12 on 12 branch test

[Tye's Welding]

I am getting this test figured out--I think. One question I have is how to cut the throat and point of the riser and how to cut the round piece from the other pipe. What I am refering to is what piece do I cut a bevel and what piece do I cut flat? When I was working on it yesterday, it seems like it would be easier to weld up if I beveled both pieces. BUT, this isn't what a pipeliner told me, he said only bevel one or another, not both pieces. Thank you for any help. --Tye

[A_DAB_will_do]

Yes, you're typically only going to bevel one side of the joint. So far as I know, you should bevel the header, not the branch. By 'header', I mean the 'top' of the Tee. The branch would be the leg of the Tee.

Do you have a copy of the 'pipe fitters and pipe welder's handbook', by Thomas Frankland? It contains complete instructions on how to cut, prepare, and fit branch connections. Hobart Welding Instittute sells this, www.welding.org, or you can purchase from Amazon or another online bookstore.

A good pipefitters reference book is the best place to start...I like the one I mentioned above, but there are others as well.

[Tye's Welding]

I have, "The Pipe Fitters Blue Book," by W.V. Graves. Seems to be a good book but if there's better- I ll buy it! Thanks for the tip. Headed to Amazon right now to look up Thomas Frankland's book! --Tye

[Tye's Welding]

A Dab will do, Thanks for the advice. Just ordered the book. itll be here tomorrow - hopefully itll answer the rest of my questions. --Tye

[A_DAB_will_do]

Franklands book is comparable to the blue book. I don't have a copy of the blue book, but I'm surprised the answer isn't in there.

Pages 87-89 in Frankland's book has a procedure for laying out a branch connection. I'd double check this is OK with whoever you're testing with.

Good luck.

[Tye's Welding]

A Dab will do, oviously you know what you are talking about with this 12 on 12 test. This will be my first time taking this test, do most testers want you to use a template or lay it out the long way? I wont get paid to take it-i guarentee it cuz ive never taken and passed it before. Do they generally want first timers laying it out the long way or use of a template? thanks. --Tye

[A_DAB_will_do]

Don't assume too much Tye. I've only taken this test once before, but I've been where you are now, trying to find out as much in advance as possible. The one previous occasion I took the test they had a template available for laying it out.

I figure on the job site they don't want anybody spending time laying this stuff out by hand. It takes a while to do it the long way.

IMHO,

Just like grade school, you can do long division with a calculator, and get the right answers. But it's good to know how to do it by hand as well. If you've got the book and know the basic method, you can yank out the book when you have to layout a connection that isn't a perfect right angle and the template doesn't fit...

[Tye's Welding]

I figured they wouldnt want someone taking more time than they had to on a test like this but who knows. That book you recommended will be here today and I think the rain will hold off today long enough to get some practice in. I am hoping to take this test maybe as early as the end of next week. The bank account is getting a little thin, so gotta make a move.

[Tye's Welding]

Got the book. A lot more descriptive than the one I already have. Now if the rain would shut off for a day--

[kacotton]

I'm new to this forum, kinda just stumbled upon it by accident, but as a pipeline welder I have taken the branch test a time or two. I've always called the piece that you saddle the Tee and the piece you cut the hole in the Header, but that's neither here nor there, I just point that out to avoid confusion in my post. Most of the time when you show up on the job to test either a template will be provided or the Tee's will already be cut, all you will need to do is clean them up so that they fit almost perfectly, with very little light or no light at all showing when you place it on the Header, bevel the Tee and cut a hole in the Header. Provided that they're not already cut and you dont have a template then the only other option is to lay it out by hand, there are instruction is the Pipefitters Blue Book, but it makes laying one out sound more complicated than it already is, sadly I cannot figure out how to type it out for you, I could explain it if I could show you but, that's also neither here nor there. On the other hand i can tell you what to look for in fit up. When you are grinding the bevel on your Tee you will want to periodically check it against the Header, I know thats ridiculously obvious but better safe than sorry, when you use the Header to check the Tee I think it's easiest to use a piece of soap stone to mark the "high" spots so that you will know exactly where it needs to be ground down. Whenever it looks like it may hold water without being welded, I take two 3/32 welding rods and bend them into a U shape to use for spacing tools. Put the "spacing tools" between the Tee and Header in the throat of your Tee on both sides then with a trace the ID of the Tee onto the Header with a piece of soapstone, if it is cut properly it will be difficult to mark all the way to the tip of the ears of the Tee, so i always trace the ears on the outside also, then kinda split the difference of the ID and OD marks for the ears. once you are satisfied with the marks you can cut a hole in the Header, square cut not bevel. Check fit up again, don't forget the spacing tools. If you don't use the spacing tools in marking the hole for the Header then the ears of the hole will be too long for the ears of your Tee and you'll have a huge gap to weld, not fun. Trim and grind the hole as necessary so that there is a slight edge inside the Tee when it is sitting on the Header, you'll probably wanna be able to barely bump the edge of the hole with a welding rod in the throat area of the Tee. After all that work all there is left to do is tack it up and weld it out. I try to step the root pass in rather than drag it to make sure both the bevel edge of the Tee and the top edge of the Header are completly broken down and welded together, I've had trouble with undercutting the root pass with the drag method. I dont know if I helped or made any sense, I may be telling you stuff you already knew or maybe there's a better way, but that's how I do it and everyone seems to have their own style, just take what you can and if I was no help then... dammit this was a waste of time... hahaha

I'm not that great at laying them out and cutting them so my secret is grind, grind, grind the **** out of it!

[casey_hill_1984]

kacotton told you just how to do it follow those directions and you cant go wrong....just remeber youd rather cut small and grind a lot and get perfection than cut big grind a little and have to fill like a bit*%.....plus some inspectors will fail you just for a bad fit up

[cmpipeliner]

Tye I'm a 798 pipeline welder and I've done this test dozens of times, and one thing kacotton didn't mention is once you have it fit up and ready to tack, remember that they're going to cut your test straps in the center of the "ears" and "throat", so try and tack it off with a long bead across these points. Doing this will eliminate any starts and stops right in the test strap areas. Most people will agree this test is illegal to use in pipelines, but none the less you have to do it. It's both a fitters test and an all position test. A majority of the inspectors are not looking for perfection, but it needs to be clean, and somewhat pretty. True pipeliners will tell you that you've got all day to get the fit right so take your time and get a good fitup!

[klbwelding71]

kacotton,

when you talk about stepping the root pass you mean like how you would do it on a 6G with a 6010 or Uphill? Just wanted to clarify that. Thanks, Shawn

[kacotton]

Like you would if you we're welding an uphill root. ;)

[kacotton]

Oh and thanks for posting about the test straps cmpipeliner. I totally forgot.

[stevenwm]

Hello welding forum.

I came across this forum and see it has been almost 6 months since someone has commented here on the 12 on 12 branch.kacotton has it going on along with cmpipeliner.

I wanted to try and explain how to use the pipefitters blue book to lay out by hand without a template the Tee (i.e.Riser) that goes on the header.Some companies will not let you use a template and will want you to use your blue book and tape measure and wrap-around.

Ok you will have your tee (i.e.Riser) in your pipe-jack stands.You will want to measure back from the square cut end of the piece of pipe about 5 inches and make a mark which will be your rap-around mark.After making your mark around the entire OD of the pipe with your soap-stone then take a piece of adding machine paper and rap-around the entire OD of the pipe and let it lap over about 2 inches and tear it off and the paper should be as neatly wrapped around as was when you made your mark with the rap-around with the torn paper over-lapping then take a sharp knife and cut the adding machine paper so it will rap-around the entire OD of the pipe and the paper shoud meet at the top and be exactly the OD of the pipe on your rap-around mark with both ends of the adding machine paper meeting at the top of your Tee (i.e.Riser Saddle)you are laying out for the header.

After getting your adding machine paper cut to rap-around the pipe and meet then take the adding machine paper and let both ends meet perfectly and fold a crease in the paper.You will fold the paper evenly and square as possible 4 times since the layout will be in 16 parts.After folding the paper 4 times then take your sharp knife and cut off the 4 corners of the paper and when un-folded will look similar to paper dolls only with the notches on both sides of the paper.

Rap your adding machine paper back around your rap-around mark to where the ends of the paper meets and take your soap-stone and make a v mark at each cut mark on the adding machine paper.Your 1st mark will be your CL (i.e.center line top) Mark and your 8th mark will be your CL (i.e.center line bottom and you will make a CL mark at your 1st and 8th soap-stone mark and after you have made all of your soap stone v marks you will have a total of 16 marks with a CL Top and CL bottom.

Then take a piece of angle iorn roughly a 1x1 and lay it across each mark and mark a line from your original rap around mark to the end of the end of the pipe which will be 16 marks side by side running from the rap-around line to the end of your pipe which will be 16 - 5" inch long marks.Look in the pipefitters blue book by W.V.Graves on page 29 in the top left hand corner under the 12 inch header and you will see 12 inch riser and the measurements.You start your 1st mark on your top CL (i.e. both center lines these are the throats of the Tee Riser.

I will do my best to draw a picture below.Just think of the pipe un-rolled and laying out flat.

Here are your 16 marks on the pipe.



start your marking clock wise.

Top CL line 1st mark >------v 7/16"-------------------------------.

2nd line 2nd mark >------------v 1 - 7/16"----------------------.

3rd line 3rd mark>--------------------v 3 - 1/4"-------------------.

4th line 4th mark >-------------------------v 4 1/4"---------------.


Roll your pipe to the bottom CL and start you marks again in the above order only counter clock wise.

5th line 5th mark>----------------------------v 4 1/4"---------------.end of pipe.

6th line 6th mark >------------------------v3 - 1/4"-------------------.

7th line 7th mark>--------------------v1 - 7/16"---------------------.

Bottom CL

8th line 8th mark>-----------v 7/16th-------------------------------.


Then roll the pipe back to the top CL and repeat this starting counter clock wise.As you look at your check marks it is like connecting the dots with soap stone but you will fold your rap around at an angle and draw a line from mark to mark from your CL`s.After you have done this take your torch and cut it out and repeat what Kacotton and Cmpipeliner said to do and you will make this test everytime. The above is only 1/2 the pipe which is 8 of the 16 marks..

Take care and good luck.

Stevenwm.

[Holman_11]

This may be a dumb question but no one has mentioned this do you cut your circle on the header to match the id of the branch?

[slow6i]

This may be a dumb question but no one has mentioned this do you cut your circle on the header to match the id of the branch?

Put the "spacing tools" between the Tee and Header in the throat of your Tee on both sides then with a trace the ID of the Tee onto the Header with a piece of soapstone, if it is cut properly it will be difficult to mark all the way to the tip of the ears of the Tee, so i always trace the ears on the outside also, then kinda split the difference of the ID and OD marks for the ears. once you are satisfied with the marks you can cut a hole in the Header, square cut not bevel. Check fit up again, don't forget the spacing tools. If you don't use the spacing tools in marking the hole for the Header then the ears of the hole will be too long for the ears of your Tee and you'll have a huge gap to weld, not fun. Trim and grind the hole as necessary so that there is a slight edge inside the Tee when it is sitting on the Header, you'll probably wanna be able to barely bump the edge of the hole with a welding rod in the throat area of the Tee.

??? that looks like an answer to your question to me :)

[Holman_11]

Thanks didn't see that till
The second time I looked I'm going to be taking this soon and for the first time trying to figure out heat setting on a redface sa 200 I'm running on third and thirty for root seems good the hotpass is perfect. My fill is with 5/32 70+ at 3rd and 50 - 55 seems ok but not sure what to cap it with 3/16 or 5/32 one bead cap or two?

[4KIDS]

I got a question on how you weld 3/16 rod on pipe specially on 3o'clock and down

[74hotrod]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, but the fit up is mostly what the inspectors are looking for, around here you have to take a 6" 6-G to weld on the firing line, a 12 on 12 to make tie ins. Although a mitered fit is illegal on a transmission line they want to know that you know how to fit up and then make the weld.Only bevel the bullhead side of the tee and make all weld according to the welding procedures(uphill or downhill).Also I have never have my branch cut out for me,but they did provide a template for me to use.After I prep my branch I placed it on my header and marked out the inside of the branch and proceded to cut the inside of the lines.I hope i haven't stepped on any toes but its just my opinion

[Awelderiam]

Ok........First of all.....in order to test to API 1104 standards and be qualified to weld on all diameters, positions you will have to take both a open groove butt weld and the branch tests, no choice. Also in the API 1104 code section 6.3 says the welder shall lay out, cut, fitup, and weld a full size branch on pipe fitting, hence the fabrication portion of the test, so if this is being done for you then it is "not" a vaild API test. And yes you will perform this exact action if you will be doing any hot taps, unless you will be using a full encirclement reinforced tee fitting.

Not all companies test to API 1104 mine does not, we use ASME IX for all pipe welds.

[Awelderiam]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, but the fit up is mostly what the inspectors are looking for, around here you have to take a 6" 6-G to weld on the firing line, a 12 on 12 to make tie ins. Although a mitered fit is illegal on a transmission line they want to know that you know how to fit up and then make the weld.Only bevel the bullhead side of the tee and make all weld according to the welding procedures(uphill or downhill).Also I have never have my branch cut out for me,but they did provide a template for me to use.After I prep my branch I placed it on my header and marked out the inside of the branch and proceded to cut the inside of the lines.I hope i haven't stepped on any toes but its just my opinion

The branch is not a miter fit...a miter fit is any angle the exceeds 3 deg from square on a square cut end bevel, could also be called mis-alignment. Not high-low and not a branch fitting.

You must be welding under ASME IX.....if you tested on a 6" 6G under API 1104 then you could only weld on 6" and smaller piping. The branch test is not anything outside of the Multi-qualification testing of API 1104.....just dont understand why you were tested that way...wierd.

[Welder/CWI]

All,

It sounds like you all have good experience with this test. I am a CWI and have given this test several times. When I stumbled across this site I thought that here is a great place to let some beginners and some welders that maybe have welded for many years a few tip, things I have seen welders do wrong. Because when I give this test I am not allowed to help the welder in any way. It is up to them to know what to do.

** This is a great tip that I learned from a veteran welder**
------A coulple of years ago I was testing a veteran welder. After he had his "T" all fit up he came and asked me if he could use solder in his test. I was really puzzled after hearing his request. This guy was a real jokster so I said "hell as long as you can get it to stik I don't care if you fill it up with bubble gum." He said "no I just would like to use it for my "fit-up". I figured this would be good time to learn something. What he used it for you as a welder will find this very helpfull.

He cut 4 peices of 1/8" solder about 1 1/2" long. He put them on the branch hole in 4 even spaces. He just bent them into a U shape and pinched them on the edge of the hole from ID to OD. When he set the "Branch" part of the T onto the "Header" they stayed in place really well and they where soft so they would give or "smash" flat when he wanted to close the gap a little and it was a 1 man job at that piont. After the fit was complete he simply took his torch and melted them away. Since this I have shared this little tip with every welder I know or meet. I hope this will help you to.

When fitting the Brand test up take your time and don't get frustrated. You can go on the web and buy a template that has the sadle and it also has the hole pattern for the header. I would recommend to use one of the templates instead of trying to cut it out from using the Blue Book. Not saying that the Blue Book is wrong but I leave it at this "The templates will fit A LOT better for you."

Food for thought** The terms that old timers and eperienced welders that have been around for the two parts for a Banch test are the "Branch and Header". The "Header" is the one you cut a hole in and the the "Header" is the one with the sadle cut on it. There is two parts to the sadle also and they are call the "crotch and the apron"

If this helps you please let me know. I have had to opportunity to weld with some of the best welders in the country and am glad I can share I few helpful tips. Please if you have any pointer let me know.

When you are taking this test are you required to cut a full hole in the header or are you allowed to leave a lip on the insder? I usually have the welders I test cut a full hole, but I have taken it both ways. Just curious.

Happy Trails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[74hotrod]

The branch is not a miter fit...a miter fit is any angle the exceeds 3 deg from square on a square cut end bevel, could also be called mis-alignment. Not high-low and not a branch fitting.

You must be welding under ASME IX.....if you tested on a 6" 6G under API 1104 then you could only weld on 6" and smaller piping. The branch test is not anything outside of the Multi-qualification testing of API 1104.....just dont understand why you were tested that way...wierd.

I never said that a branch test was a mitered fit. I just stated a mitered fit isn't allowed on the line.
The line was a 6" line with 2" branches off of the firing line.

[74hotrod]

When you are taking this test are you required to cut a full hole in the header or are you allowed to leave a lip on the insder? I usually have the welders I test cut a full hole, but I have taken it both ways. Just curious.

Happy Trails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've always been required to have a full bore on my header.

[SR20steve]

All,

It sounds like you all have good experience with this test. I am a CWI and have given this test several times. When I stumbled across this site I thought that here is a great place to let some beginners and some welders that maybe have welded for many years a few tip, things I have seen welders do wrong. Because when I give this test I am not allowed to help the welder in any way. It is up to them to know what to do.

** This is a great tip that I learned from a veteran welder**
------A coulple of years ago I was testing a veteran welder. After he had his "T" all fit up he came and asked me if he could use solder in his test. I was really puzzled after hearing his request. This guy was a real jokster so I said "hell as long as you can get it to stik I don't care if you fill it up with bubble gum." He said "no I just would like to use it for my "fit-up". I figured this would be good time to learn something. What he used it for you as a welder will find this very helpfull.

He cut 4 peices of 1/8" solder about 1 1/2" long. He put them on the branch hole in 4 even spaces. He just bent them into a U shape and pinched them on the edge of the hole from ID to OD. When he set the "Branch" part of the T onto the "Header" they stayed in place really well and they where soft so they would give or "smash" flat when he wanted to close the gap a little and it was a 1 man job at that piont. After the fit was complete he simply took his torch and melted them away. Since this I have shared this little tip with every welder I know or meet. I hope this will help you to.

When fitting the Brand test up take your time and don't get frustrated. You can go on the web and buy a template that has the sadle and it also has the hole pattern for the header. I would recommend to use one of the templates instead of trying to cut it out from using the Blue Book. Not saying that the Blue Book is wrong but I leave it at this "The templates will fit A LOT better for you."

Food for thought** The terms that old timers and eperienced welders that have been around for the two parts for a Banch test are the "Branch and Header". The "Header" is the one you cut a hole in and the the "Header" is the one with the sadle cut on it. There is two parts to the sadle also and they are call the "crotch and the apron"

If this helps you please let me know. I have had to opportunity to weld with some of the best welders in the country and am glad I can share I few helpful tips. Please if you have any pointer let me know.

When you are taking this test are you required to cut a full hole in the header or are you allowed to leave a lip on the insder? I usually have the welders I test cut a full hole, but I have taken it both ways. Just curious.

Happy Trails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is some cool info there, never thought about using solder for spacing. At my work we aren't allowed to make "homemade" fittings like branches and are only allowed to use true pipe fitting like o-lets, but I hate when I get my wire stuck from fit up. I wonder if the melted solder can affect certain metals at all?

[mmtuning]

Excellent Thread. Solder trick is a great tip. Thanks for the info!

[LawsonWeldingLLC]

Ok........First of all.....in order to test to API 1104 standards and be qualified to weld on all diameters, positions you will have to take both a open groove butt weld and the branch tests, no choice. Also in the API 1104 code section 6.3 says the welder shall lay out, cut, fitup, and weld a full size branch on pipe fitting, hence the fabrication portion of the test, so if this is being done for you then it is "not" a vaild API test. And yes you will perform this exact action if you will be doing any hot taps, unless you will be using a full encirclement reinforced tee fitting.

Not all companies test to API 1104 mine does not, we use ASME IX for all pipe welds.



API 1104 is not a code, it is a standard, and its up to the company.

[spurwelder]

I am getting this test figured out--I think. One question I have is how to cut the throat and point of the riser and how to cut the round piece from the other pipe. What I am refering to is what piece do I cut a bevel and what piece do I cut flat? When I was working on it yesterday, it seems like it would be easier to weld up if I beveled both pieces. BUT, this isn't what a pipeliner told me, he said only bevel one or another, not both pieces. Thank you for any help. --Tye

I dont want to rude but you dont have this test figured out if you have to ask which piece do I bevel . You need to find someone that knows how to cut one out and weld it up .When ever we test I mean us pipeliners we would get laughed out of there at a question like that . It isnt a shame to ask a local pipeliner to show you how .When you go cut out your branch piece put your spacers in before marking I also will mark outside of the ears as well

[Davidbrown]

Why is there no shame in asking a local "pipeliner" but there is in asking here? Everybody begins green.

Bevel your header, two caps are the standard for most header/branch, but I have never seen a 12 on 12 header.

[EWS]

Ok........First of all.....in order to test to API 1104 standards and be qualified to weld on all diameters, positions you will have to take both a open groove butt weld and the branch tests, no choice. Also in the API 1104 code section 6.3 says the welder shall lay out, cut, fitup, and weld a full size branch on pipe fitting, hence the fabrication portion of the test, so if this is being done for you then it is "not" a vaild API test. And yes you will perform this exact action if you will be doing any hot taps, unless you will be using a full encirclement reinforced tee fitting.

Not all companies test to API 1104 mine does not, we use ASME IX for all pipe welds.

I may be wrong but I would think that if the API standards book states "butt weld" it would technically be wrong with how I interpret the English language. I don't believe there is really a "butt weld". It doesn't really make sense to me to call that a weld. I see it as a grove weld on a butt joint for this particular test.

I also have never seen anything but manufactured custom encirclements for hot tapping. I haven't been exposed to fabricating one in the field or anything of the sort on natural gas pipelines. If I may and just for clarification, can I ask what type of hot tap you are referring to when you suggest that may be an exact action performed while hot tapping?

One more question real quick, I was under the impression that in order to be qualified to perform hot taps with a company using API 1104 standards you must successfully pass an Appendix B sleeve qualification test that includes a branch test. Does this sound correct?

[Rig Hand]

I may be wrong but I would think that if the API standards book states "butt weld" it would technically be wrong with how I interpret the English language. I don't believe there is really a "butt weld". It doesn't really make sense to me to call that a weld. I see it as a grove weld on a butt joint for this particular test.

I also have never seen anything but manufactured custom encirclements for hot tapping. I haven't been exposed to fabricating one in the field or anything of the sort on natural gas pipelines. If I may and just for clarification, can I ask what type of hot tap you are referring to when you suggest that may be an exact action performed while hot tapping?

One more question real quick, I was under the impression that in order to be qualified to perform hot taps with a company using API 1104 standards you must successfully pass an Appendix B sleeve qualification test that includes a branch test. Does this sound correct?

Every gas company's hot tap qualification is different, some give a wet sleeve test but, more and more are going to a lo-hy butt and branch test for in-service work. I have welded full encirclement tap fittings on with lo-hy and I have fabricated tee's that were welded on live lines using cellulose rods. All depends on the company and sometimes even the engineer.

[rigwelder85]

I just did a weld marathon for my company! It was a 12 on 12 branch test, a 12"bell hole, and a hot tap simulation(split t)! 10hrs later aced everything but man that branch is no joke! Fit up and cleanliness is super important! Know where the coupons are gonna be taken(usually one from each ear and each throat) do not start or stop anywhere in those regions