common cause of fire

[cornishnutter]

hi what are the common causes of fires these are my anwsers so far are oily/greasy rags, rubbish on the floor, gas leaks, general untidyness can any one tell some more as it is for my collage work

[TSOR]

I caught my shirt on fire yesterday. While welding a roll cage I leaned on a fresh weld and.....:blob2:

[Donald Branscom]

hi what are the common causes of fires these are my anwsers so far are oily/greasy rags, rubbish on the floor, gas leaks, general untidyness can any one tell some more as it is for my collage work

Rags in a trash can.

Steel wool left out can spontaniously combust. Like a window ledge.
It gets damp and then sunlight causes rapid oxidation because it has small fibers. bundels of steel wool are sold with a cardboard band. Automatic fire starter if left outdoors.

Grinding sparks can catch grass on fire VERY EASILY.
Welders forget this sometimes when they are used to working on concrete.
On some welding jobs they keep four 50 gallon barrels filled with water on each corner of the projet area to be tipped over in case of fire like around a steel boat being built outdoors.

Grace Slick of the Jefferson Airplane fame had her house burn down in Marin County California when county workers welding a fence caught the grass on fire with grinding sparks.
County workers only do occasional welding. Now they probably have to hire a professional welding service..
Then investigators were accused of stealing things from her home when investigating the fire. What were they thinking?

[Sandy]

Fires in general?? Go to any fire station and ask the same question. I think you'll find it goes something like electrical cords/appliances, then heating methods/stoves, then miscellaneous man made flame. Candles are a biggy in tha later group.

[ronbo]

I cut some steel with a high speed chop saw once and had an old 2X10 propped up behind it to deflect sparks. 20 minutes later I saw smoke and found the board smoldering. No fire just smoke. Lesson - wood is not a good fire stop.

[William McCormick Jr]

hi what are the common causes of fires these are my anwsers so far are oily/greasy rags, rubbish on the floor, gas leaks, general untidyness can any one tell some more as it is for my collage work

You get fires in a shop all the time. From sparks from grinders starting rags, dust, or paper on fire. Hot weld slag, rolling into dirty little corners and starting a little fire. The new flannel shirt probably the funniest of all. Ha-ha.

But number one killer or destroyer of facial tissue would probably be the spray paint can on the welding bench. Loose TIG welding wire or a MIG gun laid down and it self starts. Touches a can of spray paint. And you are instantly covered in paint and flame.

I was taught this by my father. I always try to teach this to who ever I teach to weld. Once I did not and a fellow was burned rather badly months later. He had a jacket with a plastic zipper that immediately failed. He was burned on his hands and face. He could not get off the jacket that was covered in paint.

Probably why welding leathers have snaps.

I had taught the fellow that worked for him this rule. But I guess it never got to him. He was an amazingly intelligent guy. And I think what happened was he just could not believe that he had been welding for many years and did not even know the basics of welding. He had told myself and his assistant that he knew all about welding. As I offered to give him some basics on welding safety before I left, Ha-ha.

I was just glad he was ok. He is a great guy.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[cornishnutter]

cheers for the anwsers

[MoonRise]

Cause of fire?

Heat, fuel, oxygen/air. Mix and you get fire.

I caught the lawn on fire a while ago. Culprit was the chop saw sparks (heat) hit the grass (fuel), similar to ronbo above. The air was already there. Went and got a bucket of water and put it out. Note to self was: keep chop saw spaced away from burnable stuff because it puts out lots and lots of sparks, and have a bucket of water handy.

[William McCormick Jr]

Rags in a trash can.

Steel wool left out can spontaniously combust. Like a window ledge.
It gets damp and then sunlight causes rapid oxidation because it has small fibers. bundels of steel wool are sold with a cardboard band. Automatic fire starter if left outdoors.

Grinding sparks can catch grass on fire VERY EASILY.
Welders forget this sometimes when they are used to working on concrete.
On some welding jobs they keep four 50 gallon barrels filled with water on each corner of the projet area to be tipped over in case of fire like around a steel boat being built outdoors.

Grace Slick of the Jefferson Airplane fame had her house burn down in Marin County California when county workers welding a fence caught the grass on fire with grinding sparks.
County workers only do occasional welding. Now they probably have to hire a professional welding service..
Then investigators were accused of stealing things from her home when investigating the fire. What were they thinking?

I had never heard of the steel wool. I have to pick up some of the fine stuff and check it out. Thanks.

Another good one is linseed oil and rags. I have gotten them to smoke feverishly but never actually got them to catch. I was not at all trying to get them to catch. I was warned by my farther not to leave them in the garbage can. But I thought for a little while they would be alright. They got pretty hot. But you know if you add in some moisture, who knows.

Potassium permanganate and glycerin, I used to use this for time delay on mortar rounds.
Pool chlorine tablets and motor oil, that was part of our hazmat training.

Sometimes water condensation on the lid of a chlorine container can drop into the container and cause a fire. I believe what takes place is the water drips on the chlorine tablets creating a super strong liquid chlorine that does not react well with a fresh drop of pure condensed water.

Sugar and sulfuric acid.

Sodium metal and water of course. Phosphorous and air. I once set my shoes and the asphalt on fire in a school parking lot, while disposing of it on site, rather then putting it on the truck.


Potassium metal and water. I set a sewer drain popping and exploding for a couple minutes by throwing some down into the drain one time.

Calcium metal creates hydrogen, and smells like an acetylene bottle mix. This could potentially be bad.

My brother had a kerosene pump bearing go bad, and it ignited the diesel fuel in the boat they were pumping out. That then ignited the acetylene storage area on fire. They lost about ten or twenty bottles of acetylene. He said it was like being in a war zone. The papers reported the accident as an oxygen explosion. My brother could not believe that they could have gotten the story so wrong. He sent me the little article from the paper. The paper claimed the fire department said it was an oxygen explosion.

I could see how water and rust in the bottom of the tank might grind together with the oil and start a fire.

I worked in a Hazard waste storage facility here on Long Island. We had some fires. I started most of them for fun. The foreman Jim Smiley used to come up and give me some chemicals to dispose of. He would laughingly say do you think you can start a fire with these? I almost always found a way. It made his day. Even the boss used to love it.

But some of the surprising fires are from kiln dust and small amounts of gas tank or oil tank bottoms with some water and fuel. Regular fire place ash, some water and a fuel is about all you need to get a good fire going. The chemical reactions can create a lot of heat especially in quantity.

If it does not catch on fire it turns to a kind of cement.

One day a fellow driver and I were driving on 495 out on the island, and we saw a dumpster truck on fire.

We had some good extinguishers. But we were also filled with drums of solidified Lead acetate, and a possible di-icocyanate mix from a Ford steering wheel manufacturing company. I still wanted to stop but in all honesty my partner just said no. And he was right.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[lotechman]

Older heavy equipment often has large amounts of crankcase oil and grease sitting under the dirt encrusted on the machine. The stream of sparks from a cutting torch is all it needs to start up. In sawmills around the machinery you often have sawdust, hydraulic oil, or grease mixed together. A fire watch is very important during shut downs. Sawmills have been lost for the want of a man on a charged hose standing by.

[TozziWelding]

Most common cause of fire, is stupidity.

[Burnit]

Potassium permanganate and glycerin, I used to use this for time delay on mortar rounds.

Huh?


Sodium metal and water of course. Phosphorous and air. I once set my shoes and the asphalt on fire in a school parking lot, while disposing of it on site, rather then putting it on the truck.

What?

Potassium metal and water. I set a sewer drain popping and exploding for a couple minutes by throwing some down into the drain one time.

Why?

I worked in a Hazard waste storage facility here on Long Island. We had some fires. I started most of them for fun.

Hey you know people get killed like that.

[William McCormick Jr]

Huh?



What?



Why?



Hey you know people get killed like that.


About potassium permanganate and Glycerin.

Potassium Permanganate, and glycerin like you can buy in a drug store. When mixed causes a flame in about twenty seconds.

You used to be able to buy potassium permanganate in crystallized or hydrated form. From your local drug store.

It was for treatment of radiation poisoning.

I believe, but do not hold me to this, you were supposed to take the oral dose if exposed to a massive radiation blast. Whether it just killed you quick or saved you I cannot answer that. Ha-ha.

Remember there is a difference between the hydrated and the raw granular type of potassium permanganate. The raw granular is dark purple with a drip coffee grind like granular texture. Which could be easily crystallized. The crystallized or hydrated form is a light almost lavender color.

However there is some work and evidence that potassium permanganate may have some ability to consume or remove the poisonous fluids caused by high radiation blasts and or the burns that accompany them.

Sodium Permanganate not potassium permanganate, is the only chemical I have ever heard of that was able to treat curare poisoning. Yet they say there is no cure for curare.

I believe they use potassium permanganate in some water treatment systems in Florida, but this is just something I was told. I have never seen it for myself.

Many do not know but glycerin is like anti-freeze. You can use it as an anti-freeze, they used to use it as an anti-freeze. I believe they must use an alcohol as well as just pure glycerin that melts at 64 degrees Fahrenheit. Just do not add potassium permanganate, Ha-ha.

Glycerin (Glycyl alcohol), like "ethylene glycol" (Car anti-freeze additive) are combustible. Ethylene glycol melts at 8.6 degrees Fahrenheit.

Glycerin has a slightly higher auto ignition temperature then Glycol. Glycerin is not as dangerous a poison. I would suspect both could be shocked to destruction.


About Sodium and Potassium Metal

I used to buy pounds of sodium metal and detonate it all over. It was great stuff. Once I was popping some in a coffee can. The small pop, was able to unravel the can opener, hem like seem at the top of the can. If you tried that with a screw driver and got a good bite, you would be hard pressed to open it like a small, almost comical pop did.

My thought was the sodium hydroxide gas cloud, caused the metal to bend like that.

Potassium metal is almost like sodium. However potassium takes on a more purple color then sodium when exposed to air. When you throw it into water you do not get as powerful or as snappy a pop as you can get from sodium.

But you get a low continuous gurgling and actually more low tone thunderous booms intermittently. It almost creates a rich gas that detonates a second time. At least in sewer drains.

About the fires.

We did that for knowledge. We did that for an understanding of what was written about the chemicals and how we understand those words compared to our reality.

What is "known to react with certain chemicals" mean? We found out.

We used to ship tons and tons a day over the roadways. It is good to know what actually could happen in just about any given situation. I used to get surprised all the time.

The best trainer we ever had, a world renowned fellow, smacked me in the head with something. Because I did not know what was about to happen. I was fooling around playing mister know it all, do it everyday, been there did that. Then he showed us a few I never saw. I had to love it.




Sincerely,


William McCormick

[denrep]

...The stream of sparks from a cutting torch is all it needs to start up....
...sawdust, hydraulic oil, or grease mixed together....

Lotechman brings up a serious concern for fire starting. One spark will kindle a paste of oily build-up, -especially when mixed with other combustibles, such as leaves, paper, plastics- it will smolder for hours or days, and then can flame up to destroy the machine and building.

The Hydra-Matic plant fire in 1953, at Livonia (Detroit) was started by torch sparks landing on a cosmoline type, rust preventative dip line. I believe the cause was pinned on a worker cutting overhead, at lunch time, without a fire-watch. I think that today, it is still considered the most costly industrial fire loss, ever; and it was started by a few mere sparks!

Another serious concern is welding work in buildings with less than perfect fit-up, and sealing, of wood, drywall and paper backed insulation. Fuzzy paper and dry wood make excellent kindling for smoldering spark started fires.

I guess my point is, that the worst fires are the ones that start with a smolder, and blaze up later, when it's too late to notice or do much.

Stay Alert!

[Burnit]

William I understand what you were sayin, I was questioning the judgement behind your actions.

[William McCormick Jr]

hi what are the common causes of fires these are my anwsers so far are oily/greasy rags, rubbish on the floor, gas leaks, general untidyness can any one tell some more as it is for my collage work

I did not see this exact one so I thought I would add it. Fires in dust collection systems, on belt or disc sanders. They can smolder for days before, or if ever going up.

A common one is in a cabinet shop. It is usually a calm place with no sparks. Every now and then you have to grind a piece of metal. Look out, an hour later you smell something.

Vacuum systems as well.

Dust in building duct work can go up like an explosive or flame thrower.



Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Chucker]

While working in the shop be sure to never put a lit pipe in your coat pocket as I know from experience that it will cause a pocket fire. It is a little unusual to smell burning clothing when you are not doing hot work. Just my little addition to the post.

[William McCormick Jr]

While working in the shop be sure to never put a lit pipe in your coat pocket as I know from experience that it will cause a pocket fire. It is a little unusual to smell burning clothing when you are not doing hot work. Just my little addition to the post.


That is the kind of thing you really don't think of unless you are a smoker, that is great.

Over the years I have come back to find some of my cigarettes burnt to the filter. Sitting on wood, or plastic. I was usually pretty lucky. But luck is not what safety is about. Kicked that habit finally years ago.

Another one that gets people good is the drop light. If that stupid thing touches something like wood, plastic, Rubber!, paper lookout. Rubber is an insane thing to have touch a hot light bulb. It can really get cooking.

We were working in a house that had twenty year old blown in insulation. I went through an 18"x18" opening to an attic carrying a drop light, and tools with me. I just put the drop light down, lightly to switch weight and crawl further. When I actually saw the insulation turn ember red and start smoldering. I am talking about in under three seconds. I had never seen that.

I tell the guys I am working with on this job, "DO NOT EVEN TOUCH THE LIGHT TO THE THIS INSULATION!"
I think what happened was these guys have been doing this for many years and just thought I was over reacting.

About ten minutes later, I smell something burning. I tell the guys they better go find it fast. They did not even bother to look where they had been, because in their mind, they were that sure it could not have started the insulation on fire. When I said go back to where you were. They found it instantly. They realized it was that dangerous.

This is like a hushed up thing in my area. Because I go into a lot of attics and I have even seen paper mache fences built by the homeowners to keep the insulation off the light fixtures.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Chucker]

On that track, as you all well know, many common items, with the proper accelerant, can become explosives. Feed mill fires, where the dust becomes the combustable and the bug dust (fine coal dust) found in coal mines ranks right up there. I think that whatever you are doing, especially when using high heat, requires a high degree of consciousness regarding your surroundings. It does take some of the fun out of just striking an arc but as the old saying goes "An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure". Thanks Chuck

[William McCormick Jr]

William I understand what you were sayin, I was questioning the judgement behind your actions.

I would just dispose of the phosphorous on site rather then put it on the truck with lab pack drums filled with all kinds of materials.

We would often have flammable liquid and solids. As well as hydrofluoric, and hydrochloric acid. Often different acids are combined in one drum of Virmiculite labeled acid. Even during and including the transportation to the hazardous waste storage and disposal facility.

Our company knew better then to combine the hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acid. Because three drops of each in a small room will kill you.

That was what was aboard the Amsterdam flight in the early nineties that killed the people in the apartment complex. When a cargo plane with both substances listed on the manifest, first lost their crew in flight, probably to the gas created after mixing. Then the plane crashed and killed firemen and apartment dwellers with the rest of the gas.

Government officials denied that both substances could have caused such a thing. I am so sure of the danger. Because once I was making a porcelain cleaner. And I knew that hydrochloric acid would weaken the hydrofluoric acid. I just did not know how much gas it would create in doing so. I found out quick. I almost died that day in a small bathroom from three drops of each substance. It is unbelievable. I should have just used more water to weaken the hydrofluoric acid. Live and learn. Ha-ha.

My point is that if you add in some phosphorous that burns hot enough to get through 55 gallon drums. There is no telling what kind of havoc you could create on the highway.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

On that track, as you all well know, many common items, with the proper accelerant, can become explosives. Feed mill fires, where the dust becomes the combustable and the bug dust (fine coal dust) found in coal mines ranks right up there. I think that whatever you are doing, especially when using high heat, requires a high degree of consciousness regarding your surroundings. It does take some of the fun out of just striking an arc but as the old saying goes "An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure". Thanks Chuck

One of my funniest accidents with dust was from a Rockwell palm sander. This was in the late seventies. One morning I come into the shop. I get out the palm sander from the post office safe we had for the tools.

I go to start it up. And it does not work. I tap it a little, but nothing. I figured it was working yesterday, it had to just be the brushes or the switch.

So I give it a really good shot. And it starts to sputter. And spew a bit of a white dust cloud. I hit it again, and now it really takes off, and just bellows dust out of it. And with that it detonates the cloud. I have no eye lashes, shortened eye brows, shortened mustache. What a morning.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[denrep]

McCormick, What kind of fire could you start with this old Hobart?!?:blob2: :waving:

http://www.weldingweb.com/showthread.php?p=155753#post155753

It needs to burn.

[William McCormick Jr]

McCormick, What kind of fire could you start with this old Hobart?!?:blob2: :waving:

http://www.weldingweb.com/showthread.php?p=155753#post155753

It needs to burn.

If it is a true generator, we could feed it a couple thousand volts of DC current and it should self destruct nicely.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[William McCormick Jr]

duplicate post

[denrep]

from: http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=7774764&nav=168XDWn7 Updated: Jan 25, 2008 09:52 PM PST

3-Alarm Fire at Las Vegas Monte Carlo Hotel

"There are also reports that welders were working on the roof of the hotel but the cause of the fire is not officially determined yet."

[blackdoggy]

I see another possible source of a fire if not electrocution and that would be working with a stick welder with a chewed up cable thats been taped back together.

[slowflyer]

Steel wool:

Since some of you were unfamiliar with this, I add emphasis. When I was a kid, we started campfires with it and kept it in the survival kits in Boy Scouts. It was dead easy to start fires with it and a mag flint. I see 0000 lying around in shops all the time where a stray spark could set it off.

[MoonRise]

speaking of fires and sanders:

This is not a common cause, but must have occurred enough that there actually -was- a fine print warning on the can of varnish. That I didn't see until AFTER things started to smolder.

I installed a hardwood floor and finished it with floor-grade polyurethane oil-based varnish. After the first coat set-up and dried overnight, I went back the next day for coat #2. Well, there was a little too much dust nibs and such to ignore, so a quick sanding was in order. The big vibratory floor sander with a giant ScotchBrite pad on it did a fine job on the main part of the floor, but I needed to get the corners and edges and such. So I grabbed the DeWalt random-orbit 5 incher. With the built-in dust collection canister. After working for a while, I smelled something burning. It was the sanded-off oil-based varnish in the collection canister. Smoldering.

Because relatively 'new' dried oil-based varnish can generate enough heat when sanded into small dust-sized particles that it can ignite, especially when air is being constantly fed into it by the dust-collection fan of the sander. Oh, and there was also sawdust in there as well.

Yes, there was a fine-print warning against doing what I was doing. But it was in all the fine-print.

The house was fine, no injuries, but the sander melted some parts. I had to get a new sander. No I did NOT use it to sand more of the floor varnish.

I am glad I was sanding at the start of the day, and hence was there when the sander was smoldering. And that the event didn't happen at the end of the day, when the tools would most likely have been just left sitting on or near the floor until the next day.

note: the effect is pretty much just like a crumpled-up rag with linseed oil on it catching fire. Same or similar chemical reaction(s).

[Joe H]

FRAYED JEANS!

We've all been there I'm sure. Just today I was mig welding a few parts at work. My jeans had a little tear and some fraying, about 1 inch from the zipper. I started getting hot, right in the crotch.:eek: Then my dumb @## smacked myself in the nads trying to put it out.

At least the rest of the shop got some comic relief.

[Mark...]

one thing to remember when using spray paint, always keep the spray can well ayway from any welding or cutting

[blackdoggy]

FRAYED JEANS!

We've all been there I'm sure. Just today I was mig welding a few parts at work. My jeans had a little tear and some fraying, about 1 inch from the zipper. I started getting hot, right in the crotch.:eek: Then my dumb @## smacked myself in the nads trying to put it out.

At least the rest of the shop got some comic relief.
:eek:OUCH! that hurt just reading that I hope you didn't smack your self with anything harder than a glove:rolleyes:

[Chucker]

Joe H: I hope that you did not hurt yourself and I could just see myself doing the same thing I see this post is still alive and well. It seems there are a lot of different ways to get hurt or damage your property due to fire and explosion. Once my dad was helping me to check spark on an old plymouth duster. He bridged the spark plug cable on the breather on the rocker cover and somehow caused an explosion which blew out the gasket on the intake manifold. I assume that the hot engine oil generated some vapor but it still mystifies me how the resulting explosion could come back through the system with enough force to blow out and intake gasket. I am still trying to figure that one out since the lubrication and the combustion systems are seperated from each other except at the piston rings. A common thread to a lot of these posts seems to be the existence of small particulates and an open flame or arc. Does anyone know if the fine dust coming off of unsealed concrete is combustable if exposed to high heat such as dropping slag? I have never seen it happen but after reading some of these posts I just thought I would ask. Chuck

[tanglediver]

OK, I've got a humiliating anecdote! :rolleyes:
I had a candle burnin' in a glass candle tray, I like the smell of candles. Well, I let the wick burn too close to the glass base.......it seems that glass is not flame proof! So at some magical temperature the glass finally had enough and let go with explosive force, spewing hot wax and burning wick and broken glass shards onto the wood floor next to me as I was surfing away on the web. Thinking swiftly, and not wishing to catch a cloth on fire I tamped out the flame with my bare hand...only to find my hand covered in hot burning wax and broken glass and oozing, brick red, capillary fed blood.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w191/tanglediver/P1280011.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w191/tanglediver/P1270001.jpg

So the moral of this story is, make steel candle trays!!:blob4:

[Weldordie]

So the moral of this story is, make steel candle trays!!:blob4:

The correct moral of the story is to not burn candles. If you can smell a candle burning, then microscopic particles are going into your lungs. We encounter many pollutants in our daily lives, why add to it by burning (and sniffing) candles? :dizzy:

This is not a lecture... just friendly advice.

[Weldordie]

I often use kitty litter and lacquer thinner to clean oil spills from my garage/shop floor. Of course I am careful to not get any open flames near the mixture, while it is still wet, since I don't want to remove the garage along with the oil spill. But, one time I had left a small pile to dry close to the area where I weld. I stepped over the apparently dry pile of litter, and struck an arc. When the first few sparks hit the litter, the remaining thinner ignited. There wasn't much thinner left in the litter, but enough to produce flames dancing around the top of the pile.

[William McCormick Jr]

You know that speedy dry the clay like substance for picking up oil spills. Is actually supposed to be ground into the oil stain. You do the chicken dance on it, and it crushes into a powder and pulls up the oil.

I used to put a bunch on an oil spill and thought it was a terrible product. Until I started working in the hazardous waste business.

I poured a whole bunch on a spill and the guys looked at me like I was crazy. They said a cup or two should do it.

So I asked how? They just walked on it and ground it into the oil spill. Wow does it pick up a lot of oil.

Sincerely,


William McCormick