New 175 Plus with Argon and Electrical Questions

[v8eater]

Hey Everyone,
I just bought a SP175 Plus for home use. It says the the power core is 50 amp. I haven't ran wire for it yet and wanted to know it #8/3 with common will be big enough and a 50 amp breaker. Should I go with #6/3 wire instead?

One other. I use a Syncowave 250TIG at work and I use 100% Argon for Stainless, Mild, and Aluminum. Can I use pure Argon with good result with a MIG? Reason for asking is I can get Argon here for....... well, lets say real cheap:) .

Thanks James L.

[dctwelding]

you would not want to use strait argon with mig unless you are welding aluminum, your penitration will be slight if any and the arc is not real stable

[Sandy]

I just bought a SP175 Plus for home use. It says the the power core is 50 amp. I haven't ran wire for it yet and wanted to know it #8/3 with common will be big enough and a 50 amp breaker. Should I go with #6/3 wire instead?

I'll just guess you meant power "cord" instead of "core". No big deal anyway. I don't own a lincoln but I think if you look at the tag on the machine you'll find it needs somewhere between 19 and 21 input amps. So yes the #8 will be fine except all you need for a dedicated 220volt welder is two hots and a ground, no nuetral/common required. In electrical lingo #8/3 with ground would actually have four wires in it. So depending on how you make the run and what type of wire you use you'll end up with two hots and a ground, three wires total.

If this is going to be a tough run to make and since I didn't see any evidence of sticker shock in your wording when talking about #8 or #6 :) either would be a good choice.

[wizard]

Hey Everyone,
I just bought a SP175 Plus for home use. It says the the power core is 50 amp. I haven't ran wire for it yet and wanted to know it #8/3 with common will be big enough and a 50 amp breaker. Should I go with #6/3 wire instead?

Hey we are in the same boat here as I've recently purchased the SP175 Plus. Unfortunately configuring a proper circuit for the welder is a bit complicated. First lincoln recommends a 40 amp breaker. Personally I highly recomend that the circuit be wired to work correctly with that size breaker. So at a minimum that would be 8/2 wire. It should be noted that all you need for a welder circuit is the two hots and a ground.

Beyond that you should take into account the length of the run and the possible voltage drop, this could easily move you into #6 territory.

This question has come up before (wire sizing) and I always make a point to suggest that every one have the wiring properly sized for the breaker that will be protecting the wiring. The breaker is there to protect the wiring and by association the people in the building. So if you take Lincolns reccomendations to heart you need a forty amp branch circuit feeding the outlet.

In the old days there was little else that owould plug into a wleder outlet. Today there i sthe potential for other items to be plugged into the outlet that are demanding such as plasma torches. It is important that the electrical run be done properly.


One other. I use a Syncowave 250TIG at work and I use 100% Argon for Stainless, Mild, and Aluminum. Can I use pure Argon with good result with a MIG? Reason for asking is I can get Argon here for....... well, lets say real cheap:) .

I doubt you would like the results but you could use CO2.

Thanks James L.


Dave

[RubenZ]

You do not want to do the bare minimum. Secondly its not complicated at all to run.

Just get a Bi-Pole 50amp break, some 6/3 wire, a NEMA 6-50R receptical and your all set. Pay no attention to the neutral wire as you really don't need. Also by a box to house the 6-50 plug and just flush mount it to your wall.

You honestly don't even need a electrician to do the work. Just be very careful like you would when dealing with any electrical device.

IMO the hardest part of setting up 220 to my back garage was digging the actual trench lol.

[gnm109]

As mentioned above, pure argon is not good for MIG. Best bet is ArgonC02 75/25, unless you're cheap like I am and then you'll use C02.

Actually, C02 is getting a bad rap. It's perfectly capable of making great welds, just not as pretty as Argon/C02. The penetration is superb, though. And with argon running $50-$75 a bottle locally, hobby welders like me use C02. A 20# bottle is less than $30 for me and has the same amount of gas output as a 160 cu. ft. cylinder of argon/C02.

BTW, I have 10 ga. wire to my 220 VAC line for the Lincoln 175 with a 40 amp breaker and have yet to have a problem. As Sandy says above, input current is around 19-21 amps and 10 ga., handles that nicely. 8 ga. would be ideal and 6 is more than you need, IMHO.

I'm not totally cheap, though. On my 250/250 Idelarc TIG/STICK, I have a 60 amp breaker with 6 ga. wire. ;)

.

[wizard]

I have to raise objection to the implication below. IT is NOT safe to put a 40 amp breaker into a circuit made up of 10 gage wire. The purpose of the breaker is to protect the branch circuit wiring and thus the structure the wiring is in. You are close, but as far as the NEC is concerned not there, the wire is undersized for the breaker.



Thanks
Dave




........
BTW, I have 10 ga. wire to my 220 VAC line for the Lincoln 175 with a 40 amp breaker and have yet to have a problem. As Sandy says above, input current is around 19-21 amps and 10 ga., handles that nicely. 8 ga. would be ideal and 6 is more than you need, IMHO.

[MAC702]

IT is NOT safe to put a 40 amp breaker into a circuit made up of 10 gage wire. The purpose of the breaker is to protect the branch circuit wiring and thus the structure the wiring is in. You are close, but as far as the NEC is concerned not there, the wire is undersized for the breaker.

Actually, Article 610 of the NEC would allow this for this welder. In a residential setting, it might be discouraged by some electricians, and in any case, it should be well-labeled with no chance of someone else using the circuit for something else.

[gnm109]

Actually, Article 610 of the NEC would allow this for this welder. In a residential setting, it might be discouraged by some electricians, and in any case, it should be well-labeled with no chance of someone else using the circuit for something else.

There's no chance of anyone else using it. It's in my machine shop with a dedicated plug matching the welder and clearly marked, too.

[MAC702]

That said, a 175A welder only needs a 30A circuit. Where did all this big wire/big breaker talk get started? It comes with a 50A plug because that is historically a typical welder plug. Unless you want to allow for future upgrades (not a bad idea), you only need to run 10/2 (plus ground) and install a NEMA 6-50R receptacle.

[Sandy]

That said, a 175A welder only needs a 30A circuit. Where did all this big wire/big breaker talk get started?

Since the individuals original question was will #8 be big enough, the answer has to be yes. Since v8eater seemed okay with running a #8 circuit, and knowing that #8 would accomodate welder upgrading, the addition of a nice stick welder, plasma cutter and so-on there is no reason to talk him down.

In fact it's rather pleasant having someone offer up a question containing a circuit sized slightly larger than the absolute minimum rather than the usual wrestling match of getting them to go up 1/2 a notch.

[Roy Hodges]

I used to have problem with my miller dial arc 250 hf(for tig) was wired for 70 amps w/70 amp breaker . it worked , but every time i shut it off , would trip breaker . I finally went from a zinsco 100 amp box to a challenger 200 amp box , hard wired the miller to a 100 amp breaker , wallah ! no more problems . At the same time i provided 50 amp outlet for the sp 250 lincoln mig, and a couple 20 amp outlets for air compressor ,etc. by the way , my sp250 has an "extension cord" about 30 ft. long 4 conductor #6 , no problems . i know it don't need 4 wire , but it was given to me .

[MicroZone]

It should state in your Lincoln book what is required. In my book for my "Miller time" it had a chart and the rating for several examples of how to hook it up. I was so busy with other work, I just called an electrician, talk to him for a few and he hooked it up nicely with nice bent conduit, box and all.

Problem is, when you have someone doing work for you, you end up allocating other tasks so I ended up with more 8 footer lights in my shop. :D

[RubenZ]

That said, a 175A welder only needs a 30A circuit. Where did all this big wire/big breaker talk get started? It comes with a 50A plug because that is historically a typical welder plug. Unless you want to allow for future upgrades (not a bad idea), you only need to run 10/2 (plus ground) and install a NEMA 6-50R receptacle.

The problem with that is why would anyone want to just get by. Yes his machine will work on a 30A curcuit, but say he decides later he wants a stick? or a bigger Mig Welder, I sure as heck wouldnt want to have to go out and redo all the wiring and re-dig up a trench etc to put a heavier a wire.

[MAC702]

As long as it's an INFORMED decision, he can run #6 wire, sure. But actually, if he was "getting by" he could run #12 for that welder, if he used a receptacle that would hold a wire that small. #10 is more than adequate for that machine. For someone to recommend larger, they should include that it would be for future upgradability, and that it provides no measurable benefit to this installation. Don't mean to step on any toes.

[v8eater]

Hey everyone, sorry for not getting back to you all sooner. Haven't been off from work long enough to run wire yet.

I did decide to go ahead and get the 6/3 with a common. I know...one wire too many, but I'll have it if I need it. It was only .10 cents a foot more than 8/3. So as mentioned above I want have to worry later if I get some that requires more amps. Our next camper will probally be 50 amps anyway.

Hopefully, I will get wire ran next weekend and pick up a 75/25 Argon/co2 also.

Thanks for all the help, James L.

[MAC702]

I did decide to go ahead and get the 6/3 with a common. I know...one wire too many, but I'll have it if I need it... Our next camper will probally be 50 amps anyway.
Good future planning if you think you'll use the same receptacle. In that case, I'd suggest getting a NEMA 14-50R receptacle that will use the neutral wire and then build an adapting extension cord for the welder (to a NEMA 6-50R) that does not use the neutral. That way, the receptacle in the wall is 50A, 4-wire enabled with no modifications, and already perfect for a 50A RV.