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kolot
01-14-2010, 10:40 PM
Lincoln Commander has no output on welding or aux. power connections. Any one have experience with these?

duaneb55
01-14-2010, 10:52 PM
No, but got a code#?

7A749
01-15-2010, 09:14 AM
Lincoln Commander has no output on welding or aux. power connections. Any one have experience with these?

If you get stumped, give these guys a call

www.billswelderrepair.com

Kaye Sellon is one of the best Lincoln engine drive techs I personally have talked to. She may be able to help.

I don't know anything about them other than they were the predessor to the Vantage series.

duaneb55
01-15-2010, 10:06 AM
With no weld AND no auxiliary output, primary common factors are rotor, brushes, field voltage and a host of harness connectors.

I agree with Steve in that Bill and Kaye are one of the best sources for troubleshooting help.

kolot
01-15-2010, 09:24 PM
Model is K-1505-1 I beieve it is a 1999 and the code is 10469. Is it simiar to the SA in that no weld and no aux. a problem with exciter. or aux. power OK and no weld usually a shunt coil? Don't even know if the innards on these are like the old SA. I would tend to doubt it but might have different equipment that do basically the same. I put and email in to Kaye , have not heard back yet. She is quite busy I would imagine.

7A749
01-15-2010, 09:33 PM
Model is K-1505-1 I beieve it is a 1999 and the code is 10469. Is it simiar to the SA in that no weld and no aux. a problem with exciter. or aux. power OK and no weld usually a shunt coil? Don't even know if the innards on these are like the old SA. I would tend to doubt it but might have different equipment that do basically the same. I put and email in to Kaye , have not heard back yet. She is quite busy I would imagine.

If you wanna get Kaye, call & ask for her specifically. Best way to do it. May have to try a few times, but tell the lady that answers that you NEED to talk to her & you will most likely get Kaye at some point.

The Commander does have solid state circuitry, meaning boards & other SS stuff. I will stop at that, not knowing much more. I have been told by many they are nothing close to the level of the Vantage in refinement & overall performance.

But, like I said, I know little more so I will stop at what I do. :)

Good luck with it.

duaneb55
01-15-2010, 10:42 PM
The Commander 300 is definately different from the SA in many ways with all the electronics as Steve pointed out but one similarity is it relies on residual magnetism in the rotor to kick things off.

Has it been sitting unused for a long period of time?

Recently disassembled for any reason?

Suffered a hard shock as in being dropped?

You could try a quick 12vdc rotor flash and see if that gets it going. Positive brush is closest to the rotor windings (wire #200A) if you consider doing it.

kolot
01-17-2010, 03:53 PM
Duane, thanks for the info, I bought 2 of these that have been sitting. I got them because they have a wire feed mode and they are diesels. Kind of high hours at around 6K. 1 runs pretty well and the other will not start with heavy black smoke. May be timing belt gone bad. I have noted that I see at least 2 burned spots on the board that is for engine protection. It will not auto idle, but when I apply 12 volts to idler it does. No output from weld studs or aux power. I will need info on where to get boards, if they can be checked or rebuilt. Is Lincoln the only source? Diesels are a Deutz F3L 1011F, not to worried about those, Just don't know where to start the electrical trouble shoot. I will try a reflash. In Lincoln's owners manual there is no provision for reflashing like you find in the SA and the Classic. Anyone know if the procedure is different. Also any info on circuit boars would be appreciated. One thing I will ad, although there weigt is comparable to the SA, these things are huge with a 25 gallon tank.
One other thing, I opened 1 up and I saw what looked like small slip rings but I didn't see anything that resembed the rack and brush holder of and SA200. Are the slip rings all that run this unit?

prop-doctor
01-17-2010, 04:45 PM
these folks maybe able to rebuild the boards
www.industrialelectronics.com
check their site for listing of machines/boards
good folks to deal with

jsfab
01-17-2010, 04:56 PM
The Commanders are AC alternators, unlike the SAs, which are DC generators. Considerably different. If you have burn marks on a board, almost guaranteed there's a problem with that board.

I always check the brushes first. Not only to be sure they are still long enough, but to be sure they aren't sticking in the brushholder.

Billy
01-17-2010, 07:55 PM
Are you able to use multi meters?
Feel competent to test electrics and electronics?

If so, rather than walk you through it, which would take a lot of my time which I do not have at the moment, I can send you a lot of info.
But only if you are competent and comfortable with testing.

kolot
01-18-2010, 12:50 AM
Comfortable with multi meter, My son Just finished trade school, good with electrical and electronics he is even better , information would be appreciated and not wasted , thank you.

duaneb55
01-18-2010, 02:03 AM
One other thing, I opened 1 up and I saw what looked like small slip rings but I didn't see anything that resembed the rack and brush holder of and SA200. Are the slip rings all that run this unit?

Basically, yes. That's one of the "definatley different from the SA in many ways. . ." although I only mentioned electronics. As jsfab pointed out, the Commander is an alternator and thus the smaller brushes. Even smaller than the SA200 exciter brushes.

To flash the rotor just apply 12vdc (+) from the unit battery (use a jumper wire) momentarily to positive brush (closest to the rotor windings). The negative brush gets dc (-) thru the the unit harness. Obviously if flashing the field results in restoring weld and auxiliary output, it can't so anything about a fried control board.

You can check with the folks at Industrial Electronics as prop-doctor suggested even though they don't list the Commander in the units they service boards for. I sent them an e-mail about a Maxstar 140 control board (they don't list that one either) but never heard anything from them.:(

Sounds as if Billy has what you need to get to the bottom of whatever is wrong.

Billy
01-18-2010, 05:11 AM
Comfortable with multi meter, My son Just finished trade school, good with electrical and electronics he is even better , information would be appreciated and not wasted , thank you.

OK I trust what you tell me.
Send me your email address and I will send you the info.
Lucky you have 2, you can swap out parts. But do not rely on say one board being burnt and another "appearing" to be OK. Ascertain what took out the pcb out in the first place, maybe it just failed, maybe not.
Do all the pre power tests first. Otherwise you may take out something else.
Take it slow and easy. Write down results from both machines.
THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS. So perform ALL tests. Also this will help you to understand your machines.
The machines are unknown quantities so you will have to treat them as such.

Good Luck

denrep
01-18-2010, 11:09 AM
. . .The machines are unknown quantities so you will have to treat them as such. . . .

Okay, yah got me!

What does "unknown quantities" mean? :confused:

Good Luck

Billy
01-18-2010, 06:34 PM
Okay, yah got me!

What does "unknown quantities" mean? :confused:

Good Luck

Put simply, it means you do not know what is in the box yet! As in problems, and how many problems.

duaneb55
01-18-2010, 08:24 PM
When you put it that way Billy it does make sense. I guess it's just a regional phrase issue.:D

Billy
01-18-2010, 08:45 PM
When you put it that way Billy it does make sense. I guess it's just a regional phrase issue.:D

Yes Duane, bit like when I first came on this site and you guys are talking about GAS powered generators that we call PETROL powered.

Lots of terms used that have different meanings depending on where a person is from. :)

kolot
01-20-2010, 09:32 PM
Well I would like to thank Billy publicly, he has provided me with a very comprehensive troubleshoot list on this unit , but this is definately not a weldanpower or SA200. It will take me some time but I will likely be able to turn this one around now. First price I got on the engine protection board was $560, This may take some time and money.

7A749
01-20-2010, 09:38 PM
Well I would like to thank Billy publicly, he has provided me with a very comprehensive troubleshoot list on this unit , but this is definately not a weldanpower or SA200. It will take me some time but I will likely be able to turn this one around now. First price I got on the engine protection board was $560, This may take some time and money.

www.industrialelectronics.com

Good place for board rebuilds once you find the problem.

Hope you figure it out.

7A749
01-20-2010, 09:41 PM
When you put it that way Billy it does make sense. I guess it's just a regional phrase issue.:D

Yeah. Those Aussies :rolleyes: Just kidding!

I will say Billy & I have had words, but he knows what he's doing & offers very good advice on technical stuff. Helped a few guys with things here.

At the end of the day, no biggie. I would buy him a beer if he was around. :)

And of course, introduce him to the BEST chicken sandwich EVER created by Human hands....

The Chick-Fil-A.........

kolot
02-04-2010, 12:17 AM
Latest is I have no ohm reading across the slip rings and only 12 volts across the brush leads when machine is running. Trouble shoot says it should be around 160 VDC.

duaneb55
02-04-2010, 12:56 AM
No reading across slip rings means bad rotor. The 12VDC is battery voltage from the Engine Protection PCB on wire# 200 for initial field excitation voltage. I gave you bad information in post #7.

The bad rotor means no magnetic field means not stator output means. . .

kolot
02-04-2010, 06:01 PM
Duane, that wasn't bad information, Bad info came from ABCO welding supply when I asked for a quote on a new rotor from Lincoln , ready, $2200. I sure hope he looked up the wrong numbers. It has no ohms between slip rings, 13 Mega ohms from the front ring to ground, and no ohms from the rear ring to ground. I sure hope a wire broke near the rings. Bills says he doesn't rebuild those. Anyone have a used one? Anyone need Commander Parts?? I did pick up two of these, One I put in storage on some property I own, guess I will have to bring it home and check it too. What are the odds of 2 bad rotors, with my luck, pretty good I guess. After looking in this and seeing how much could be spent on these my advice to myself and others is to stick to the SA?s. Would like to have CV. maybe a diesel 250 with CV. The lates newest Technology is nice but it just doesn't last apparently.

duaneb55
02-04-2010, 07:32 PM
Yeah, that is bad news and the rotor is definately the culprit. If the 'storage' unit rotor proves to be bad as well and you're still interested in reviving one of them you could check with these guys http://www.eurtonelectric.com/ on a re-wind. They do great work and their prices are right. Only issue is shipping to/from California. I'm sure you could find a reputable motor shop in your area as well and it's rarely necessary to buy new as re-winding is typically a very cost effective alternative.

And there's always that chance the open/short is accessible and can be repaired by yourself or that local shop. I've seen it before.

kolot
02-04-2010, 10:49 PM
Duane, when I pull it , what do I look for , a complete break obviously, but burned or melted spots. how far in might I find it and how would I repair it. splice and solder, what do I coat and insulate it with, Liquid Tape? Also on this machine I thought I had two burned spots but now at closer look i have what looks like an overheated and burned capicitor and a spot that someone either melted or cut away the clear plastic sealant to access a mini potentiometer on the board itself , presumably to change some characteristic of the machine, This is on the engine protection board. Could this condition have led to the problem with the rotor.?

duaneb55
02-04-2010, 11:34 PM
Pretty much 'yes' to everything regarding the rotor but as there isn't a real large current passing thru the rotor windings I'd be surprised if you found a melted mess. With the front slip ring shorted to the rotor frame, if visible, you'll most likely find its side of open circuit touching the laminations. The other side of the open will not be touching anything. If you manage to find it and are fortunate enough to be able to fix it, I typically use epoxy to seal/insulate a repair. There are spray/brush on insulations too.

As for the Engine Protection board, anything is possible and it certainly warrants further investigation. Any helpful information on the boards in the material Billy provided?

kolot
02-05-2010, 12:31 AM
Billy gave me a complete Lincoln trouble shoot for this machine, details a test for every component but the first tests were the rotor and stator , after finding the rotor open it kind of took the wind out of my sails. just a little set back I guess. Still will tear the rotor down for a better look. I'm not quite following you on shorting the slip rings, are you saying check them against the rotor shaft?

duaneb55
02-05-2010, 01:03 AM
I'm not quite following you on shorting the slip rings, are you saying check them against the rotor shaft?

You said you read continuity from the front slip ring to ground. If that's the case, you should also get a reading from the front ring to the rotor shaft and laminations (in essence ground). The windings simply start at one slip ring, wrap around the laminations and end at the other slip ring. No reading between the rings means there's an open (break) somewhere in the winding. A reading between the front ring and 'ground' means the end of the winding wire from the front ring is touching the laminations or rotor shaft (continuity) at the break. No reading between the rear ring and ground means the end of the winding wire from the rear ring is hanging in air and not touching anything (no continuity) at the break.

Bottom line, from your findings, I have no doubt the rotor is bad. It's only a matter of finding the open/short and seeing if you can give it a proper fix.

I suspect Billy is familiar enough with the unit to be of much greater help with any control board issues as well as the present topic but if you cared to send me what he sent you I'd be happy to look it over in an effort to assist you further.

fredf
02-05-2010, 01:20 AM
duane -- I think he said 13 MEG -- hardly a short . . .

fred

kolot
02-05-2010, 01:20 AM
Test procedure says slip ring to slip ring should ohm out at 23.5 It also says that when each ring is grounded ohms should be very high, at least 500,000. 1 gives me 31 mega ohm, that is OK, the other is open. what I don't understand is if the loop were closed (normal condition) why would there be any reading to ground. Yet manual says both should ohm as previously stated. I can send that info in AM, I am at work till the mourning and don't have it on this terminal. Thanks.

Billy
02-05-2010, 07:49 AM
Hi guys and Kolot
The resistance readings that you are getting from slip rings to frame should be fine. If one is Meg Ohms you could be just reading metallic dust or similar. Meg ohms is normally OK. Make sure that you are getting good contact with your probes to the slip rings, they can have crud on them and not read correctly. Before taking any readings on ohms always short the probes together to make sure you are getting a "dead short" you will still probably read around .2 ohm depending on quality of meter. Also careful not to "read" your fingers ie if you hold the probes in your hands you will get a megohm reading.

The engine protection board is just a monitor basically, an over engineered one at that!
It will shut it down if there is a problem. It may have had a spike from external source or just decided to fail.

But do not just slap another board in there in case it is an external problem that took out the original board. Do all the pre power tests.

Check the small bridge rectifier for input and output voltage. Also volts across the cap.

Definitely check the rotor in the other machine.

Any chance you can get any background on the machines?

I dont mind you sending Duane the info I sent you as he has a lot of knowledge and I dont always have the time to log on.
Just so long as it does not get into the wrong hands, such as a guy that really does not know what he is doing. I stay on the side of safety first and foremost.

denrep
02-05-2010, 09:03 AM
. . .only 12 volts across the brush leads when machine is running. Trouble shoot says it should be around 160 VDC.

Field current of 160 volts sounds way too high to me. But I don't know what you're working on.


. . .I dont mind sending (service information)
Just so long as it does not get into the wrong hands, such as a guy that really does not know what he is doing. I stay on the side of safety first and foremost.

Billy - In my humble opinion, withholding service data does nothing to enhance safety. For example, the above questioned 160 volt field current.

I feel the exact opposite - that open and free sharing of technical information does the most to enhance safety, and further productivity.
After all, whatever it is that you're guarding, was freely shared with you, correct? What if the author had also held your position?

I make it a point to not deal with, or to circumvent, manufacturers that engage in tactics of making parts or service information secret and proprietary.

Good Luck

kolot
02-05-2010, 10:18 AM
Billy, I thought later about getting your blessing on passing the info on, should have thought about it first as some of the checks can be dangerous. But I believe Duane more qualified than I. Also Denrep, the 160 V did not come from Billy , It is straight from a Lincoln Trouble shoot.
Billy you did me a favor sending me the info, I don't think you should, and I hope you are not kicked in the pants here for doing so.
Also I was a little leary of putting my hands in there while the unit was running to check across the brush leads so I taped my probes to a couple of my kids drum sticks, I kind of like the extra long probes and might leave them that way.

kolot
02-05-2010, 05:38 PM
Checked the rotor on my other unit, 22 ohms, so I have that going for me but that machine does not start and run. I have attached some pictures of the Engine Protection boards. The boards on both machines have identical damage and looks like someone tampered with the setting on what looks like a mini potentiometer on both boards as well. Apparently someone thought they knew better than Lincoln. Is this for setting the Idle down time between high and low idle. I need a little more experience with the board schematics.

duaneb55
02-05-2010, 11:21 PM
duane -- I think he said 13 MEG -- hardly a short . . .
fred
OK, not a 'dead short' I agree. Can we call it 'leakage' as in compromised winding wire insulation or bleeding thru burned wire oxidation or. . . ??

I consider any reading from a slip ring to ground bad news and not good - especially when it's OL between the rings.



I dont mind you sending Duane the info I sent you. . .
Thank you Billy. Very much apprediated.



I taped my probes to a couple of my kids drum sticks, I kind of like the extra long probes and might leave them that way.
Forgive me if I chuckle a little with that mind picture.:laugh::laugh:

Good news on the second rotor! Really bad news on those boards though. Definately need to find out the cause. As Billy says - "NO SHORTCUTS" here.

duaneb55
02-05-2010, 11:52 PM
kolot, I don't know what the 'pot' is for but as for being tampered with I'd wager it was covered with something prior to the protective coating being applied so it could be accessed for factory tuning. I base the thouhgt on how the mounting screw holes look very similar.

I have no idea what fried the board component.:confused:

Billy
02-06-2010, 05:39 AM
The trim pot is just part of the circuit sender to the fuel gauge.
The blown part is a 5w .5ohm resistor.
Likely other components have failed as well. Very difficult board to work on. Probably cheaper to buy one. After ascertaining what exactly took it out or did it just fail?

As Duane said the board is "potted". and the trim pot is supposed to be accessible to adjust. But do not touch it. Does it have a dab of something on it to stop it from moving due to vibration etc ?

A multimeter is a good guide as to leakage to frame but you really need a Megger meter, AKA Insulation resistance tester to take precise measurements.

Something is ringing a bell when I look at your pics. I am sure there was a problem with something taking out the board, and I think it was a free of charge upgrade.
I will see if I can locate it.
In the meantime do not go any further.

Billy
02-06-2010, 05:53 AM
Field current of 160 volts sounds way too high to me. But I don't know what you're working on.



Billy - In my humble opinion, withholding service data does nothing to enhance safety. For example, the above questioned 160 volt field current.

I feel the exact opposite - that open and free sharing of technical information does the most to enhance safety, and further productivity.
After all, whatever it is that you're guarding, was freely shared with you, correct? What if the author had also held your position?

I make it a point to not deal with, or to circumvent, manufacturers that engage in tactics of making parts or service information secret and proprietary.

Good Luck


OK............ now Denrep

I really do not give a rats a$$ what you think or do. I have my own rules and thats how it is. I will not even reply to a poster if I think that he does not have the ability to perform tests to my satisfaction. There are plenty of guys on here that are knowledgeable enough to help these people if they choose to do so, I choose not to.

I do not log in here very often but when I do and post something you tend to quote something trivial that I have said.
Do you have a problem with me or just a problem in general?

denrep
02-06-2010, 09:22 AM
OK............ now Denrep

I really do not give a rats a$$ what you think or do. I have my own rules and thats how it is. I will not even reply to a poster if I think that he does not have the ability to perform tests to my satisfaction. There are plenty of guys on here that are knowledgeable enough to help these people if they choose to do so, I choose not to.

I do not log in here very often but when I do and post something you tend to quote something trivial that I have said.
Do you have a problem with me or just a problem in general?

Good Morning Billy,

First the latter. No problem with you whatsoever. Only thing I remember quoting you on, was to clarify some wording that I didn't understand. I also posted a comment which underscores the irony in the reasoning that the withholding of knowledge, or censoring of discussion, can somehow further safety.


Anyway Billy, I have no problem with you. However, I may disagree with your core philosophies, in that I am for the completely free and open dissemination of knowledge. I'll freely admit that I vehemently despise oppressive suppression or control. And one of the flags of such attempts to control, is the secretive hoarding of knowledge, or information. Often such information is ostensibly withheld for the well-being of those uninformed. Not a big deal, just a little difference that entire wars have been -and still are- fought over.

The very essence of the computer network you are reading this on, is to further the free and open sharing of knowledge and ideas. To me, it seems hypocritical to use the Internet to further "class" knowledge. I hope my stand doesn't seem wishy-washy.

So staying relevant, we could ask ourselves where our welder repair knowledge would be today, if our predecessors had been clandestine with information. For example, what if welder manufacturers obliterated all parts identification, published no information or schematics, and insisted that any and all product information be retained at a factory level? Maybe even saw to it that laws supporting the manufacturer's position were passed?

When you consider how freely and openly Lincoln Electric shares its knowledge base, it's really a slap to their face to attempt to suppress any technical knowledge of their products.

Case in point. If this thread had been built like some others, with a focus on the open and cooperative posting and sharing of all relevant specifics, -for example snippets of schematics and specs- with the common pursuit of solving a problem, chances are Kolot would have a solution in hand by now.

Good Luck.

kolot
02-06-2010, 12:19 PM
Denrep, do not want hard feelings , but do not speak for me publicly, Thank You, kolot is quite happy with the response I have recieved here to date and will continue my trouble shoot as the info comes in. And I will add I did not want to start any war here, we are all good guys I'm sure.

denrep
02-06-2010, 07:28 PM
Commander Kolot - Regarding this, I haven't spoken for you, or for anyone else, publicly or privately. What I made was a general observation of the threads direction, which I'm sure was not deliberately directed by any particular person.

Though I have no Shaman powers, and am not privy to any inside classified information, I would bet my rat's a$$ that the damaged engine protection board and its external circuitry are not integral with the welder's basic function. Engine protection is probably an auxiliary circuit which could somehow be disconnected and ignored until basic generator function is restored. With that said I will scurry out of here.

Good Luck

Billy
02-06-2010, 08:22 PM
Good Morning Billy,

First the latter. No problem with you whatsoever. Only thing I remember quoting you on, was to clarify some wording that I didn't understand. I also posted a comment which underscores the irony in the reasoning that the withholding of knowledge, or censoring of discussion, can somehow further safety.


Anyway Billy, I have no problem with you. However, I may disagree with your core philosophies, in that I am for the completely free and open dissemination of knowledge. I'll freely admit that I vehemently despise oppressive suppression or control. And one of the flags of such attempts to control, is the secretive hoarding of knowledge, or information. Often such information is ostensibly withheld for the well-being of those uninformed. Not a big deal, just a little difference that entire wars have been -and still are- fought over.

The very essence of the computer network you are reading this on, is to further the free and open sharing of knowledge and ideas. To me, it seems hypocritical to use the Internet to further "class" knowledge. I hope my stand doesn't seem wishy-washy.

[QUOTE]So staying relevant, we could ask ourselves where our welder repair knowledge would be today, if our predecessors had been clandestine with information. For example, what if welder manufacturers obliterated all parts identification, published no information or schematics, and insisted that any and all product information be retained at a factory level? Maybe even saw to it that laws supporting the manufacturer's position were passed?

Have you ever seen a chinese manufacturer supply this info?
Even the majors user manuals do not go into depth of there products.
The reason that the majors do not do it is because of safety, some information in the wrong hands is extremely dangerous.



When you consider how freely and openly Lincoln Electric shares its knowledge base, it's really a slap to their face to attempt to suppress any technical knowledge of their products.

Rubbish!



Case in point. If this thread had been built like some others, with a focus on the open and cooperative posting and sharing of all relevant specifics, -for example snippets of schematics and specs- with the common pursuit of solving a problem, chances are Kolot would have a solution in hand by now.

I sent Kolot very comprehensive info on this matter for exactly that purpose, apparently you have forgotten that part or did not read it. This particular machine is a complex piece of equipment, not something that can be solved in 5 or so posts. It is not O/A equipment.

If you have seen what I have seen of work performed by others then maybe you would change your mind but then again maybe not. And these guys had there own manuals.

Anyway have some cheese, crackers and perhaps a beer or 2 and chill out.
I am over it.

Billy
02-06-2010, 08:47 PM
Hey Kolot I found the info I was looking for.
If the idle control circuit fails it may take out the board being discussed.
The fix is installation of a circuit breaker kit. With a part number of
S25445 in all machines that qualify.

You will have to contact Lincoln, but in the first instance I would definitely contact a service guy first and let him push it through for you. That is what they are for. There are service guys and then there are service guys, try and find a "friendly" one.

The bulletin number is 2019A regarding the fix.

Now, I do not know how you will go with the rotor.

Just put them back together, no missing screws or bolts, or external damage.

Hang on I will see if I can paste in some of the details..........



S
ubject: IDLER AND ENGINE PROTECTION SYSTEM ON COMMANDER 500 AND
COMMANDER 300 - POSSIBLE DAMAGE (THIS NOTICE SUPERCEDES AND CANCELS 2019).

SYMPTOM:
We have discovered that if certain components in the idle control circuit fail, peripheral damage may
occur in the Commander 500. Because the Commander 300 has a similar design, it is being included
in this Service Notice.
SOLUTION:
Manufacturing upgrades, which involve circuit breaker protection, have been added to the design of
both the Commander 300 and Commander 500, code number 10899 and higher. This circuit breaker
protection will help to minimize possible peripheral damage.
For prior models of the Commander 300 and Commander 500 with a Lincoln code number noted
above in the "Scope" of this notice, we recommend the installation of a circuit breaker kit part number
S25445 in all machines that qualify. Please forward all machines within the suspect range to
your nearest Lincoln Authorized Service Facility for arrangement of the kit installation. The service
will be at no-charge to the machine owners.
Credit for part number S25445 and 1 hour of labor will be issued on receipt of a Lincoln Electric
warranty report form at the factory.

Cheers
Billy

kolot
02-07-2010, 12:23 AM
Billy, this sounds applicable seeing 1 of the problems with this machine is it won't auto idle. are you saying I should box it up and send it off to a lincoln repair for a circuit breaker upgrade? On Lincoln.
Denrep, The more you type the stronger you make Billy's case for misuse of info. Quote/
"Engine protection is PROBBABLY and auxillary circuit that could SOMEHOW be disconnected " Generator function has already been determined, Running , No voltage across brush leads, that takes the rest out of the equation, no power at source. No disconnecting of anything. The fact that you use "probbably" and " somehow" leads me to not be as sure of your knowledge as you are. Goal here is not short cuts, it is to properly diagnose and restore total and correct function of the machine. Getting a new board and powering it up is expensive if some other component is gonna take the board out again. As I said, don't want a war , but won't be abused either. I am no electronic wiz, but I'm not a door knob either. To use your expression, I don't give a rat's A$$. And I would still buy you a beer tomorrow. Enjoy the Super Bowl.

Billy
02-07-2010, 03:56 AM
Billy, this sounds applicable seeing 1 of the problems with this machine is it won't auto idle. are you saying I should box it up and send it off to a lincoln repair for a circuit breaker upgrade? On Lincoln.
Denrep, The more you type the stronger you make Billy's case for misuse of info. Quote/
"Engine protection is PROBBABLY and auxillary circuit that could SOMEHOW be disconnected " Generator function has already been determined, Running , No voltage across brush leads, that takes the rest out of the equation, no power at source. No disconnecting of anything. The fact that you use "probbably" and " somehow" leads me to not be as sure of your knowledge as you are. Goal here is not short cuts, it is to properly diagnose and restore total and correct function of the machine. Getting a new board and powering it up is expensive if some other component is gonna take the board out again. As I said, don't want a war , but won't be abused either. I am no electronic wiz, but I'm not a door knob either. To use your expression, I don't give a rat's A$$. And I would still buy you a beer tomorrow. Enjoy the Super Bowl.




Billy, this sounds applicable seeing 1 of the problems with this machine is it won't auto idle. are you saying I should box it up and send it off to a lincoln repair for a circuit breaker upgrade? On Lincoln.

Yep and it should be free of charge. Ring a service guy first and tell him that the board's are shot and quote the number for the upgrade. He will obviously have to inspect both machines before he does his paperwork. Do not let them tell you that something else has caused the problem and want X amount of dollars. Like I said find a "friendly" service guy. They have to replace boards and fit the breaker kit's free of charge.

denrep
02-07-2010, 10:54 AM
. . .Denrep, The more you type the stronger you make Billy's case for misuse of info. Quote/
"Engine protection is PROBBABLY and auxillary circuit that could SOMEHOW be disconnected " Generator function has already been determined, Running , No voltage across brush leads, that takes the rest out of the equation, no power at source. No disconnecting of anything. The fact that you use "probbably" and " somehow" leads me to not be as sure of your knowledge as you are. Goal here is not short cuts, it is to properly diagnose and restore total and correct function of the machine. Getting a new board and powering it up is expensive if some other component is gonna take the board out again. As I said, don't want a war , but won't be abused either. I am no electronic wiz, but I'm not a door knob either. To use your expression, I don't give a rat's A$$. And I would still buy you a beer tomorrow. Enjoy the Super Bowl.

First off, I don't want to take full credit for the expression, I just recently learned that one from Billy. Second, Kolot, I'm not abusing you. Also, I don't believe that I think you're a "doorknob" whatever that means. To be clear about it, I have no hard feelings with you or Billy or anyone else here.

Now back to the Commander and my final comment here. I'd like to just clarify what I was getting at, maybe it'll help some future troubleshooter, after this I'll leave it alone.

In review, at post #24 and #28 we thought we had a bad rotor, correct? In other words, if that's so, the Commander has been torpedoed and has taken a major hit, correct? A critical decision has to be made to either abandon ship or try to patch a major the hole. I don't recall reading specifics about the stator, that could be an unnoticed second hit. Then... at post #38 we're talking about buying a circuit board. It seems like the figure of $600 was mentioned somewhere.

No, I don't know the exact particulars of this machine, thus I used terms like "probably" and "somehow" as I thought out loud and proceeded with caution. However, I do understand brush-type AC generator function. I also am familiar with the typical "sourced component" manufacturing scenario. With that, I was willing to bet my rat's a$$ (thanks Billy) and say that Lincoln probably (there's the P word again :nono:) designed this machine with an engine protection module that was not mandatory for basic generator operation.

Testing a basic assembly by isolating and eliminating peripheral components is a valuable and workable troubleshooting method. With the limited information available here, I was betting that the welder's basic function could be tested without first buying expensive boards, such as the engine protection module. Yes, I could be wrong, in which case my rat would be short one a$$. But if I'm right, Kolot won't have to gamble with a $600.00 board experiment. Notice who has the most to gain from this?

The reason I was suggesting actual testing, -before spending- was to determine the welder's overall condition and the worthiness of further repair$. It's your machine and your money, do as you please. However, I will say that unnecessarily replacing expensive components like engine protection modules, on a ship that could very well be heading for the bottom, doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not the Commander here and will refrain from further comment. As you were!

Good Luck

kolot
02-07-2010, 01:08 PM
Denrep, believe it or not, I agree. Many things to check before spending dollars. Did not expect of find a bad rotor off the bat. Like you say could be sinking ship. Will test many components before spending $'s. Can check stator for shorts, opens but can't check output until rotor resolved. Also some of the major players will have to be checked with unit running, producing power. Back to rotor again. This project is a spare time thing and I have to pull it down further, I do have at least 1 good rotor. Will get that going and move on with testing. Don't want to spend 600 on board for nothing, understood. Billy has found a service bulletin that applies and seems to be part of a solution. And may protect a replacement board from a similar fate as this must have been a common problem for Lincoln to do the upgrade FOC. Problem will be to find a "Friendly" service facility.
Also noted on my phone message this AM, LWS guy quoted me a price for the rotor but now called back as his service people said they had not seen a failed rotor on a commander. I believe it is open, but it might be a minor fix. Also I have never welded with a Commander, I would hate to go through all this trouble if they aren't all that good. The lure here was CV, and diesel power. How do you guys feel about the commanders performance. I will say it is overly huge and takes up a lot of room.

kolot
02-07-2010, 01:16 PM
Billy, I see where they will install the breaker kit, are you sure they will replace the board as well. Also 1 machine has the bad rotor, the other the engine will not run. Should I take them in this condition? How long will that recall be in effect for?

Billy
02-07-2010, 06:19 PM
Billy, I see where they will install the breaker kit, are you sure they will replace the board as well. Also 1 machine has the bad rotor, the other the engine will not run. Should I take them in this condition? How long will that recall be in effect for?

I have made some inquiries and If you ring Dan German of Lincoln Electric on 888-935-3877
I have not spoken to this guy myself, so you will need to have your code number and serial numbers to give him. Tell him that the Engine protection boards have failed on both machines and quote him the 2019A service notice, he will be able to look it up while talking to you. Now the notice was back in 2002.
So plead your case to him and that they failed some time back and you could not afford to fix them, then someone told you about the problems that the commanders were having.
They may or may not come to the party. Dan should be able to give you an answer straight away.

Failing this will have to continue doing all the tests in the info before spending your hard earned on them.

Billy
02-07-2010, 06:36 PM
First off, I don't want to take full credit for the expression, I just recently learned that one from Billy. Second, Kolot, I'm not abusing you. Also, I don't believe that I think you're a "doorknob" whatever that means. To be clear about it, I have no hard feelings with you or Billy or anyone else here.

Now back to the Commander and my final comment here. I'd like to just clarify what I was getting at, maybe it'll help some future troubleshooter, after this I'll leave it alone.

In review, at post #24 and #28 we thought we had a bad rotor, correct? In other words, if that's so, the Commander has been torpedoed and has taken a major hit, correct? A critical decision has to be made to either abandon ship or try to patch a major the hole. I don't recall reading specifics about the stator, that could be an unnoticed second hit. Then... at post #38 we're talking about buying a circuit board. It seems like the figure of $600 was mentioned somewhere.

No, I don't know the exact particulars of this machine, thus I used terms like "probably" and "somehow" as I thought out loud and proceeded with caution. However, I do understand brush-type AC generator function. I also am familiar with the typical "sourced component" manufacturing scenario. With that, I was willing to bet my rat's a$$ (thanks Billy) and say that Lincoln probably (there's the P word again :nono:) designed this machine with an engine protection module that was not mandatory for basic generator operation.

Testing a basic assembly by isolating and eliminating peripheral components is a valuable and workable troubleshooting method. With the limited information available here, I was betting that the welder's basic function could be tested without first buying expensive boards, such as the engine protection module. Yes, I could be wrong, in which case my rat would be short one a$$. But if I'm right, Kolot won't have to gamble with a $600.00 board experiment. Notice who has the most to gain from this?

The reason I was suggesting actual testing, -before spending- was to determine the welder's overall condition and the worthiness of further repair$. It's your machine and your money, do as you please. However, I will say that unnecessarily replacing expensive components like engine protection modules, on a ship that could very well be heading for the bottom, doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not the Commander here and will refrain from further comment. As you were!

Good Luck

Denrep

But if I'm right, Kolot won't have to gamble with a $600.00 board experiment. Notice who has the most to gain from this?

I am getting tired of this. But.... Denrep I advised Kolot to perform all tests first to ascertain exactly what has failed before spending dollars on the machines. Now it will be a long process to do this. He has all the required info to do this, ie resistances, voltages, methods, etc etc

Not sure if you mean that I have anything to gain by the $600, well I DO NOT.
Also I never said to just replace a board as an experiment.

jsfab
02-07-2010, 07:17 PM
Also I have never welded with a Commander, I would hate to go through all this trouble if they aren't all that good. The lure here was CV, and diesel power. How do you guys feel about the commanders performance. I will say it is overly huge and takes up a lot of room.


I have two Commander 500's, both CC and CV performance is excellent. I weld with stick and air-arc; also weld with both innershield and outershield/dual-shield wires on CV. At least as good arc quality as my Miller TB301, not quite as good as my Ranger 250, which is an 8-year newer machine.

jsfab
02-07-2010, 07:31 PM
Hey Kolot I found the info I was looking for.
If the idle control circuit fails it may take out the board being discussed.
The fix is installation of a circuit breaker kit. With a part number of
S25445 in all machines that qualify.

You will have to contact Lincoln, but in the first instance I would definitely contact a service guy first and let him push it through for you. That is what they are for. There are service guys and then there are service guys, try and find a "friendly" one.

The bulletin number is 2019A regarding the fix.

Now, I do not know how you will go with the rotor.

Just put them back together, no missing screws or bolts, or external damage.

Hang on I will see if I can paste in some of the details..........



S

Cheers
Billy

This upgrade was done to my 500's, it is essentially as described, the addition of a 12v DC circuit breaker.

Right now, one of the Commanders trips this breaker, anytime you switch the ignition on. Tracking it down, the over amperage goes to the idler soleniod. OR perhaps back to the board, haven't spent enough time on it yet. It will trip the circuit breaker, whether the idler switch is set to automatic or off. However, if I disconnect one of the four wires going to the idle solenoid (fast idle all the time), it runs and welds fine.

Question, Billy .... am I taking any risk in just using it like this?

I suppose what I really need to do, is isolate the solenoid on both machines, and compare ohmmeter readings ...

Billy
02-07-2010, 08:56 PM
This upgrade was done to my 500's, it is essentially as described, the addition of a 12v DC circuit breaker.

Right now, one of the Commanders trips this breaker, anytime you switch the ignition on. Tracking it down, the over amperage goes to the idler soleniod. OR perhaps back to the board, haven't spent enough time on it yet. It will trip the circuit breaker, whether the idler switch is set to automatic or off. However, if I disconnect one of the four wires going to the idle solenoid (fast idle all the time), it runs and welds fine.

Question, Billy .... am I taking any risk in just using it like this?

I suppose what I really need to do, is isolate the solenoid on both machines, and compare ohmmeter readings ...

Hi JS

Yes you will be taking a risk. Lets say that a breaker is 5 amps, now it will trip at 5amps or above, but it may be drawing 4.9 amps or whatever at other times so there will be a heat effect but not quite enough to trip the breaker at times.

OK so the breaker is designed by the various manufacturers to suit an overcurrent situation depending on the application.
I have seen this type of incident happen before, has taken out components without the breaker or fuse tripping.

Pull the connections and plugs and clean them up if necessary.
Check the solenoids for "free" movement
And yes check the coils resistance. It should be around 4.5 OHMs
You can also apply an external 12VDC to the solenoid to make sure it is moving freely. If you do this make sure the wires go back the right way. Polarity dependent.
Check the linkage.
It may be that it is binding on startup.

kolot
02-08-2010, 05:44 PM
OK, I did put a call into Lincoln but Dan was on vacation, I spoke to jeff in warranty and he said the breaker upgrade would be covered but the service notice does not mention or include the boards. Is there a way to get Lincoln to go for the boards? Also he told me that many Commander boards are no longer available, but the ones in question he has 2 in stock. I would think that a machine that was priced as these were only 11 years ago would still be supported through parts , but of course Lincoln said not are fault, the source Co. no longer produces them. Not the kind of stuff you want to hear.