"throwdown" thrown out?!

[turk]

who pulled the plug? what happened to no editing outcomes? and what was with the old thread link that was edited right before the thread was pulled? somthing smells fishy here, and it ain't my smoked red salmon dip.

[bert the welder]

Zap, any chance we can get an explanation in plain-speak? As much as the next Canadian, I like the hockey reference, but I haven't the foggiest cue what your saying???
Thanks
Bertinski

[sixturbosix]

I second that motion.I am in the dark on this one.

[duaneb55]

who pulled the plug? what happened to no editing outcomes? and what was with the old thread link that was edited right before the thread was pulled? somthing smells fishy here, and it ain't my smoked red salmon dip.

How'd that work out for ya?

[sixturbosix]

I feel like I have been watching Dallas and we have got to the part where "who shot J.R." and the network has pulled the plug.

[turk]

i am very particular about how i care for my fish from the moment i pull them out of the water to dish preparation. it doesn't come out all fishy, just good mild salmon flavor.

[lugweld]

I had..umm..better things to do this AM so I haven't a clue either. I haven't checked in since yesterday on the thread, so I am in the dark as well.
If I had to guess its one of three things.
1) Site management had serious issues with this
2) Someone, blew up a thread, or made threats against national security
3) There was some "legal" issue that could not be worked out

As for our side of things we made no contractural obligation other than a gentleman's request that the units be returned at our expense to us when all was said and done. That must have been one big pothole, since it appears that all the riders have flipped over the handle bars. :o

[duaneb55]

Frankly it was quite predictable from the start.

[turk]

i am disappointed, i was actually starting to consider a non "american" brand for my expected plasma cutter next year. too bad the show and tell fell apart.

[hvw]

Is the evaluation out or just some changes being made? I can't tell from Zapsters post. I assumed from reading it that the thread was getting too far afield and the mods were gonna clamp down.

[joedirt1966]

Patience.
In time there will be an explanation.
No biggie.

[turk]

how long do you think it will be before this thread gets deleted?

[Sandy]

This thread seems to be about a thread that was about another thread that was about an equipment evaluation that hasn't happened yet :laugh:..

In short, there ain't nuthin to talk about yet. ;)

[longevity-inc.com]

Unfortunately,
We are just as confused as the rest of you. We are ready! Seems that weldingweb is not however. We were very surprised to see that the thread was closed and are still trying to get more details on the matter. This "Throwdown" will take place one way or another. Hopefully, we can work out the details with weldingweb so that we can make it happen right away.

Thank you to all interested parties who support LONGEVITY. We will post up any information that we get on this matter.

[zapster]

how long do you think it will be before this thread gets deleted?

It won't..

Things are on hold..
It's really out of my hands now..

Think of it as free advertising gone bad...


I'll have to talk it over with the site Admins and Mods before anything can/will happen..


Myself..
Yeah I'D love the chance to beat this stuff up...
Wouldn't you?


...zap!

[ponch37300]

Maybe I"m missing something but I don't see what's wrong with someone giving a review of a welder? Don't see what this site would have against that. So if I were to give a review of my miller xmt the thread would have to be pulled because it would be free advertising for miller? If that's the case than this truely is a sad day where guys can't even share reviews of certain brands of machines on the internet. It would be nice if the higher powers of weldingweb would come out with some explanation as to what's going on.

[7A749]

Frankly it was quite predictable from the start.

You certainly aren't kidding there.

Even with the best of intentions, digging all this stuff up for another beating was just a bad idea from the start.

Regardless of any change of heart on either end of it (no matter how sincere it may be), there's just too many wounds that are going to get opened back up. Further, thread modification & deletion in connection with this for any reason just makes it look like the whole Welding Web Meltdown all over again. Granted, I was more a lurker then, but I did enough talking to enough people I highly respect (not to mention looking at a quite large amount of archived information) to become informed enough about it to form my own opinion regarding it.

Even those who aren't aware of the past history of this issue become immediately skeptical of true motive & intention when threads containing negative past history surrounding this same issue suddenly disappear with no explanation of why.

To further that, when ambiguous talk of "Big Changes" & other insinuative talk of being "penalized" under the guise of being a malcontent if found to be seemingly disagreeable with such a statement, leaves many to wonder exactly what the real purpose of this whole thing was to begin with or what the motives behind the person who said it really are as well..

Perception is 9/10ths of public opinion. The old adage of good intentions paving the road to hell is based on the principle of perception. That's why some guy that has even a harmless infatuation with the girl next door & likes to look at her will most likely end up in jail on stalking charges because of creating the perception of being one by hanging around all the time or being overly helpful, too often.

To him, it's harmless & may truly be the case.

To the general public & the girl, he's a dangerous nutcase, regardless of his true intentions. The manner in which certain things are presented to the general public, are generally key in the perception formed about them.

I never intended to start a flame war with my original comments regarding this whole "Throwdown" issue, I just feel that all things considered, it was going to do much more harm than good for anyone here across the board. Even more so in the manner of which it was to be conducted. Discretion is always the better part of valor.

IMHO of course.

[hvw]

Say it ain't so Joe.

[WHughes]

I could see the potential harm of providing a moderator with welding equipment. Especially as a welding forum which should remain unbiased. Making the the whole thing a 'sticky' probably didnt help either. Had any other qualified member been the recipient of test machines, I am sure there would be no issue.

[DesertRider33]

I don't understand. Zap agreed to do the testing and Longevity agreed to provide a machine. The agreement was between them. Really has nothing to do with Welding Web, except that a discussion of the event was going to happen on the forum. I don't understand why we are not allowed to hear the results and talk about it here on the forum. Maybe they should take their testing discussion to another welding forum where biased censors will not delete the topic?

[Rojodiablo]

I had..umm..better things to do this AM so I haven't a clue either. I haven't checked in since yesterday on the thread, so I am in the dark as well.
If I had to guess its one of three things.
1) Site management had serious issues with this
2) Someone, blew up a thread, or made threats against national security
3) There was some "legal" issue that could not be worked out

As for our side of things we made no contractural obligation other than a gentleman's request that the units be returned at our expense to us when all was said and done. That must have been one big pothole, since it appears that all the riders have flipped over the handle bars. :o
Let's say you are:1. HOT. 2. Cold. 3. Pretty warm, to the point of the frog wanting to hop out of the pot.:laugh:

Frankly it was quite predictable from the start.

Yes, and no. But really, we have gone through a lot trying to do these things, and dealing with the aftermath was very destructive to the site.

I am working hard with ZT and Zap to bring back the quality and volume of informational, tutorial posts that made this the #1 site dedicated to welding, from first timers to advanced weldors with exotic equipment.

It's easy to have a site for pros, by pros, and nothing but the most exotic and complicated works put up. There are no questions entertained by newbies, and it's a prettttty tough crowd to break into, with LOTS of heavy critique for all to go around.
We have a slightly different charge here; we are trying to have a site where we welcome weldors and fabricators who are both experienced, and those who are looking to up their game a couple notches.

I am not interested in digging up the worst of WW, anyone's behavior, shortcomings or misgivings. In 2 days' time, that is what started to happen to the throwdown thread, so we got together, and decided to shelve it, and when we feel we can do something that will be a benefit to the sit and the members, we will pursue it. Zap and ZT Paul came back because we WANT to have a better site. So do your part; post up interesting projects, teach people about your projects, and keep in contact with the mods so we can help make the site what you really want to see.

I have not had to suspend or ban anyone in a long time, and I would like to keep the streak alive and well for a long time.:waving:

[Rojodiablo]

how long do you think it will be before this thread gets deleted?

C'mon guys.That is NOT what the site is about. For those who know the past, you would KNOW that the mods were hamstrung, and defenseless to help the membership, or to even steer the site properly.

You know damn well we worked VERY HARD to clean the negativity up. I am no fan of thread-jacking, or destructive posting. Let's keep it that way guys.:waving:

[7A749]

C'mon guys.That is NOT what the site is about. For those who know the past, you would KNOW that the mods were hamstrung, and defenseless to help the membership, or to even steer the site properly.

You know damn well we worked VERY HARD to clean the negativity up. I am no fan of thread-jacking, or destructive posting. Let's keep it that way guys.:waving:

Yup.

The decision made was the best for the better of the site.

All the details can get sorted out.

That said,

See how that perception factor already influences people in general? (Referring to Turk's concern)

If it looks like someone with authority is singlehandedly slighting the game, doing irresponsible crap, most will believe it to be so as a general rule, regardless of the real situation or whether or not the site endorses their actions. I am NOT talking about shutting this stuff down either if you get me.

You guys did the right thing pulling the plug until it can be sorted. For those that weren't here when everything went to crap a couple years back, just roll with it & believe it when it's said this was a good decision.

Hope next week's better for you Paul. :) The kind of news you got this one sucked.

[lugweld]

I really haven't had much to say one way or the other. If it ever happens fine, if not, fine.
I think the orginal sentiment for the purpose of this thing happening was expressed best as something along the lines of "put up or shut up", a final way for all to kill one way or the other all the stuff going around about the products. No, it won't stop the rhetoric or change some of the minds. But it would clear up some misunderstandings to the people that are interested in the real results. I think the intent is a good idea for all concerned.But the best of intents can have wrong results. Its a risk for both site and companies involved...But at least the thread helped to clear up one misunderstanding about editing powers.

I know we already had another site testing some of our product, a site with some sort of following and respect of its own. Really, I did not see a reason to re hash everything here. But we were prompted to "throw in" on the "throw-down". I fully understand Rojo's reasoning and respect any thing that is resolved. We will still participate in any way that is requested. We have tried not to make a big show of things, or, as I said earlier, have not made any contract demands. We were content on a gentleman's agreement and a hands off approach. But, we have new marketing ideas and things that we are working toward. Opening up a can of worms here is not one of them.



So, I think the point is: What's the point? Will it change the predjudice dealt the imported stuff? No, if it performs well, then it could only anger people more. Don't ask me why and how, but when someones' beliefs are shattered, the first reaction is anger. If it fails, then there will be people crying foul on the other side...or making excuses,and only further divide the board. Again, that is not my or Everlast's intention for either to happen.

Turk,
We have distribution now in Alaska. Everlast Alaska has units. Yeah, I know its a big state. I am not sure how close you are to him, but it might be something that you can work out and find out for yourself.

[bert the welder]

I agree that it really sucks that some on here can't get pass the "ford vs chevy" attitude. It is one of the factors that makes any intelligent discussion impossible. Yes, I would have loved to see the results. Nothing better than a good shoot out. If I'm correctly reading into what's been said, this is on hold because those in charge don't want this thread blowing up into a flame war of heads butting over "long held 'beliefs' " about their country or that country. I can't blame them on one hand, who wants to baby sit a bunch of close minded knuckle heads. But on the other hand, robbing those that are genuinely interested in seeing a result, no matter which machine "works" better, isn't the right approach either.

This is why I'm on this sight. To learn. To see what others are doing. I have zero interest in welding specs for NASA, or what it takes to work in a nuclear power station. I like the artsy stuff and the "regular" world practical stuff. But this sight is for all welding applications. So if I'm not interested in a particular topic, I can skip it. Do I hate it when someone bellows on about the "quality" of a weld on a garden stake when the builder wasn't looking for advise on his welds, hell yeah. It's a garden stake!!!! Do I hate it when someone bellows on about the "quality" of a weld on a trailer hitch, hell no, that's appropriate. It can kill!!!
I like this site best out of all the ones I've looked into. I can see pictures. I can get advise from a great cross section of the welding profession. I can share ideas with others. The site is organized in a pretty good manner. The Mods generally do a good job, especially considering they are dealing with people, hidden behind the cloak of the web. I like that there are folks on here with great wit and humor. I like that we can use the "Smiles" to help clarify our intentions given the absents of the face to face element ( though I wish more would use them;) ). Sure there are things that drive me nuts. But that's just the way it is.
Give your opinion when warranted. Chime in when you can help. Offer words of encouragement when needed. And crack jokes to keep us alive.

If I had a wish list. A "How To" video section. Greater selection of "Smiles". A Mr. McBilly comic strip. Really high quality video of Mr. ZT Fab-ulous welding. Being able to say **** without typing $hit. A "This is my shop" video/picture section.
And most immediately, a new, 8 ton long ram jack, to replace the one on my shop crane, of no particular country of origin, that blew out just in time for my shop to finally be done and ready for me to move into except now I can't get my machines on and off the truck!!:angry::angry:
....oh and world peace, blah blah blah........:laugh:

[worntorn]

I can see why the site administrators would nix this idea. Awhile back, being new to the site I posted some simple comments about how well my Everlast welder was working for me. This was enough to bring forth all kinds of poison and including a personal attack from one longtime member.

The administrators are correct, this type of test had little hope of turning into anything positive for the site and every chance of causing even more bad feeling.

It is really silly that it works this way but reality dictates.

[denrep]

Too much attention-drawing hype and hoopla: contracts, slap-downs, comparisons, permissible comparisons, forbidden comparisons...

Should have just shipped the welder(s) out on a low-key gentleman's agreement, and then over time the tester(s) could have posted the results of their business-as-usual welding.

It still could be done - Through an anonymous third party, distributor ships Zap (or whoever) a random pulled-from-stock welder. On the honor system, payment is either refunded or deferred. Then in the usual course of posting projects, the machine's capabilities can be demonstrated and reported.

Good Luck

[FusionKing]

I personally haven't heard of any comparison for this test but maybe I missed something.
I thought it was simply to see if the machine that would be sent to ZAP would be able to do the work, and would hold up. Hopefully it would lay down better welds as well.
As far as comparing goes I see none. I am relatively certain that a 350 Dynasty would handle the job his present machine is doing and then some.
How a Longevity machine would weld against a Dynasty would be a comparison.
I wonder how many people who are worried about the welder's country of origin drive a foreign car every day.
I hope me simply saying these things are not offending anyone here because that is not my intent at all. I am sure all that has been said before.
All I wanna see is if Zap and ZT can lay down their normal work without trashing the units they have. If we can't handle seeing that then this site is as good as dead anyhow.
Besides....having someone who likes old school American products using a import machine means this thread should have something for everybody.
So I say let's make peace and melt metal.

[turk]

something i take away from this whole thing for myself is that i want to be more active and helpful in the forum. i think i am going to do an evaluation on my 211, and start doing write ups on my little fun projects i do.

[-olllllllo-]

well i for one like to see any reviews of any machines at all. that's the beauty of the internet, to research and learn before buying is still a relatively new power that has been thrust upon us human beings.

how many ummm "older" guys just bit the bullet and bought their first welder without any prior knowledge of it? i would say alot.

i happily can say that my new everlast unit works like a charm. still use my lincoln too. as many here, have alot of machines in their signatures, i see. i'm sure they use them all at some point or other, whether it be the top of the line model or the lowest on the pole, it gets used.

censorship of this magnitude is a shame. i've heard people tell noobs on many different sites to get a thicker skin. usually the members who have been around awhile are the ones saying it. it looks to be that it should be reversed in this case, seeing as how things get cut up to keep from hurting the older members feelings. :p

just a shame. product knowledge will never hurt anyone, but merely educate those that wish to learn.

[Matt_Maguire]

well i for one like to see any reviews of any machines at all. that's the beauty of the internet, to research and learn before buying is still a relatively new power that has been thrust upon us human beings.
(snip)
censorship of this magnitude is a shame. i've heard people tell noobs on many different sites to get a thicker skin. usually the members who have been around awhile are the ones saying it. it looks to be that it should be reversed in this case, seeing as how things get cut up to keep from hurting the older members feelings. :p

just a shame. product knowledge will never hurt anyone, but merely educate those that wish to learn.

Hi -olllllllo-,

I wouldn't call it censorship, It kinda had the look of two manufacturers comparing product lines on a third party website which is not specifically meant for that purpose. I really don't think any of the parties involved with the concept thought the idea would be viewed that way, but I suspect it did. I sure hope to see some "I did that with this machine" in projects later...

WW is a place for knowledge sharing and hopefully social, so any mention (by anyone) of a specific machine doing a specific job would be well within any boundary IMO. Comparisons can be somewhat made by using the search function and hearing of users experience with any machine model.

The post above yours is a perfect example i.e.; use the Millermatic 211, post the work and talk about the machine if you want by model and make. This could help others with the "which brand should I buy" questions that are posted so often. I've never known anyone to buy something without having something in mind first (machine make and type).

Responders to a "which brand" question could reply with "whatcha got in mind", and "try Millermatic 211 in the search box, see ya later"... So post up some Everlast welds! :blob1:

Matt

[Ed.]

I also am very dissapointed in the way this has eventuated, I would have liked to know the actual reasons that this idea was pulled. I haven't been on this forum long but I would like to have that info given, uncensored without some admin or moderator restricting this info because it may stir or upset someone up. From what I can gather, I suspect that a few people would get upset about the old "Made in USA vs Made in China" debate. I for one, couldn't care less about where it's made. So long as the welder lives up to what it was designed for and put through it's paces in an unbiased way I would like that info. If this evaluation was pulled because of a conflict of interest between the moderators and the companies or something similar, then organise someone else to do the evaluation, but keep us informed as to the actual reason. We are not kids here, "well most of us aren't" and we can make up our own minds, so stop treating the members like we were. You are not our parents!! That is what a forum is about, good, bad or ugly!

If a Chinese designed unit can keep pace with an comparable spec'ed American made unit for the third of the price, then great I would like to hear about the progress. If it dies in the arse after two weeks, then I also want to hear all about it.

If the welder is put through it's paces on a "like to like" basis, and by that, I mean comparing the amp, duty cycle and suitabilty of the two welding units in question with the tasks to be done on it then I would like to see the results for myself.

Just for the record, I have been wanting a TIG welder for a while and was debating whether I should get a used Miller Dynasty 350 with no warranty for about $4000 or a new Everlast 256 for half the price, a 5 year warranty plus a plasma cutter built in. For the amount and type of welding I do, I decided to put my name down for and ordered the Everlast unit. Whilst the Dynasty may be a very heavy duty 3 phase TIG welder which should cope with just about anything thrown at it, for my needs at this time, the smaller Everlast unit should suffice.

For those who get upset at someone buying a Chinese made imported unit and wish to flame me, then I suggest the following: Get over it and keep it to yourself, I do not care. I made the decision and I will live with it.
I have seen better support from the Everlast people extended to their customers and even to quite a few that weren't their customers which is above and beyond what they needed to do, but they did it anyway. I have tried "Miller" support of their own machines and found it very sadly lacking, so I hope Everlast keep up the good work.

But to summarise I do not like being kept in the dark for what ever the reason. Now if this thread of mine upsets someone and if they remove it because it might offend someone, then great, just also don't forget to remove me from the membership as well. :realmad:

[lugweld]

Ed,

Everlast Australia is set to go in a few weeks. You might want to keep a watch out for us there.

[Ed.]

Ed,

Everlast Australia is set to go in a few weeks. You might want to keep a watch out for us there.

I already have, that's who I placed my order with.

Ed.

[Broccoli1]

I'll bet a dollar thee ol' contract that they posted up was a problemo since it had "WeldingWeb" in the contract- and a nudder dollar no one got the OK from WeldingWeb to do so.
:alien:

[zapster]

I'll bet a dollar thee ol' contract that they posted up was a problemo since it had "WeldingWeb" in the contract- and a nudder dollar no one got the OK from WeldingWeb to do so.
:alien:

Nope that is incorrect..
Only the Mods here know why as to this point.

And that's all that I'M at liberty to say.

Let's NOT make this a guessing game..
The game is over for the time being.

Thank you and have a good day.

...zap!

[ZTFab]

Nope that is incorrect..
Only the Mods here know why as to this point.

And that's all that I'M at liberty to say.

Let's NOT make this a guessing game..
The game is over for the time being.

Thank you and have a good day.

...zap!

Way to go zap....

I really could've used that 4 bucks. :D

[zapster]

Way to go zap....

I really could've used that 4 bucks. :D

No worries

I'll Mail it to ya..:drinkup:

...zap!