminum wrenches for a gas company near me. The workers have had their clothes and gloves catch on fire and blow off their bodies.

What appeared to happen a couple times is that someone went for pizza and did not wash all the oil off of himself. It may have dripped down on his shirt unseen, or someone walking behind him may have dripped a drop on him. Because one time the fellows shirt blew up behind him.

I make the wrenches because they do not spark. But it is hard to find 70-75 T8 anymore. Today they have 60-61 cast plate that is very hard. But I do not believe it is as good for surface to surface wear as the 70-75 tooling plate.

They are speed wrenches for opening hundreds or thousands of oxygen bottles a day. And the handle must ride on the shoulder bolt that I machine. If it is not hard enough it creates friction and wear.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/GeneralCadd/Ewrench/index.html

http://www.rockwelder.com/GeneralCadd/Ewrench/image/Ewrench1.jpg
http://www.rockwelder.com/GeneralCadd/Ewrench/image/Ewrench2.jpg


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/hydrocarbonburn.wmv

Here is a movie showing that pure acetylene gas, already in a pure gaseous state. Being forced out of the tube under pressure. Will not mix with air, and will not turn blue. Even though it is being shot from the tube with pressure.

Yet if air is mixed with it ahead of time it will come out blue. The oil kitchen fire video below shows that water creates the effect of adding oxygen or air to the oil vapor. From inside the tube or port.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/KitchenOilFire.wmv

If I was to use so much pressure that the flame left the tube, then it could suck air into the acetylene stream and it would create a partially blue flame. However that is not the case in the either video.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Mark...]

Sure you can create a situation where oxygen or acetylene can kill you. However when mixed to a perfect burn and put into a lawn and leaf bag about 2/3s full, it will just knock you back.

and blow your clothes off, blow both eardrums and burn off any body and face hair.

[Mandau]

you make better wenches than me... I need to make an improvement soon...

[zapster]

This is unbelievable..:rolleyes::rolleyes::sleeping:

...zap!

[William McCormick Jr]

and blow your clothes off, blow both eardrums and burn off any body and face hair.


No, I had it happen, and to my surprise no loss of hair, no burns no eardrum damage. I did have a high pitch whistle in my ears for a few minutes. But no damage at all. In fact afterwards I noticed that my hearing was actually darn good. Because I was worried a bit, I kept checking it.

It certainly did not hurt my clothes.

I believe what you are referring to is when oxygen and some hydrocarbon gets under your clothes. Then it does blow and burn them off, usually more slowly, and that can burn you.

A perfect mix goes to fast to burn you, at those quantities that I described.

But I fire rifles at the indoor rifle range without hearing or eye protection. And have never suffered any hearing loss or eye damage, that I know of.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

you make better wenches than me... I need to make an improvement soon...

I have to give some of the credit to the guy who made the original steel wrench.

I just recreated it with aluminum, with a larger diameter shoulder bolt, thread, nut, and handle. And I made the wrench a bit thicker so it would last longer.

There are two sets of threads, one in the wrench body, and the other in the nut. So it acts like a double nut lock.

Pretty easy to make though. And they seem to last a couple months. Then I can just take the handles off and replace the wrench body.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Mark...]

This is a waste of forum space.

[zapster]

This is a waste of forum space.



:drinkup: Straight and to the point :drinkup:

...zap!

[TEK]

:drinkup: Straight and to the point :drinkup:

...zap!

But it does keep him off the streets, and thats good, right??:waving:

[zapster]

But it does keep him off the streets, and thats good, right??:waving:

I suppose but why do we have to watch him??..:laugh:

...zap!

[TEK]

I suppose but why do we have to watch him??..:laugh:

...zap!

Just our turn in the ring.....next month..who knows.....:waving:

[William McCormick Jr]

This is a waste of forum space.


You are doing what a lot of individuals do when faced by an unknown phenomena. You have heard that it is very dangerous, or would blow your clothes off, or blow your ear drums out. And out of safety, which I also love, you would rather be safe then sorry.

Can I wait to have another blow up in my hands, ya, about a hundred years. But that does not change that the mix is pretty cool in its effects on the human body. It was probably tested and tested very well.

But bottom line is if someone is faced with letting a more dangerous situation occur rather then face a small oxygen acetylene blast, I would say just go deal with it when it is a leaf size bag of gas almost filled.

I have noticed that the size of the bag seems to exponentially increase the power of the blast. So if you have made someone extremely paranoid and they run and let the torch leak out completely, you could be telling them to do something life threatening.

I am giving hard won facts, that I am not real proud of, but rather look at them like rather comical hard knocks of life. That I am sharing with intelligent realistic individuals. That may decide to take a chance and nip a leak in the butt, while it is small, rather then run for their life. That is what I learned from my experience.

I do not get why this subject is frowned upon.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Donald Branscom]

I don't know, but I about wet my pants the other other day at work. I opened the valve on the acetylene tank and the needle shot WAAAYYYYY up into the red. Something like 25-30psi.

It mae me wonder wht the dang regulators even allow goofy stuff like that. Why aren't they limited to 14psi?

If you bleed your regulators at the end of each workday you will not have the problem that you had. In 1981 there was an accident and 17 people were killed. Do not be facing the regulator directly when turning it on, or you can get a regulator handle in the face. i have seen it happen. you can get broken teeth.

You really need to understand your regulators and the proper way to turn them on and off properly. Many welders still do not know how to bleed them, or the order in which you turn them on and off.

[William McCormick Jr]

If you bleed your regulators at the end of each workday you will not have the problem that you had. In 1981 there was an accident and 17 people were killed. Do not be facing the regulator directly when turning it on, or you can get a regulator handle in the face. i have seen it happen. you can get broken teeth.

You really need to understand your regulators and the proper way to turn them on and off properly. Many welders still do not know how to bleed them, or the order in which you turn them on and off.

I don't know what you mean exactly by bleeding.

I know that when I put a regulator on a tank. I like to open the torch and let them bleed out. Taking any oxygen in the acetylene line out. And any acetylene in the oxygen line out, before it can reach substantial pressure. I also clean out the valve in the acetylene tank before putting on the regulator. And I also clean out the oxygen valve in the oxygen tank before putting on the oxygen regulator.


Personally I keep my equipment very clean, I do bleed out excessive pressure in the lines at the end of the day, usually. But I do leave some pressure in there. The main reason for draining them is so the hoses a composite to not get stretched. The reason for leaving some pressure is so that contaminants cannot get sucked into the line. In the morning I drain the line and open the tank. I let the hoses drain without building up pressure. It is called purging.

I do the same with the oxygen.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Mark...]

William, I thought that since you seem to know everything, that you would know that not backing off the adjusting screw off when not in use causes premature wear on the diaphragm inside the regulator. Any properly trained torch operator also knows to comletely drain the pressure before backing off the screw.

Ambient air is not gonna contaminate the lines beyond what your little purge process will clear out instantly.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you seem to be having the mother of all parades, or is it a circus?

[Mandau]

here safety data sheit of Acetylene...:)

[William McCormick Jr]

William, I thought that since you seem to know everything, that you would know that not backing off the adjusting screw off when not in use causes premature wear on the diaphragm inside the regulator. Any properly trained torch operator also knows to comletely drain the pressure before backing off the screw.

Ambient air is not gonna contaminate the lines beyond what your little purge process will clear out instantly.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you seem to be having the mother of all parades, or is it a circus?

Actually moisture can permeate the hoses to some degree if moisture is allowed to get into the hoses. So I keep some pressure in there, only a pound or two. I have gauges that are really old. I mean like fifty years old. And I have never ruined a diaphragm in them. I always leave them set as they are. I believe opening the bottle to quickly will ruin the diaphragm.

But if you think about it, your Argon gauge is set to about 50 psi for life, and there is no way to relieve it. And they can also last at least 25 years like that. That I know of.

The kitchen oil fire did it for me, I have no more doubts about water, being about 8/1 oxygen by weight over hydrogen. I always knew water was a possible danger. But after seeing that kitchen oil fire, it sparked some doubts about exact quantities I had in my mind. So I did some other experiments. I have no doubts now.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/KitchenOilFire.wmv

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/hydrocarbonburn.wmv

In that second video I created a flame with forced air, to show that a blue flame can be created by adding pressurized air to pressurized acetylene gas. Most welders know that. And when you remove the air, there is just no way that pure hydrocarbons can burn blue without having already been mixed with oxygen.

That pressurized gas coming out of the pot as a blue streak, is in fact mixed with oxygen.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[denrep]

...I have gauges that are really old. I mean like fifty years old. And I have never ruined a diaphragm in them. I always leave them set as they are.... I don't think anyone backs 'em off. Three hundred or more cycles per year; the threads would probably wear out.

[paweldor]

I did not read all the responses to this post, so if I repeated something, I apologize.

Acetylene can become "self explosive" at 29.4 PSI. That's why we teach NEVER to adjust the working pressure of an acetylene gauge above 15 PSI (my usual max setting is 10). Another thing that is taught is to never transport acetylene cylinders laying down. If the valve is perhaps opened ever so slightly, it's possible the Acetone (liquid) could leak out and what you have left is a potential bomb.
Acetylene cylinders are filled with a porous material (why they are still heavy when empty) that absorbs the Acetone. Acetone stabilizes the acetylene gas when put in the cylinder. Another safety feature of acetylene tanks is the "safety plugs" in the tank. There are two in the top, two in the bottom. These are usually filled with lead so in the event of the tank being in a fire, the lead will melt and allow the acetylene to slowly escape and burn with the flames. Without that safety feature, you'd again have a bomb.
Back to laying the cylinders down. Here in PA, DOT will park near a welding supply house, wait for someone hauling cylinders, and if they see them laying down and unsecured, $300 fine per cylinder. I made a rack to carry all my cylinders vertical and strapped when I go for refills.
Always transport with caps ON, or with approved DOT safety devices installed.

[farmersamm]

William, I thought that since you seem to know everything, that you would know that not backing off the adjusting screw off when not in use causes premature wear on the diaphragm inside the regulator. Any properly trained torch operator also knows to comletely drain the pressure before backing off the screw.

Ambient air is not gonna contaminate the lines beyond what your little purge process will clear out instantly.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you seem to be having the mother of all parades, or is it a circus?

I used to close the tank valve, release all pressure from the lines, and release pressure on the regulator spring by backing off the knob.

UNTIL I wound up having to replace the seals on the seats in the regulator. The guy at the LWS told me that completely backing off the adjuster allows the seat to remain under force, and during hot weather it will distort and break down. And in general, it wasn't good for seat life to leave it under pressure.

The solution was to close main valve, bleed lines, then back off reg. screw and just slightly tighten it to keep the seat gasket off the seat. It might make the spring only last 20yr. instead of 50, but it beats replacing seals all of the time. Haven't had to replace one in about 7yrs.

[farmersamm]

Forgot to add that the gasket if left in contact for long periods will also stick to the seat, and get ruined when opened again ater an extended period of no use.

[Oldiron2]

Originally posted by Pawelder:
Back to laying the cylinders down. Here in PA, DOT will park near a welding supply house, wait for someone hauling cylinders, and if they see them laying down and unsecured, $300 fine per cylinder. I made a rack to carry all my cylinders vertical and strapped when I go for refills.
Always transport with caps ON, or with approved DOT safety devices installed.
I don't know what the laws are there but that sounds like typical government overkill to me. Laying the tanks down isn't the problem, only using them soon afterwards. It can take a short while for the acetone to settle back into the filler, so if used immediately, acetone can be blown out with the gas, resulting in less than required within the cylinder.

Posted by Farmerasmm:
I used to close the tank valve, release all pressure from the lines, and release pressure on the regulator spring by backing off the knob.

UNTIL I wound up having to replace the seals on the seats in the regulator. The guy at the LWS told me that completely backing off the adjuster allows the seat to remain under force, and during hot weather it will distort and break down. And in general, it wasn't good for seat life to leave it under pressure.
The solution was to close main valve, bleed lines, then back off reg. screw and just slightly tighten it to keep the seat gasket off the seat. It might make the spring only last 20yr. instead of 50, but it beats replacing seals all of the time. Haven't had to replace one in about 7yrs.
I've been using that procedure now for decades; my Harris regulators are over 40 years old and have had the seals replaced once.

[Mondo]

...Here in PA, DOT will park near a welding supply house, wait for someone hauling cylinders, and if they see them laying down and unsecured, $300 fine per cylinder....

Sounds like the typical predatory action of a police state. Instead of setting up as a courtesy to provide educational information and help citizens live a safer life, they prey on the unsuspecting and ignorant like hungry lions snagging a meal at the watering hole. And then they have the audacity to wonder why people look to the police with disdain and disrespect. :mad:

-Mondo

[Tractapac]

Sounds like the typical predatory action of a police state. Instead of setting up as a courtesy to provide educational information and help citizens live a safer life, they prey on the unsuspecting and ignorant like hungry lions snagging a meal at the watering hole. And then they have the audacity to wonder why people look to the police with disdain and disrespect. :mad:

-Mondo

This must be the same the world over. It probably also only happens in democratic states, too.:rolleyes::laugh:

[ironyworks]

Back before they figured how to safely compress acet in bottles filled with asbestos fiber, everybody used acet generators. I've had and used a couple of them. It was cheap when i was poor and burning a lot of gas.
They used to explode pretty regularly, giving gas welding it's bad reputation.
Guys would get lazy and keep adding new carbide and water instead of cleaning out the generators like they were supposed to. The accumulated debris in the bottom of the generator would start "regenerating" heat up and produce a surge of pressure. Those generators made funky gas with all sorts of gunk along with the gas, so the relief valves would freeze shut and the whole puppy would blow big time!