Attempt to Reclaim 7018 Weld Results

[duaneb55]

For anyone who may have followed the "7018 Rod Oven" thread http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=25899 and cares to see the real results of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod that belongs in the scrap bin here's a few photos following David R's suggestion to break the test welds apart which I did this afternoon.

I'm not going to copy them here so you'll have to go to the other thread to read them but the photos to follow show the characteristics that MoodRise posted and I confirmed in posts #46 and #47 in the original "7018 Rod Oven" thread. The photos don't show as well as in person but the porosity is very evident throughout the weld and particularly in the original tack.

I'll post the 4-3/4" forbidden vertical down photos in this first post and then the 3" horizontal in a second so stand by for the second post.

The original vertical down weld from the "7018 Rod Oven" thread
26326

It took several wacks with the 10# Up and Down wrench (previously listed as only 8#) to get the weld to yield and the first pieces to lay flat.
26327

Front side after pounding the two pieces flat.
26328

Breaking the weld.
26329

You can see the narrow weld deposit result of a vertical down. Weld porosity is there but not clear in the photo.
26330

Stand by for post #2.

[duaneb55]

Post #2 showing the horizontal weld.

Again, the original weld from the "7018 Rod Oven" post.
26331

Beginning the break.
26332

Continuing the break.
26333

The break complete. Again, it's not very clear in the photos but some porosity spans the entire width of the weld with porosity in some areas quite severe as in the original tack. Although the 3" horizontal weld fill was considerably wider than the vertical down, it pulled apart with what I would consider minimal effort with a 10" adjustable wrench. Certainly less than I would have expected.
26334

So now I know first hand the futility of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod and the resulting welds if used and as such I'm going to consider this a good test and deposit the rod where it belongs.:D

[Engloid]

Why are you welding downhill with a 7018?

[lugweld]

Now,
Do one with fresh rods. It may be a problem with the weldor?:angel:

[Craig in Denver]

Why are you welding downhill with a 7018?

Now,
Do one with fresh rods. It may be a problem with the weldor?:angel:Duane:
Looks like a tough crowd tonight. :)

[David R]

If you forget the porosity, and look at the vertical down weld, it didn't get into the base metal much Eh?

What happened to the piece that had the V up and V down on the same set of cupons? That is the one I want to see destroyed.

Nice demo and I appreciate your time.

Maybe we can all learn.

Those welds were outside corners. If you did a fillet (T), it would be harder to break.

Thanks Duane
David <~~~ Insert big cheesy grin here.

[duaneb55]

Why are you welding downhill with a 7018?
As was brought out in the referenced original post, being a hobby weldor I wasn't aware that the 'all position' rating of 7018 didn't mean vertical down. Thanks to the posts explaining why from several members that did know, now I do too.;)


Now,
Do one with fresh rods. It may be a problem with the weldor?:angel:
You very well could be right lugweld.:D


Duane:
Looks like a tough crowd tonight. :)
No problem Craig. Those weren't too bad and my skin's a little thicker than that anyhow.:drinkup:

[lugweld]

I really wasn't trying to impune. But true to the scientific process, you must have a control before you can form an evaluation of problem of porosity and blame it on the reclaimed 7018 rods. To establish a control, fresh hot rods should be used the way they are prescribed to obtain a bench mark for comparison. Any porosity obtained could be for a variety of factors: contaminated steel, wind blowing, or operator error. While exact conditions are not possible to replicate, it would be nice to see if the welds from a new box of rods held up to scrutiny before we can blame the reclaimed rods.
.

[duaneb55]

If you forget the porosity, and look at the vertical down weld, it didn't get into the base metal much Eh?
Nope. Not much at all which is why I wanted to show it.


What happened to the piece that had the V up and V down on the same set of cupons? That is the one I want to see destroyed.
That's right! I forgot that's the one you wanted me to break. I even looked at it but... well, I wanted to get started on fixing that lawn mower engine throttle bracket so I tossed it in the scrap pile. I'll get it back out and break that one too and post some shots but my guess is we'll see the same thing.

I didn't plan on doing anything more with that bunch of rod except toss it out but if you want to see a couple fillets with it I can run some.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Craig in Denver]

If you forget the porosity.........Isn't that like saying "If you forget the divorce"......? :cry:

Nice demo and I appreciate your time.Cwap........me too. :blush:

Maybe we can all learn.BUT.........Duane lives in Texus........;)

Thanks Duane
David <~~~ Insert big cheesy grin here.Ok, fine; me too. Thanks Duane <~~~Insert big cheesy grin here. There are at least two welding worlds, one is someone looking over your shoulder with a WPS. Another is my home garage. Duane's testing is invaluable. :drinkup:

[Engloid]

BTW, I've done a lot of xray welds that weren't considered to be "fresh" by ASME codes. Moreso now than in the past, all jobs didn't have any sort of rod ovens.

[duaneb55]

I really wasn't trying to impune. But true to the scientific process, you must have a control before you can form an evaluation of problem of porosity and blame it on the reclaimed 7018 rods. To establish a control, fresh hot rods should be used the way they are prescribed to obtain a bench mark for comparison. Any porosity obtained could be for a variety of factors: contaminated steel, wind blowing, or operator error. While exact conditions are not possible to replicate, it would be nice to see if the welds from a new box of rods held up to scrutiny before we can blame the reclaimed rods.
.

lugweld, I understand completely what you're saying but you really need to read the original post if you haven't already. The subject rod belongs in the dumpster! The characteristics that MoonRise posted there were spot on in that the flux ran off like a garden hose was running while welding and chipped off like concrete. The test pieces were ground smooth and clean back at least 1/2" from the joints.

Now that being said, I am in no way a professional weldor but some of the stick welding I've done in the past was back in the early '80s when I fabricated tandem hitches on approximately 30 lead trailers for doubles that were stick welded and included vertical, horizontal and overhead welds. The hitches were inspected and pasted by the NYS Thruway Authority and were used to run up and down the highway until the trailers were retired years later.

Today I am out of practice as I believe I stated in the original thread up until the other day I haven't stick welded in 12-15 years and I know I couldn't pass a cert test but I don't think I'm that bad so I'll get some fresh stuff to make the comparison for myself and all and post the results.:drinkup:

[denrep]

...So now I know first hand the futility of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod and the resulting welds if used and as such I'm going to consider this a good test and deposit the rod where it belongs.

Before we condemn reconditioning, we have to be sure that target temperature, time, and air flow were reached during the cook out.

The subject rod belongs in the dumpster!
:eek::eek::eek: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad:
I'll admit; when I saw the posted picture of 7018 that someone threw in the junk I felt sorta sick.:( I was glad to read later that the junk man picked the box of rod out and put it in his truck's cab. Hope he uses it all! :)

Granted not all old rods can be saved, but they deserves a fair chance.
And even the duds are still good for piercing. :drinkup:

Thanks for posting the test. :waving:

[duaneb55]

Before we condemn reconditioning, we have to be sure that target temperature, time, and air flow were reached during the cook out.

Good point denrep. I should have said "this bunch of 7018 rod" and didn't mean to condem all rod reconditioning. As I pointed out in the rod oven thread, the rod in question sat outside on the ground (not in a box either) for weeks before I brought it home. If I recall the weather correctly, it never got rained on but it was in direct contact with the ground so...

[tanglediver]

* If I were being tested with old rod and vertical down, in the plate prep I would consider that most importantly the "inside edge" of the joint must be clean and the back side adjacent to the joint needs to be clean. And even then, the open root will allow impurities to be included, so...open root might need to be back gouged to remove impurities, then rewelded.
* The old rod and anything downhill, by all means, had everything to do with it. A failure in practice, to avoid a failure when it counts! :)
* But it depends on the initial rod quality and where it was stored, I had a good rod that was tacked to a 1/2" flat washer in a pencil holder on my desk for ten years (I know, I am a weird clutterbug) before i got an urge to snap the washer off and burn it...it was poetry in motion! Just gorgeous!! It was a 7018 rod, Hobart I think.
Thanks Duane!

[Engloid]

Provided the flux hasn't physically broken down, they can be baked out again. We have even rebaked them for nuclear plants. I believe they called for 4 hours at 550 degrees, but I can't remember exactly.

[duaneb55]

* If I were being tested with old rod and vertical down, in the plate prep I would consider that most importantly the "inside edge" of the joint must be clean and the back side adjacent to the joint needs to be clean. And even then, the open root will allow impurities to be included, so...open root might need to be back gouged to remove impurities, then rewelded.
* The old rod and anything downhill, by all means, had everything to do with it. A failure in practice, to avoid a failure when it counts! :)
* But it depends on the initial rod quality and where it was stored, I had a good rod that was tacked to a 1/2" flat washer in a pencil holder on my desk for ten years (I know, I am a weird clutterbug) before i got an urge to snap the washer off and burn it...it was poetry in motion! Just gorgeous!! It was a 7018 rod, Hobart I think.
Thanks Duane!

I didn't go back and look but I don't think I ever posted a shot of the pre-welded joint but only described it. Here's a photo of the prep that was ground clean a minimum 1/2" on both sides and the full edge as previously described to eliminate any signs of rust and pits.

This was the start of the test piece David R wants to see busted apart.

[David R]

Slag running off, Slag coming off HARD and porosity are all also signs of a long arc.

I don't know how long your arc was but I have found the above from experience.

Try it and you will see.

When running 7018, I use a lot of heat, the top end of the recommended heat for that size rod and push the rod almost into the leading edge of the puddle. I did a horizontal weld on a cell tower using 5/32 8018 @ 190 amps (max for that size) and it worked great. These were UT tested and passed. I was welding 1 1/4" thick to 1 1/2" plate V bevel 15* on the top side.

Having an arc force setting on really smooth also helps for me with dry rod.

The instructions for my Ranger 250 say set on smooth. If the Lo Hy rod is a little damp and it sticks, turn the arc force up until it doesn't stick.

Good stuff Duane

David

[Oldtimer]

This has been interesting in both threads but I won't comment about 7018 except to say I have run enough of it to know what it will do, both old and brand new.

What I want to know is why you don't give that pore ol' hammer a new handle? :D :D :D

[Fat Bastard]

Duane:
Looks like a tough crowd tonight. :)

Both reasonable logical questions. Again Why?

[specter]

looks like that handle is about to break faster than those welds.

The welds certainly go to show the in experience that you can have good looking welds that would never pass a cert.

[duaneb55]

Post totally screwed up by Mod by accident. ( I hit the wrong button)

OOPs Duane.......

My apologies.....

David

[duaneb55]

Both reasonable logical questions. Again Why?
Yup. Take a look at the "7018 Ron Oven" thread FB. I didn't realize at the time of the test that even though 7018 is listed as "all position" that doesn't include vertical down.;)


looks like that handle is about to break faster than those welds.
Naw - those are only minor 'flesh wounds'. There's lots of life left in that handle.:D


The welds certainly go to show the in experience that you can have good looking welds that would never pass a cert.
And exactly one of the reasons for posting them!:drinkup:

[duaneb55]

Post totally screwed up by Mod by accident. ( I hit the wrong button)

OOPs Duane.......

My apologies.....

David

:laugh::laugh:rofl:laugh::laugh:
:drinkup:

Makes me think you should be sayin " so solly".:laugh::laugh:

[duaneb55]

OK, let's try this again - best as I can remember.:laugh:

Slag running off, Slag coming off HARD and porosity are all also signs of a long arc.

I don't know how long your arc was but I have found the above from experience.

Try it and you will see.
I kept the arc ASAP (As Short As Possible:D) and don't think I could have jammed the rod in much further. When I read the MoonRise's post outlining the weld characteristics of bad 7018 that matched my experience to a tee I just chaulked it up as such.

When running 7018, I use a lot of heat, the top end of the recommended heat for that size rod and push the rod almost into the leading edge of the puddle. I did a horizontal weld on a cell tower using 5/32 8018 @ 190 amps (max for that size) and it worked great. These were UT tested and passed. I was welding 1 1/4" thick to 1 1/2" plate V bevel 15* on the top side.
My Miller 'cheat sheet' lists 1/8" 7018 as 110-165amps and I ran it at 125-130amps. Would you suggest running it again at the max?

Having an arc force setting on really smooth also helps for me with dry rod.

The instructions for my Ranger 250 say set on smooth. If the Lo Hy rod is a little damp and it sticks, turn the arc force up until it doesn't stick.

Good stuff Duane

David
OK, now that you mention it, I do recall having the 180 SD DIG set at 2 and in light of everything that has been discussed, perhaps another test is in order.:)

[qaqc]

7018 is available in vert up or down..

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12739

[David R]

:laugh::laugh:rofl:laugh::laugh:
:drinkup:

Makes me think you should be sayin " so solly".:laugh::laugh:

Does that make an ahhso?

David :)

[duaneb55]

7018 is available in vert up or down..
...but notice no 3F down so...


Does that make an ahhso?

David :)
Never in my book!:drinkup:

[Engloid]

7018 is available in vert up or down..

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumabledatasheet.aspx?p=12739
Riding a bicycle across the country is possible also...but most people would never be able to do it.

I have yet to see anybody consistently make good downhill welds with a 7018.

[denrep]

...I have yet to see anybody consistently make good downhill welds with a 7018.

Ditto

Has anyone actually used or seen this 7018A1 super-freak?

Lincoln cites one application only for the A1 -and it aint steak sauce!- pipe and pressure vessel 50% molybdenum and 50ksi plus.

Does anyone know what this alloy is?

[David R]

One guy on here had certs for down hill. I don't know what process. I took the time to learn up hill. Good thing too.

Downhill for sheet metal sure, but 6013 or 6010 is used for that. I only do exhaust down hill with my little mig. Its the balls.

David

[Engloid]

One guy on here had certs for down hill.
...which proves that it was done well ONE time. :)

[jotram]

verticle down will have a 4 in the EXX4X ....i have not seen any with that number 4.....why is that ? what rod has a 4

[Kangi]

There is more 7018 downhill going on than you guys realize, just about every big oil tank, like at the refineries and such has had its vertical seams welded downhanded and then back-gouged. Those tankies really know their stuff, I had the occasion to work on a steel smokestack and that's how we built the rings.

[Hammer]

While working in a quarry I did a good deal of downhill with 7018. Theres really no other way to do some of the repair work you need to do. And if you ever been in the processing end of a quarry, you know crap welds arent going to cut it.

[qaqc]

Riding a bicycle across the country is possible also...but most people would never be able to do it.

I have yet to see anybody consistently make good downhill welds with a 7018.

I guess it all depends on what type of work you have been exposed to. Eventually you will find an application for those bike riding skills. It is not unheard of to weld 7018 down hill and pass RT.

[Engloid]

So where are the pictures of this elusive beast in the wild?

[Kangi]

Well it is pretty elusive

[duaneb55]

So where are the pictures of this elusive beast in the wild?

Well it is pretty elusive

If you're referring to the 're-test' mentioned in post #25, I may be able to get to it this weekend. The only welding time I got in during the week was some TIG practice on some CS last night.

[Engloid]

What advantage would you have welding a 7018 downhill?

[duaneb55]

What advantage would you have welding a 7018 downhill?

Sorry - I was referring to a re-test with different welder settings using the questionable rod not downhill.

[tresi]

verticle down will have a 4 in the EXX4X ....i have not seen any with that number 4.....why is that ? what rod has a 4

I haven't try them out but lincoln did come out with a down hill low hydrogen rod http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/consumableviewlist.aspx?itemlist=80399,80400,80401&FAM=Consumables&tn=Pipeliner%LH-D80. Yes it does have a 4 for the 3rd number, E8045-p2hr4.

[duaneb55]

OK - Some re-tests completed using the 'questionable' 7018 rod and different welder settings. Rod was not re-baked before test due to rod oven in use.:nono:

There will be 3 posts with the first being simply a horizontal fillet, the second a destructive test attempt on the horizontal and the third an overview of several vertical uphill from OMG!!! to so-so (remember, my uphill leaves alot to be desired).

Post #1 - Horizontal fillet

Amps: 165
DIG: 10
Polarity: EP
Temperature: 73*F
Humidity: 86%
Skies: sunny to partly cloudy
Radio station: K-LOVE
Pulse: 60
BP: ???

1/8" 7018 'test' rod from previously baked batch.
26560

180 SD settings of EP, 165A and DIG at 10. Have I mentioned I love this machine!:)
26561

1/4" test pieces preped for welding with ground bevel on edge.
26562

Weld with slag that still chips off like concrete. As for arc length, couldn't shove the rod in fast enough.
26563

6" weld that took one whole rod cleaned off.
26564

Post #2 will show destruction attempt.

[duaneb55]

Post #2 - horizontal destruction attempt.

Start of bend test.
26565

Darn weld won't break.
26566

Backside of bend test.
26567

Weld side of bend test.
26568

Casualty of destructive bend test.:mad: New candidate for TIG repair project.
26569

Post #3 will be several vertical up welds.

[duaneb55]

Post #3 - Vertical Up

Rod #2. OMG!!!! Bottom is @ 165A, DIG @ 10. Top is 130A, DIG @ 10. Both blew thru and couldn't feed the rod in fast enough. Edge on weld piece was beveled same as horizontal weld test.
26570

Back side showing blow thru and heat.
26571

Rod #3. 130A, DIG @ 7. Travel slowed down as I went resulting in excessive bead build-up and eventual blow-thru.
26572

Rod #4. 110A, DIG @ 7. Better but still needs alot of work.
26573

Back side of third vertical up test weld.
26574

That's it. Next test will be with fresh rod (still didn't get any) and I've got more photos if there's anything anyone wants to see (material prep, slag, etc.). I tried but couldn't break any of the welds with a 24" pipe wrench without moving that new workbench around so I'll have to cut them apart to see anything else.

Thanks for looking and I look forward to your comments and suggestions and I'll keep practicing my uphill.

[David R]

Try Dig 1-3 and see the difference on flat welds. NO spatter, Smooooth welds Wider less penetrating bead. Maybe 3-5 for vertical up. It took me a long time to figure that out even though its in the owners manual for my Lincoln stick welders.

Lo Hy Low dig
6010/11 higher dig.

6013 or 7014 DCEN med to high dig. I call it arc force.

Higher arc force makes 7018 act more like 6010
Lower arc force makes 6010/11 more like 7018

Your welds look great including the last vertical up. Put a weave over top of that same settings. You might surprise your self.

7018 will weld at 165 amps. I ran one 1/8" stick flat by accident when running 5/32 @ 190 amps. It did weld, but got some spatter. NOT a good practice.

Thanks for all the tests and time.
David :)

[duaneb55]

Try Dig 1-3 and see the difference on flat welds. NO spatter, Smooooth welds Wider less penetrating bead. Maybe 3-5 for vertical up. It took me a long time to figure that out even though its in the owners manual for my Lincoln stick welders.

Lo Hy Low dig
6010/11 higher dig.

6013 or 7014 DCEN med to high dig. I call it arc force.

Higher arc force makes 7018 act more like 6010
Lower arc force makes 6010/11 more like 7018

Your welds look great including the last vertical up. Put a weave over top of that same settings. You might surprise your self.

7018 will weld at 165 amps. I ran one 1/8" stick flat by accident when running 5/32 @ 190 amps. It did weld, but got some spatter. NOT a good practice.

Thanks for all the tests and time.
David :)

Thanks for the pointers David. I'll give your suggestions a try next go around with fresh rod.

Now here's something else to consider and I don't know if anyone else caught it yet but I just realized even though I listed polarity as EP, all those welds were run EN (see the 180 SD shot).:blush2: So much for the details.

[Craig in Denver]

Duane, David R, and Denrep (The 3 D's):
I appreciate your exploring and testing the rules. I enjoy watching 'youse guys' playing around.

Duane:
Thanks for 'fessin' up' about the EP / EN. Somewhere in my past, I read that stick was DCEN, same as TIG. Recently, I've relearned that stick is 'posed to be DC+ most of the time. Mosta my stickin' has been DCEN (in error). :( My justification is: If you have a TIG, why inna world would ya stick!?!? (In my world, pretty is better than fast. Yes, I'm leaning; each process has its advantages.) Soooooooooo's, you ain't the only one.

[David R]

Duane, you are a screwball! I can say that to you only.

When run 7018 on DCEN, it runs like CRAP. Spatter, crappy welds and it acts like the arc force is turned all the way up. But I gotta say NICE welds for having the polarity azz backwards!

I have done it enough times that I recignize it when welding, so I am just as stoopid. :)

You are a REAL MAN for admitting you screwed up. :drinkup:

Enjoy the day :)

David

[duaneb55]

Duane, David R, and Denrep (The 3 D's):
I appreciate your exploring and testing the rules. I enjoy watching 'youse guys' playing around.

Duane:
Thanks for 'fessin' up' about the EP / EN. Somewhere in my past, I read that stick was DCEN, same as TIG. Recently, I've relearned that stick is 'posed to be DC+ most of the time. Mosta my stickin' has been DCEN (in error). :( My justification is: If you have a TIG, why inna world would ya stick!?!? (In my world, pretty is better than fast. Yes, I'm leaning; each process has its advantages.) Soooooooooo's, you ain't the only one.

Duane, you are a screwball! I can say that to you only.

When run 7018 on DCEN, it runs like CRAP. Spatter, crappy welds and it acts like the arc force is turned all the way up. But I gotta say NICE welds for having the polarity azz backwards!

I have done it enough times that I recignize it when welding, so I am just as stoopid. :)

You are a REAL MAN for admitting you screwed up. :drinkup:

Enjoy the day :)

David

What can I say? The hazards of being a 'hobby' weldor!

Thanks for the kind words in spite of my rectal cranial inversion moment.:D

[daddy]

Good post Duane. I think you will find fresh dry rod a bit nicer on v-up. My experience is that new rod starts easier,and tends to stay where you put it. DCEP will be better too.
Code guys will grumble, but old nasty 7018 still can be useful, and is used every day.:p

[RALBITRE63]

Keep Your Old Rod As Long As The Flux Has Not Begun To Flake From Moisture.....
I Have Dealt With Inspectors For 30 Years, And Most Are Book Educated, Not Hands On, They Always Tell Us To Use Rod Ovens, And To Preheat The Beam Flanges Before Welding Full Pens, We Welded Up On One Building 200 Full Pens, On W18x60 Beams, Most Were Done With Ln-25 Pushing Nr-232 068 Wire, Then We Did About 10 Full Pens With Old Open Can In The Back Of The Truck Exposed 7018 1/8'' Without Preheat Or Rod Oven Same Fit-up As With The Ln-25, With A 1/8'' Root Pass,
Every Single Weld Passed Ut Test X-ray, It's Really How Bad The Rod Is But In No Way Should A New Can Be Opened Evey Time You Have To Weld, I Think The Inspectors Might Look At It Differently If They Were The Ones Buying The Welding Rod..
Ive Been With The Ironworkers Union For 30 Yrs And Have Not Seen A Inspector That Can Out Weld A Welder?????

[Engloid]

Keep Your Old Rod As Long As The Flux Has Not Begun To Flake From Moisture.....
I Have Dealt With Inspectors For 30 Years, And Most Are Book Educated, Not Hands On, They Always Tell Us To Use Rod Ovens, And To Preheat The Beam Flanges Before Welding Full Pens, We Welded Up On One Building 200 Full Pens, On W18x60 Beams, Most Were Done With Ln-25 Pushing Nr-232 068 Wire, Then We Did About 10 Full Pens With Old Open Can In The Back Of The Truck Exposed 7018 1/8'' Without Preheat Or Rod Oven Same Fit-up As With The Ln-25, With A 1/8'' Root Pass,
Every Single Weld Passed Ut Test X-ray, It's Really How Bad The Rod Is But In No Way Should A New Can Be Opened Evey Time You Have To Weld, I Think The Inspectors Might Look At It Differently If They Were The Ones Buying The Welding Rod..

The reason to dry rods isn't just a matter of things that can be seen by UT or RT. It's things that happen on a molecular level. I'd go more into detail, but I'm not a metallurgist or welding engineer. I simply can't explain (or remember all of) what has been explained to me by those that know much more about it than I do.

Ive Been With The Ironworkers Union For 30 Yrs And Have Not Seen A Inspector That Can Out Weld A Welder?????

I work as an inspector and a welder...and have outwelded 2 or 3 welders in my days. It happens sometimes. In many cases, an inspector may be woring on a job that he simply cannot weld. For example, I recently worked as an inspector at a nuke plant..and if they caught me welding something, I'd have been fired.

[duaneb55]

I work as an inspector and a welder...and have outwelded 2 or 3 welders in my days. It happens sometimes. In many cases, an inspector may be woring on a job that he simply cannot weld. For example, I recently worked as an inspector at a nuke plant..and if they caught me welding something, I'd have been fired.

We had a guy working for us a few years ago that was a weldor turned inspector 'in another life' and was pretty darn good at melting metal together.

So do you see most inspectors coming from two typical groups?

1) Good weldors turned inspector that can't be BS'd but might be a bit anal at times "becasue that's how I did it".

2) Guys/gals, weldor or not, that may (or may not) understand the principles but couldn't run a bead to save their life.

I guess 2) covers more than one group doesn't it?:rolleyes:

[tanglediver]

Ive Been With The Ironworkers Union For 30 Yrs And Have Not Seen A Inspector That Can Out Weld A Welder?????

Nice to hear from you! :waving:

[Engloid]

So do you see most inspectors coming from two typical groups?

1) Good weldors turned inspector that can't be BS'd but might be a bit anal at times "becasue that's how I did it".

2) Guys/gals, weldor or not, that may (or may not) understand the principles but couldn't run a bead to save their life.

I guess 2) covers more than one group doesn't it?:rolleyes:
I do see some of both. Many in the second group are NDT techs with backgrounds in RT, MT, or PT, that then decide they want to be a CWI. They often know their NDT, but know very little about the actual welding. I've seen them struggle a lot with the welding portions of the class/test.

[MoonRise]

Pssst,

How many have actually -looked- at the fine print on a box/carton of 7018? Not a factory-sealed can/cannister, but a typical 5-10-25 lb cardboard/plastic box maybe with the plastic wrap on it.

The fine print I saw the other day flat out said that the rod was supposed to be re-baked before use. :eek: Not just stored in a rod oven, but full high-temperature rebake. Because the maker knows that the cardboard or plastic isn't a hermetic seal.

FYI.

[Craig in Denver]

MoonRise:
I've frequently wondered about that skimpy plastic cover over a cardboard box being considered a suitable seal. Apparently it isn't. :(

[Jamie Webb]

Keep Your Old Rod As Long As The Flux Has Not Begun To Flake From Moisture.....
I Have Dealt With Inspectors For 30 Years, And Most Are Book Educated, Not Hands On, They Always Tell Us To Use Rod Ovens, And To Preheat The Beam Flanges Before Welding Full Pens, We Welded Up On One Building 200 Full Pens, On W18x60 Beams, Most Were Done With Ln-25 Pushing Nr-232 068 Wire, Then We Did About 10 Full Pens With Old Open Can In The Back Of The Truck Exposed 7018 1/8'' Without Preheat Or Rod Oven Same Fit-up As With The Ln-25, With A 1/8'' Root Pass,
Every Single Weld Passed Ut Test X-ray, It's Really How Bad The Rod Is But In No Way Should A New Can Be Opened Evey Time You Have To Weld, I Think The Inspectors Might Look At It Differently If They Were The Ones Buying The Welding Rod..
Ive Been With The Ironworkers Union For 30 Yrs And Have Not Seen A Inspector That Can Out Weld A Welder?????

But why?? Why would you cheat on the process. That just shows me you are NOT a good welder. I hate to sound harsh, but that is the truth. What if the weld you put in cracks? What if the building has a MAJOR failure and kills MANY people? It might not happen today, it might not happen tomorrow, but it can happen.

Engineers have spent MANY years developing a process that works and will provide the safest weld. But it's only safe IF you follow the process. Sure, you can join two peices of metal, but you have NO IDEA of what makes a good weld.

It can pass Xray (RT) and UT initially with no problem. That just shows you know how to join two peices of metal. But what about after that weld has several thousand cycles of loading and loading? What if it's in an earthquake zone? What if it fails.

The inspector on your job should be fired and never allowed to work again as an inspector in my opinion if he allowed you to get away with what you said you did.

And I'll take your welding challenge any day. On one condition, you must also take and pass the inspector tests that I take and go through the audits I have to go through.

[Jamie Webb]

Duane,
In my opinion, the vert up weld is one of the hardest to make and that is the reason I ALWAYS give the vert up test first to my new welders. If they can pass that I let them do the horz and over head. Typically, if they can pass that, they are good. It will also show you if they know how to set the machine and hold the rod.

By the way, I have seen MANY good downhill welds with 7018 (and other xx18 rods).

[weldrwomn]

But why?? Why would you cheat on the process. That just shows me you are NOT a good welder. I hate to sound harsh, but that is the truth. What if the weld you put in cracks? What if the building has a MAJOR failure and kills MANY people? It might not happen today, it might not happen tomorrow, but it can happen.

Engineers have spent MANY years developing a process that works and will provide the safest weld. But it's only safe IF you follow the process. Sure, you can join two peices of metal, but you have NO IDEA of what makes a good weld.

It can pass Xray (RT) and UT initially with no problem. That just shows you know how to join two peices of metal. But what about after that weld has several thousand cycles of loading and loading? What if it's in an earthquake zone? What if it fails.

The inspector on your job should be fired and never allowed to work again as an inspector in my opinion if he allowed you to get away with what you said you did.

And I'll take your welding challenge any day. On one condition, you must also take and pass the inspector tests that I take and go through the audits I have to go through.

Very Well Said. :drinkup:

[Engloid]

People often forget that there's things that happen to metal that the eye cannot see. Lets say that you're welding up the beams for a 100 story building. You have never seen any problem with welds cracking from no preheat, so you shortcut the process. You bring a torch over so that the inspector thinks you heated it, and you start welding. Your weld is a 3/4" fillet weld. You put the first pass in and it looks fine with no cracking. If it's going to crack, it will do it immediately, right?

You put the further passes on and the weld passes VISUAL inspection. (Remember that most welds only get visual inspection.) Years down the road, the weld fails and people die. An investigation is conducted.

(I'm not a metallurgist, so bear with my example, even if it's not the true science.)

They find that the weld has a high hydrogen content. They investigate the traceability of the filler and find that it was a good lot of filler. The condition is consistent with a lack of preheat. They also notice that the heat affected zone is consistent with a weld that had no preheat.

The families of those that died will be trying to sue everybody they can. This will include contractors, subcontractors, and the welder that performed the work.

You may even be held CRIMINALLY liable?

On the other hand, had you taken the time to recognize that you don't know everything about metals, and preheated like you were supposed to, lives would have been spared, and you would have even made more money doing it.

[RALBITRE63]

''blown Out Of Proportion'' 30yrs Exp...the Welds Are Safe Have Been Fema Tested, It Was Done Just To Show The Overboard Excess That Goes On Today,to Justify Thier Inspecting Jobs, It Was To Show There Is A Certain Degree Of Overboard, On The Engineers/inspectors, That Have To Overkill Thier Calculations , As They Are Not Competent Or Comfortable With Any Decisions Enough To Say Enough Is Enough, Even If It Is Way Overkill....
If You Read My Initial Post It Did Not Say That The Rod Was Bad, It Just Was Not Heated, And The Flux Was Not Flaking,.
Inspectors And Engineers, Should Not Be Allowed To Get Thier Certs And Degrees, Until They Put Some Time Out In The Field, And Really Know What It Takes, Not Book Buyers....
Up On Buildings,your Up Sometimes Hundreds Of Feet Above The Ground Hanging Over The Beem To Weld The Bottom Flanges On A Full Pen , And You Cant Even Get Inspectors Out There Without Soiling Thier Pants , Its Not Like In A Nice Shop Where You Have Dry Conditions, Everything Is Fit Up Perfectly, On A Table In Front Of You, Anyone Can Weld Like That,
As Far As Liability Iron Workers Take More Pride In Thier Work Than Anyone Else, The Danger Is All On Us Walking The Steel, Hanging The Iron, Putting Our Lives At Risk , So You People That Work Indoors Have A Warm Place To Work, Every Bridge You Drive Over Every Building You See, Ironworkers Put The Lives On The Line ....for You!
Union Ironworkers Build America........

[Engloid]

''blown Out Of Proportion'' 30yrs Exp...the Welds Are Safe Have Been Fema Tested,
I would imagine that FEMA either relies on AWS (or another welding organization), or they adopted their own specs by taking them from others. I doubt they have done all the testing and have the experience and knowledge of the AWS, collectively. In short, I don't think that FEMA is the "end all, know all" of welding inspection.

It Was Done Just To Show The Overboard Excess That Goes On Today,to Justify Thier Inspecting Jobs,
Likewise, one could argue that the purpose of any auditor is to justify their own job, rather than to help a customer ensure that a job was done right. Imagine what welds you'd get in a nuclear plant if everybody was supposed to inspect their own welds.

If You Read My Initial Post It Did Not Say That The Rod Was Bad, It Just Was Not Heated, And The Flux Was Not Flaking,.
Do you really think that there's no reason for requiring rods to be dried? :confused:

Inspectors And Engineers, Should Not Be Allowed To Get Thier Certs And Degrees, Until They Put Some Time Out In The Field, And Really Know What It Takes, Not Book Buyers....
Do you think that an airplane mechanic should also be a licensed pilot? If they all were, they'd spend so much time learning to fly that they'd be much less competant at their #1 job task of working on planes.

If you think a CWI just buys a book, you're very mistaken. If I remember correctly, about 50% fail the test..and you don't get a refund if you fail.

Up On Buildings,your Up Sometimes Hundreds Of Feet Above The Ground Hanging Over The Beem To Weld The Bottom Flanges On A Full Pen , And You Cant Even Get Inspectors Out There Without Soiling Thier Pants ,
Being hundreds of feet in the air is no excuse for making a bad weld, and if an inspector can't perform the duties of his/her job, they need to find another one.

As Far As Liability Iron Workers Take More Pride In Thier Work Than Anyone Else,
From what I've seen, it's far from the case. Most guys I know that that weld structural steel do it because they're not good enough to pass a pipe test.

The Danger Is All On Us Walking The Steel, Hanging The Iron, Putting Our Lives At Risk , So You People That Work Indoors Have A Warm Place To Work, Every Bridge You Drive Over Every Building You See, Ironworkers Put The Lives On The Line ....for You!
No offense, but somebody put their life on the line driving a truck that hauled your food to the grocery store too. In fact, you being on steel (tied off as you should be), you're at less risk than the guy that drove the truck.

We all risk our lives every day. It's really not that big of a thing. :drinkup:

[RALBITRE63]

SOME RISK MORE THAN OTHERS,
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BEING TIED OFF , ALSO YOUR FRIENDS THAT WELD STRUCTURAL STEEL ARE PROBABLY RATS AND IF THEY CANT WELD PIPE, WHICH IS NOT A BIG DEAL THEY SHOULD NOT BE WELDING AT ALL, MAYBE THEY SHOULD STEP DOWN THE FOOD CHAIN AND TAKE A PAY CUT AND BE AN INSPECTOR......AND I DID NOT SAY SINCE WERE UP IN THE AIR THE WELDS WERE BAD,
THEY ARE BETTER THAN MOST SHOP WELDS....AS I AM ALSO AROUND SHOPS THAT FAB THE IRON THAT WE ERECT.......


UNION IRONWORKERS WORKERS BUILD AMERICA, other crafts just follow........

[RALBITRE63]

A Inspector Or Engineer Should Not Try To Become A Welder But They Should Get Thier Hands Dirty And Get A Taste Of What They Are Trying To Convey.........

[Engloid]

SOME RISK MORE THAN OTHERS,
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BEING TIED OFF ,
You surely didn't, because if you were tied off, your life isn't at near the risk. If you don't tie off walking steel, you're not brave...you're a fool.

ALSO YOUR FRIENDS THAT WELD STRUCTURAL STEEL ARE PROBABLY RATS AND IF THEY CANT WELD PIPE, WHICH IS NOT A BIG DEAL THEY SHOULD NOT BE WELDING AT ALL,
I've met a lot of "rats" that were good welders. Also, if you think welding plate is no harder than welding steel, you're very mistaken.

MAYBE THEY SHOULD STEP DOWN THE FOOD CHAIN AND TAKE A PAY CUT AND BE AN INSPECTOR.
What makes it a step down, the fact that they typically make more money? :confused:


UNION IRONWORKERS WORKERS BUILD AMERICA, other crafts just follow........
Kinda like you follow the concrete guys? :laugh:

Don't forget that by the time you get to the job, the pipe guys have likely already done one tour of the site, doing underground work...and will be back again to do more.

I can see your points, but you really give the impression that most ironworkers do...that of arrogance. Hopefully, you're not really that way and are just venting or something. Remember that other crafts are just as necessary as yours. You depend on them just as much as they depend on you.

[RALBITRE63]

Actually Concrete Guys Follow Us Ironworkers, We Also Put In The Rebar In The Footings , Then They Pour The Concrete, Inspector's Inspect The Rebar Also ''before'' The Concrete Goe's In.......
And Yes Other Craft's Do Follow Us, And I Think It;s Because Our Union Is So Much Stronger Than Theirs, They Do Need Our Backing In Job Related Instances.

When Your Connecting Steel With The Crane, Being Tied Of Is A Hinderance, And Can Get You Hurt Just As Fast , It Takes A Different Breed To Run Around Up There To Connect The Iron, If Your Tied Off In Some Cases And You Have To Move Out Of The Way Fast , Trying To Untie You Self You Might Not Have Time And Can Be Crushed Or Worst.

[Ultrachop]

Great thread! Brings back memories of when I was working with the Iron Workers building High Rise Elevators, fact is I learned to stick weld from the Structual guys! In Alaska, in 70's and 80's I was one of only a few that could test for welding the machine beams and rail brackets to meet the siesmic specs (I remember being in a couple of situations where the only way I could weld the verticals were vertical Down, I got good with a gouge too, for either back gouging or redoing my crappy first pass.

I haven't stick welded in about 15 years until a couple of weeks ago when I got my new Dynasty 200dx. I bought a couple pounds of 1/8' 7018 and I ran one fillet horizontal and was flat impressed how easy it ran I left the dig set at factory default, but now confident that this machine could make me look good in any position?

I can ditto the post that stated that it is surely possible to weld a bead that looks good that won't pass a test consistantly.

As for the quality of weld put down by Ironworkers versus pipefitters, I must say I have seen a lot of talent in both trades as well as some that would short circuit a lot of protocal any many different ways just because the new they could get away with itl.

It wasn't till just recently that I was made aware that there was 7018 rod that was both AC/DC and some that was designed to run on just AC. We used to do a lot of rail brackets with our little tombstone 225 and only got to use DC when we could work a deal with the Ironworkers or be on a big enough contract to warrant renting a DC machine. (oh would I have been in heaven with an inverter machine!!

Thanks for the valuable info in these threads,

Tim

[RALBITRE63]

Hi Tim,
How Long Were You You In Alaska,
We Had Done Alot Of Work Up There During The Pipeline Era.....

[Engloid]

When Your Connecting Steel With The Crane, Being Tied Of Is A Hinderance, And Can Get You Hurt Just As Fast , It Takes A Different Breed To Run Around Up There To Connect The Iron, If Your Tied Off In Some Cases And You Have To Move Out Of The Way Fast , Trying To Untie You Self You Might Not Have Time And Can Be Crushed Or Worst.
That's just an excuse not to be safe.

Wearing a seat belt might get you killed also, but the odds of getting killed because you didn't wear it are much greater.

You're better safe than sorry. Don't let your ego, or the egos of others (peer pressure) take your life. It's just not worth it. Companies pay you for the time it takes to be safe, so why not do it. Union workers fought for years to get laws that require an employer to provide a safe workplace. If we circumvent the safety rules, we're spitting in the face of those that paved the way for our workers' rights.

Ok...I'll get off the soapbox now. :laugh:

[RALBITRE63]

Most Of The Time We Cant Be Safe Its Not An Excuse, Ego ...at Times, But We Are The Guy;s That Are There First And We Make Safe Working Platforms For The Other Crafts, To Do The Initial Erecting Of A Building And To Move From Point A To Point B You Cant Be Tied Off Until You Have The Frame Work Erected, It;s Not Feasable , Nor Safe To Lock You Self Into A Spot Without A Quick Way Out, Thats Why We Get Away With More Things Than Other Crafts, We Also Have Our Own Section In Osha;s Book To Allow Us To Do Our Job Safe Or Not.....
Until You Or Anyone Else Knows The Feeling Of A Beam Swinging At You As You Sitting Atop A Column, You Can Say Its Not Safe But To Us It's The Ways It Has To Be Done, Step Into Our Shoes, And You Would See That Some Things Just Have To Be Done That Way To Get Done.....
Hey Engloid.......merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!

[Ultrachop]

Ralbitre63,

I started in the Elevator Trade in 1970 worked as a IUOE maintenance mechanic/welder before that on the Pipeline (when it originally started in 1968. I moved to Alaska in 1957 and homesteaded in Cooper Landing (on the Kenia) until the 64 quake. I learned to be a better welder from a fitter named Smitty (one of the few Alaskan's certified to weld on the the 48" stuff? I will always remember the set of pots he tigged for me as a wedding gift! (He died of an apparent Heart attack at his wilderness remote home in SE Alaska (another story)

As for being on the job first, It was usually the Rod benders/Concrete Guys and Us the Elevator constructors. WE had to make sure they put the structure in the right place so we could build an elevator in the Elevator shaft not the stair well or the vent shaft. (ha, ha)

Tim

[qaqc]

RALBITRE63,
Wow, you sure have your opinions. Why do certified pipe welders make more than certified ironworker's? I think that it is because that they are more proficient at making difficult welds, due to access or exotic metals. I have been a welder, an ASME/API inspector, an inspector for AWS/FEMA/ICBO/ICC(structural,high rises,and bridges), and am now a QCM for a fabricator. I have climbed out on 6" beams 600' in the air, covered in UT gel. Checking on erectors amp/volt settings, fit-up,inspect welds, inspect bolting. Gone everywhere the ironworker's go. They do provide a unique skilled service that not all can do. BUT they are not to be worshiped as you have seen fit to do. Everyone works together. Think of a construction site as a car. Let's say the ironworker's are the engine. Engines are great, but they can't do much without fuel. They can't go anywhere without tires. They will not work without a battery or alternator. We are all part of a machine, none are more important than others.

[lugweld]

To get this back on track. Nice work Duane. Anyone questioning why someone would want to use these rods really never has had much wide ranging experience. Most farm oriented welds give little thought to "drying" out rods. The rods used on most farms may sit in an open box on top of a welder with the flaps on the box handing open for a several years or more before they are consumed. Many of these welds are overstressed and poorly fitted up. You may never find a hot box in 1 farm out of 1000. Those "crummy weldors" feed you and everyone else with their "dangerous" welds everyday.

Particularly, a farmer doesn't want to know the technical parameters of a rod he is using. He just asks one question: Will it work? I think that is Duanes approach here. There are many good and decent welding businesses where I live here and do wonderful work on the site. I haven't seen a single hot box on a truck to fix an axle that broke on the rear of a cotton picker. More likely, you will find several fire extinguishers though.:D

For you guys working on those glow in the dark situations. Sure use your rod ovens. Follow up by disposing of those "wet" rods. Use only sealed containers etc. I don't want to see a cloud of radioactive gas hovering over my house.

BUT for most uses of everyday welding, certain techiniques are not required and ARE NOT an ECONOMICAL solution. Most every field has a cost analysis that is included in recommendations. Apparently AWS does not consider that very much in their recommendations. But most business have too. So it is good to see how far we can "stretch" the recommendations in non critical areas so we know how we can control costs.

[qaqc]

Most every field has a cost analysis that is included in recommendations. Apparently AWS does not consider that very much in their recommendations. But most business have too.


They do. They have found it is cheaper to utilize SMAW electrodes per manufactures recommendations and engineering experiences than have failures and kill people. Much cheaper to pay for a rod oven than a lawsuit.

[Jamie Webb]

This thread has REALLY made me step back and think about a few things. First will be to set my QA/QC crew down 1st thing Monday morning and MAKE SURE they are checking what they are supposed to be and make sure our Ironworkers are NOT cutting corners!!!

[Hammer]

As far as 7018s needing to be heated and dry at all times. If you can great, but its not always possible. The better part of 20 years on the steel with not much more than my Ranger10 running, Im not gonna waste time with having my helper run rod to me everytime I run low. It just didnt make since. My welds were spot on and I didnt doubt that. And the fact that Im not a union welder didnt make mine any different than any others. Ive carried 6G and Pipe and I dont remember the Pipe being easier to pass. In the same frame, I never used a rod that was flaking apart. I didnt leave rods out in the rain to get wet but if it seemed they werent dry enough, a little time with the exhaust blowing into the box did the trick. Infact "tricks" were the bread and butter for us back in the mid 80s when I was still young enough to climb and before I fell. We may and may not have done things by the book, but we never left a job halfassed. I wont leave my opinion of union welders I worked next to on many of the 50/50 jobs I worked back in DC. But what I will say is, I earned every damn dime I made. You have to be smarter than the work youre doing. Sometimes you have to do "it" to get the job done. A good welder is a good welder, doesnt matter who he works for.

[Jamie Webb]

We may and may not have done things by the book, but we never left a job halfassed.

Not to sound too harsh here.... but if you did not do it by the book... you did do it halfassed.

Here is what I do not understand. Unless you own your own welding company and are working for yourself, you are most likely working for someone else AND getting paid by the hour. By shortcutting "the process" you are also costing yourself money.

[weldbead]

jamie...
regrettably sometimes the boss doesnt encourage "by the book ". and gives that impressionto the workers..even to the point of encouraging them to get it done...

[Supe]

jamie...
regrettably sometimes the boss doesnt encourage "by the book ". and gives that impressionto the workers..even to the point of encouraging them to get it done...


And all too commonly for that matter. Such is the reason I stopped pursuing a career in chassis fabrication. Nothing like being told to "get it out of here" when a person's safety is on the line.

[Craig in Denver]

This thread is one concern for nuclear power plants. Hurry up, we're against a time line. I'm no 'greenie', and I'll be gone before congress allows the next one to be built. We had the St. Vrain power plant here that never worked properly and it's since been torn down. Graft and corruption follow the money.

[MarkBall2]

Yep, several posts create concerns.

Seems the engineer's/architects/etc, etc.... all created a structure with specifications built into it. It's been said here some say they are much smarter than the ones that created the specs. Sounds like the worker bee don't like being told how to do the job. That said, if the workers that choose to "do it they way they want & ignore the specs" worked for me, they would find themselves in jail pretty danm quick.

Imagine you needing to have some sutrures put in from an accident at work. A doc comes in & says "We need to ensure there is no extra metal/glass/foreign objects in the arm, we also need to ensure the ligiments/tendons are repaired properly. This surgery is risky, but we have safeguards in place to minimize the risk". Now another doc comes in & says "nope just lop the leg off", because it's easier.

Taking shortcuts with peoples lives is not the worker's job. Leave that up to the engineer that designed the structure. I call the workers that take short cuts IDIOTS, and have seen the after effects of some of those shortcuts.

Now back to the testing.