Turning Car into Trailer.. Front End Steering?

[Laccery]

I go to a lot of outdoor shows with my local VW group and we are always in need of extra space to carry tents, tables, grills, food, etc etc. I figured I could tow a trailer with my new diesel Jetta that I just got, not to mention I'm the only welder in the group. Any ways. I have a whole spare car with full suspension, axles, and body. This way I could roll up to the meets with a cool looking trailer.

I thought it'd be really easy and just connect up a quick hitch to the front but I forgot that since it has four wheels the front two are going to need to turn with the car.

I kind of have a few vague ideas but I'm not sure if they will work. Since the extra car is a rack and pinion steering car it's got the whole tie rod assembly in there. I could try and use that by having the trailer hitch on pivots and then a bar that goes from the center to the tie rods but that's pretty complicated.

I could make the trailer arm/hitch run on pivots. If I have it V out to a box and at each corner of the box there are pivots then I could just weld the box straight to the hubs/spindles and that should make it turn the right direction. I think this is the best solution but I think the actual hitch part won't have much strength because it will be on a sort of pivot on each corner.

I could also just try and get a single axle up front and then try and pivot it on the center and turn it into a over sized wagon. That seems like a lot of work and tons of clearancing and just overall bad.

Lastly I can just cut out the whole front two wheels and just leave the rear two but that would put a lot of weight onto my car because the rear two wheels are so far back.

If anybody has any input or ideas please post them up. Pictures / sketches are welcomed. :) Thanks a ton.

[fbrown333]

Why not just use an old type tow bar and permanantly attach it to the front of the bug? just a thought.

[Laccery]

If I turn though the car is going to keep going straight right? I'm new to this whole towing scene. I just figured that since there are 4 wheels spread out widely that you'd need to turn the front wheels in order to get the rear car to turn too. I don't see how those tow bars turn the wheel without having somebody else in the rear car "driving".

[DSW]

I was thinking about the tow bar idea also. You can get kits that simply bolt on if required. It's probably the best idea, but the general concept has a few issues.

First your choice of tow vehicle. Regardless of how much weight is placed on your Jetta, what is the rated towing capacity? I'm betting that the Jetta and the "trailer" may end up being very close in weight. That's not really the best idea when towing, especially if the trailer has no brakes. I could most likely flat tow your Jetta or bug behind my old '71Plymouth or either of my trucks and not really notice it much. The big difference is the weight of the tow vehicles. I'll bet the Plymouth weighs 5k, the "lite" F250 9K. When I try and stop the trailer and it starts to try and push my truck to keep going, the truck has the mass to stay put and resist the trailer. Engine power is also a factor. I really doubt the Jetta has the balls to drag around the trailer but I could be wrong. I could be off base on this. I never really thought of any VW as a tow vehicle but with a very small trailer it may work. I'd definitely want trailer brakes however.

Flat towed vehicles have some issues. On some, they tend to wander around behind the tow vehicle. Most of this is due to the fact the front wheels steer. If there are problems with the front suspension, say alignment, it will be significantly worse. No brakes on the tow vehicle. You may run into issues with this from the state. I believe in PA regardless of the registered trailer weight, if the trailer exceeds 50% of the weight of the tow vehicle it needs brakes. It's almost impossible to back up a flat towed vehicle. The fact that the wheels steer is the problem. I've seen it done but you need to be really good backing that type of trailer.

Last issues are your skills and the machine you plan on using. Does the machine really have the umph to weld what you want? Little 110v migs won't really cut it on things like this. Are your welding skills top notch? Can you repeatedly make welds that pass bend tests with the machine you plan on using? Not trying to pick on you but a have no idea what kind of welder you are. There's alot riding on home built trailers, you need to really be able to do a good job. Frequently hobbyist welds look ok but have very little strength and penetration. Your engineering skills had better be very good if you plan on reconfiguring the entire front suspension to weld in some sort of tow system like you described. I see major structural issues with the ideas you have presented so far. :nono:

A small tow dolly might also work for you and solve some of the problems. Some have brakes built in, either electric or hydraulic. They have some resistance in their swivel so the help to take out the flat tow wander that the vehicle itself might have. Yeah they don't look as cool and you add some weight to the system but you are better off in the long run.

Debar is in your part of the country. If you are truely serious about this, it might pay to have him look at doing the work. (not trying to put you on the spot Debar. Just figured if any one might be able to make this work you might. Price you pay for doing good work. :D)

Good luck.

[Laccery]

I'm not to worried about the whole weight thing. The Jetta used to weigh in at 2800 lb's but without an engine, tranny, exhaust, full interior, doors stripped, etc etc I'm pretty sure it's going to be less than half weight. I know I'll be adding a lot of stuff into it because its going to be a trailer but I think I can get it light enough to handle. I thought about shortening the Jetta by taking out the middle section of it to make it look like a shorty Jetta and replacing all of the floors with a lighter replacement and making the rear end floor lower because now it doesn't need the space for the gas tank or muffler. That's all just small ideas but this can get pretty light.

As for power. With the mods I've done to my TDI I should be making in the region of 300ft/lb of torque at about 2500rpm. One would hope that would be enough for flat towing a much lighter car. I've flat towed a Olds Cutlass Supreme before with one of my older Jettas for a short distance and flat towed my '71 Bus about 30 miles with the same older Jetta that only made about 100whp and 90wtq.

The braking does concern me. I've been looking into the tow bars that have the spring loaded bar system that has a pivoting lever that connects to your brake pedal and pulls on it when the spring gets compressed from the rear vehicle transfering it's weight to the front vehicle when stopping. I can deal with brakes later though. That's not a big problem because the trailer will have brakes in the end. There's no way I'd tow a 1k+ vehicle behind my 2.8k vehicle without having brakes on the trailer.

I don't know how to fix the wondering. The only way I can think of that is if I just cut a huge portion of the car off and use just the rear axle and it becomes a 2 wheel trailer instead of being a flat tow "trailer". I read that one guy would hook a bungie cord to the bottom of the steering wheel and one to the floor/seat so that it would auto level straight again easily. That's why I was thinking about a made tow hitch so that it did turn the front wheels when turning.

My welder can handle it. :) I've got a Hobart Handler 187. I've been collecting a lot of different sized scrap metals and testing to see what it takes to get them to stick to each other since they are different thicknesses and for the most part I've gotten a lot better at making good sticking welds. They look like piss but that doesn't really matter as long as they hold.

[DSW]

The hydraulic brake actuators that are designed to be used with heavier trailers may be a better thought. basically a master cylinder attached to the ball coupler that applies the brakes when the trailer pushes on the tow vehicle. I'd just plumb in to the existing brakes and be done with it.

If you welds look like cr@p then I'd say you are not ready. Define "testing to see what it takes to get them to stick to each other since they are different thicknesses..."

Beating on it with a hammer is great to see how you are doing when you are learning, but I'm taking about real testing. Cut, ground and dyed samples that show proper penetration. Coupons welded and the ground and bent in a test jig to see if the weld or the base metal tears. The 187 is a workable machine but still some what marginal at best. Take a look at the thread on the small shop press and you will see what I mean. The welds look ok but they wont stand up to any real force.

As far as the wander I've heard the idea of bungee cords before. I don't have a nee to flat tow anything. I have access to a car dolly and trailers if needed. I do know that the closer the trailer and tow vehicle are to the same weight the bigger the issues will be. Electric brakes are a great solution to a squirrely trailer. You can always apply just the trailer brakes to straighten out the trailer before things get out of hand. Hitting the brakes on a fishtailing trailer is a good way to go from bad to worse, and speeding up if the trailer starts to act up may not be an option as the trailer may get worse as speed goes up. Things to consider, I do not like hydraulic brakes on trailers so haven't looked if elect/ hyd brakes are available.

Again I think your idea is neat, but worry about the execution. The cutting the car and lowering the floor are NOT small ideas. They are major restructuring of the vehicle. Those sort of things are only done by specialized body shops with all the factory info, not by shade tree welders. Maybe it's just the way you are wording your comments that is making me concerned. Much of the tow bar doesn't honestly need to be welded, bolts will do much of it if properly designed. I'd look at some commercial tow bars and see whats available before you try and reinvent the wheel.

I'm kinda hoping some others like Debar or David R will chime in and put in their thoughts about this. I have a strong feeling I know wha tthe responce will be, but think you might understand the ideas better if others put in their thoughts. Shame this isn't in general questions or one of the other forums others look at more often.

[Laccery]

For the scraps and my testing I just weld the two pieces together, slap it into my vice, and slam it with my biggest hammer and see what bends/breaks. I don't have any real testing other than that.

I've been sitting here trying to think of better ideas because the whole thing with the four wheels is bothering me a lot.

If I can't think of anything that would even be remotely easy, I could also make a unique stubby Jetta, take out the rear doors. Then take all the weight out of the engine bay area, connect a hitch up so that it's not sticking to far our of the front of the new trailer, and then the weight distribution shouldn't be to bad. The engine bay area will just be empty and there for cosmetics and will hold part of the hitch length. The front door area is about the same length as the rear trunk area so weight distribution can be had pretty well if I put most of the heavy stuff in the trunk area. As for the front two wheels. I can cut out the suspension, make adjustable pole to raise and lower the wheels from up inside the wheel well to down onto the ground so I can part the trailer with the factory wheels showing at the shows. Now the car works as a regular trailer, has a slightly higher weight distribution in the front but it shouldn't be to bad. It will also be a lot lighter because it's missing a good 2-3 feet of it's middle section. This will also increase safety beacuse it's just a regular hitch now and now it's more versatile because I can back up with it.

Does this sound like a better idea?

[DSW]

Honestly, no. I strongly dislike the idea of you cutting the car apart and trying to put it back together. It's a unibody and the strength comes from the design and the strength of the special steels used. Unfortunately it's not like my truck where you could cut the frame and still have a solid member. Think of it like a truss. The moment you cut it the strength goes to 0. To put it back together you really need to understand how it worked to begin with, not just attach part A to part C and delete part B.

I think if you try and make it a 2 wheel only trailer that the wheels being in the back will cause issues with handling. I think you will end up with a lot more tongue weight than you think. Your Jetta will not take a lot of weight on a hitch. It's a lever every pound that is forward of the rear wheels gets multiplied by the distance to the rear wheels. A 5 lb box at 4' froward of the rear wheels will need 20 lb 1' behind the rear wheels to off set it. Hood, tongue, bumper and so on that's up front will add up and multiply by distance if you try and balance it. Also any weight not balanced will be divided between the front and back. The farther forward the more weight to the front hitch.

I honestly don't see an easy answer to this other than basically flat towing it, which as said has some issues on its own.

[slagmatic]

Buy a truck and a flatbed trailer, put the Jetta on the trailer and all your crap in the truck.

Or scrap the junker car and buy/build/steal a small utility trailer big enough to hold your crap.

Doing it your way is really going to take the fun out of driving to the shows.

[Laccery]

Well... I've come up with possible the best idea yet. At least I think it is.

This whole scenario is a Jetta pulling a Jetta. So.... here's hopefully the last idea.

Cut about a 4' section out of the middle of the car. Cut the front and rear doors in half, weld them together. That way I can use the stock body lines. Move the body from just the windshield section to the rear window section. The door will be very short. This middle section should now be as long as the amount of body that hangs after the rear axle. This should offset the weight and have a pretty good 50/50 weight distribution. Take out all the windows and replace with either plexi or just painted sheet to make it look like dark tinted windows. That will cut out a lot of weight again.

Now... the hood is still there. Cut out the two side frame rails. Install/make a hitch that starts at where the two front frame rails ended at the firewall. Have the hitch go up to a triangle but have it be as long as the fenders are. Hinge the fenders so that they fold inwards along the side of the hitch frame. Hinge the hood to fold down on the corners. Bumper cover comes off and now the front is a hitch.

I know it's a ton of work and lots of measuring but I'm looking for something fun to do in my spare time that will be unique. It doesn't have to be show quality and it doesn't have to carry a bunch of stuff but I want something that is fun.

I don't NEED a trailer, this trailer is just something that would be nice to have and since it's just something that is nice to have and I don't NEED it then I can take my loving sweet time with it. If i take enough time I will learn a lot from it. I want/need projects so that I can learn how to weld because right now, I have nothing else to weld for. This is going to be my welding project. Is it probably to big for somebody on my level, yeah. Can it probably be done by me, I like to think so.

As for fun driving to the shows. I used to have my 400-450whp fun car driving to the shows. The drive is fun and all but it started to get a little dull. It's to dangerous so, I'm making a fun project trailer that will fit in with the VW theme and allow me to have more fun at the show, which is where we spend most of the time.

[Laccery]

Quick Drawings for better description.

The front two wheels will just be donuts that will either be stored inside or will be mounted to a simple beam on the front that can be lowered and raised via a trailer lift which is on every regular 2 wheel trailer. These wheels will only support the front of the car and won't be functional at all.

[browny]

To be totally honest the whole idea sounds too hard and too much work to me. The sort of thing that ends up being a chore once the initial enthusiasm wears off and never gets finished.

Why not build a conventional trailer, using tried and tested means and then if you are still keen make some sort of lightweight canopy out of the body of your jetta?

That way you can always toss the canopy if/when the novelty runs out and you still have a trailer.

[DSW]

Well...
I don't NEED a trailer, this trailer is just something that would be nice to have and since it's just something that is nice to have and I don't NEED it then I can take my loving sweet time with it. If i take enough time I will learn a lot from it. I want/need projects so that I can learn how to weld because right now, I have nothing else to weld for. This is going to be my welding project. Is it probably to big for somebody on my level, yeah. Can it probably be done by me, I like to think so.

I'm almost sorry I responded initially. I've tried to put forward some suggestions that might make this idea safer. I still think the idea of the car as a trailer is interesting. I've tried to be gentle and reasonable in the hopes that you will understand and really think about what you plan to do. Unfortunately it seems that the farther this goes the more dangerous it is getting so I'll try it this way.

WHAT YOUR ARE PLANNING HERE IS DOWN RIGHT DANGEROUS! YOU HAVE NOWHERE NEAR THE SKILLS OR EXPERIECE/KNOLEDGE TO BE LOOKING AT CHOPPING A UNIBODY CAR. THIS IS NOT THE SORT OF PROJECT TO THINK ABOUT LEARNING TO WELD. THIS IS A PROJECT FOR SOMEONE WHO IS ALREADY A VERY SKILLED WELDER. PLEASE STOP BEFORE YOU KILL SOMEONE WITH YOUR LACK OF SKILLS / TRAINING.

Now I am sure by this point you are Pi$$ed off at me for what I just said, but it needed to be said by someone. I had hoped that a few others would have joined in so that you might see that the consensus thought that the body chop was a VERY bad idea. Stick to welding projects that do not endanger the safety of others around you.

Sorry to tromp so hard on your pride and project. I can understand the resentment you may feel now. The truth is while I have welded for years, I have had some formal training in tig mig and stick, and I have significantly more powerful tools and welders at my disposal than you, I WOULD NOT BEGIN TO TRY AND CUT AND WELD A UNIBODY CAR! I understand my limitations. I'd have no issues building a 7-10K trailer. I know my skill level will do the job and will stand there and take and pass any test that it takes to prove it. but to redesign a unibody vehicle that will be on the road, NO WAY.




Looking for welding projects that might go with your VW theme and shows here's a few thoughts that will let you practice and not involve public safety.

A VW themed smoker/ grill. Zap had that tire rim type grill he posted a while back. Might be a nice possibility. Maybe something larger like a 55 gal drum grill that makes use of VW parts like the one with the piston handles that was posted not long ago. Maybe a big VW logo on the front or sides. Maybe the grill could be made using the hood/trunk from an old bug as the lid.

Tent canopy. I've cut, bent and welded tube to make some of those tent canopies that many use for parties and camping. very simple to build but there are a lot of welds that have to be done on all the joint when you think about it. EMT conduit is the first thing that comes to mind but the galv coating is a pita, I use plain steel pipe/tube. It's easier to work with. Great practice for welding thin tube and sheet.

VW themed out door furniture. Do some metal bending and make a round table with the VW logo as the top. Top with a sheet of plexi or glass. Chairs with the logo would also be cool but would really take a bit of planning and a lot of bending.

VW wind chimes. Not much welding but if you have a plasma/torch you could cut out some neat VW shapes as part of it. If they are good I bet they'd sell well.

VW lawn art/ sculpture. You seem to have an imaginative mind think about what might be neet and posibly sell to others.

Generic auto projects. Ramps, engine hoist, welding table, chopsaw stand, roller supports. small shop press, engine stand, jack stands. These all test you skills some what. Will you trust your welds to get under a car that is on stands you built? Now mind you your little car is nowhere close to my 13K diesel truck but you understand.

Just do me a favor and step back and think about how dangerous this chopped car really is. I know that it's the project that you have put a lot of though into and really want to do, but its a mark of a truely good welder when they can step back and say "No i just do not have the skills for this" and walk away.

Good luck I hope to see some picts of possibly some of the alternative projects I suggested.

[46/71 Hybrid]

What do you think about buying a conventional trailer off of craigslist (cheap), and then pulling the VW body and modifying it to fit the trailer? Then you'd have the best of both worlds, a safe trailer and your VW theme.

Also, don't forget that you're towing with a front wheel drive unibody, not the best setup by a long shot. Just a guess, but I can't see that being rated for much more than 2000 lbs, if even that much.

Good luck with your build though, I think with proper engineering, skill, and taking your time, this could turn out pretty nice.

[daddy]

Man, I gotta agree with DSW. I don't think some of the ideas you have are safe.I have seen similar concepts where the trunk section only was chopped off and a blank panel covered the cut front edge that looked pretty slick. I would lean toward the idea of using an existing small trailer and making the sheet metal fit it. Just as much effort and welding practice and much less chance of creating a rolling hazard.

[Laccery]

I do realize the hazard in this project. I've built lawn art and I am still doing so. :) I've been doing exhausts for a lot of car friends, and i've started to make my own tools. I've already started on a welding table but I'm waiting to find a nice top for the table. I've also tested some of my welds with things like pipe. Weld two straight pipes together and then I would stand on them and then have another friend stand on them while having the two ends of the pipe supported so that there's nothing between.

I'm not pissed at all. I totally understand where you are coming from. I would express my opinion just like that if I were in your shoes too. No problems there. I realize that cutting the unibody into two pieces and trying to put it back together as one won't be good structurally. I have some steel square tubing that I can run down the full length of the body and make X braces for extra support which was the initial idea, I just never said that because I thought it was a given that it would be reinforced.

I would do a trailer and put a body on it but.... that's an extra 200-300 bucks that I could save. Not to mention re-mounting everything after welding it all back up would take a heck of a longer amount of time.

I've seen the trunk section ones. I think i've seen about four of them in person and looked at them closely. I'm not looking to be toting around a lot of weight or throwing engines in there or anything. Just things like canopies, chairs, grill, and some coolers.

I don't even know if any of this is going to happen. Most of the time I just think up of ideas to make something and it never really happens. I like to plan things and see what it'd take to make something happen. You never know where the information might be useful. I do that with a lot of stuff. Sorry if I got you riled up at all. I'm not one to make something if I don't think it's going to hold and others don't think it's going to hold then I won't put it on the road. Simple as that. I've got two local welding shops that I frequent to take a look at what they are doing and ask questions. I can post up pics here and I will run it by them. I'm very up on safety and if it's not safe, I won't use it. The shell doesn't mean much to me, I just want to get some use out of it instead of sending it to the scrapper and if I can make something useful then that's a added benefit. :)

[DSW]

Glad to hear that I didn't upset you with my comments. Not really riled up just wanted to be sure you understood my feelings clearly. Sometimes it seems like if you don't give the info someone wants they just don't listen.

I can understand getting tied up in the excitement of a project. As for the frame it didn't occur to me that you were thinking that way, guess it comes from hearing too many suggest that they want to put front 1/2 of car A to rear 1/2 of car B and make a new car and so on. I though about the shell on a trailer idea but didn't suggest it as I just thought that it would be too much work to build a good trailer and then sit the body on it. (I was thinking the wheels needed to be inboard of the doors so that they don't show and allow you to get the axle placement that you would need. Sort of like a parade float.) To me the end result would be a lot of useless weight behind a challenged tow vehicle already.

I discussed this with a friend of mine who used to do dune buggy conversions on old VW's and knows alot about them. He had the comment that he doubted that the engine/ trans could be successfully pulled from the Jetta and still flat tow it with out major front end changes. His thought were an older VW with RWD would make a better trailer. His suggestion was #1 a bus, #2 a "Thing", He actually though the "thing" would be most likely the most useful.

[Laccery]

Yeah. That's one of my projects right now actually. I'm making a 1971 Bus and swapping a 6 cylinder VR6 VW engine into it so that it's got some good low end torque for towing actually. :) Yet another one of my slowly progressing projects. Really easy to do though because a company called Kennedy Engineering makes adapter plates to bolt the VR6 straight to the stock air cooled tranny. Only thing that needs to be fabricated is the engine support/sub frame. The engine also fits in there like a glove.

As for my Jetta Diesel towing the stubby Jetta. I guess it all depends on what the end weight is with it all loaded down. Honestly I don't know what it will weigh. If I can get it down to 700 lb's with just the "trailer" and then 1k-1200lb's loaded then it might be feasible. It's hard to call. As for the FWD and RWD. I don't think I'll really have any traction issues with it being FWD. I just got my uprated springs and coilover setup in the mail and that should enable me to set the height so that there is better control of the vehicle. It won't be as stable as a RWD car but it'll work for the mean time until the bus is finished. I don't know how long the bus is going to finish because I still need to get the body work squared away, it got hit in the rear passenger side corner by the previous owner. I've already got some of the wiring done, engine rebuilt, and some of the interior pieces together but the whole sub frame still needs to be put in and I need to figure out my clutch options because the clutches that are offered for the little air cooled trannies aren't really made for high torque or high loads. There's not a big selection so I have to look more into that. Anyways!!! I'm diverging.

Yeah, I wouldn't trust straight welding Half of A car to Half of B car together. There's just to much stress put on that welded joint that is going around the whole car. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with flat towing. That seemed like a really bad idea and a difficult one.

[DSW]

Goes to show you that all of us don't think alike and thats not a bad thing.

To me flat tow is simple and straigt forward. Other than figureing out how to attach the tow bar to the jetta and tie into the lighting harness to hook up the lights, I could most likely bang the whole thing out in under an hour excepting the time to run and get the materials. Then again I have a full sized truck to tow it and have had to move stuff on trailer with no brakes from time to time that have a serious bit of wieght. To me any trailer less than say 5k isn't worth the hassle to deal with.