HF helmets? OK to use???

[Tim M]

I had posted this on another thread but realized I should have started a new one as to not Hijack the original thread with my question. Hope this has not been discussed.

While on a similar subject of eye care here, is the Harbor Freight auto darkening $69.00 with supposed adjustable lens shade tint a safe helmet to use?

I have one and have been doing a few small projects at home. It has a knob that goes from a shade of 9-13 I believe. I can't tell a difference in darkness no matter what number I put it on.

I know it is a cheap helmet, but is it safe for welding is my concern and question?

What is a decent helmet to buy that is "safe" to use. I don't mind spending a few bucks as you only get one set of eyes but I'm also a hobbyist and don't necessarily need "the best" on the market as I don't weld for a living.

Any thoughts?

Any web addresses to helmets worth buying?

Thank you,

Tim

[DSW]

Tim it's probably been covered a number of times. Some guys swear by them, others at them. I've heard many who say they have been flashed by them when the sensor was blocked. I have seen top name brand helmets at just a bit over the price you have listed when on sale. The $10-30 difference to me isn't worth the chance in my opinion. Need a 2nd hat for occasional use by a friend who needs to help hold something then maybe, but I'd go with an old fixed shade hood thats a lot cheaper.

I have an old fixed shade lincoln that will soon be replaced. I figure to spend some extra money and get a top of the line Miller or speedglas. My eyes are to important to risk damage by a cheap hood. You may not notice the damage for a while but is it worth the risk for you?

[Engloid]

If you buy an auto darkening hood that says it darkens in 1/1000th a second, are you sure that your particular hood was checked at the factory? Maybe they only check 10% and yours wasn't in that.

How often do you plan to have it checked to make sure the timing is fast enough to protect your eyes?

WHere will you have it checked?

How will you know when it starts to fail? When your eyesight does?

If you're dead set on an auto darkening hood, I wouldn't pinch pennies on one. If it were me, I'd put my eyesight on the line for nothing less than a Miller, Lincoln, or ESAB hood.

[h2oboy]

Safety is the one catogory that you should never try to save money on. Your eyes, hearing, and lungs are not replaceable.
If you want to save money while buying a reliable brand of helmets try these guys.
http://www.weldingsuppliesfromioc.com/servlet/StoreFront
Majority of time you will pay less with them, no taxes, no shipping charges.
Or what I would sudgest if find a hood that you like from them, and head to the local welding supply and see if they can give you the same price. Personal service and their advice is worth paying tax.

[Cipher]

Do any of you have any proof that a slow helmet is "dangerous"? Any proof at all that a slow helmet will cause blindness? Any proof that a slow helmet will cause flash burns?

All Auto Darkening helmets provide 100% protection, doesn't matter how slow or fast they are, doesn't even matter if the go dark.

[Engloid]

Do any of you have any proof that a slow helmet is "dangerous"? Any proof at all that a slow helmet will cause blindness? Any proof that a slow helmet will cause flash burns?
Are you going to ask us to prove that looking directly into the sun harms your eyesight too? :rolleyes:

Do you think the manufacturers brag about reaction times just because it's a race to see who can be fastest?


All Auto Darkening helmets provide 100% protection, doesn't matter how slow or fast they are, doesn't even matter if the go dark.
Pull the batteries out of your hood, and do about 10hrs of spray arcat about 26 volts...then tell me how it blocks 100% of UV rays and won't hurt your eyes. Even a flash (with auto dark hood and battery out) can leave you seeing spots for an hour. You've got to be a moron if think that pain in your eyes that results doesn't damage your eyes.

Your first post doesn't give a very good first impression.

[Cipher]

Pull the batteries out of your hood, and do about 10hrs of spray arcat about 26 volts...then tell me how it blocks 100% of UV rays and won't hurt your eyes. Even a flash (with auto dark hood and battery out) can leave you seeing spots for an hour. You've got to be a moron if think that pain in your eyes that results doesn't damage your eyes.

You may see spots, you will also see spots from wearing a shade that isn't dark enough, but it will not damage your eyes.

Again, find me proof - there is none. All helmets that meet ANSI Z87.1 standards provide 100% UV/IR protection AT ALL TIMES.

You can see spots by looking into a bright flashlight too, but it ain't damaging your eyes.

If you would like to explain to me how an LCD can turn UV protection on and off I'm all ears.


An auto-darkening helmet contains an electronic shutter module. This module contains fixed/static IR (Infra-Red) and UV (Ultraviolet) filters that require no electricity to operate along with an electrically operated LC (Liquid Crystal) light valve or shutter. The LC valve/shutter darkens/lightens when a voltage is applied that re-orients the crystals that are floating in a liquid which is separated by two sheets of glass. The shutter module also contains photocells (light-dependent resistors) or other photosensor that is wired into an electronic control module. The control module detects the bright light emitted by the welding arc and closes (darkens) the LC valve/shutter. A timer circuit lightens the screen again some time (perhaps 100 milliseconds) after the arc goes out and ambient light levels return to normal.

Modern auto-darkening welding helmets have adjustments for sensitivity, shade (darkness achieved when arc triggers helmet), and time delay after arc removal before helmet returns to the normal, non-darkened state.

The sensitivity adjustment controls how readily the helmet darkens when exposed to a bright light source. If the sensitivity adjustment is set too low, the helmet may not darken when exposed to the arc, especially if the arc is small. On the other hand, if the sensitivity is set too high, the helmet may stay darkened when exposed to sunlight, bright room lights, arc flashes from other welders some distance away, etc.

Some auto-darkening welding helmets, especially higher priced ones, allow the user to adjust the "shade" value. One popular helmet allows adjustment between shade 9 and 13. Shade 9 is adequate for small, low intensity arcs, while 13 is used for bright, high energy arcs in dark spaces. The helmet user should initially set the helmet for an intermediate value and adjust the shade value up or down as required to get the best view of the work while welding and above-all to avoid excessive brightness that dazzles or irritates the eyes.



A. Welding arcs emit both IR and UV wavelengths of light. Unprotected from this light, both eye damage and discomfort can occur. Since high-quality auto-darkening helmets provide UV and IR protection even when the helmet is not activated, you are always protected. However, for maximum comfort, look for a high quality helmet that has a response darkening time of 4/10ths of a millisecond. Less than a millisecond is not perceivable by the human eye and will provide the most comfort.


A millisecond is 1/1000th of a second, anything faster isn't perceivable by the human eye.

[DSW]

Do any of you have any proof that a slow helmet is "dangerous"? Any proof at all that a slow helmet will cause blindness? Any proof that a slow helmet will cause flash burns?

All Auto Darkening helmets provide 100% protection, doesn't matter how slow or fast they are, doesn't even matter if the go dark.



All helmets that meet ANSI Z87.1 standards provide 100% UV/IR protection AT ALL TIMES.




There are a lot of things that were considered safe but have been proven hazardous over the long run. Smoking, asbestos, silicosis from dust, black lung from coal, agent orange, welding fumes, shall I continue? The question is "Are you willing to bet 100% that it WON'T hurt you?" That's not a gamble I want to take with my health. I already have some hearing loss from working construction for years. I am sure that if I got a full physical you could find more long term work related injuries. I can stand sore joints. I already need glasses why make it worse if I could prevent it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/weldinglenses.asp
A. Welding arcs emit both IR and UV wavelengths of light. Unprotected from this light, both eye damage and discomfort can occur. Since high-quality auto-darkening helmets provide UV and IR protection even when the helmet is not activated, you are always protected. However, for maximum comfort, look for a high quality helmet that has a response darkening time of 4/10ths of a millisecond. Less than a millisecond is not perceivable by the human eye and will provide the most comfort.

Part of this is not just about slow helmets, its about quality control. In THEORY the helmet is supposed to block UV with out darkening. What if the mfg changed the specs to make it cheaper. We are talking about chinese made helmets with little or no oversight. Are ALL the helmets up to ANSI Z87.1 spec? Can you prove it?

[Cipher]

Part of this is not just about slow helmets, its about quality control. In THEORY the helmet is supposed to block UV with out darkening. What if the mfg changed the specs to make it cheaper. We are talking about chinese made helmets with little or no oversight. Are ALL the helmets up to spec? Can you prove it?

The LCD module, or the part that darkens, has nothing to do with the protection afforded by the UV and IR filters. They are separate components. All the LCD is doing is adjusting the contrast - that's it.

So, if we can agree that the lens that darkens is separate from the lens that provides the protection, then the proof that you need is right there. If they didn't provide all the protection you needed then REGARDLESS of what shade state the helmet was at you would STILL get retinal burns - again, EVEN IF the helmet was DARK, and even if it darkened in 1/100000000th of a second.

Now, if we can't agree that they are different lenses then you need to find me an article saying otherwise. Every manufacturer says they are separate, the technology of LCD says they are separate, and I can find nothing to the contrary. If you can agree they are separate, then you will see, no matter how fast or slow the LCD module is, the filters still do their jobs. UV and IR have nothing to do with you seeing spots - as I said above, look at a bright flashlight in a dark room and you'll see spots, but it ain't gonna hurt you.


You want to talk optics or speed or comfort then I see the point behind paying more for a helmet. But all helmets that meet ANSI are safe. How fast they darken has absolutely nothing to do with the protection of the UV filters.

[DSW]

The question is DO THEY MEET ANSI SPEC? You aren't supposed to import toys containing lead paint into the US. It happened! Do you think that the executives here said " oh well its cheaper, just let the Chinese use the lead paint." No the Chinese made the change and didn't tell anyone. No oversight beyond the fist batch or two. I'll agree IF the meet ANSI spec they should be OK. I don't happen to have a convenient test facility to double check the helmet. Go the HF and look at their recall list some time. You will find quite a few recalls for faulty circuit breaker, fuses, and other items. Why all the recalls? Lack of oversight and quality control. Will your helmet be one of these? I'd rather spend the few extra dollars and know that the helmet actually meets ANSI spec. I guarantee that Miller, Lincoln and the other big names check every batch to be sure they meet spec. If they don't they don't get sold.

[Oldtimer]

DSW, you beat me to it. Personally, with all the junk that comes from China I wouldn't trust a cheap welding hood from there to meet any ANSI spec. Since infrared radiation is what destroys the rods and cones in you eyes you have no way to know if you are damaging your sight since there is no pain. You just slowly go blind. Think about the things that China has already been caught sending to us. Lead based paint on toys and the Heprin recall that could death for example. No welding lenses from China for me, A/D or regular.

[Engloid]

You may see spots, you will also see spots from wearing a shade that isn't dark enough, but it will not damage your eyes.
It may hurt like hell, but it doesn't hurt...really. :rolleyes:
Again, find me proof - there is none. All helmets that meet ANSI Z87.1 standards provide 100% UV/IR protection AT ALL TIMES.
BY DESIGN!!! Do you really think that 100% of these hoods are tested for defects?
A millisecond is 1/1000th of a second, anything faster isn't perceivable by the human eye.
I think you're misinterpreting this. The human eye sees everything...but it may be so fast that the brain doesn't recognize it.

Now we need to debate whether a tree falling makes a sound if nobody's there to hear it.

Are you going to weld for a day without batteries in your auto darkening hood? If not, you're not all that sure, are you?

[Engloid]

But all helmets that meet ANSI are safe.
And all pressure vessels that meet ASME code will not fail?
All buildings that meet building codes will not fail?
All "helmets" are tested fully prior to sale?



The question is DO THEY MEET ANSI SPEC? You aren't supposed to import toys containing lead paint into the US. It happened! Do you think that the executives here said " oh well its cheaper, just let the Chinese use the lead paint." No the Chinese made the change and didn't tell anyone.
Actually, that's what the Chinese media says happened. I was in China when this big crisis went down and that's what the papers there said.

That said, China has little regulation on anything. They are very able to put ANSI stamps on something when they don't even know what it means. For all they know, it may mean "Good Welder" and it's just on there for bling factor.

[MAC702]

...No welding lenses from China for me, A/D or regular.

How about Korea?

[DSW]

Actually, that's what the Chinese media says happened. I was in China when this big crisis went down and that's what the papers there said.

I don't trust OUR media, let alone a media controlled by a government with a record of tring to hide things and put a good face on a issue. Chernoble didn't happen either... at least for a couple of days according to moscow, then it was a minor accident. :laugh: I understand your point however. :D

[Cipher]

It may hurt like hell, but it doesn't hurt...really. :rolleyes:


Quote where I said anything about pain.... Prove to me where a slow helmet will HURT your eyes. Not see spots, actual damage.

BY DESIGN!!! Do you really think that 100% of these hoods are tested for defects?

Do you think that 100% of any helmet from any manufacturer is tested?


Are you going to weld for a day without batteries in your auto darkening hood? If not, you're not all that sure, are you?

Again, find me one bit of evidence that shows the slower hoods are less safe than the faster hoods.

One bit, just one. Find me anything "scientific" and I'll concede.

You can't do it. Matter of fact, I'll give you $50, via PayPal, if you can find such evidence.


Better yet, let's attack this problem from another angle. Light travels 1 foot per nanosecond (give or take a few inches). That's a foot every BILLIONTH of a second. Do you think your hood is fast enough to slow the speed of light? Even the fastest hoods are a fraction of that...

But, it doesn't matter, the speed of the LCD has NOTHING to do with the effectiveness of the UV and IR filter.

I would be VERY surprised if the LCD in even the most expensive "American Made" hood is acutally made in America.

[Cipher]

And all pressure vessels that meet ASME code will not fail?
All buildings that meet building codes will not fail?
All "helmets" are tested fully prior to sale?

So, your big money helmet won't fail either, huh?

All the negatives you can apply to the cheap lens you can apply to the expensive lens. You think just because an American company is using a certain lens means it's any safer than a lens from somewhere else?

Do you honestly think an American company looks out for you?


You can defend your high dollar hood all you want. The bigger price tag means better controls, better comfort and better quality. However, the cheap hood sold by HF is every bit as safe as the most expensive hood. In a country as sue happy as ours it couldn't be any other way. Truth be told, for a hobbyist who sees a few hours of welding a MONTH, the HF helmet is fine.

The lenses that were sold on the high dollar Hobart's a few years ago are the same lenses being sold on the HF helmets of today. Do you think for one minute, that if those lenses weren't SAFE there wouldn't be enormous legal ramifications for the company who imported them?

[Cipher]

The question is DO THEY MEET ANSI SPEC? You aren't supposed to import toys containing lead paint into the US. It happened! Do you think that the executives here said " oh well its cheaper, just let the Chinese use the lead paint."

Again, regardless of the speed of the helmet, if the thing didn't provide 100% UV/IR protection you'd know it, period. There wouldn't be a doubt in anyone's mind. If the hood did not provide protection there'd be a bunch of home hobbyist with messages all over the place about how they got burned.

There's no such post, anywhere. There is no evidence that cheap helmets do not provide the protection needed from a welding helmet.


It is absolutely absurd to expect a home hobbyist, who welds an hour or less a month, to buy a $300+ helmet when the $50+ helmet will protect his eyes just the same. It may not be as comfortable, but he ain't wearing the thing all day either.

[Engloid]

So, your big money helmet won't fail either, huh?
My $26 FIXED SHADE lens will not fail. :rolleyes:
All the negatives you can apply to the cheap lens you can apply to the expensive lens. You think just because an American company is using a certain lens means it's any safer than a lens from somewhere else?
Have you been to China and seen their regulations on manufactured products? They don't have any. Knock off goods are available everywhere. See if you can get away with mass production of knock off Louis Vuitton purses here in the US.

Do you know what ANSI stands for? Hint: China starts with a C and there's no C in it.
Do you honestly think an American company looks out for you?
They're at least conscience of getting sued for defective products. The chinese aren't. Try to sue a chinese company and see how far you get with it.
Do you think for one minute, that if those lenses weren't SAFE there wouldn't be enormous legal ramifications for the company who imported them?
Lets look at this situation. Lets say you're a pipe welder and you have worked on 45 construction jobs in your carreer. On one job, 15 years ago, you got an unusual exposure to a gas in a paper mill. It didn't affect you at the time, and it wasn't enough you even got sick. You now have problems breathing, and decide to sue. Don't you think that the one company you sue will claim that it happened somewhere else in your career?

Now lets go back to these hoods. If you have LONG TERM damage to your eyes, don't you think they will claim it was from a hood you used before or after theirs? This isn't a car accident, where you can nail down the date and time damage happened.

[Engloid]

There's no such post, anywhere. There is no evidence that cheap helmets do not provide the protection needed from a welding helmet.
At one time, there was no evidence the world was round. Those that said it was round were believed to be fools.

Are you ready to spend 10hrs welding without your battery yet, or are you still beating your dead horse?

[Cipher]

My $26 FIXED SHADE lens will not fail. :rolleyes:

Then you have no dog in this fight, do you?


Do you know what ANSI stands for? Hint: China starts with a C and there's no C in it.

But, the company that imports that lens and uses it is bound by the ANSI standards.


They're at least conscience of getting sued for defective products. The chinese aren't. Try to sue a chinese company and see how far you get with it.

See above. The company that imports the lens or helmet would be/is liable. If McDonalds is liable for the hot coffee, the importer is liable for a defective lens.


Lets look at this situation. Lets say you're a pipe welder and you have worked on 45 construction jobs in your carreer. On one job, 15 years ago, you got an unusual exposure to a gas in a paper mill. It didn't affect you at the time, and it wasn't enough you even got sick. You now have problems breathing, and decide to sue. Don't you think that the one company you sue will claim that it happened somewhere else in your career?

That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. If the HF helmets did not provide UV/IR protection you'd know the next day.



Look, we can go round and round about this all day. The fact of the matter is, the LCD does not provide UV filtering. Therefor, it doesn't really matter how fast or how slow the LCD is. If the UV/IR filter was not working, or was not present, the LCD wouldn't matter. So, it wouldn't matter if the dang thing darkened in 1/50000000th of a second or 1/10000 of a second.

Again, for someone who uses the hood less than an hour a week, it wouldn't matter.

To answer your other question - you find me any evidence to the contrary, that a slow helmet will DAMAGE your eyes, and I'll weld with the batteries removed to prove you wrong.

[Cipher]

Pull the batteries out of your hood, and do about 10hrs of spray arcat about 26 volts...then tell me how it blocks 100% of UV rays and won't hurt your eyes.

I'll quote this again. Find my any literature that says the speed of the LCD affects the UV filter and I'll weld without my batteries. Every manufacturer says they are separate, yet you know better, right.... :o

[Cipher]

At one time, there was no evidence the world was round. Those that said it was round were believed to be fools.

I heard that women were banished to the barn "back in the day" during "that time". I also heard that a midevil cure for the clap involved a hot poker. It's also been said that we've never been to the moon. Once upon a time, someone said there would be no need for home computers.

We've wisened up since then, haven't we....

[daddy]

A friend of mine borrowed my Jackson EQC Journeyman and burned about half a dozen 1/8" 7018 without pushing the power button. He didn't know where it was, or that you had to turn it on. It didn't seem to cause any permanant damage to his recently laser surgery corrected eyes, but I have no way to measure or prove that. He was MUCH happier after I showed him how to turn it on, even though all the fellas were laughing their butts off.:D

[Engloid]

But, the company that imports that lens and uses it is bound by the ANSI standards.
Do you really think HF cares about ANSI?
See above. The company that imports the lens or helmet would be/is liable. If McDonalds is liable for the hot coffee, the importer is liable for a defective lens.
It's easy to prove the temp of coffee...and not nearly as easy to proove where eye damage came from. Therefore, the risk of getting sued is not nearly as great, is it?

It's your eyes. If you want to believe that your lens blocks all UV rays, that's fine. The reality of it is that you cannot find me any evidence of that.

[Cipher]

The reality of it is that you cannot find me any evidence of that.

The reality is you can't find proof to defend your position. My very first thread asked if you had proof, and the only thing you can come up with is that an American distributor doesn't follow ANSI guidelines, and everything made in China is crap. I ask you again, do you really think the lens in a Miller helmet comes 100% from America?

I've quoted websites backing my side of this up, I've stated the ANSI standards that any helmet sold in the states has to follow. Either back your side up, or quit telling home hobbyist that only a $300+ helmet is going to keep them safe.

[Engloid]

The reality is you can't find proof to defend your position.
...and you haven't proven yours either. The difference in you and me is I choose to err on the side of safety. Good luck in your way. There's many dead or terminally ill people that believed what a manufacturer told them. Ever hear of asbestos?
My very first thread asked if you had proof, and the only thing you can come up with is that an American distributor doesn't follow ANSI guidelines, and everything made in China is crap.
That's not what I said.

I ask you again, do you really think the lens in a Miller helmet comes 100% from America?
You never asked that, and I haven't inspected one to find out. If you think the the overall quality of products from China are the same as what we make in the US, you're very wrong.
I've quoted websites backing my side of this up, I've stated the ANSI standards that any helmet sold in the states has to follow.
As I said before...do you think they test EVERY lens?
Either back your side up, or quit telling home hobbyist that only a $300+ helmet is going to keep them safe.
I never said that either, did I? Please speak for yourself and quit misrepresenting my feelings and statements. :rolleyes:

[Oldtimer]

Use what you want because you are not doing my eyes any harm when you do. I agree if the lens passes UV you will know it, probably that evening or by night. If it lets IR through you won't know it for years until your eyesight begins to fail. It is just like using a cutting torch or welding with O/A without eye protection. Do it long enough and you won't be able to see well at all.

[DSW]

Either back your side up, or quit telling home hobbyist that only a $300+ helmet is going to keep them safe.

It's imposible to prove a negitive and you know it. Can you prove that it won't, hurt some one? No. As far as I can tell no one suggested that he buy a $300+ helmet. I made no such inference in my first responce.

I have seen top name brand helmets at just a bit over the price you have listed when on sale. The $10-30 difference to me isn't worth the chance in my opinion. Need a 2nd hat for occasional use by a friend who needs to help hold something then maybe, but I'd go with an old fixed shade hood that's a lot cheaper.


Note the difference in price. I can get a miller hobbyist helmet in black for about $79 on sale at my LWS. Is the extra money for piece on mind wasted? If you also read my post you will see that I noted that there might be a use for a HF helmet if he chose to get one. I left it up to the OP to make his own decision.

No offence, but if you want to fight and argue with people please go away. All of us here want to offer reasonable curtious advise to those asking questions. All the rest of us have done is to make some observations. You seem to want to pick a fight for some reason. If that is not what you are trying to do, I am sorry if I misunderstand your comments, but that's the way I and others are reading it. There are plenty of other places for you to go if you want to argue.

Please keep these thoughts in mind in future posts. I believe that almost everyone here will agree that we can disagree on points. Most of us do it in a reasonable and civilized manor. Those that don't, are asked to conform to standards set by the forum or asked to leave.

Thank you for your time and patience.

[Qucifer]

I have one, and it works fine. I have welded for hours with it, many starts and stops, and not had a problem. I used to use a fixed shade helmet, and bought this one 3 years ago not expecting much, but now its the only one I use. Buy one and try it, and if you dont like it, take it back. Just save your reciept.

[Cipher]

No offence, but if you want to fight and argue with people please go away. All of us here want to offer reasonable curtious advise to those asking questions. All the rest of us have done is to make some observations. You seem to want to pick a fight for some reason. If that is not what you are trying to do, I am sorry if I misunderstand your comments, but that's the way I and others are reading it. There are plenty of other places for you to go if you want to argue.


So, it's not ok to try and save the OP some money? It's not ok to state that the safety factor is there? It's not ok to point out that the lens speed and filtering capabilities aren't one and the same?

I can stay here, but I have to agree and can't cause waves? Nice.....



Please keep these thoughts in mind in future posts. I believe that almost everyone here will agree that we can disagree on points. Most of us do it in a reasonable and civilized manor. Those that don't, are asked to conform to standards set by the forum or asked to leave.

Thank you for your time and patience.

I'd like you to show me where I was uncivilized or disrespectful. If I remember, I was called a moron, yet I did no such name calling.

Don't argue with the old-timers or you'll be thrown out. Nice attitude, shows a complete lack of backbone though.

[Cipher]

That's not what I said.


That's been your argument the entire time. HF doesn't care about ANSI and China makes crap.

Point of the matter is, if that helmet that HF sells is marked ANSI, it darn well better follow those standards. Otherwise I'm sure HF would be put out of business very soon. There are hundreds of people (if not many, many more) that are using those hoods, all without issue. I'm confused as to why Miller or SpeedGlass or any other big name helmet is somehow more bound to ANSI that an imported helmet. Is a Ford truck held to some higher standard then a Toyota truck?

Because it doesn't say "Miller" on the side of it must mean it's not going to protect you, huh...


You never asked that, and I haven't inspected one to find out. If you think the the overall quality of products from China are the same as what we make in the US, you're very wrong.


Yes, I did ask that, well I pointed out that "I would be VERY surprised if the LCD in even the most expensive "American Made" hood is acutally made in America." So, the China VS. US point is moot right now unless 100% of that lens is made in the US.

I'm not asking about QA, I'm asking if you believe every component of that "American Made" hood is made int he US.


As I said before...do you think they test EVERY lens?


Do you think Miller does? Moot point.

Is Miller somehow more liable if something goes wrong than HF? If I go out and buy a Cadillac Escalade and get hurt driving in it, would they be more liable than if I got hurt driving a Yugo?


I never said that either, did I? Please speak for yourself and quit misrepresenting my feelings and statements. :rolleyes:

I asked for proof that those hoods weren't every bit as safe as the high dollar ones. You have been the biggest voice trying to say otherwise. Is that not saying a cheap hood isn't going to keep the OP safe? Otherwise, what are you arguing about?


There is no proof, anywhere, that a helmet bought at HF is less safe than a helmet bought at a local supply. A slow(er) helmet is not any less safe than a fast(er) helmet since the LCD and filter is separate. That's been my argument this entire thread. I can quote manufacturer websites, I can quote standards and I can point out the many who have and use those helmets without issue as my proof that the helmets are safe.

Is there anything other than your personal feelings about China that you can offer to the contrary?

[Broccoli1]

Miller Hoods/ lenses are made in Korea
:cool2:

[Broccoli1]

Hobart Hoods too

[DSW]

So, it's not ok to try and save the OP some money? It's not ok to state that the safety factor is there? It's not ok to point out that the lens speed and filtering capabilities aren't one and the same?

I can stay here, but I have to agree and can't cause waves? Nice.....

I'd like you to show me where I was uncivilized or disrespectful. If I remember, I was called a moron, yet I did no such name calling.

Don't argue with the old-timers or you'll be thrown out. Nice attitude, shows a complete lack of backbone though.

Cipher, were any of these things stated? No. If you will note I said that there were good reasons for getting the less expensive helmet. I even suggested away he could save money and still get a good name brand helmet. All have agreed that if the units meet specs they are safe. All we have said is do they meet specs? I said it was acceptable to disagree. Many of us frequently disagree, sometimes more vocally than others. However we all try and do so in a less combative tone. Your tone has been in my opinion, and that of others here, has been rude. I have give you the opportunity to show that you have been misunderstood and you choose to twist what I have said to argue and prove a point that doesnt exist.

All of your posts seem to prove my point in my opinion as far as being uncivilized. Have you made any attempt to play nice with others? I have. No one has said that you can not argue with those of us that have been around. Nothing was said about arguing, just being courteous. You could choose to word your responses differently but obviously choose not to for some reason. Instead you continue to twist what has been said and try to pick fights.

I have looked thru the post and yet fail to see where you were called a moron. If it is there and I missed it, I am sorry, but I find rereading all of this less than fun. I note that you chose to imply that those of us who feel offended are spineless. That is not the point.

When some people cross the line they are asked to tone it down. I have chosen to politely ask this of you. Those who continue to show antisocial behavior towards the group are asked by the moderators to conform to the standards to which we have all agreed to live by. Those that continue to fail to do so are censured. You will note that this action has had to be taken recently on some members. http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=21319 Not all agree with the action taken, but this is what happens to those who don't play by the rules.

I really wish that this would end and that all of us can work together and learn from one another. I am putting out my hand and asking you to do the same. I would appreciate it if you would think carefully about how you choose to respond. Will you choose to accept my offer of friendship and hospitality and respond in a manner that shows this, or will you choose to try and belittle me and choose to twist what I have said and confirm the opinion that we believe that you have shown so far? I am not asking you to change your argument, I'm not asking for an apology, I'm just asking if you want to join us and work together.

Thank you for your time.

To all of the others reading this I apologize for all of this. I am sure that Engloid and myself never wanted this to go so far.

[Cipher]

Cipher, were any of these things stated? No. If you will note I said that there were good reasons for getting the less expensive helmet. I even suggested away he could save money and still get a good name brand helmet. All have agreed that if the units meet specs they are safe. All we have said is do they meet specs? I said it was acceptable to disagree. Many of us frequently disagree, sometimes more vocally than others. However we all try and do so in a less combative tone. Your tone has been in my opinion, and that of others here, has been rude. I have give you the opportunity to show that you have been misunderstood and you choose to twist what I have said to argue and prove a point that doesnt exist.

All of your posts seem to prove my point in my opinion as far as being uncivilized. Have you made any attempt to play nice with others? I have. No one has said that you can not argue with those of us that have been around. Nothing was said about arguing, just being courteous. You could choose to word your responses differently but obviously choose not to for some reason. Instead you continue to twist what has been said and try to pick fights.

I have looked thru the post and yet fail to see where you were called a moron. If it is there and I missed it, I am sorry, but I find rereading all of this less than fun. I note that you chose to imply that those of us who feel offended are spineless. That is not the point.

When some people cross the line they are asked to tone it down. I have chosen to politely ask this of you. Those who continue to show antisocial behavior towards the group are asked by the moderators to conform to the standards to which we have all agreed to live by. Those that continue to fail to do so are censured. You will note that this action has had to be taken recently on some members. http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=21319 Not all agree with the action taken, but this is what happens to those who don't play by the rules.

I really wish that this would end and that all of us can work together and learn from one another. I am putting out my hand and asking you to do the same. I would appreciate it if you would think carefully about how you choose to respond. Will you choose to accept my offer of friendship and hospitality and respond in a manner that shows this, or will you choose to try and belittle me and choose to twist what I have said and confirm the opinion that we believe that you have shown so far? I am not asking you to change your argument, I'm not asking for an apology, I'm just asking if you want to join us and work together.

Thank you for your time.

To all of the others reading this I apologize for all of this. I am sure that Engloid and myself never wanted this to go so far.

I'm sorry, but I have not twisted anything said by anyone to pick a fight, please quote where I have. My argument has been the same since post one.

I was told the same thing when I was looking for a hood, only the most expensive would keep you "safe". I did my own research and found the truth. Fact of the matter is, there is a lot of misinformation floating about in regards to cheap hoods, I simply asked for proof that those hoods are unsafe, and nobody has proven they are, not even close. There are numerous threads on numerous boards that say the same thing - all helmets have UV/IR filters, and those filters are not based on the speed on the LCD. Even the cheapie hood sold at HF will protect your eyes. And it will do so regardless of LCD speed or even if it goes dark.

It's simply absurd to ask a home hobbyist, who sees less time in a hood a month than a pro sees in a day, to spend big bucks on a helmet when a cheap one will meet his need. It's akin to having a pro mechanic tell a weekend wrencher than a SnapOn box is the only way to go.

The original poster said he was a hobbyist and that he didn't want to spend a lot of money on a hood, he just wanted to know if the hoods were safe. The next three posts, your included, alluded to the fact that cheap hoods aren't safe.

I'm not arguing that HF sells cheaper items than other stores, but for the weekend warriors their tools are more than adequate in most situations.

By the way, I bought my helmet at my LWS, it's the same dang hood sold at HF, the exact same thing. Sure, it wasn't very comfortable, but $15 more for the Hobart headgear makes a world of difference.


I'm not twisting anything, everything I've said has been in direct response to something said to me. Are you suggesting that since I'm new to the board I should back down to those with a higher post count? Is that how this board is ran? I've not been disrespectful, I've not flamed anybody, yet because I'm arguing a point you are suggesting I will be thrown off the board?

And the accusation at the end of your post was a nice touch. Are you suggesting that I wanted this to go this far? Have I been arguing with myself here?

I came here and asked for proof, the only proof I've been offered is that the hood is made in China and sold in HF. That's a pretty weak argument.

Now, if we can agree that if the hood meets spec it could be considered safe then we can all walk away happy. Weather it's a cheap hood or a high dollar hood, if the spec is met then the hood is safe - yeah, I'll agree to that.

[Tim M]

Well, I too apologize for posting the question. I never thought that it would have caused such a ruckus.

I'm learning that a lot of folks on here are very strongly opinionated and that leads to some pretty confrontational debates.

I Didn't realize or consider that when I asked the question.

Just wanted to know if it was safe to use as a hobbyist or if I should buy a "better" one.

I'm sorry for creating this mess. Perhaps the mods should lock this and we should all move on and put it behind us.

I thank you all for your input and information.

Sorry,

Tim

[Cipher]

I don't think you have anything to apologize for.

[DSW]

Tim don't feel sorry for your original post! You asked a valid question. I think Cipher would agree with me here. The rest of us just got carried away. it happens some times unfortunately. Personal safety is something all of us feel strongly about. Don't not post a question because you feel that you may start a ruckus by accident. I believe there are no domb questions if you truly don't know.

Cipher Thank you for your reply. Nothing was ment towards you by the last part, I just felt that I should apologise to the others on the board for helping to continue this. ( I actually thought long and hard about including that part but felt I owed it to the others here.) I appreciate the tone of this last mesage, I am sorry if you felt that you were being singled out by being new. That was not the case. I can understand now why you might have strong feelings towards this issue from your last post and may have taken our comments the wrong way from how they were intended.

Edit: Cipher I see you posted while I was typing mine. Glad to see we agree.

[Broccoli1]

Buy a pair of Safety Glasses to wear under the hood- you have more to fear from a sliver of metal or a grinding scud than damage from UV & IR wearing a HF hood. (Good Practice with any hood)

and they also provide UV protection:drinkup:

[MAC702]

...and they also provide UV protection:drinkup:

Try welding at night and you'll see why Ed's advice is good. The same light you see BOUNCING around at night is also doing that during the day. Clear wraparound safety glasses should be standard equipment under any hood.

[Jonesy70]

I have used alot of auto darkening lenses...including a harbor frieght lense...I feel you get what you pay for...I love my nexgen!!! Its heavy but it has all of the functions that I like...I like the speedglas more but I don't want to spend THAT much!! The cheeper lences don't have the clearity that alot of the more expensive ones have!! HF hoods are the better of the el cheepo's!! if you are going to weld all of the time...I suggest you buy a better hood and lense...if you are just using it around the garage...then stick with the HF!!

Oh by the way...I have been using auto's for about 15 years and I still see fine...im not blind and unless the batteries went dead or i welded out of the sensor range...I never got flashed!!

[Engloid]

That's been your argument the entire time. HF doesn't care about ANSI and China makes crap.
Nice twist of words.
Point of the matter is, if that helmet that HF sells is marked ANSI, it darn well better follow those standards.
Or what? I really want to know the answer to this one. I want to know how you will know it doesn't meet those standards. I want to know how you will know if the design meets the standard, as well as how YOUR particular hood meets those design specifications. I know you can't answer this, can you?
Otherwise I'm sure HF would be put out of business very soon. There are hundreds of people (if not many, many more) that are using those hoods, all without issue.
Very soon? So you don't see that damage to your eyes can be a LONG TERM thing?
I'm confused as to why Miller or SpeedGlass or any other big name helmet is somehow more bound to ANSI that an imported helmet.
They are more likely to get sued, and therefore more likely to care about the quality and safety of their product. Why is that so hard to understand?
Is a Ford truck held to some higher standard then a Toyota truck?
You think that a plant that makes welding hoods will have as rigorous a quality program as that of an automotive plant? That's not a fair comparison.

Because it doesn't say "Miller" on the side of it must mean it's not going to protect you, huh...
I didn't say that either.
I'm not asking about QA, I'm asking if you believe every component of that "American Made" hood is made int he US.
There can be many other factors involved than the origin of manufacture. Miller and the big names probably get their lenses from different companies..and those surely have different quality programs. Some may have none but a welder that fires an arc to ensure that it darkens. Others may have testing labs.

Your agrument is like saying that a Corsica is just as good as a Corvette. Quality costs money. Try to make a Corvette for the cost of a Corsica....or try and go buy it for the same cost. They're both a Chevy, and they both drive...but they're far from giving you the same performance.
Is Miller somehow more liable if something goes wrong than HF? If I go out and buy a Cadillac Escalade and get hurt driving in it, would they be more liable than if I got hurt driving a Yugo?
I've answered these questions already.
I asked for proof that those hoods weren't every bit as safe as the high dollar ones. You have been the biggest voice trying to say otherwise. Is that not saying a cheap hood isn't going to keep the OP safe? Otherwise, what are you arguing about?
You're having a fit, saying that I haven't proven my point...and neither have you.

Hello Pot, meet Kettle. :waving:
There is no proof, anywhere, that a helmet bought at HF is less safe than a helmet bought at a local supply. A slow(er) helmet is not any less safe than a fast(er) helmet since the LCD and filter is separate. That's been my argument this entire thread. I can quote manufacturer websites, I can quote standards and I can point out the many who have and use those helmets without issue as my proof that the helmets are safe.
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR HOOD DOES, NOT WHAT THE MANUFACTURER SAYS IT'S SUPPOSED TO!!!!!!

If you want to continue going in circles, repeating yourself over and over, go ahead...but you will be doing it alone.

[Cipher]

They are more likely to get sued, and therefore more likely to care about the quality and safety of their product. Why is that so hard to understand?

How so? How is Miller more likely to get sued than HF? You keep harping that it's a long term kinda thing - how would you know to sue Miller but not know to sue HF?

We can go round and round till we are both blue in the face. The simple fact of the matter is, there is no proof what-so-ever that the hoods are any more dangerous than a Miller/SpeedGlass/Jackson. There are no hobbyist going blind, and the specs you say they could fail to meet are the same specs Miller could fail to meet. Miller can't test all of their hoods, but HF is supposed to be checking all of their's?

There are plenty of stories of American companies harming, and covering up that harm, their consumer's. To think an American company cares any more for you than a China company is a bit much these days.

Tell you what - would you like to put your money where your mouth is? I'll take my hood to wherever it is I need to take it and have it tested, I'll post the results on this board to put this argument to rest once and for all. Care to wager, say $500? How confident are you?

[Engloid]

To think an American company cares any more for you than a China company is a bit much these days.
That statement is truly laughable. :laugh:


Tell you what - would you like to put your money where your mouth is? I'll take my hood to wherever it is I need to take it and have it tested, I'll post the results on this board to put this argument to rest once and for all. Care to wager, say $500? How confident are you?
It's more of a matter of... I don't care. If I had one of those hoods, I may be more interested. Do you care how safe a Corvette is, if you don't have one?

We can go round and round till we are both blue in the face.
Go ahead. I'll just sit back and watch. I am not wasting my time going in circles with you.

[Engloid]

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x157/KGIXXER7/two/motivator3040398.jpg

[Cipher]

Maybe so, but my waffle is bigger

http://d0.biggestmenu.com/00/00/4d/6df396e1b2f8e91c_m.jpg

[Engloid]

I've seen rabbits with better looking pancakes.

http://humour.200ok.com.au/img/pancake_bunny.jpg

[hotrodder]

Buy a pair of Safety Glasses to wear under the hood- you have more to fear from a sliver of metal or a grinding scud than damage from UV & IR wearing a HF hood. (Good Practice with any hood)

and they also provide UV protection:drinkup:

Good advice! :drinkup:

I've no desire to get into this debate- there is no way for any of us to REALLY prove that ADF's are safe (longterm) or not. You either trust the technology (and/or that manufacturers adhere to standards) or not

I just posted this link in another thread (more independant than manufacturers claims at least)... http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_13/faq_radiation.html. No doubt the comments about visible light will get a few comments...

FWIW blocking UV is increadibly easy/cheap. Plain, untreated glass blocks out over 80%. Polycarbonate blocks 100%. Not so sure about IR but again it ain't rocket science and if corners are going to be cut to save money the smart money is on it being saved in the optical qualities- ADF's mean several lenses stacked up (probably 6 or 7 including cover lenses). The difference in clarity between a Speedglas/Optrel etc and a cheap lens is staggering. Sensor quality also varies a lot, bear in mind that cheaper filters usually struggle with low amp welding (especially low amp TIG)

For the truely curious IR is 'seen' by digital cameras...

Now can anyone explain why my Speedglass (bright lights don't set it off, remote controls do) is activated by my laptop screen?

[DSW]

Now can anyone explain why my Speedglass (bright lights don't set it off, remote controls do) is activated by my laptop screen?

I'm thinking it has to do with screen flicker. Too fast for you eye to see but it exists. Just a guess however. Does it darken for flouresent lights? They flicker also as well as many sodium lights.

The remote thing would make me think its especially sensitive to IR. This may also be why it darkens for the laptop. Again just guessing.

[JeffB]

Not to hijack, but maybe get this discussion somewhat back on track. I've been considering an A/D helmet myself. Anybody heard of Hawk? One coworker has a Hawk A/D helmet. It's nothing really fancy, plain black, a fairly small window, $99 at the LWS. Another guy has a Miller Elite, bigger window and fancy paint job, $279. I'm sure there's a big difference in overall quality, but the main question is whether the Hawk would adequately protect my eyes? I don't need pretty graphics, I'll be inside it.

[MAC702]

Are they willing to let you try them both and report to us? Few of us have both a good and a cheap one to do much comparing between them. If you do a good write-up, it'll make a good Sticky.

As far as protection goes, you can see that this is already getting heated. For starters, you're already wearing clear safety glasses anyway. You're really just going for the convenience of the automatic shading of the visible light.

I think the debate centers on the possible long-term effects of the bright visible light that lasts 1/25,000 second every cycle. My guess is you'd do more harm walking outside after you leave the movie theatre, personally.

[David R]

I have been using a HF helmet for years. No problems as long as I am stick or mig welding. For TIG, it flickers, so I can't use it. I have 2 of them as backups Never had any trouble with them except the time I was welding on light pole bases standing on fresh poured blacktop in the sun. I was sweating so much it got into the electronics. The helmet just quit working. I went back to HF, bought another one with the 2 year warranty. I returned the broken one a few days later with no questions asked.

MY two are useless for TIG.

David

[smithboy]

I have used both HF and a brand-name helmet, but I don't own both...I have two AD helmets from HF. One works great...never a problem have I had (little yoda speak)...the other works fine for stick or mig, but when I tig, even at pretty high amps (DON'T ASK ME WHY) I get flashed repeatedly...dab, dab, flash, dab...flash, dab...Since they are pretty close to identical looking, I have just marked the flasher...A friend left his $130 hobart with me a while back and I used it...I can't tell any difference between using it and the HF that works regularly. It does have a battery backup, which neither HF I own has. I live in GA, so cold weather isn't really an issue affecting the AD lenses here as it does in colder climates.

Even though I own two and use them fairly regularly, I tend to agree with Engloid about the issue of quality control. HF probably doesn't test every helmet. With my two, there is an obvious difference in quality that didn't show up immediately. There is also the issue of the COMPLETELY UNKNOWN. Down the road, what will we find out about these helmets...It is something to consider and it's not a trivial matter. We are constantly being presented with new dangers of long-term exposure to things or conditions we previously thought to be pretty safe.

I had a great uncle that was a shipfitter during WWII and built tugboats until he retired in the 1970s. When I was first learning to weld as a teenager, he was already pretty dern old (aka experienced). He told me that he ALWAYS welded with one eye closed. He went on the explain that he had figured if the shield and lens didn't get it all, he'd still have one good eye. I have tried his trick, but I am a marginal weldor as it is...

Any way you slice it, when you purchase safety equipment, you are weighing the cost (a signal of the quality, we hope) against the benefits in the presence of uncertianty. If we KNEW one helmet was just as good as another, there would be no reason to buy the more expensive one. If we knew that the HF helmet was unsafe or substantially inferior to the branded helmets, there would be no reason to buy, even at a pretty low price. Price is sometimes a good signal of quality, and sometimes it's not...hence, we have the thread, "HF tools that don't suck." This just adds to the uncertianty.

The problem here is that we don't have much to go on except our perceptions, which, by the way aren't terribly scientific...You know...I ain't blind yet, the helmet must work fine...hey, where did everyone go!?!?! Turn the lights back on!!!:cool2:

[kbnit]

:laugh:

Funny, my clear safety glasses are stamped as compliant with Z87.1. I'll let you weld with them if you want to. I wouldn't recommend it.

The Z87 compliance is the impact protection. That's what keeps the popping metal from flying through either your $26.00 fixed shade lens, or your $300.00 AD. As you noted in one of your other quotes, "HIGH QUALITY" AD's provide UV and IR protection even when the filter is not darkened. I think this initial thread started with asking about HF hoods. The words "High Quality" and "HF" are mutually exclusive.:laugh:

Unless your AD is certified by the manufacturer to maintain a Shade 5 or higher when not active, you can be exposed to harmful radiation.

Never met a good blind welder yet.....:cool:

[StillBoostin]

I always use my safety glasses when welding. I have the big window auto-darkening HF hood. It gets the job done. It has never flashed me(a good thing). But the head gear broke the 1st month I had it, and I replaced it with a Jackson headgear. Had to drill and tap to make it work. Love it now. Tried to get the Miller elite headgear to work but would have been a lot of trouble cause it has a square hole with a square notch required to make it work. Miller Elite has the most comfortable head gear in my opinion. I have had it about a 8 months and I would buy another one again for a good back up if it ever breaks. $99 is cheap for a good hood. Plus it had the USA flag on it:D.

My little brother has the cheep HF hood and hasn't had a problem yet. If he does I'll be sure to post up.

James

[Engloid]

The thing everybody needs to remember is that vision damage isn't something you often see the next day. It's like emphysema from smoking, or asbestosis...it takes years to see the effects add up.

[Oldtimer]

Well said, Engloid. Of course you are going to be ignored like I was. When you get to my age you will discover there were a lot of warnings you should have heeded in years past.

[Nomand]

The thing everybody needs to remember is that vision damage isn't something you often see the next day. It's like emphysema from smoking, or asbestosis...it takes years to see the effects add up.

Well, there is a problem. Essentially your position can be reduced to: more expensive is more safer. Does not matter what it is - cars, helmets... And no rationale - just be scared - asbestos, smoking, UV. And can not be measured too - well because of that long term...

Well, I am scared already...

[StillBoostin]

I think it makes a good back up hood. Mine is a little better then the $49 el-cheapo hood, I don't care if it get banged up under a car. If and when I buy a Miller Elite or Speedglas 9002x I would hate to scratch up such a nice hood.

James

[Engloid]

Well, there is a problem. Essentially your position can be reduced to: more expensive is more safer. Does not matter what it is - cars, helmets... And no rationale - just be scared - asbestos, smoking, UV. And can not be measured too - well because of that long term...

Well, I am scared already...
Being "scared" is what drives ALL safety concerns, regulations, and rules. I would rather call it safe or cautious than to use the word scared.

[Engloid]

Well said, Engloid. Of course you are going to be ignored like I was. When you get to my age you will discover there were a lot of warnings you should have heeded in years past.

Right. Just like people years ago worked in radioactive areas, went home in the evening thinking it wasn't harmful. I have a grandfather with terminal bone cancer, and he never thought that he was SLOWLY damaging his health every day at work.

Likewise, people wend home thinking that asbestos wasn't hurting them. How many other things can we come up with that are like this? Vioxx, cigarettes, etc..

[Snyperx]

I just picked up one of these helmets for $49 on sale. In the manual under specifications it says "up to shade 14 all the time" for UV/IR protection. That was for the 91212, 91214, 94336, and the 94337 helmets from HF. Is that good/bad?

[MatthewF]

Do any of you have any proof that a slow helmet is "dangerous"? Any proof at all that a slow helmet will cause blindness? Any proof that a slow helmet will cause flash burns?

All Auto Darkening helmets provide 100% protection, doesn't matter how slow or fast they are, doesn't even matter if the go dark.

haha if the hood is slow then obviously more high intensity light and UV will get through the lens then a fast hood.

[StillBoostin]

Here is the one I have. Like I said in my earlier post; I really like it and it has a big window.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q72/stillboostin/Welding%20Equipmnent/P5011845.jpg

James

[rjm60]

:laugh:

Funny, my clear safety glasses are stamped as compliant with Z87.1. I'll let you weld with them if you want to. I wouldn't recommend it.

The Z87 compliance is the impact protection. That's what keeps the popping metal from flying through either your $26.00 fixed shade lens, or your $300.00 AD. As you noted in one of your other quotes, "HIGH QUALITY" AD's provide UV and IR protection even when the filter is not darkened. I think this initial thread started with asking about HF hoods. The words "High Quality" and "HF" are mutually exclusive.:laugh:

Unless your AD is certified by the manufacturer to maintain a Shade 5 or higher when not active, you can be exposed to harmful radiation.

Never met a good blind welder yet.....:cool:

I know this is an old thread but in my search for an adequate helmet for the hobbyist, this Harbor Freight (HF) issue comes up ALL THE TIME!. Also, I wanted to comment on the quote above which is not entirely correct.

The ANSI Z87.1 2003 standard also specifies that eye protection mus "Provide adequate protection against the hazards for which they are designed". So for a welding helmet, adequate protection against IR and UV must be provided, which (if you've read the WHOLE thread) is provided by the lens glass and coatings, not the auto darkening feature (which simply permits you to see what you're doing).

Bottom line is that (Cipher is correct) HF AD helmets are fine for the hobbyist. If you're welding all day long, you may want more, or better, features and you may be willing to pay for them (tax deductable if used for work). Also, if you need a helmet on a Sunday (or even a Saturday) good luck with getting something at your LWS.

[nadogail]

Mark this hobby welder down as another satisfied HF autodark user. I am one day going to buy a 2nd for guests.

[SundownIII]

I've got a Miller Digital Elite, a standard Elite, and a Speedglass 9100xx. Also have several fixed shade hoods and a couple HF, $49.00 specials.

Anyone who's used a "quality hood" will tell you there are several advantages over the el cheapo's. Biggest I've seen is the clarity thru the lens is much better as you go up in quality. The light sensors are better. Response time is faster. Headgear is generally much better. The Digital Elite and the Speedglas are my "go to" hoods for lo amp tig work, especially when dealing with thin SS.

The HF hoods are what I hand to customers/onlookers. Other than that, they stay on the wall.

My eyes are too valuable to me to trust them to the guys who make contaminated baby food, paint kids toys with lead based paints, and produce substandard sheet rock.

I really do believe that there is a "big" difference between a quality hood and one from HF/NT/etc.

[tenpins]

Do any of you have any proof that a slow helmet is "dangerous"? Any proof at all that a slow helmet will cause blindness? Any proof that a slow helmet will cause flash burns?

All Auto Darkening helmets provide 100% protection, doesn't matter how slow or fast they are, doesn't even matter if the go dark.

Yes. Intense UV and visible light exposure will, eventually, cause eye damage. Cataracts, loss of vision. Maybe cancer if you are lucky.

UV and intense visible light damage is cumulative btw, so dont ever miss a chance to portect your eyes.

So yes, it does matter if it goes dark - that visible light will still damage your eyes.

[nadogail]

[QUOTE=tenpins;518193]Yes. Intense UV and visible light exposure will, eventually, cause eye damage. Cataracts,

Had my catarcts fixed about a year ago, Dr. said they were a product of my old age (more than 70), not welding.