PDA

View Full Version : How many amps will I draw?



SUBLIME
02-10-2004, 09:58 AM
I'm looking real hard at the new Lincoln Tig 185. I plan on almost exclusively welding alumininum round tube (up to .125" MAX.) What size breaker should I plan on using for this application? I will be tying into my house service. Will a 50 amp be enough?

Thanks

JMcKeone
02-10-2004, 12:55 PM
I just ordered this welder yesterday, I already ran the line with a 60amp double pole breaker. It is only supposed to draw 50-60amps, if it blows, ill step up to a 70amp breaker. I have run my 60amp stick welder off of this circuit with no problems. Im also using 6ga wire for the line.

Jim

Franz
02-10-2004, 01:03 PM
According to Lincoln, 64 to 70 amps input for full current.
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e336.pdf

SUBLIME
02-10-2004, 01:12 PM
I just looked at their webiste and it says the machine is supplied with a 50 amp plug and receptacle?

JMcKeone
02-10-2004, 01:25 PM
Yea it comes with a NEMA 6-50 plug. I havnt seen anything larger then a 50amp outlet as well, thats all im using.

Franz
02-10-2004, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by SUBLIME
I just looked at their webiste and it says the machine is supplied with a 50 amp plug and receptacle?

That's pretty much normal for the industry.
Remember, the machine will draw input power in direct relationship to the welding power you are using, and chances are most people will never peak the machine out, so reaching 70 amps of input power would rarely happen.

Plug ratings are more a factor of the circuit interrupting capacity of the plug than they are an indication of the current carrying capacity of the plug, so running 70 amps thru a 50 amp plug isn't really a problem, until some zealot electrical inspector sees the situation. There are doubtless thousands of machines in use every day that draw more than the plug design rating.

SUBLIME
02-10-2004, 02:56 PM
Who did you order from and what kind of delivery time are they telling you.

Thanks

JMcKeone
02-10-2004, 03:01 PM
I ordered mine from weldingsupply.com. It is going to ship directly from Lincoln. They didnt give me an exact ETA yet, but they said there is a chance I could have it by the weekend. I talked to Lincoln and they said the first production run was this week.

echo8287
02-11-2004, 01:30 AM
You didn't mention what size wire you ran. I guess you know you can't just slap a 70 or 80 amp breaker on too small a wire. Just checking you out. David

SUBLIME
02-11-2004, 09:28 AM
Actually I haven't run my wire yet. I'll probably go with 6? Also I'm debating on whether to change out my breaker box or not while I'm at it. I've got an old Federal Pacific box that are getting harder and harder to find breakers for locally.

Franz
02-11-2004, 12:12 PM
GET RID of the Federal box YESTERDAY! Those things are a fire waiting to happen under the best of circumstances.
Parts are no longer available cause Federals have been decertified, recalled and sued out of existance.
Federal breakers rarely trip, even with a direct short.

fla jim
02-11-2004, 12:16 PM
I agree. Get Square D "QO"

JMB
02-11-2004, 12:26 PM
Yup, Square D is the way to go.
Square D will cost about twice as much as GE, but is a much safer box/breaker. If I remember correctly,(someone correct me if I'm wrong) Square D trips on current and GE trips on heat. Square D seems to trip faster than GE.

rusted
02-17-2004, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by JMB
Yup, Square D is the way to go.
Square D will cost about twice as much as GE, but is a much safer box/breaker. If I remember correctly,(someone correct me if I'm wrong) Square D trips on current and GE trips on heat. Square D seems to trip faster than GE.

That is interesting, as SquareD in my area is CHEAPER than GE. I've found ALL GE products to be very expensive, including stove fixtures, for heck's sake.

For example, I'm re-wiring my house. I can get a GE 30 position load center, w/2 - 30 amp double breakers, and 12 20amp single breakers for $125.

The SquareD w/ 1 - 30 amp double, 1 - 50 amp double, and 20 - 20 amp singles runs $109.

Both have a 200amp main breaker.

Therefore, I'm happy to reply, I'm getting the Square D.

rusted
02-17-2004, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by SUBLIME
I'm looking real hard at the new Lincoln Tig 185. I plan on almost exclusively welding alumininum round tube (up to .125" MAX.) What size breaker should I plan on using for this application? I will be tying into my house service. Will a 50 amp be enough?

Thanks

May I ask:

What accessories did you get to get you up and running, i.e. complete package.

And how much did it all cost you?

fla jim
02-17-2004, 06:38 AM
Rusted;
Be careful what you buy. Square D has two lines, "Home line", and "QO". The QO line is a lot better grade of equipment.

SUBLIME
02-17-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by rusted
May I ask:

What accessories did you get to get you up and running, i.e. complete package.

And how much did it all cost you?

Actually, I haven't ordered my machine just yet. I need to get my power situation ironed out. I'm thinking about getting one of those Cherokee "hands free" welding helmets. Then I'll need a bottle of Argon, some tungsten, filler wire and a few other odds and ends and I'll be ready to go. I am planning on working with anodized aluminum tubing and I plan on buying a tubing bender at some point. First though I have to figure out how to weld aluminum tubing :D I'm thinking weldinsupply.com has about the best deal on the Lincoln Tig 185. $1,514 with the cart option.

JMB
02-17-2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by rusted
That is interesting, as SquareD in my area is CHEAPER than GE. I've found ALL GE products to be very expensive, including stove fixtures, for heck's sake.

For example, I'm re-wiring my house. I can get a GE 30 position load center, w/2 - 30 amp double breakers, and 12 20amp single breakers for $125.

The SquareD w/ 1 - 30 amp double, 1 - 50 amp double, and 20 - 20 amp singles runs $109.

Both have a 200amp main breaker.

Therefore, I'm happy to reply, I'm getting the Square D.
Square D makes two models. One that competes with GE in price, called the home model I believe, and one that is the "pro"(don't know the name). The latter one is quite a bit more expensive and much better than either the GE or cheaper SqD.

rusted
02-17-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by fla jim
Rusted;
Be careful what you buy. Square D has two lines, "Home line", and "QO". The QO line is a lot better grade of equipment.

Ah hah! I will definitely make a note that.

Thank you!

MtnWelder
02-18-2004, 04:08 AM
Rusted:

SquareD makes two levels of boxes and breakers - on cheeper than the other - apples to oranges?

QO vers Homelite?

rusted
02-18-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by MtnWelder
Rusted:

SquareD makes two levels of boxes and breakers - on cheeper than the other - apples to oranges?

QO vers Homelite?

From this thread, I went and checked. It is indeed the SD Homelite not the QO.

Sberry
02-23-2004, 02:52 PM
SQ D Homeline works well too. They have to pass the same UL test as QO. QO has a visi trip indicater which is nice for old farts,,, hahahahaha I use QO just because its what I started with. Any of these is going to be better than the Fed you are replacing. I too say out with the Fed and trashed the last one I had a couple yrs ago,, good riddens. The 185 will run fine from the number 6 wire. What is the duty cycle rating of the machine? Anything less than 100% and you can put the 70 on a number 6. ART 630 NEC has a derating chart for duty cycles. The OM of the machine will list max breaker and min wire, up the wire size at LEAST one size from the min.

Sberry
02-23-2004, 03:12 PM
This one is for David,,, Echo. When I built new I installed new service nearest most of the large loads to reduce some wiring and V drop. 2-200 parrelled from 400A meter base. The big thing about the upgrade,, which to me is often more,,, well,, important than the ampacity of the panel is that it forced the poco to upgrade the incoming wire. When I do one on my own upgrades I get with the poco engineer BEFORE hand and get an agreement about what tie wire size will be. My neighbor thought I was just blowing smoke and it went in one ear and out the other and his thought was,, they know what they are doing,, ha. Well they do,, and if they can they provide the least wire they can get away with. He gets a quite a bit of bounce in the lights when motor loads come on,,, some of which I am sure is in the sizing of the kettle, but 150 or 200 ft of wire coming in that looks like it should feed 100A doesnt help. Especially with rural I get to see serv upgrades to 100 that the poco doesnt even change the wire. A 200 would have forced them to replace and bring on bigger wire,, all at their expence. I dont rember all the details but my incoming is bigger than your thumb, larger than 4/0 I know, and even under light loads and starts it really helps.

SUBLIME
02-23-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Sberry
SQ D Homeline works well too. They have to pass the same UL test as QO. QO has a visi trip indicater which is nice for old farts,,, hahahahaha I use QO just because its what I started with. Any of these is going to be better than the Fed you are replacing. I too say out with the Fed and trashed the last one I had a couple yrs ago,, good riddens. The 185 will run fine from the number 6 wire. What is the duty cycle rating of the machine? Anything less than 100% and you can put the 70 on a number 6. ART 630 NEC has a derating chart for duty cycles. The OM of the machine will list max breaker and min wire, up the wire size at LEAST one size from the min.

Duty rating is as follows

Current / voltage / %

185/27/15%
90/24/100%

Can I get by with 8ga?

Sberry
02-23-2004, 04:26 PM
Yes, you can use number 12 if you want. Technically you only need a wire big enough to supply the current it draws at (or near) 90 amps. But,, is this a good idea? No and Terry and David have elaborated extensively on this subject and I am going to throw my 02 in again just to help understanding of the way these machines are wired. The min rates are designed to be allowable where the circuit is designed and maintained by the electrician. When wired to thes minimums it is a welder circuit intended for use with the machine the circuit it is designed for. Its not a general purpose circuit. It has a plug and recept and the next owner or operator may come along and think its a 50 A circuit and pluggs the wifes pottery kiln into it which needs a circuit that feeds this heavy draw device 100% of the time for long periods where your welder is limited to full power only 15% of the time. I think using small wire also can add insult to injury as far as voltage drop is concerned. This is especially true where incoming power systems is marginal. Here is the way I would wire for welding machines in home or small shop. I would run number 8 to a 6-50-R recept and protect it with a 50A breaker,, unless like some smaller models such as 175 restrict it to a 20, you could drop it to 30 for the mm210. The mm251 will run on this circuit. If by some strange circumstance your machine should kick this breaker you could then change it out to the next higher or up to the highest allowable according to the owners manual. P.S. I would always read the OM for the power requirements before plugging one in. I have seen some strange stuff with Lincoln from my own machines. My sp130t calls for 8/40 and its draw is 20 max. My 255 calls for 10/60. Needless to say,, duh, the 130 got 10/30 and the 255 has 8/50. The 130 comes with 12 cord and the 255 a number 8

Sberry
02-23-2004, 06:58 PM
And lets remember where we put the ground wire??? This is a grounded 2 wire circuit. Be carefull of this when feeding from subfed panels. Always make sure if the sub is fed 3 wire the bond is installed and if it is fed 4 wire or grounded with conduit that the net and equipment grounding are seperate. Think of the minimum wire size like tapping your state troopers 18 yr old daughter. It might be entirely legal but it might not be a good idea even if she was the one who thought of it. Trust me on that one.

Franz
02-23-2004, 09:00 PM
S, most of us Old Farts are smart enough to know when the breaker is tripped, even without the cute little red flag.
It's all them damn young pisspot strawberry pickers who need a red flag to know when the breaker is tripped.
I seriously doubt the guts of a Square D homeline breaker are the same as a QO breaker.

Sberry
02-24-2004, 03:53 AM
They have to pass UL 429 or something like that. It was a question of mine at one time also and I went to an engineering forum similar to this and ask about the difference. I wouldnt mind if Terry or someone could explain in laymans terms about short circuit interuption thresholds sometime. These guys send me to some site to "research" ha,, I dont need to know how to invent the dam thing,,,, just want to understand a little as to what the ratings mean.

rusted
02-24-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Franz
S, most of us Old Farts are smart enough to know when the breaker is tripped, even without the cute little red flag.
It's all them damn young pisspot strawberry pickers who need a red flag to know when the breaker is tripped.
I seriously doubt the guts of a Square D homeline breaker are the same as a QO breaker.

Ahhhh so you don't actually know, yet you've given me definitive advice about those products? Hmmmm where have I heard unfounded advice like that before.? Could it be...... THE INTERNET? :p

Just keeping our standards up here. ;) You should have specificed that it was YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, not based on your apparent years of knowledge on the subject, of which apparently, you have none.

I talked to more than a few electricians in my area. Since many of them shied from the Homeline series for years, but given their performance have since switched to that name plating, that's the course I decided upon. Years and years of installs are a good test bed IMO. Glad I took that known quantity over internet advice..... again. :p

Franz
02-24-2004, 02:14 PM
"Just keeping our standards up here. You should have specificed that it was YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, not based on your apparent years of knowledge on the subject, of which apparently, you have none."
You're absolutely correct, I have NEVER installed a Homeline panel or wiring device, and I never will. That line was developed for exactly one reason, to have a cheap product that would barely meet UL requirements so the Square D name could be whored, for market share.
I've also never bought a Yugo or Froggy Mack, cause I didn't need to buy one to recognize it as the piece of sh!t it was.
I'm sure your local electricians know more than I do, most people do!

Sberry
02-25-2004, 02:16 AM
I try to tell my local lumberyard to dump the CH BR stuff they carry. SQ D has done just what they should have done as a business move. It was brilliant and if I was in a similar biz of that size I would go looking for the marketers that developed the Homeline. Its a good second product with a semi seperate name that competes with itself and competes where they were getting beat up before. They absolutely smashed Challenger in the modular home market. They brought the SQ D line to Home Depot and Lowes with that and it helps sell the QO line too. They killed Siemans and GE there in that market. They studied military warfare strategy and applied it well.

rain252
02-12-2005, 04:25 PM
to Sberry........... I know I am replying to a year old post, but I was reading this thread and am puzzled. You had said...."I would run number 8 to a 6-50-R recept and protect it with a 50A breaker."

Since the guy's Lincoln Tig 185 is rated to draw input of 64 amps (at 230v) when it is putting out its max output of 185 welding amps at a duty cycle of 15%, I don't understand why you say a #8 wire? I understand a 50-amp receptacle is all that is readily available for us home welders and he should be fine with his welder as he won't continuously pull 64 amps, and I agree with all you said before about this not being a continuous use 64-amp draw so he can undersize it a little, bus isn't #8 wire rated for 40amps? So if he makes a #8 circuit for his welder and puts a 50-amp recpetacle on the end of it...........doesn't he now have a 40 AMP FUSIBLE LINK? Why would you EVER want to have a conductor protected by a breaker that is oversized for that conductor?? Wouldn't he want to run at least #6 wire for his 50-amp receptacle? Or even better, maybe he should run #4 wire so the wires will never be the weak link? I guess assuming you could land #4 wire on the 50-amp recep. I don't know, I am not an electrician.

Sberry
02-16-2005, 01:00 AM
Article 630 NEC is where the details of sizing these circuits come from. If this breaker is recommended above 60A it would call for a number 8 wire due to short circuit interuption requirements. This machine would run on number 10 as long as it was limited to a 60A breaker. No, it wont become a fusable link, the wire wont burn out. This machine has a 15% duty cycle at wide open. The wire must be rated for the amount of load for a given time. The number 8 wire would allow for enough current and the machine would overheat and burn up before the wire would overheat. The breaker is sized for max loads and more importantly for short circuit interuption, a short would draw hundreds of amps (possibly thousands in some circumstances) for split second and trip the breaker without overheating the wire. There are some legitimate reasons for using 6 wire on 50A circuits, mainly so the next guy that comes along and hooks a piece of equipment to this circuit (without verifying the wire size) such as a pottery kiln that needs to be rated continiously, it is a welder circuit not a general use circuit, its tailored to the particular machine. My explanation may lack but thats some of the basics, there are some machines that allow 10 wire on up to 60 breakers. Many allow 8 wire up to 100A.

julmer
02-23-2005, 02:53 AM
I suspect we are dealing with a residential installation so the sections of the NEC dealing with motor starting loads and welder circuit protection would not be considered. The AHJ will expect to see a breaker sized to protect the conductors acording to the standard ampacity tables. Since it is simply plug and socket connected, a continuous 45 amp load could easily be plugged into the circuit.
FWIW, I have my old 300 amp Miller running of a standard 50 amp, 240 volt circuit. I can get away with very high welding currents for short periods of time. I never had a bit of trouble running steady at about 200 amps. I've even had my Thermaldyne inverter plugged in there and run short beads at 350+ amps. My suggestion is #6 and 50 amp breaker. That should keep the AHJ and the insurance people happy.

DonS
02-25-2005, 11:33 PM
I just strung the wire for my welder the other day. #4 and a 70A breaker. The wire is a little undersized for the welder as far I've been able to find out. Nameplate reads over 100 amps at 230V. It's an old Linde 250Hf. The only manual I have found is for a Linde 250 AC/DC which looks like a sister to it with a couple different controls. That manual says a #2 wire. I don't feel comfortable running any more than 70A through the plug. If I ever tackle something that pops the breaker, I will direct wire to the panel with a #2.

Don