A visit from OSHA

[Kim at WDF]

Has anyone ever received a visit from OSHA? What was the experience like? What was the outcome?

[smithboy]

When I was in highschool and working at a local plastics company, we had a visit. I don't know how representative the visit was, though.

We had a couple of folks from OSHA walk through our plant with a clipboard making notes. We all had to put on some safety appearel for the visit that we normally didn't wear. They spent a lot of time at our bulitin board looking at postings also (I don't know what for). We had several infractions, but most were things like broken or missing guards on machinery or lack of an eyewash station in chemical areas, missing signs and stuff. They gave our shift supervisor a list of things to fix and they came back to do a quick walk-through a month or so later after they were fixed. The plant owner was nervous as a cat, but the OSHA folks seemed focused on the big stuff and didn't sweat the picky stuff too much...The thing I remember the most was that our shift manager said "yes sir" to everything.

They spent some time in the front office before the plant inspection, but I have no idea what went on there, maybe checking paperwork or something. The reason I remember any of this is that I was a lot younger than most of the other plant workers (like I said, I was a highschooler), so my job for their visit was to walk around with them and be their helper-gofer.

[DDA52]

Had one on base one time. It was a complete joke and waste of time. They were so **** bent on finding little things that they wasted the whole day for us checking labels on screwguns and saws.:realmad: There were big violations to be found, but they were intent on checking all the labels. I loved it when they started passing out fines at 350 bucks a pop for illegible tool labels....to guys that don't even make that a week.:angry:

[TxRedneck]

What kind of base were you on Don? Military? You were military? Yeah I was working with the pipe union here in Dallas. They were telling me not long ago, 10-15 yrs ago, when OSHA showed up to the job site the Ironworkers would all pick up their tools and go home. There was usually some form of warning they were coming so before osha would arrive the ironworkers would lock up their stuff and leave. They knew they wouldnt stand a chance so they were gone. At the time of hearing that made me laugh. But now its actually more of a scarey thing. Both on the part of lost wages and you wonder how dangerous there work really is lol

[DDA52]

Nope, civilian contractor working on Lackland AFB building a new language school. San Antonio was known as Military City USA because of all the bases. Used to do quite a bit of work on base....all but two I believe.....maybe three. There were eight or nine...we've lost a few lately, the biggest being Kelly AFB. It was turned into a big industrial complex where my steel supplier relocated. Kinda strange driving by the old gates and not being stopped.

FWIW, we used to drag up when we heard OSHA was on the way. Wasn't worth the risk of fines. We just packed up and went to another job for a few days until the coast was clear.:D

[TxRedneck]

Oh yes Lackland and Kelly, I do recall. Dad was at lackland '88 for basic, and my brother was there in '02 for the same, and '03 for tech school.

Oh well thats good you dint loose time over the issue. Nobody really made it all clear. Thanks for the input Don

[stumpster]

Around here they like to make sure all your cords have the grounds on them and no tape anywhere. They make sure you have all your data sheets on the chemicals you have, the eye wash is a big one(first aid station), everyone has steel toe boots, hard hats if applicable, harnesses, stuff like that. When I was doing log work we used to get sent home when they would come also!

When I was 18 I was working in Cleveland on a gov job and had a set of temp steps fall out from under me, I fell 15 feet after hitting my head on the level I was walking up to. That of course brought OSHA and my boss got fined a total of 38,000 dollars(give or take). When I got back to work 3 months later he took it out on me like it was my fault, first day back I swung a sledge staking railroad ties together with him standing over me from 6am to 4pm with no brake but the quick drink of water. This carried on for about 2 weeks before he let up, I should have sued his A** off(could have) but my dad raised me different then that. I pay for that fall every day though.

[TxRedneck]

Stump,
I had a bad run with my now former employer after I got hurt. They treated me like it was my fault and really gave me the rough end over it. Real shame if you ask me

[smithboy]

I wonder if the inspections/treatment of folks is location- or industry-specific...I worked at that job I was talking about above for almost 3 years, but only saw OSHA once do a full inspection. They showed up when someone got really hurt (maybe a couple of more times over that period), but otherwise...nada. We were always warned not to do this or that because of SURPRISE OSHA INSPECTIONS, but I never saw one.

[TxRedneck]

Its been said many times, osha just dont have the man power to go around checking on companies. They rely on complaints and serious injuries. More so complaints though. I guess there are serious enough injuries, however, when I worked for the pipe union a man fell from a height of 4 feet at his feet 6 feet tall and 10 feet at his head. He was hanging duct and hit his head when he fell. Not sure why he fell, siezure someone said. Last I heard he was in a coma, never woke up since the fall, minimal brain function. Never saw osha though. Guess it depends on the conditions of the accident I don tknow

[TxRedneck]

I wish Pile buck was here he could prolly give us a lot more info on osha and job site accidents. Pile driving a dangerous job. Not for the faint at heart

[stumpster]

Ya TXRedneck its a shame that people have lost the concept that employees
are actual ppl and not dollar signs. That was the first time I was treated like a dollar sign and not an individual and its happened since. Then I had no choice(newly married, new house, daughter on the way exc..) Now I would tell someone to go take a flying **** . Ya right, 2 years ago I made a cut with a chain saw as a sub no one else would do(bad choice) I don't know if it was the way I was raised (stories of grandad in the coal mines, or painting 150' steel mill stacks on a wooden seat) or just a lack of good old common sense. I still hear my dads voice in the back of my head saying excuses are for lazy ppl, do what it takes "like a man" . Oh well I've made it to 33, one way or another I will learn, hopefully soon:)

I know here OSHA usually only shows up if there is an incident!(tourist town cause for more attention)

[standles]

At my base the tool police as they are called come around every so often. One year several of the branches had a generic tool box with screwdrivers,hammer etc. in them. We were written up for having unauthorized tools (only union folks were allowed to work with hand tools), the required tools we had were not identified with a barcode for tracking etc. etc.

Next visit that came up all the tools were gather up and stored in the classified vault. We have never had a problem with tool inspections again :)

[DDA52]

Standles, I love your sig line.:D :D :D

[TxRedneck]

His sig line is good
Military ideas of how tools should be handled is sometimes some what of a real joke. Ive seen similar things. Course Ive also seen some real lax stuff. Folks Ive known who did both worlds civi and mil on base said many times the base dictates the culture, not the contractor and you will find certain idosyncrocies.
Oh well and life goes on

[DDA52]

The base never dictated squat to me and my tools. Good thing too. I would not have stood for that crap.:gunsfirin Some of that union crap burns me up. Probably one of the many reasons I will never be union.:dizzy:



:drinkup:

[spuddown]

Osha doesn't come around here very often. About once a year. We try to lay pretty low, last time they were in town they fined a contractor for having a can of Lysol in their bathroom but no MSDS sheet for it. In my opinion thats a little overboard. A few years ago I was operating a crane on a job and was putting it to bed for the night. I raised the headache ball up beside the block and shut down. An OSHA inspector came running over and said he just saw me 2 block it. I told him BS I'm 10' from the tip. He asked what the bang was then, the ball bumped the block when it came alongside was all it was. I think he embarassed himself alittle because he just said oh and walked away. Another time we were out the chain building a dock for a private company when OSHA came to town to inspect a cannery that was running. They only get 2 flights a day at this place one in the morning and one in the evening so we knew he would be flying out that night. When he got done with the cannery they called and told the company we were working for that he was on his way to see us. We went out on the dock which was getting out about 400'. He asked the owner of the dock if he could come out to talk to us and he refused to let him on his dock. We just stayed out there working until his plane went flying by us. The dock was right off the end of the runway. When we came back in the owner said the only thing he found wrong was our electric cord to our dryshack had a problem and he already had a new one plugged in. OSHA has done a lot of good but seem to spend to much time on the little things that don't matter that much. Another time I was operating an excavator on a pipe job when my tailgunner had to go get a load of pipe. We were getting close to another pipe crossing so I was going easy, I thought I was about there so I got out of the machine and got in the trench to hand shovel alittle so I didn't hit the other pipe, I heard someone callout. It was an Osha inspector, I was in the trench without a hardhat. She told me If she caught me in the trench again she would have to fine me and the co. I was working for. Then she wrote the co. up because a little side window had a crack in it. They seem to all have their little pet peeves. I always try to get along with them.

[Diverbill45]

Having worked construction most of my life, and having to deal with OSHA inspections a few times, I'll sum it up like this. OSHA is just like the IRS. If you call the IRS ten times and ask the same question to 10 different agents, you'll get 10 different answers. If you send 10 OSHA people through a plant or job site, you'll get different violations and none of them will ever be for the same thing, and more than likely they all will miss a big violation that is in plain site. OSHA mostly, is nothing but a bunch of people that don't know as much as they think they know, about their job, that are H**L bent on showing everybody how much power they have and will nit pick the working man in order to relieve him of any much money as possible. Mostly it's a quota system at its best.:angry:

I'll admit, there are times where OSHA does hit companies and individuals on major things that are unsafe to other workers, but more times than none, they are just trying to increase the amount of money flowing into the government coffers. It's just like the workman's comp program. Get REALLY hurt one time and you'll find out just how hard, an agency that's suppose to help the injured working man, can make your life. I myself, have never had to deal with it, but a few of my friends in construction, have been injured and it's no walk in the park. They sure want to take the money out of your paycheck, but when it comes time to pay up, they have a endless amount of hoops, loopholes, rules and regulations that you have to navigate, and in the end, more than likely, you still might get rejected. Just another one of the monsters that government has created that the working man has to deal with and pay for.:realmad:

Sorry for the rant, but it's just something that has been observed over the years.:(

[TxRedneck]

Bill, its never a rant coming from you. If it ever becomes, your experience and the lessons you bring to the table will make up for it. I totally agree with you. We both share a common friend who dealt with the workers comp and I agree its a very frustrating experience. My own personal experience was difficult with the company. The insurance company was very helpful. Not sure the circumstances behind it. But will say they were pleasant to deal with. My employer, however, really wanted to stick it to me. They felt that since I dint throw them under the bus I must not have a case against them and so they should throw me under the bus. I felt that wasnt quite true, but what you gonna do. In the end, I am through with them and fine with that decision.
By the way, its good to see ya around here Bill:waving:

[spuddown]

Most OSHA regs are written to vague and open to interpetation, thats a dangerous thing. They are written in there favor because anytime there's an accident if there's no rule they can go back and hit you with the general duty clause. Workers comp. is a whole other subject. They have had so many scumbags that try to rip them off they automatically think everyone is. Sad its like that, but it is. Makes it hard on people that actually get hurt. However they cost themselve's thousands of dollars too. A few years ago we were working on a Navy pier and one of my guys got his knee between a bollard on the dock and the hammer, smashed him pretty good. The emergency room took x rays and the doctor said they needed to operate and set it up for the next day. Workers comp. stepped in and said no, they were flying him anchorage to see their doctor. He decided they didn't need to operate, he only needed physical therapy. After 3 months of this they finally decided that they did need to operate. Thats 3 months wages, not to mention the bills for the doctor and physical therapist, the airfare or the pain they put this guy though. Guess what, after they operated, he needed 3 months of physical therapy:realmad:

[Diverbill45]

Spuddown, ........... Right there is a perfect example of WHY no one, and I mean no one, should ever let a doctor, on the company payroll or retained by a company, exam and treat them, or ever have an insurance company tell you that you can only see the doctor they recommend. Your best interests are NOT what they are concerned about.

You're also right on about OSHA rules being so vague. It's just a spin on words to make things come out on the side of the person that carries the most power and has the most money, and in most all cases OSHA has all the power and money.:angry:

I do firmly agree with you on everything you said, except for one and that depends on from what angle each of us looks at it. Yes, they do cost themselves a huge amount of money, but where does that money come from? It comes from each of our paychecks, so in assents we are actually paying out good money, to a government agency that is bogged down with rules, regulations and incompetent people, to screw ourselves over at a time, when injured, we need the help the most.:(

Sorry for the rant again, but that's the way it really is. Let's talk about something else, like partying in the Caribbean Islands, drinking margaritas, sun baked babes and scuba diving. God, ...... do I ever need a vacation.:D :D

This pic was taken in Barbados, at the beach behind the apartment I had, for 21 days, while there. I HAD to sit on the patio each evening, drinking a NASTY margarita, after a ROUGH day of diving and HAD to look at something like this. Man, was that ever rough to take. I really mean, it was rough to take, .................. giving that up to come back to reality.

[standles]

Standles, I love your sig line.:D :D :D


I does pertain to everday life pretty well doesn't it :drinkup:

[TxRedneck]

Once again well said Bill, on all accounts..best part was the great impression you left us with ... only bad part was reminding us of that reality part

[Diverbill45]

TexRed, ............... Thanks for the comment, but it was sort of a rant. Glad to see some others agree with me.

I know exactly what you're saying since I have been slightly injuried a few times on the job, in the past, and had to deal with that sort of thing. In the end things worked out pretty good, so I guess I can say that I was lucky in that sence, because I've seen other guys take a screwing.

Hey, .......... thanks for having me on this forum. As you know, I'm also on another one, which I joined awhile back and between the two forums, working part time on shutdowns, working around the shop and playing around with building mini-sandrails, I stay pretty busy. Now don't get me wrong, I've never said that I was a welder or a fabricator, I've just always tried to make my next project or weld be better than my last. I guess that that's all a guy can really strive for, at least that's the way I look at it.

If there is any information that I can pass on to other members, on a few subjects, I'd be more than willing to help, not that it'll be right or what others might want to hear, but just what's best worked for me, in the past.

Since I did make it through 38 years of the heavy construction trade and still have everything I came into this world with, except for some hair, a couple of teeth, a few aches and pain and the 20/15 eyesight that I once had, I guess I did okay. A few of my friends weren't so lucky.

Again, thanks for having me on the forum and if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'll drop you a line and look you up.:) I did meet Pile Buck a couple of months ago, and all I can say is, what a guy, really nice and friendly, and he has a nice shop also. Seems that we had worked a couple of the same jobs, in the past.

[TxRedneck]

Bill,
Its a pleasure and an honor having you on the site. I know, like pile buck himself you arent a professional, or a certified weldor, so why listen to you...well I say sometimes you can judge a book by its cover. Incidently I will be up that way here soon, but actually going up north a lil bit more. I am looking at a job in tacoma, though IM really hoping for a differnt job in spokane. Ill keep you posted on what happens incase we can meet up for a beer or a coke or something sometime. Take care Friend

[Rojodiablo]

This pic was taken in Barbados, at the beach behind the apartment I had, for 21 days, while there. I HAD to sit on the patio each evening, drinking a NASTY margarita, after a ROUGH day of diving and HAD to look at something like this. Man, was that ever rough to take. I really mean, it was rough to take, .................. giving that up to come back to reality.




JEEZZUS!!! Can I get hurt wherever the **** you were working to get recoup time there??? NICE PIC!!!!:help: Hurt me, send me off to heal...

[Diverbill45]

Tex, ........... If you're going to be in the Tacoma area, Pile (Carl) lives out about 20 miles northwest, towards Gig Harbor. Drop him a line (PM) and I'm sure he'd be glad to see you. Since he was injured and doesn't work anymore, except in his shop, he'd be more than happy to meet some of the guys from the forums. HEY, just a heads up, he's pretty proud of his shop and a tour will be made. If I had a shop like his, I'd be proud too. I can fit my shop in one corner of his. Oh yea, that air dryer he made and posted some pics of, out of a plastic garbage can and copper tubing, really works good and is pretty neat. Sure gave me some ideas.

As for me, I live south of Portland about 70 miles and southeast of Albany about 15 miles. I get up to Tacoma every so often, since I belong to the Boilermakers local there, but it's never a scheduled trip or a trip that I know when I'll exactly take. Anyway, if you're up in the area sometime, drop me a line and we'll work something out.:D :D

[Diverbill45]

Rojodiablo, ............. I wasn't recouping from a physical injury, just a mental injury. Had been on one of those big jobs where everything that could go wrong, went wrong. After being a general foreman for about 3 months on this job, it finally came to an end and I just had to get away. I was to the point that I would have shot the next engineer that I came in contact with.

I just jumped on a plane heading southeast and stopped in Florida for a few days, to see the sites, during spring break and I know you know what I'm talking about, then on to Barbados for 3 weeks. It was rough to deal with, but I survived the whole ordeal. A guy can only take so much of that, but I have broad shoulders and a fat a**, so I can handle alot of that kind of R&R.:D :D

Know what I mean?;)

[TxRedneck]

wastin away again in margaritaville...

[TxRedneck]

You bet Bill I sure willl. Thanks. I sent carl one PM already, dint get a response. Been under the weather so I figured he needed space with all goin on

[spuddown]

Bill, I think were on the same page, may have missed with the "themselves" comment, your right. That photo definetly is a mood changer. I've gotta ask though, how did that sunset look with your welding hood on?;)

[Diverbill45]

Spud, .......... It looked the same as it did with my hood up, I can't see anything anyway.

Naw, just kidding, it looked great each evening. Like I told the eye doctor the last time in for new glasses, " If you make me glasses any stronger, the next time I look at a Rand-McNally road atlas for directions, I'll be able to see people waving back at me.":eek: :D :D

[Diverbill45]

TexRed, .......... How'd you know that I got wasted at Jimmy's place in Key West? Yea, if fact I did it a couple of times, while there. I even went by and saw his house. It was up for sale. I know if I had a house like his, and where it's located, I never sell it. All I can say is, what a place and location.

I also sent Carl a PM and didn't get a response. Will have to email him and find out how he's doin. I know he's been under the weather and hasn't been on the site lately, so that's probably why we haven't got any response. If I find out anything, I'll let you know.

[TxRedneck]

I do appreciate it Bill.
I know hes been busy, and the other, I had over 20 hits with a louisville slugger to the noggin by kids and I get headaches at times. I can only imagine how he feels. I do appreciate it

[Diverbill45]

TexRed, .......... No problem, will do. Hey, if you hear something, from Carl first, give me a hollar.

Sounds like you run with a rough group.:eek:

Naw, just jushing, I really hope that all those Bas****s got their due. That kind of stuff is uncalled for, and I don't condone it at all.:realmad: :realmad:

Take care.

[TxRedneck]

Thanks Bill,
Group came to teach my brother a lesson. They brought a glock 9 but never used.....but they did get a lil jail time for it....victory is sweet :D

[Bob at WeldingMag]

OSHA apparently has an informal program where you invite them in to provide an offf-the-record inspection. They don't write up any violations, but they point them out so you can make your shop safer.

Based on the responses, I think I know the answer to the following questions, but the idiot inside me has to ask anyway:
Are you familiar with the program?
If you are, would you use it?

[DDA52]

Good question, Bob. Hmmmmmmm

Here is my take. I have been doing this stuff for almost 26 or more years now. I have had only one OSHA inspection. I have ducked out on two or three. So just by the avgs, I would say no, I would not use that little deal. If they came in, they could use any info or noticed violations for another inspection later and then they would know what you do and what to look for. I say, why put yourself on the map if not there already. If you are on the map already, then it just may be a good deal to find anything you have missed. It is a catch 22 almost. They will get you either way it seems.:(

[Diverbill45]

Bob, ........ To answer your first question: No I've never heard of that program. Since I'm now retired I really don't have to deal with them, except when I'm called out on a few shutdowns, every so often, and even then I usually don't ever come in contact with them, unless there is an accident.

Now for the second question. If I employed anyone in my shop, which I do have at my home, I really don't think that I'd invite them over for any type of inspection. Why? ............. because over the years I have seen just how nit picky they can get and if someone who has been around the construction and welding trade uses common sense, he usually already knows just about all the precautions and things that have to be done, in order to run a safe shop. The main problem that he has to keep on top of is, new inexperienced employees and employees that have a tendency to work unsafe. That problem can be solved without fines from an outside agency always looking over your shoulder.

Call it being paranoid or what ever you want, but from years of past experience, why invite OSHA over for a friendly inspection, coffee and donuts, when down the road you could wind up being a target for some new, over zealous, gung ho government employee with the "I'm the big dog in this kennel" attitude, who believes in the quota system as a means of climbing the ladder of success.

GRANTED, I have been on jobs where things weren't quite like they should be, and as a foreman, general foreman or even a crew member, I got things straightened out, or brought them to the attention of the employer. I just can't see having employees or employers subjected to inspections and fines by outsiders, who most of the time, don't have the experience or knowledge to know what they are talking about, and are telling you how things are to be done.

It's kinda like working with some of the NEW engineers, fresh out of college. You, being the lowly uneducated dumb construction worker, have to deal with "I'm the engineer around here, and the book says it will work, so it will work." attitude. Given a few years of experience, the dumb worker wasn't so dumb and the book wasn't so smart, after all.

Just keep it low key and SAFE and you won't have to worry about being a target for OSHA.

I do hope this, some what, answered your questions.

[spuddown]

Yes I have heard of this program and was asked by OSHA one time if I would like to set one up. I declined because we were loading out for an out of town job at the time. I told him I would get a hold of him another time. I think that once you let them in you are going to be a target. Their going to have a record of each violation that you had written down and they will check all of those things, then its more than likely going to be a different inspector and their going to search out a bunch of different things to nail you for, like I said before,they all seem to have their own little pet peeves. I agreee with Bill, they have a quota and most of them have an attitude, with a little power its a dangerous combination.

[TxRedneck]

this personally scares me...

[wirehunt]

Here's something to remember, they are supposed to be looking out for the worker's.

A few year's ago I was doing a job on some smaller tank's, around 100,000 litre. The guy I was sub'ed into didn't know anything about confined space work, now that's fine. I tried to tell him about the variuos rules and regulations, but he wasn't interested in doing anything right.

Now I didn't like that because it was my life he was mucking with, and it was a dangerous situation.

So I rung OSH myself, once they had been he sharpened his act up a little, not a lot mind you.

I think OSH over here is run a lot different to over your way, they try to educate here and don't dish out fines very much at all unless there's a major safety problem that a company know's about and doesn't fix. I don't know of any worker's beening fined. But I know that OSH have the power here to fine.


Stephen

[spuddown]

I don't blame you. Confined space is nothing to mess with. We do alot of barge work and you just don't go into a hold before its been blown down and the air tested with a sniffer. Sounds like OSHA there is different. That's the way it should be. Here though, for the most part these people need to run back to their office with the ticket book and justify their existance to their superiors.

[TxRedneck]

I think the biggest delima is its a good cause that went sour. Its full of govt' beauracracy and is afforded its own personal spending and funding based on whether it completes enough "stings." Because of this, and the fact that there are enough people who get into this and turn kinda Barney Fife on the deal its a disaster waiting to happen. My point is that youve got some hero that wants to come in and save lives, or youve just got a guy who is some old man whose angery at the world and cant think of anything more exciting than to ruffle the feathers of others. Anyone in the service or construction has seen this guy. IM sure you can find him in other sectors too. Ive had personal dealings with individuals like this on the forums. There is no method of checks and balances for these individuals. You almost need to come up with a company where you learn the letter of the law pertaining to OSHA, charge a small fee to companies to come out and cite all their safety hazards and help them to fix them, and then even offer instructional services on safety of all personel. You would not have any tie to OSHA except that you are well rehearsed on osha protocal and procedure so you are aware of what is one safe, and two what will prevent heavy fines. I think this is a super business oppurtunity. Anyone interested :D:laugh:

[wirehunt]

You laugh TxR, but we've got companies that are doing pretty much what you said. And charging consultant's fee's for it.

Stephen

[spuddown]

I'm sure there are companies around here that will do that too. Someone is always out there to try to capitalize off the fears of something. I've got to wonder about the liability issues. If you do a safety inspection and someone gets hurt because you missed something? How about if you do an inspection and then OSHA does and fines them for something, are you on the hook for the fine? How about if they tell you to fix something and you don't, aren't they obligated to call OSHA and report it before someone gets hurt. It seems there could be a whole lotta finger pointing going on.

[TxRedneck]

Hmm I do admit you would prolly need an attorney to go over some details, but I think you would not be on the hook, and I think if you find someting wrong and nothing is done about it, not your problem. You were hired to inspect and give the company info regarding whats right and whats not. If you are paid by the company and you tell them, its their business. IF you are hired by an employee and paid by that employee, you serve that employee. IF you hired by an insurance co you are obligated to inform them of violations. Obviously you would tell the company you are inspecting, and if thigns were corrected you would notifiy the client who hired you. They would then have the joy of going to osha or wherever and you would be called to testify as a material witness if necessary.

[spuddown]

I think I'm dizzy now!:dizzy:

[TxRedneck]

I try :dizzy: :dizzy: :drinkup: :drinkup: :drinkup:

[Diverbill45]

TexRed, ............. Point WELL made, but with this country being the sue capital of the world, I'm sure that there's some lawyer out there that could make it a lawyers buffet in some courtroom.

Granted, it would be an interesting, challenging and rewarding business to be into, but I think you would have to seek the help of some REAL SMART attorney, in order to make sure all the bases are covered real good, and then it would still be a roll of the dice, as to being protected from suits.:(

As ridiculous as this all is, it's just a fact of life, that we have to all live with, due to some people trying to make a fast and easy buck at someone else's expense.

It never stops amazing me how our court system is so back logged with so many frivolous suits by people and lawyers who are just trying to make a quick buck.

BTW, I just got papers in the mail Saturday, from the Circuit Court of the State of Oregon, stating that I had been selected for jury duty for June and July. I served one other time, quite a few years ago, and it was both interesting and in one case ridicules, as to what the case was about.:eek:

[spuddown]

Oh man, don't get me going on the jury duty thing.:angry:

[Diverbill45]

Hey Spud, ........... Sorry, I didn't mean to hit a soft spot there.;) Yea, I know, it's going to be sort of a PITA for me, since all the part time work I do, since retiring, is done away from home. I never really know when I'm going to get a call, so I really can't say if I'm even going to be around the area all of June and July. If for some reason I can't get out of the duty, I've got a feeling it may cost me a bunch in lost wages, if I happen to get a call during that time.:eek:

[spuddown]

Here's my thoughts. I think the justice system is really screwed up, Lawyers! You pretty much summed it up in your post above. However, I also think its the best one there is out there. I also think its everyones duty to take their turn on a jury. I have been called for the petite jury 13 years in a row so far. You are on it for one month. You have to call in every weekday after 6:00 pm. You can't plan your next day until then. When you are called you show up at 8:00, they set you in a room and you sit there til 10:00. Thats 2 hours of my time. Its happened everytime. Then they start the process. Sometimes it only takes a day sometimes two. Thats 2 days of lost wages. When your working 12 hour days you know the money were talking. Oh, they pay 25:00 per day. I've been lucky, I've never been chosen to sit on the trial jury. I've leared over the years there's a few comments you can say that will get you kicked by one lawyer or the other.Two years ago I got set on the Grand jury. That is a 3 month stint. You meet ever thursday. While I'm sitting on the grand jury I get called for the petite jury. COME ON! I did get out of that one. I live within easy driving distance of 12,000 people. I think its someone elses turn. I can't imagine getting set on a month or two trial. I don't see how people could go though it. Thats enough ranting , sorry!

[Roy Hodges]

I had to serve on jury duty in 1987 , i think it was . A MURDER trial. No more , no thanks. Just hearing the details made me sick, like somebody said, it's somebody elses turn. Thank goodness we knew he did it, it was just deciding what level of guilt he had. i was on it 2 weeks, thank goodness , i was a civil service worker, and got paid for it , but i'd rather stayed on the job , and let someone else be on jury . -

[Diverbill45]

Spud, ........... I know exactly what you're talking about, from my last shot at it. Call in and go wait, can't plan nothing. I'd rather sit and watch the grass grow or go down to the park and watch them shine the cannon.:dizzy:

Yea, lets not even talk about the money lost.:eek:

[spuddown]

You guys got a cannon?

[wirehunt]

So has no one sued OSHA??? If not why not?

[Scott V 2]

I helped my friend with a window cleaning business, clean the windows at
a OHSA convention. Talk about a Cluster #$&*!!!!:dizzy:

[Diverbill45]

Spud, ........... No, we don't have one here, in Lebanon, but the next small town over (Scio) does. It's a gift from WWII and yes they do shine it.:D

[Diverbill45]

Wirehunt, .............. I guess they are like some other branches of government, you can only sue them IF THEY let you.:eek:

I know this sounds unbelieveable, but I do know of one case where this took place, in the state of Massachuetts.

[TxRedneck]

theres a lil town in texas with a mexican name with a cannon. I dont know if they still shine it but it was made famous for that lil cannon :D

[spuddown]

Wirehunt, .............. I guess they are like some other branches of government, you can only sue them IF THEY let you.:eek:

I know this sounds unbelieveable, but I do know of one case where this took place, in the state of Massachuetts.

I think a person had better have real deep pockets to sue them. It might be tied up in court for years.

[spuddown]

Spud, ........... No, we don't have one here, in Lebanon, but the next small town over (Scio) does. It's a gift from WWII and yes they do shine it.:D

A few years ago I got called out on a crane job for the Coast Gaurd. I had to take a gun off the bow of the oldest boat in the fleet. I don't remember what size it was but it was like the ones you see in WWII movies with the steel seat. The foot peddles turned it and it had a hand crank to move the gun up and down. I was surprised how smooth and easy it worked after 50 years of riding on the bow. It was the oldest gun still in use in the military.They were sending it in to get refinished and then it was headed to the Smithonian Institute.

[Kim at WDF]

I've done some checking with OSHA. The agency's website, www.osha.gov, says the consultation program is free and is targeted primarily at smaller businesses. It's confidential -- a company's name and information is not provided to OSHA--and the results are not reported "routinely" to OSHA. Employers are obligated to correct serious job safety and health hazards. Knowing this information, would you consider inviting the "consultant" for a visit?

[TxRedneck]

Well Kim, Im hardheaded so personally I prolly wouldnt, but I do see your point and figure it prolly wouldnt hurt. But again My daddy used to tell me my head was as thick as a submarine hull and stubborn as a mule

[Diverbill45]

Kim, ........I'm not trying to put this in a bad light, but I just put a few key words together and this is why I'd never call for an inspection.

First: This information was gotten from the OSHA web site

Second: The word TARGET

Third: PEOPLE, even though it wasn't mentioned, in your post.

Fourth: The word TALK, that wasn't mentioned either.

Now, lets put these words together and see what we come up with.

You call OSHA for information, to setup for that free inspection, that is confidential, TARGETed for small companies, to have someone come out and do the inspection. The consultant comes out, the inspection is done and later on, some PEOPLE are just TALKing shop around the water cooler. Word just happens to get out and back to OSHA. BINGO, you have just made yourself a TARGET, in their sights.

It's just like fighting in a battle, do whatever it takes to keep yourself from becoming a TARGET, to the enemy. Your life depends on it.

Sorry, but I don't usually believe things are FREE, with no strings attached.

Just my opinion.

[Kim at WDF]

Thanks for sharing your opinions. I appreciate your candor.

[smithboy]

I would think it would put you on the radar if you used OSHA "consultants". I would check if there exist third-party consultants that might do it for a fee, but be obligated by a contract to report ONLY to you. If you hire them, you can stipulate what and with whom they can share information, if at all.

If they work for the OSHA in ANY WAY, they are government employees and are subject to open records...as long as no personal or confidential info is in danger of being exposed, this means any other branch of government or arm of OSHA could ask for and receive any document that was produced related to the visit...so, just cause they say they don't share the info, doesn't mean they will not if OSHA asks. The words "Confidential" and "Private" mean very specific things in the realm of government paperwork and it's not exactally what you might expect...especially given the new inter-agency informational cooperation that is happening these days.

The reason I know this is that I deal with acquiring data from the state and federal government for research...Open records is a tool I use often and privacy is not what it used to be.

[Diverbill45]

Smithboy, ............. You hit the nail on the head. I was just trying to go at it from a little different point of view.

The words "Privacy and Confidential" have two different meanings and it all depends on, if the government or "John Q. Public" private person is asking for the info or records.

Want to have some fun and get educated, all at the same time, just go down ask get a Webster's and a Black's Law dictionary. Open them both up and look up the definition of different words in each. Not all, but some words do have a little different meaning, between the two. I'm sure you know where the Black's Law Dictionary is widely used and of course, the rest of us get to rely on using Webster's.

Nothing is REALLY what it seems, or should be, when dealing with the government.

[Bob at WeldingMag]

I would check if there exist third-party consultants that might do it for a fee, but be obligated by a contract to report ONLY to you. If you hire them, you can stipulate what and with whom they can share information, if at all.


For what it's worth, I KNOW that there are third-party consultants who exist for precisely this purpose. I know that their work remains confidential; they aren't beholden to OSHA or any other agency, so there is no reason why it wouldn't remain confidential.

However, I have to wonder how many small businesses are even interested in that kind of help. As I see it, you pay someone to come in and point at things that are going to cost you money and create work -- without helping you earn more money. As much as a business owner may sincerely care for the safety of his workers, this kind of value-proposition simply isn't in the DNA.

Here's the other piece of it: a consultant is not a lawyer or a doctor, and the work is probably (though I'm no lawyer) considered privileged under law. So Even if he work is done confidentially, I would imagine the consultant could be compelled to testify if there ever WAS an accident that resulted in some kind of legal action.

Bringing in a consultant can reduce your liability in such cases IF YOU FOLLOW HIS ADVICE. But bringing in a consultant and ignoring his advice will not help you if you ever have to explain it to a judge.

[atsmith]

Osha got us one time. We just got done welding on another stik of H piling to one we already drove, it was getting toward the end of the day when an osha guy showed up and the first thing he saw was the rod was still in the stinger when it was rolled up. I didn't have a lighter with me so I used the rod to light my cigerette. That cost $600 along with a few other things.

[TxRedneck]

Well I just want to say, and I know I speak for all here, there is no disrespect intented. We all appreciate the info, and do want to take advantage of any good oppurtunity that is to be made. With that said, I believe too many of us have been burned or known someone who has been burned by a gov't entity or agency whom you went to or they offered info, and than you later find out that info is incorrect or sometimes completely garbage. You may find yourself, like I, asking why??...how???...and who would do such a thing. Infortunately these are often written by lawyers. More importantly they are written by lawyers who I believe have various interests in mind and will write a bill with add-ins that are not in the good of the people. Often it is hoped and expected folks signing and voting on these bills wont read the bill. Theres too many they say to read them all. So the bill gets signed into law, and most folks dont really know what it says. Its now legal jargon so common folks cant read it anyway. Ontop of that there are so many exceptions, loopholes and overriding factors involved that you end up in a very difficult situation to deciede what is going to work for you and what is not. I cant say that Bill, Smith, or any others including myself are correct in this, however, I can say we've been burned before and the saying, screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me holds for us. I find that its easier to not be fooled again and miss a good oppurtunity than to get caught in a black hole of trouble you cant escape. I personally believe if you are truely concerned about your employees well being, you will establish your own set of safety standards. This should have an elastic clause like our constitution, if it isnt already ever changing. This will enable the saftey guidlines and rule to ever grow. Following basic safety guidlines, proper tool handing, safe handling of material, offering your people safety equipment and the proper tools, or expecting them to bring their own but with proper pay to cover the costs. These are things that will help. If you lay it on the line, failure to follow safety guidlines will cost you a days pay, than I think folks will really learn to follow them.
Just my two cents and hope Ive not offended anyone here

[Kim at WDF]

I agree--why call the government down upon yourself.

A few years back, every small construction company in the county received an OSHA inspection. Fines were handed out, and everyone attended safety classes and presentation. But that did not stop one worker from being injured when his boss insisted he complete the roof despite the freezing rain.

[TxRedneck]

This definately is a problem. Ive found the best way to deal with a problem like this is ifyou really feel its unsafe, you tell your boss the problem. If they dont like what they hear, you drag up and move on. Ive never had a problem when an employer wanted to hire me and wnated to know why I drug up with the response I was asked was being asked to do something that was too risky. I explain the particular scenario. If they hire you they obviously agreed it was foolish to stay and wont hold it against you. If they cause any grief, I simply walk away. Ive never had trouble finding work. Finding the work I want for the price I want it, maybe. But there are other jobs out there.

[TxRedneck]

So I visited the site today. I am posting a quote. This affirms my fears. It's confidential, too. Your name, your firm's name, and any information you provide about your workplace, plus any unsafe or unhealthful working conditions that the consultant uncovers, will not be reported routinely to the OSHA inspection staff.

I see that they will not routinely report to the osha inspection staff. What does that assure you? Absolutely nothing in my opinion

http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/smallbusiness/consult.html

[TxRedneck]

Dispite my opinion that the work place under perfect conditions is dangerous, I dont think osha is really as concerned as safety as they are revenue.
Here is another quote from this page regarding how I believe this program is not in our best interests
Abatement and Follow Through

Following the closing conference, the consultant will send you a detailed written report explaining the findings and confirming any abatement periods agreed upon. Consultants may also contact you from time to time to check your progress. You, of course, may always contact them for assistance. Ultimately, OSHA requires hazard abatement so that each consultation visit achieves its objective -- effective employee protection. If you fail to eliminate or control identified serious hazards (or an imminent danger) according to the plan and within the limits agreed upon or an agreed-upon extension, the situation must be referred from consultation to an OSHA enforcement office for appropriate action. This has rarely occurred in the past.

[TxRedneck]

And again I am back, here is an answer to earlier stated arguements of the private consulting company. OSHA doesnt guarantee their services will guarantee a pass mark either The On-Site Consultants Will Not:

* Issue citations or propose penalties for violations of OSHA standards.
* Report possible violations to OSHA enforcement staff.
* Guarantee that your workplace will "pass" an OSHA inspection.

[spuddown]

Yesterday about 2:00 a mechanic that works in a shop down the road stopped by and said a Fed OSHA inspector with a raging...uh well anyway he was going though their shop. We shut down, locked up and went home early. This morning I went down to see how it went. here's he list.

1.He had a test meter and plugged it in every outlet in the shop. 2 outlets had reverse polarity. That's 2 separate violations.

2. 2 of their extention cords had reversed polarity on the plugs. 1 had black electrical tape on it where it had a scuff in the outside jacket only. Doesn't matter. One had the ground wire broke in the plug. 4 separate violations

3. 2 of the exit doors had something setting on the floor 23 inches from the door, the min. in 28". Not sitting in front of the door. These were sitting off to the side against the wall. 2 doors the exit signs weren't large enough. 4 separate violations.

4.The mezzanine in the shop did not have toeboards along the edge and didn't have the capacity stenciled on the outer beam. 2 seperate violations

5. Main shop air system didn't have a regulator on every port. The only way around this is if the main line is 30 psi max. 16 separate violations.

6. Halfway though he had to use the restroom, yep wrote them up for unsanitary facility. 1 separate violation.

7. He made every mechanic in the shop show him their airguns. 4 separate violations for non vented blowguns.

8.On the shop welder, the ground lead had a crack in the rubber where it bent down from the connector at the machine. Stinger lead had black tape where the rubber had gotten cut. 2 separate violations.

9. Respirator setting on one of the benches. wanted to see their respitory protection program. 2 violations, no program and if respirator is not on your face it has to be in a sealed bag.

10. Couldn't produce a MSDS for a gallon of 30# motor oil that was in the shop. 1 violation.

11. Had a mechanic working on a loader in the yard, no hard hat or safety vest. 2 violations.

12. Little warehouse forklift, no strobe light and no inspection book. 2 violations.

Thats about all I can remember, The inspector said they will receive their official citations in the mail with the fines posted on each violation. He added that they will want to negotiate the final amount of the fines.:cry: :cry:
We went though our shop and fixed all of these items. I was talking to another construction company here and he got them in Jan. I haven't gotten the list from them yet but they negociated the fines down to 10,000 dollars and paid it. Oh, I did leave an item undone in our shop for him to find, I think one way or the other they will find something. Now he won't need to look quite so hard.:D

[TxRedneck]

geez i hate these guys

[spuddown]

Would someone explain to me what the big deal is with reversing the polarity on extention cords. I've put plugs on cords but never worried to much about it as long as the ground was correct. It doesn't seem that long plugins have had the wider prongs. MAC702?

[wirehunt]

Osha got us one time. We just got done welding on another stik of H piling to one we already drove, it was getting toward the end of the day when an osha guy showed up and the first thing he saw was the rod was still in the stinger when it was rolled up. I didn't have a lighter with me so I used the rod to light my cigerette. That cost $600 along with a few other things.


Your kidding??????

Then I see spuddown's list:confused: No wonder you guy's are so against OHSA!

Thank god that its nothing like that here, if it was the OHS inspector's would have to have their own bouncer's because there's only one thing going to happen to them.

[TxRedneck]

they have the power of law behind them :(

[smithboy]

I wonder if OSHA has a black-ops team that could be sent into foreign countries to shut down their industrial complex...talk about WMD...I bet they would make Delta Force look like a bunch of amateurs.

[scsmith42]

Fifteen years ago I was the General Manager of a small steel fabricating company. Osha came in and did a surprise inspection on our fabricating shop (approximately 5 welding machines). The two worst things that we were cited for were an electrical outlet with a broken cover, and an extension cord with a missing ground plug, along with some similar minor violations as outlined by Spuddown's post above.

The fines came in at 40K. Yep, 40 grand for things that basically were not serious hazards. We negotiated down to 25K, and paid the fine. This took a serious chunk out of the profit that year, and ate into the monies that we'd set aside for raises for the team.

We were told by our attorneys that OSHA basically funded their own costs throug the fines. Not much respect on my part for them.

[gnm109]

For a period of approximately 15 years starting in the late 1970's I was a safety consultant for a very large Workers' Compensation Company. As part of my services to policy holders we would make visits and do mock OSHA inspections. I always went for what I considered important, to name a few: things such as bare electrical, open holes in the ground, improper guarding on power drives and V-belts, poor welding safety practices regarding handling of gas cylinders and eye protection, etc. I would try to find everything that I could that the OSHA folks might write up. The purpose of this was to help the policyholder avoid fines and shutdowns by tipping them off to poor conditions before the OSHA folks arrived.

I would often get reports from my clients after a real OSHA inspection showing what the OSHA inspectors went for. It was evident from reading their write-ups that they tended to stay within their area of expertise. For example, a certain OSHA inspector might have an extensive background in electrical issues or perhaps another would be well-versed in mechanical issues. This would almost invariably be reflected in the kinds of violations that they would catch. The electrical guy would write up the electrical stuff and the mechanically-inclined person would go after guards and power drives.

While a violation is a violation, I always thought that OSHA was supposed to find it all. Often, I would write things up that the OSHA folks ignored simply due to their focus. So, they are certainly not perfect.

That said, there's a lot to be said for safe practices in a workshop. As someone once said, "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye". In fact, we gave out safety signs that said "If you think safety glasses are uncomfortable, try working with a glass eye!".

[TxRedneck]

That said, there's a lot to be said for safe practices in a workshop. As someone once said, "it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye". In fact, we gave out safety signs that said "If you think safety glasses are uncomfortable, try working with a glass eye!".
I do agree with this quote. That someone is my friend BBchevy396 and its soo true. I guess my personal side on this is the theory of osha is great. I support full heartedly. The bureacracy of it is where I fail to gain respect, or any support. I would agree with the above statements that they are localized. Never thought of it before, however, what the gentleman states is true in every limited case Ive heard of. I guess bashing osha is not necessarily what we should be doing. I am sure I am guilty as are others. Yet there are injustices, and there are realities. I believe in all fairness its suffice to say we need to all be aware of what realities are out there so we can better prepare for them. I believe there are safety infractions that are real safety issues that wont be pursued and others that are hardly that will lead us to crucifiction. But perhaps most important is that business leads to a tendency to forget the health and well being of the workers. I admit its expensive to keep up safety measures, replace damaged or broken tools and devices. Cords burn and prongs break. Accidents occur and safety glasses are a nuisance or a cost at best. Despite this, it is in the business owners best interests to maintain the safety of the shop. When there is one or two maybe three guys, a lot can be taken for granted and is ok. But once you get a handful, or 50 or more, you begin to see a situation that needs safe practices, and proper equipment. Its hard to distinguish fairly without putting blanket regs on things. Problem again gets to folks having specialty areas, and being extra critical of those and not others, and well we know how it goes. Ive blathered long enough. Just something to think about.

[bearracecars]

i was working at a small shop (3 people total) when osha showed up my boss which was a real hard *ss to people coming into the shop (why i don't know maybe they were inconviencing him or something) the inspector came in boss greated him told him he was from osha and was in town to do a random inspection (i think the boss p****d off a part time guy that was there for about a week) his office was 3.5 hours from our town just stopped in to our little hole in the shop for a random inspection yeah right? so my boss told him that he works by appointment only and that he would have to make an appointment and then return for the apointment then the osha guy guy told him that that is not the way that it works and if he had to return it would be with the sheriff and that he would shut him down so then my boss was ever so happy to acomadate him. he wrote him up for the stupidest things something about the flourescent lights stomp shear didn't have proper finger guards which all the original guards were intacted and in place we had to make secondary guards over the first guards had to replace all of the airlines to copper instead of pvc but hte real kicker was the osha guy must have had no exp. in fab/metal work or machinery cause i was running the mill machining something and he came over and asked me what the name of the machine that i was working on. didn't even know what a mill was? then he called us all individaully into the office and interogated us about safty practices and really grilled me on if my boss had given me proper instruction on how to use a can of spray paint i wanted nothing more to be very sarcastic to the guy but i was as nice as i could be
they did the same negotiated the fines down but don't know what the final outcome was


bear
--------------------------------------------------------------------
as one old timer once told me
"if you can't hold the tolerances at least make it shiny"

[WTFnOOb]

I am on jobs that are visited by OSHA regularly. If you are looking for OSHA compliance, you can call your local OSHA office and ask for a 'courtesy visit'. This is a service to help general contractors and company management improve safety. They usually do not issue fines on these visits. Also, there are OSHA classes you can take for safety awareness. There are 10 hour (basic safety requirements) and a 40 hour (more advanced) classes available. Check with your local union or community college for info.

[Kim at WDF]

I heard another OSHA story last night over dinner -- another contractor, a drywaller, asked OSHA for one of those free consultations I mentioned earlier in this thread. The contractor invited the inspectors to evaluate his crews in an effort to reduce his insurance rates. That sounds like a good business practice. However, the other contractors keep their crews away for a day or two. Now the project is behind schedule and may not come in on time. I can hear the project owner now:realmad:

[imagineer]

Yep, we recently got visited by OSHA too. One of our floor employees, a liberal, democrat, pro-union muck-raker, called them and suggested they come on out for an inspection. Two days later, we were fined nearly $30k, more than half our work centers were shut down until we could fabricated pretty yellow fences around them and now every employee has to walk around with little foam plugs in our ears. The foam ear plugs were always available, but because we were not forcing the workers to wear them, we got slapped. We also got our collective wrists slapped for not having MSDS sheets available on the plant floor.

The same “person” (I use the term loosely) also called the Wage and Hour people, the E.E.O.C. She felt we were making our supervisors (who WERE salaried, but still eligible for O.T.) work too many hours. All totaled, this “person” cost the company $42,150.00 in fines and also caused our plant wide labor costs to go up 4.5%. Also, not only did none of our supervisors get a pay increase, they all lost any future opportunities for overtime.

[spuddown]

They settled the fines for the violations on post #78 for $8,900.00, I'm not sure what the original amount was.