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acesneights1
07-18-2009, 09:36 PM
I am a little rusty using a stick welder and I wasn't that good at it when I used to but what rod and what setting should I be using to weld the arm back together on my skid steer. I started doing it with 3/32 7018 but I have to use alot of heat and have burned though in a few spots. it's a tough spot to weld. Plating over it will possibly interfere with where it fits in. I snapped a pic of the settings on my welder. it's a Lincoln Ranger 8.
Thanks.

Boostinjdm
07-18-2009, 09:52 PM
Good thing you took that pic. Change your setting to DC+.

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 09:56 PM
Is that what I'm doing wrong ? I know I used to be able to weld a little better than this has turned out so far. Thanks. I forget, is DC- for overhead welding ??

Boostinjdm
07-18-2009, 09:56 PM
Also, you can grind your weld down flat, then cut a hole in a piece of plate to fit around that bushing, use 3/16" to 1/4", and then run one pass around the perimeter of the reinforcing plate and one pass around the bushing. As long as the over all width of the arm is less than the width of that bushing you should be ok. Hope I explained that ok. I fixed a lot of bobcat arms at work.

Boostinjdm
07-18-2009, 09:57 PM
7018 is always dcep. the only thing I can think of to run dcen (with stick anyways) is 6013 on thin material.

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 10:09 PM
dcep= dc+ ?
dcen=dc-?
Yes I understand what you mean I wa thinking about trying to do that . The only place I have a clearance issue is the bottom. I can't plate that so best thing then is to grind down flat what i did and then plate the outsides around the bushing.
Got it.
Thanks.
Is 3/32 the rod to be using ? The only thing I kinda know is the 70 or 60 part is the tensile stength right ? And the 13 or 18 is the flux. Just want to make sure I'm using the right rod.
Thanks.

Boostinjdm
07-18-2009, 10:16 PM
7018 is the right rod. Plating the sides is pretty much a must, the top and bottom aren't always nessesary(sp?) , but do help. Sounds like you understood everything else I said. Good luck.

Make sure you run that rod uphill.

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 10:33 PM
Thanks. Got it.

geezer
07-18-2009, 10:34 PM
125 would be my going in setting for 1/8th, especially on .250 material. If my material was thinner, I would not hesitate to use 3/32, but at a lower initial setting. Just my approach.

Works on my Ranger 8. Then I use remote control to adjust heat if needed.

7018: 1 stands for all position. Last number coating.

We weld overhead routinely with 7018 and 6010 DCEP (reverse polarity).

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 10:36 PM
OK so DC+ is reverse Polarity. I am new to this welder. I learned on an old Lincoln Torpedo and it didn't have that option.

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 10:36 PM
What does the other adjustemnt do ? I kinda figured it was like a fine adj.

geezer
07-18-2009, 10:45 PM
You set the initial setting with the large toggle switch. 75, 90, 125 etc.,

Then use the round dail to adjust the current from minimum to max. EG, If you set the toggle switch at 125 and turn the round dial all the way clockwise, in theory you are at 125AMPs. If you turn the dial counterclockwise you are reducing the current.

I think there is an operators manual on the Lincoln www site you can download. That would help you allot. If not there, try google and one will probably pop up.

DSW
07-18-2009, 10:49 PM
Thanks for the pict of the machine settings that helps alot in attempting to determine issues.

7018 likes clean steel and doesn't like a lot of rust, grease, paint etc. so be sure and clean all of that up real good. From the looks you didn't do that to start. All of that crap can get trapped in the weld and cause a failure later. I would definitely plate that end where ever possible and extend it up a bit to strengthen the damaged area.

Be sure to check that the bore is still in line with the bucket if that ripped apart as bad as it looks to have been. That could cause 2 issues. 1st just being able to put the unit back together. Nows the time to just check, before you plate it up and have to cut all of it apart when the pin won't go in right. 2nd is if the pin is out of alignment some but not super bad. Hard to tell with that from the picts. Sometimes you can move the joint by hand to see if you can feel a bind. If not, just keep an eye on that pin for excessive wear. A badly worn pin can be almost impossible to remove if it wears eccentric.

Also I don't know how you damaged that side, but from experience, I have found that often both sides may have similar issues. I would clean up the other side very well to remove all grease and loose paint and carefully check for signs of cracks in the area that failed. It would not surprise me to find more cracks if you look close.

geezer
07-18-2009, 10:59 PM
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/navigator/im/IM510.pdf

this may be the Ranger 8 manual, not sure, dial up too slow for me.

Good advice DSW. 7018 likes it clean. Same as 6013. 6010 and 6011 can tolerate not so clean material. I find best success running 6011 on AC and 6010 on DCEP.

Graydevil
07-18-2009, 11:05 PM
The other dial is for arc control for start up.. like for instance if you are welding on really thin metal then you want to turn it down and just the opposite for thicker metal.. it helps the penetration for start up basicly.. 70 or 60 is tencile strenth 1 is all position and the 8 is the flux.. If ti was me i would grind it all back out and start over dc- is less penetration dc+ is what you want for penetration.

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 11:07 PM
I actually welded as much of it as I could while the pin was still in so it wouldn't be out of alignment so hopefully i did ok. I did wash the area I was working with cleaner and did grind but if I go larger, I'll have to grind more. Pin was tight and in good order. I "think" I actually broke it backing into a tree. I will clean it up better and I am definitely going to plate it. I would have power washed it but like a dope I took it apart in the garage so now I have to clean it the hard way.
Thanks again.

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 11:09 PM
The other dial is for arc control for start up.. like for instance if you are welding on really thin metal then you want to turn it down and just the opposite for thicker metal.. it helps the penetration for start up basicly.. 70 or 60 is tencile strenth 1 is all position and the 8 is the flux.. If ti was me i would grind it all back out and start over dc- is less penetration dc+ is what you want for penetration.

Yeah, I am not happy with the way it looks. I'm going to grind it back down.

Hammack_Welding
07-18-2009, 11:21 PM
The other dial is for arc control for start up.. like for instance if you are welding on really thin metal then you want to turn it down and just the opposite for thicker metal.. it helps the penetration for start up basicly..

arc control for start up??? The Ranger 8 is setup just like my GXT. You have the range selector. 90, 125, 175, etc.... and the dial is the fine current control. Set the pointer to the range you want, and then the dial is used to fine tune your amperage.

farmersamm
07-18-2009, 11:22 PM
Just to stir the pot. Not in a bad way:nono:

Every printed procedural reccomendation I've seen from Lincoln regarding rods says to remove loose rust with a wire brush. That's on the rods we're talking about here.

I always figured as long as you got a good electrical connection, can start, and maintain the arc, the flux takes care of the rest. I might be wrong. I always thought impurities rose to the top of the puddle.

An Iron oxide, is after all, an Iron oxide. It's basically the parent metal. I'm not sure on this.

Grinding seems to be a must on low voltage low amp wire welding, but seems to be not too necessary with a stick process at higher amps:confused:

farmersamm
07-18-2009, 11:30 PM
180 max on the GXT means max. Then you dial it down from there. Next lowest range being 130. So you're dealing with a range between 130 and 180amps. The fine tune lets you set it from 130-180 in increments

Like Hammack said

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 11:39 PM
No DSW is right. there was grease on it. I should have cleaned it better. I don't have alot of welding experience but I do know that 7018s are real finicky. I know If I had to weld something rusty and I couldn't clean it up and strength was not an issue I would use either 7014s or 6013s. They were alittle more forgiving but I notice if you do lay a nice bead the 7018s look pretty good. Anyway tha's what experience I have had. In reality this arm is so thin it could probably be mig'ed with a good mig welder but mine is a glorified batt charger. it's only good for doing sheetmetal/autobody stuff. I actually still braze alot, not this obviusoly :D

sidthss
07-18-2009, 11:40 PM
It all depends on the type of rod you are welding with. Like it was previously stated, 6010, 6011 rods dont care as much about what is on the surface of the metal, but they are deep penetrating rods, so it isnt as much of a worry, 7018 ..... are not made to have the same amount of penetration, so any oxides or other crap on the surface of the material you can get off makes it that much easier for the rod to get better penetration and to keep from contamination the weld.

acesneights1
07-18-2009, 11:43 PM
But the 7018 is the rod to use for strength right ?

sidthss
07-18-2009, 11:47 PM
Yes, just as long as you have prepared the base metal corretly, 7018 is the rod I would use for this fix.

DSW
07-18-2009, 11:49 PM
7018 would be my choice for this.

maarty
07-18-2009, 11:57 PM
7018 is dcrp, direct current reverse polarity. This means the electrode is positive and the ground is negative. As someone already mentioned, your polarity setting is wrong. Make the electrode positive. Your amps are a bit high for a 3/32 rod, at 125. This would be pretty good for a 1/8 rod. Remember, the ball park amp setting should be the decimal equivalent of 1/8, which is 125. So your setting was too high and the wrong polarity. If i were you I would grind everything flush, down to clean steel. Get some 3/16 or 1/4 flat bar and reinforce what you have done, Bring the new metal a good 6" back from the first repair. Make sure all the paint is off before hand.. Hold a close arc. Also, put the ground clamp as far away as possible, to reduce arc blow. PS... cleanliness is next to godliness in welding

maarty
07-19-2009, 12:11 AM
Oh, and just to stir the pot back at you farmersam. An oxide is not the parent metal. Rust is the result of oxidation, just as slag is the result of even greater and more rapid oxidation of a oxyacety torch. Oxidated metal interferes with the purity of the weld. The flux protects the molten weld puddle from oxidation. It stabilizes the arc. It slows the weld from cooling. Rust in the weld zone can cause porosity, and in the extreme, lack of fusion. It is also a poor conductor.

farmersamm
07-19-2009, 01:16 AM
Time to stuff the old pie hole. Freshetta Pizza:blob2:

X-Ray welds aside.............

Seems to me all this fascination about cleaning the B Jesus out of the base metal doesn't hold a candle to learning what amps make for good penetration on different thickness of metal.

That, and making a good serviceable weld. I sorta think the rest takes care of itself.

They don't put flux on rods for entertainment.

Now I'm not saying be a slob, but how far do we get crazy here.???

In a real world, non pipeline sorta way

farmersamm
07-19-2009, 01:22 AM
Oh, and just to stir the pot back at you farmersam. An oxide is not the parent metal. Rust is the result of oxidation, just as slag is the result of even greater and more rapid oxidation of a oxyacety torch. Oxidated metal interferes with the purity of the weld. The flux protects the molten weld puddle from oxidation. It stabilizes the arc. It slows the weld from cooling. Rust in the weld zone can cause porosity, and in the extreme, lack of fusion. It is also a poor conductor.

I probably ought to get more careful. But the kind of welding I do is, I guess, is not too fantastic.

I guess I better go find out what the exact composition of the rust is.

Thanks for the nudge

Boostinjdm
07-19-2009, 01:24 AM
Well Sam, for 7018, oil free, rust free, and shiny, is the only way to fly. The arc will be more stable, and the puddle easier to control. 7018 should also be new from a sealed container or fresh from the oven. It makes a huge difference in how they run and how strong the weld is.

mb_welder
07-19-2009, 02:00 AM
7018 DCEN is good for low hydrogen roots, but not much else! :blob1:

DCEP or bust!

mb_welder
07-19-2009, 02:03 AM
I guess I better go find out what the exact composition of the rust is...


Brown and red and when the steel itself is rotted out, it doesn't weld for sh*t! (a subject for another thread when I can upload pictures to my computer at home!) :D

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 09:32 AM
Can you elaborate on the oven ? My buddy who's a welder on LI told me about that one time. The 7018 I am using right now are pretty new but I have some older 7014 that have oxidized a bit. Are they junk or can I bake them and what temp for how long ?

DSW
07-19-2009, 09:47 AM
Low hydrogen electrodes like 7018 are very moisture sensitive. In some critical applications they need to be kept heated and used within a specific time period or they are rejected for use. 7018 will absorb moisture just from sitting open in air, high humidity makes it worse.

Other electrodes are not as critical. I was given a 50lb box of 7014 as well as some 5P+ that had gotten wet at some point by a friend when I was taking my 1st stick class. The instructor suggested heating the 7014 to be sure that it was dry from the box getting wet, but said that it wasn't necessary to keep those rods heated. The 5P+ he said would be ok as long as the rods were not dripping. These were just to learn to get the feel of different rods and to practice.

As far as your 7014, it depends greatly on what the rods look like and what you are going to use them for. I would say they are fine for tables, fixtures, fixing a mower deck and so on, but would probably get new rod for something critical like a trailer or hitch.

I try and just buy new 7018 for those jobs that are important. I buy as little as I can to reduce the leftovers as I don't use stick enough to warrant spending the money to keep rods heated to drive off moisture for the leftovers. I usually toss the leftover rods in a sealed "junk" container. I keep them for "practice" and to set up the machine before I start any important jobs to get my hand back in to it.

Here's Lincolns procedures for drying rods. It's near the very end on page 46 IIRC.
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/c210.pdf

snoeproe
07-19-2009, 10:31 AM
DC+ will not penetrate as much as DC- will. 7018 is the rod you want to use for welding the arm on your skid steer but use DC+ polarity. You burned through partly because of the DC- polarity you used. Clean it up good with a grinder and re weld.

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 10:37 AM
Thanks. Looks like I can redry the 7014s but not the 7018s. My wifes oven don't hit 7-800 degrees :eek:
It's amazing how great these forums are. I neve realized how quickly rods can go bad. I used to buy 50lb boxes of them. Now I know better. I do have the sealed rod containers. So basically from what I read sealed in box rods from lincoln last indefintely but once opened they should be restored to a sealed contain asap and kept in a warm place. Guess I'll be tossin some rods or like you said use for stuff that's not critical.

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 10:41 AM
You know, I don't know if they do this anymore but IIRC the welding supply I used to deal with, you could by rod by the pound and it wasn't in sealed containers. I guess that wasn't a good practice. I know the 50lb box I bought was just cardboard, not plastic sealed.

snoeproe
07-19-2009, 11:06 AM
our rod ovens at work for 7018 are kept at 160 degrees f.
your kitchen oven will work for that purpose.

maarty
07-19-2009, 11:23 AM
Let's all just agree; direct current reverse polarity means that the electrode is positive. A 7018 rod should never be used with a straight polarity setting, ie, electrode negative. With a straight polarity setting there will be a very significant amount of arc-blow, making arc and puddle control very difficult. The likely reason you blew holes is that your amps were to high. I also notice the ground clamp is close to the weld zone; here are at least three variables working against you: wrong polarity, amps to high and ground clamp too close. I will hazard a guess that the ground clamp may not have been as tight as it could have been; I use a C-clamp, vice grip, or somtimes tack the ground to the work. I also guess that you may have been holding too long an arc, but the wrong polarity and high settings are the greatest culprits.
From a fabrication point of view; you should have done as much of the job with the pin in the bushing, attached to the part, to minimize distortion.
Oh, and 7018 rods will generally flash off all of the moisture after the first inch of the rod has been burned. This is why x-rays often show pososity at the start of each weld.

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 12:50 PM
OK. I did weld as much of it as I could before I removed the pin. That much I do know. So I started over this am. Had to bring out "big Momma" to grind that mess off. Little 4" would have taken too long. How's it looks so far. I can tell you it's welding 1000x better. Remember guys, I'm not a pro just a semi skilled amatuer so be gentle. :D
I would guess I should do multiple passes on everything ?
Also not to make excuses but I do have carpel tunnel and bad elbow joints so I kinda shake a little.:eek:

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 12:55 PM
Also I am running uphill right ? And what should the loops be ? I was taught to do a kinda of a J.

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 01:40 PM
Here's an update.

maarty
07-19-2009, 02:19 PM
Brother, I have seen worse. Not bad for a part timer. I just wonder if you could have raised that arm, got on a ladder, and welded most of it on the flat? Remember, use both hands when welding, and get as comfortable as possible. It looks like you have the amps right, not bad!

maarty
07-19-2009, 02:21 PM
mmmm, that's not a blue and white can of flammable reducer in the background there, is it?

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 02:43 PM
mmmm, that's not a blue and white can of flammable reducer in the background there, is it?

oops...:blob2:
Thanks. Taking the arms off would have been a crazy big job plus I don't have the equipment here to do it. it's all one piece and very heavy and the hoses etc would have had to come off. i realize ideally that is how it should have been done. probably shuld have cut the whole piece out and reconstructed it with staggered seams, but it's a 30 yr old machine on it's last legs anyway. I don't push it hard at all. I think it will be okay. BTW dropped the arms back down and pins lined up perfectly so that is a relief. I just use the machine around my yard. it's "semi-retired"...:D
It was good to learn a few new tricks and blow the dust out of the welder. I have owned it for 4 yrs and this is the first real welding job I have done with it it. I paid 1200$ for the welder with cables on ebay. It needed the carb cleaned from rotten gas and two bolts drilled out on the valve cover.

acesneights1
07-19-2009, 02:45 PM
Brother, I have seen worse. Not bad for a part timer. I just wonder if you could have raised that arm, got on a ladder, and welded most of it on the flat? Remember, use both hands when welding, and get as comfortable as possible. It looks like you have the amps right, not bad!

That's funny, I do use both hands cause I shake a little and thought that was the wrong way to do it. Cool.

acesneights1
07-20-2009, 12:07 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for all the help. Machine went back together without a htich and is back to work.:cool2:

maarty
07-20-2009, 06:59 PM
Happy to hear it bro, if you need to ask something you dont get an answer for here you can drop a line at maarty10@hotmail.com

William McCormick Jr
07-20-2009, 07:57 PM
Low hydrogen electrodes like 7018 are very moisture sensitive. In some critical applications they need to be kept heated and used within a specific time period or they are rejected for use. 7018 will absorb moisture just from sitting open in air, high humidity makes it worse.

Other electrodes are not as critical. I was given a 50lb box of 7014 as well as some 5P+ that had gotten wet at some point by a friend when I was taking my 1st stick class. The instructor suggested heating the 7014 to be sure that it was dry from the box getting wet, but said that it wasn't necessary to keep those rods heated. The 5P+ he said would be ok as long as the rods were not dripping. These were just to learn to get the feel of different rods and to practice.

As far as your 7014, it depends greatly on what the rods look like and what you are going to use them for. I would say they are fine for tables, fixtures, fixing a mower deck and so on, but would probably get new rod for something critical like a trailer or hitch.

I try and just buy new 7018 for those jobs that are important. I buy as little as I can to reduce the leftovers as I don't use stick enough to warrant spending the money to keep rods heated to drive off moisture for the leftovers. I usually toss the leftover rods in a sealed "junk" container. I keep them for "practice" and to set up the machine before I start any important jobs to get my hand back in to it.

Here's Lincolns procedures for drying rods. It's near the very end on page 46 IIRC.
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/c210.pdf

I think the whole point of the 70-18 rod being kept dry is because of the amazing metal that it produces, and is meant to produce, when arc welding. It was the "A" rod at one time. The bond is very good, in fact at one time it was considered the only rod to use for anything important.

You can burn wet or damp 70-18 rods but what is the purpose of it? You just have to get it hot.

I believe that when so many welders were not getting good welds with a 70-18 rod, in the quickly changing welding environment, they said well lets get some other rods. Rather then look for another method of fabrication.

Now these other rods are ok. Some rods like 70-14 have some titanium in them. But with any new substance you introduce some new element, ha-ha. I mean that sincerely, I just thought it sounded funny.

Titanium might at first seem like the greatest thing since ice cream. But in reality it can cause some strange effects and stresses. Create bizarre weak spots in what would normally be a strong weld. Cracks can develop later on because the titanium weld has different characteristics then the steel.

The 70-18 rod is going to give you the most you can get out of a weld. I am no expert when it comes to arc welding. However I noticed an extreme strength difference with 70-18 over, 60-10 and 70-14 no matter the type of weld, the position or anything else.


Even in AC the 70-18 AC or DC rod, outperformed the other rods.

Sincerely,


William McCormick