The 4" spacing for guard railng code as I understand it...

[tapwelder]

Around here, 4" spacing applies to guard rails. A guard is required on any platform above 30". I doesn't apply to fencing unless a pool or drop off above 30 inches--some hazard to children. Many builders do not distinguish between a hand rail and a guard rail. They are different, Handrails are simply for grasping. Ironically, hand rails usually become guard rails because of placement at the edge of steps. Our code allows us on residential dwellings to use the top of the guard rail as a handrail. On commercial property it is different.

The 4 inch rule has nothing to do with a child's head getting stuck. It has more to do with where the head goes the body can follow. Otherwise, why not place the balusters at 10 inches or eliminate them all together.

Anyway as stated in the subject this is how I understand the codes. It helps to know the codes where if you build. It saves money in many ways and opens options when somebody wants a rail that is not required.

I would have imbedded this in another threat, after reading a post.

[worldsgreatestwelder]

I have explained this same thing to many my self.
Read the code people.
Jimmy

[Brett]

Hey Tapwelder

I know zero US codes but over in Australia we have things called ASA's ...Australian Standards, these are carefully researched and published .Now on their own they are only pieces of paper until referred to by a Law .There are thousands of them and now days bit by bit they are being combined with the Kiwi's ones and are ANZ Standards .
The "Law" for building and balustrading here is the BCA or Building Code of Australia.As soon as it refers to a Standard then that standard must be adhered to.
Building applications are approved by our local council , they may insisted on your DA ...Development Application of a higher standard than the BCA but not lower. This is rare though and you do have avenues of appeal via the Land and Environment Court.

My core business is balustrading and I would very interested in a brief out line of your balustrading Codes if you find the time.

Brett

[William McCormick Jr]

Here in the United States in the North Easter region. Most handrail or guard rail plans call for a sphere of 4" not fitting through the railings.

However your job can be shot down if the inspector can push a four inch sphere through the balusters. So the better builders or Project management companies call for 3.5 inches between balusters.

So often the railing guys will put the 1/2" bars four inches on center.

One thing that bothers me for the new apartments is that they allow two and three foot balcony rails to be placed on top of what they call "low walls",. The plans will read "Aluminum rails typical, Two foot high, Low Wall, One foot railing.

My thinking is that if you are really worried about a kid just walking up and climbing. The rails will have to be at least 42 inches above the "low wall". Since this will not look good and keep an adult from looking over the rail. They let it fly. So it is all kind of a big joke really.

Another thing that I notice is that once deck furniture is placed on these tiny decks they are making today, a kid can just trampoline off the chase lounge, or deck chair, and go sailing. You have no choice but to have the furniture next to an outside wall.

You are also allowed to have horizontal bars or pipes four inches apart. And I am sure any kid can climb those. So again it is really something that needs to be addressed, not with laws. Laws that are for fools that cannot govern their own greed. But with leadership in facing the actual problem. Laws do not stop greedy people, greedy people make the laws.

Most builders I know would much rather build it right, according to a real set of plans. Rather then just wing it with basically no technical set of plans at all. It has been many years since I have seen a professional set of drawings. Builders work off sketches at best. And they are usually highly inaccurate.

Another really important factor is that the building material they are using now on multi story buildings is that thin fiber board. It really has no structural value or real strength.

When you try to fasten hand rails to it. They often loosen up and pull out. Building inspectors pick up quick, and start trends to build the low walls. So that the railing is not the only thing you have between you and the ground. The problem is that a kid can climb the low wall, and then get over the one foot railing.

If I design the rails to be built, I build them higher. I also like to use bracing bars back to a 2"x6" metal exterior stud in the wall. Sometimes that is shot down though. Then they are just relying on that flaky fiber board. It is like asbestos shingles of old, but a bit thicker. Really good framers purposely put metal studs behind the spot railings will be placed. But even a single metal stud is a bit of a weak point. And often they omit or misplace them.

Normally we like to diamond core into the cement deck and use metal bars back to a stud. The bar covers probing holes to find a stud as well. And you can make the railing a bit smaller so it does not have to be an exact fit. Something that only a few guys on our island can do, by actually seeing many miss the mark. The bracing bars allow for some space between the rails and the wall.

When you are talking about measuring and building rails for a high rise, you might have 75 rails. And all will be different sizes. They just don't allot enough money for someone to coordinate 75 rails individually numbered through, the manufacture, the powder coating, or anodizing, and then the placement.

They start using spacing blocks, or they cut the rail and add an insert. Either way it just degrades quickly to a rickety railing many stories up.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

[tapwelder]

Brett,

I had to do some research, thanks for the homework.

I guess our systems are similar. Most states adopt codes from the Internation Codes Council (ICC). It was formed in 1994 to produce one comprehensive building code. It is now comprised of three other building and fire organizations: Building Officials and Code Administrator. Southern Building Codes Congress International (SBCCI) and International Conference of Building Officials (ICBO).
Here's where I obtained the above information. http://www.nashville.gov/codes/news/news002.html

Anyway, I just go the the code office for print outs of what ever I am dealing with. I purchased a code book about 6 years. It is free. Paid $70 for it and only needed 3/4 of a page of information.

Also, even within Nashville different agencies have different requirements. For instance, Our housing authority (Manage and build low income housing) has stricter code requirements than Nashville residential codes.

[Brett]

This is of my web site Tapwelder:

A brief outline of our Code:

A balustrade must be installed if the difference in finished floor levels is greater than 1.0m.This includes the stairs giving access. Stair balustrading need to be all the way down to the connecting floor level and not stop at place where difference is less than 1.0m
Balustrading must be no less than 1.0m high; stairs may be 860mm measured vertically up from the imaginary line of nosings. There is a 500mm transitional zone allowed for the stair balustrading to reach the 1.0m required for level. In addition if a landing is less than 500mm, 860mm height will suffice.
A ball of 125mm diameter must not be able to pass through any part of the balustrade. There are tests in place to determine at specified forces the deflection allowed. This means the spacing’s of balusters are often closer.
If the balustrade is protecting a fall of greater than 4.0m at any given point the balustrade must not incorporate horizontal or near horizontal members between 150mm and 760mm from finished floor level. Thus no wire assemblies comply. This also means that a balustrade on a hob needs to be 1.0m under these circumstances whereas if the fall is less than 4.0m the hob can form part of the balustrade. The tension, wire spacings, post spacings, wire construction, wire tension and wire diameter is laid out in table form in the BCA. Generally 316 stainless steel alloy, 3.2mm diameter, 1/19 lay wire needs to be installed at 80mm centres with the posts no more than 1500mm apart. The required tension in this case is 1330 Newtons, or a 5mm deflection if a 2kg mass is suspended mid span of the posts.
Glass assemblies in balustrading need comply with ASA 1288-2006. This code specifies that 6mm toughened glass must not have an unsupported span of greater than 980mm, 8mm glass 1300mm and 10mm glass 1650mm. All glass balustrading must now have a top rail, semi framed and frameless assemblies cannot be used anymore.
Pool fencing is different .Basically it needs to be 1200mm high with no less than a 100mm gap anywhere. Gates must swing away from the pool, not towards and must be self closing with a self latching child proof latch. Glass panels are allowed to span a greater distance : 6mm toughened is 1240mm , 8mm is 1600mm and 10mm is 2000mm.You may have glass assemblies without a top rail ,so semi framed and frameless glass is allowable.

[Brett]

Here in the United States in the North Easter region. Most handrail or guard rail plans call for a sphere of 4" not fitting through the railings.

However your job can be shot down if the inspector can push a four inch sphere through the balusters. So the better builders or Project management companies call for 3.5 inches between balusters.

So often the railing guys will put the 1/2" bars four inches on center.

We are allowed 5" ball but under a specified lateral force . There fore if you had exactly 125mm daylight it would fail as any deflection will have it fail.

One thing that bothers me for the new apartments is that they allow two and three foot balcony rails to be placed on top of what they call "low walls",. The plans will read "Aluminum rails typical, Two foot high, Low Wall, One foot railing.

My thinking is that if you are really worried about a kid just walking up and climbing. The rails will have to be at least 42 inches above the "low wall". Since this will not look good and keep an adult from looking over the rail. They let it fly. So it is all kind of a big joke really.

Our code directly addresses that situation if the fall is over 4.0m about 13'

Another thing that I notice is that once deck furniture is placed on these tiny decks they are making today, a kid can just trampoline off the chase lounge, or deck chair, and go sailing. You have no choice but to have the furniture next to an outside wall.

You cannot legislate to stop people storing step ladders on their balconies either...cant see a solution there myself.

You are also allowed to have horizontal bars or pipes four inches apart. And I am sure any kid can climb those. So again it is really something that needs to be addressed, not with laws. Laws that are for fools that cannot govern their own greed. But with leadership in facing the actual problem. Laws do not stop greedy people, greedy people make the laws.

As said above we have codes that address that ,though I don't see it as greed more the desire for an aesthetically pleasing balustrade.

Most builders I know would much rather build it right, according to a real set of plans. Rather then just wing it with basically no technical set of plans at all. It has been many years since I have seen a professional set of drawings. Builders work off sketches at best. And they are usually highly inaccurate.

Another really important factor is that the building material they are using now on multi story buildings is that thin fiber board. It really has no structural value or real strength.

When you try to fasten hand rails to it. They often loosen up and pull out. Building inspectors pick up quick, and start trends to build the low walls. So that the railing is not the only thing you have between you and the ground. The problem is that a kid can climb the low wall, and then get over the one foot railing.

If I design the rails to be built, I build them higher. I also like to use bracing bars back to a 2"x6" metal exterior stud in the wall. Sometimes that is shot down though. Then they are just relying on that flaky fiber board. It is like asbestos shingles of old, but a bit thicker. Really good framers purposely put metal studs behind the spot railings will be placed. But even a single metal stud is a bit of a weak point. And often they omit or misplace them.

If all you do is balustrading these issues are generally easy to overcome with experience and proper planning.

Normally we like to diamond core into the cement deck and use metal bars back to a stud. The bar covers probing holes to find a stud as well. And you can make the railing a bit smaller so it does not have to be an exact fit. Something that only a few guys on our island can do, by actually seeing many miss the mark. The bracing bars allow for some space between the rails and the wall.

When you are talking about measuring and building rails for a high rise, you might have 75 rails. And all will be different sizes. They just don't allot enough money for someone to coordinate 75 rails individually numbered through, the manufacture, the powder coating, or anodizing, and then the placement.

They start using spacing blocks, or they cut the rail and add an insert. Either way it just degrades quickly to a rickety railing many stories up.


Again, If all you do is balustrading these issues are generally easy to overcome with experience and proper planning.There is no lack of roughies over here either.

[William McCormick Jr]

Pool fencing is different .Basically it needs to be 1200mm high with no less than a 100mm gap anywhere. Gates must swing away from the pool, not towards and must be self closing with a self latching child proof latch. Glass panels are allowed to span a greater distance : 6mm toughened is 1240mm , 8mm is 1600mm and 10mm is 2000mm.You may have glass assemblies without a top rail ,so semi framed and frameless glass is allowable.

Here they want a pool rail to have an exterior arc that does not allow a small child that can climb well, to be able to just climb over. As he goes higher he will put himself at an angle that makes it hard to climb.

I believe this was an insurance company request.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WeldingWeb/pr1.JPG

But you can see that if you do it this way, you cannot make the gate hinge outward.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Brett]

Here they want a pool rail to have an exterior arc that does not allow a small child that can climb well, to be able to just climb over. As he goes higher he will put himself at an angle that makes it hard to climb.



But you can see that if you do it this way, you cannot make the gate hinge outward.



We have very strict and detailed specs for our pool fencing . I only touched on them.That one would not comply for at least 6 reasons I can see without looking carefully .
You would get your nuts cut off!
They may even transport you to USA! :laugh:

[Brett]

I must be missing something...
Why couldn't you have the gate swinging out? (Ignoring the fact that you would need to change the side your latch is on)

[William McCormick Jr]

I must be missing something...
Why couldn't you have the gate swinging out? (Ignoring the fact that you would need to change the side your latch is on)

It is the physical shape of the fence. Did you see the way it overhangs on the top? Imagine it trying to swing open the other way. It cannot physically.

It is just the shape of the gate and fence that cannot allow it.



Sincerely,


William McCormick