Getting Burned

[Joker11]

Do you guys ever get burned? Not on your skin, but in your wallet? Because I am a generally nice guy who takes pride in my work, I took a job for a fish breeder. He needed a bunch of stands for his aquariams made. I made a prototype for him to use and make any design changes. The order was to be for about 50 stands to fill his basement. Once I delivered the finished product to him I got no order and I did not get paid for the prototype, which in fact was a finished product. I spent a good deal of time, not so much money on it.
Here's my problem, how do you get someone to pay for something before you build it. I want them to have faith that I will deliver as promised, but I don't want them to shy away either. I know some of you guys have large operations and that isn't a concern for you, but for a one man operation there are some challenges to overcome.
I will listen to what you guys have to offer and hopefully not get burned again. Thanks for reading my post.
:)

[imagineer]

Due to recent equipment and skills additions, my mother-in-law asked if I would quote to fabricate 3 hand rails for a stair at her church. Mind you, this woman would just as sure push me into traffic if given the chance. Because her church is also a private day care, the state is forcing them to split the entry stair so one half is ADA compliant with a ramp (mind you, not one church member or kid in the day care program has a handicap). Long story shortened, I fronted the cost of the metal and welded up a nifty set of 3 hand rails, two with ADA rub rails, and submitted my invoice for $1200.00. 60 days or so later, I get a call from the guy who painted and installed them, asking if I'd been paid yet. I hadn't. Not wanting to ruffle her feathers, I asked my wife to ask her mother to ask the pastor for a check. Turns out, they never had the money but were counting on new donations from the congregation to foot the bill. No donations came in so they asked me to eat the invoice. Again, not wanting to cause problems, I calmly asked for them to make the full payment, even it it was in small monthly installments. Now they're asking me to resubmit a much higher (10X) invoice so I can claim it as a loss and get my $1200 back by reducing my taxable adjusted gross income. This is a church recommending tax fraud. Bottom line, for harmony in MY household, I'm taking a loss on the original invoice.

Needless to say, I learned my lesson and any future endeavours like this, I'll split my quotes to show material separate from labor and ask for part if not all the material expenses up front.

[smithboy]

1/2 up front, 1/2 on delivery, maybe another 1/2 if you can think of something else to charge for.

Imagineer, since you mother-in-law's church leaders are obviously unconcerned with dishonesty and theft (two of the 10 big ones), I would submit my actual invoice and if payment was not forthcomming, go and reposses the rails with a saw on Sunday @ noon. The suggestion that the pastor made pretty much fits the definition of conspiricy to commit tax fraud...the very thing white collar criminals are going to jail for these days...and what he/they did to you, theft of services and materials.

I believe I would remind your wife that $1200 would have been a nice vacation or Christmas or something for you that is now effectively stolen from your family by friends of her mother. I am for keeping peace in the family, but stealing and condoning because someone "of the cloth" committed the act is no way to keep peace. You have to separate the church from the leaders. The church didn't do this...the leaders did.

Well, I might not be unbiased about this...I used to work in a auto shop and a local church did the same thing with their church bus to us. They brought it in to get the automatic transmission repaired. We got a rebuilt transmission that they ok'ed at the cost of nearly $2,000 (not including labor), and then said they would have to wait until next month to pay...which turned into 6 months...which turned into never. I was 19, about to have a child, close to broke, working my way through college, and personally lost over $300 (my share of the labor) in that one....not to mention what the owner lost in the part.

Any work I do for my own church is donated, but the materials are purchased by the chruch, not by me....left over cynicism, I guess.

[MAC702]

Some reason why you haven't gone back over there and picked up YOUR prototype?

[MAC702]

This is a church recommending tax fraud.
Hmmm, what church it that? Tells us something about the message of God THEY teach. Be worth knowing.

[imagineer]

Hmmm, what church it that? Tells us something about the message of God THEY teach. Be worth knowing.

I won't divulge their religion, but suffice to say they have service on Saturday.

I considered reposessing the railings, but that would be even more of my time, would look like vandalism, and would teach the wrong lesson to my kids.

Basically, I'm taking this one in the shorts. :angry:

My wife has been playing referee between her mother and I since we met 13 years ago. That they live 1/4 mile from us and we see them everyday, like it or not, I have to keep my disappointment in check and be pleasant.

[smithboy]

Mac,
I have learned that God speaks for himself. All I have to do is listen. Man speaks for himself also...however, often, he/she has nothing of value to say.

[MAC702]

Mac,
I have learned that God speaks for himself. All I have to do is listen. Man speaks for himself also...however, often, he/she has nothing of value to say.
Sorry about the religious hijack. Do keep in mind, though, that God DID leave older men in charge of the Christian congregation in the first century. These days, the trick is to find the one that's still practicing the Christianity as found in the Bible. Promoting tax fraud would be disqualifying (Romans 13.)

Back on topic, I still say to go back and remove your prototype by force. Let them call the cops. In fact, call their bluff and demand it.

[Roy Hodges]

I hear you guys . charity is charity, but , business is ..... business. Once , some woman show up to my business (at my house ) had a small japanese rice burner pick-up , and a (gift) trailer hitch for a car, she wanted me to install. Her rear bumper had the center piece MISSING , held together (?) with bailing wire . She SAID men in her church promised to install it , but "never got around to it " . She wanted me to install it , i said , well , it'll require extra bracing installed ,she says o k . I told her $150. She said, well "i am on welfare , won't you do it "for charity?". I said "there's the road, hit it ". ( she was going to hook on a 14' box trailer to move , and would have loaded it -way overloaded . ) i said no, i will NOT accept this job , even for pay . some jobs you cannot afford. Consider the facts, before you stick your neck out . Never take a job , that worrys you.

[prop-doctor]

allways 1/2 up front(gota cover cost of materials) and an agreement to pay final--( gota have on paper) not all (men/ladys) {equal rights} stick with the old ways a gents hand shake .. for me if it s over $200 i get a work order --and right bussiness is bussiness--- if all else fails use small claims court.

[welder.man]

I look at a job, Quote it and get half up front and the other half on completion of work. I don't let the job leave the workshop until I have been payed in full. Unless it is a good regular customer. ( I was burnt once too)

I don't be rude about it but I just explain to customers why it is so and most are fine, the few that make a fuss I probably would have had trouble with anyway.

I would go and collect your prototype and next time I would show but not leave it with them. Not so long ago I designed a fairly simple set of doors and a handrail for a place the roof had sagged and the whole place was rotting timber,So I drew and quoted it gave it all to her and when I went back a few weeks later to see the lady she had already had it done exactly like I my design. She said she never wanted me to do the work she just wanted my design And advice on how to re lift the roof and make it all work. So now I tend to be very tight lipped until the deposit is payed.

As far as the handrail I understand about trying to keep the peace but your wife, kids and mother-in-law will respect you a lot more if you stand up for your rights. The church is really sending out a bad message and maybe you should explain that to them.

Simon
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~abba/index.html

[WillieB]

as an old credit manager once told me, "It ain't a sale til the money is in the bank."

[gnm109]

1/2 up front, 1/2 on delivery, maybe another 1/2 if you can think of something else to charge for.

Imagineer, since you mother-in-law's church leaders are obviously unconcerned with dishonesty and theft (two of the 10 big ones), I would submit my actual invoice and if payment was not forthcomming, go and reposses the rails with a saw on Sunday @ noon. The suggestion that the pastor made pretty much fits the definition of conspiricy to commit tax fraud...the very thing white collar criminals are going to jail for these days...and what he/they did to you, theft of services and materials.

I believe I would remind your wife that $1200 would have been a nice vacation or Christmas or something for you that is now effectively stolen from your family by friends of her mother. I am for keeping peace in the family, but stealing and condoning because someone "of the cloth" committed the act is no way to keep peace. You have to separate the church from the leaders. The church didn't do this...the leaders did.

Well, I might not be unbiased about this...I used to work in a auto shop and a local church did the same thing with their church bus to us. They brought it in to get the automatic transmission repaired. We got a rebuilt transmission that they ok'ed at the cost of nearly $2,000 (not including labor), and then said they would have to wait until next month to pay...which turned into 6 months...which turned into never. I was 19, about to have a child, close to broke, working my way through college, and personally lost over $300 (my share of the labor) in that one....not to mention what the owner lost in the part.

Any work I do for my own church is donated, but the materials are purchased by the chruch, not by me....left over cynicism, I guess.

You sum up the issues very well. Conspiracy to commit tax fraud is a very serious matter. I think welders (and other people who do work or services) should get a major portion of their money up front. People like to forget who did the work after they receive the benefits of your labor.

[lotechman]

Welder.man I met a guy who got stung similarly and he sent the customer a bill for his consulting. They paid it rather than see him in court. He had documentation and witnesses.
The 50 percent deposit is wise. Any drawings you do for the customer make them minus dimensions and if possible include a few mistakes that are obvious to you only.
We have something called a mechanics lien that can be placed on any premises if work is done on the property.
An electrician friend got stung so many times he went to his lawyer every Friday with a list of properties. One Friday evening we are sitting in McDonald's with the kids when he tells me how he drops the list on the lawyer's desk. The lawyer freaks out when he sees his new house on the list.
My friend said it was very entertaining watching him phoning the general contractor. The general contractor was holding back funds to all the sub trades. All the time the lawyer is begging my friend not to make him file the lien on his own property.

[scott brunsdon]

My wife was asked about 3 years ago to do a book cover design for a small, left wing/socialist, local publisher. It was only a $700 job. They kept fobbing off calls for payment and she was going to write it off as a bad debt.
'Nope', I said. 'They commissioned the work and used it. So they're going to pay for it.' She rolled her eyes.
I took the next day off work and I bundled Lisa and our 2 year old into the car and we paid them a visit.
It was an open plan office and we walked straight through reception and plonked ourselves down in the central seating area. The baby started pulling things off shelves and people started coming out of their cubicles to see what was going on.
The boss showed up and asked what we wanted. I said we had a long outstanding invoice that we wanted settled today. I pointed to the baby and said we use the money we earn to feed and cloth her and ourselves.
He said the cheque would have to come up from Melbourne. I said that was fine as we had all day and were happy to sit there.
He said he would call the police. I said I would call the media. I told hm I knew a journalist (mentioned her by name) who would love the irony of a well known, left wing publisher not paying a contractor and calling the police to toss a very photogenic baby out onto the street. (That was a bluff.)
He said he was going to phone his solicitor.
I said my brother was a lawyer in commercial litigation and I could tie him up in so much legal **** at no cost to me that it would take him a year to sort it out. (Another bluff.)
By then we had quite an audience. And the girls were enamoured with the baby.
I asked his employees how they felt working for a boss who didn't honour his commitments.
I asked them whether they were sure their holiday and superannuation entitlements were being acrued correctly.
He found a cheque book pretty quickly.

The business I run is one where we don't deliver until we have been paid in full.

[orphan68]

I've got to agree. Get everything in writing: receipts, quotes, seperate materials from labor(not necessarily itemize, unless they request it), agree on a down, which 50% is right on, and always have someone witness the exchange of money and maybe even sign the receipt as a witness. Have at least three copies, one for you, one for customer, and one for taxes. I don't do any work, but a machine shop I worked at had many of these problems until I took over. I got the trust of our subcontractors and never had any problems, but I had to do alot of this type of "customer service" for both customers and subcontractors.

[tapwelder]

Joker

Down payments are good. I think that if you do not charge a down payment then you are extending a loan to your client. You are loaning them money because your tying up your money in their material. Most clients don't see it this way.

1/2 down is relative to what you charge. Definately cover your expenses. You can just as easily get burned by charging a blanket 1/2 without charging enough for the job. If you can't get a down payment then ask if they will purchase the material.

I charge 1/3. If material is between $800- $1000, then I usually cover it. I charge greater than 5 times material cost. The last two months have been 10 times per job (more customs stuff). My average job is usually about $200 in material.

No down payment is convient because I don't have to wait to pick up a check to start a job. The more time I spend driving to get or waiting for a check, the less time I have to build. I've jobs for clients I've never seen the check just comes in the mail.

Get stuff in writing, Value your product and service, Don't be afraid to walk away.

[Root Dog]

Everyone that has been in business and dealt with the public, has probably dealt with this same problem. It happened to me. So as suggested, Demand a portion of the total up front. If they are ligit, they won't mind this at all. Because , It shows good faith. You just have to hold up your end of the deal. If you advertised that you were working for free, you wouldn't have enough parking space for every customer. You would have to work 24/7 and still get behind. I would do charity work too, But I would earmark a job and have them make the check out to the CHILDRENs HOME (orphanage) In the town where I lived.

[Joker11]

Nice to see I am not alone. Thanks guys.

[imagineer]

As far as the handrail I understand about trying to keep the peace but your wife, kids and mother-in-law will respect you a lot more if you stand up for your rights.

No, you

[imagineer]

As far as the handrail I understand about trying to keep the peace but your wife, kids and mother-in-law will respect you a lot more if you stand up for your rights. The church is really sending out a bad message and maybe you should explain that to them.

No, you’re wrong. Endless brooding and badgering these deadbeats won’t solve anything. My wife and kids realize we got screwed. They also know that this church is dirt poor, most of the members (not including my in-laws) are also, if it weren’t for the day care (which helps out about 12 single moms in the local community), they’d go belly up.

I’m going to take the high road and simply go on. I will continue make myself available to help the in-laws when asked and may even help out with their church projects if they’re so tactless to ask me.

$1200.00 will not break my family, nor is it worth driving an even bigger wedge between my wife and her mother.

[welder.man]

Imagineer I guess your right it takes a bigger man to accept it and walk away, But it is just wrong what they did to you.


Simon
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~abba/index.html

[Root Dog]

Imagineer, sounds like it was a charity job on their part from the start. Without even asking you. You're right on target about letting it go. Just can't ride a dead horse. Keeping pease and not driving any wedges, shows you are the bigger man.

[Joker11]

Well, since I am a one man band and I was running my business out of my truck, I bid the job really low. One, I wanted the work, two, I figured all I had to do was get my foot in the door, three, I figured there would be more work to come as a result and I could reap the rewards at that time. I let it go. He won't find another shop to build it at the price I was quoting. If he does...it will most likely be inferior workmanship. So let him live and learn. He does have ONE really nice stand though....that won't match any of his others.

[MAC702]

I took a job for a fish breeder. He needed a bunch of stands for his aquariams made. I made a prototype for him to use and make any design changes. The order was to be for about 50 stands to fill his basement. Once I delivered the finished product to him I got no order and I did not get paid for the prototype, which in fact was a finished product. I spent a good deal of time, not so much money on it.
Have you talked at all with him? Maybe instead of waltzing in there and demanding payment, just make a visit and say something like, "Hey, good to see you again. I noticed you decided that you weren't in need of any stands from me, so I came by to pick back up the sample that I loaned you. I have a chance to use it myself for another project now." They should either get the hint or give it back. But if I saw the thing while I was in there, I wouldn't be leaving without it or the money. Just start unloading it as you again thank him for the opportunity you had to demonstrate your services.

[MAC702]

He won't find another shop to build it at the price I was quoting. If he does...it will most likely be inferior workmanship. So let him live and learn. He does have ONE really nice stand though....that won't match any of his others.
Could be he can build (or his kid/nephew, etc can) but can't design squat, so they got you to design one and deliver it and then copied it themselves.

[smithboy]

imagineer,
I guess when you put it that way, it becomes a more difficult decision, however, it sounds like you might have suspected this outcome early on in the process and you were a bit hesitant about backing out...I might have done the same thing in your position. The church that burned us was 250 members strong with several local businessmen as their members. I still get angry thinking about it...I guess that's evident. Though similar in nature, your situation is a bit different.

One thing that might be a good trade is for the church to give you a bit of word-of-mouth advertising. That could easily make up for the lost income, if a few folks spread the word about how good a job you did and at "SUCH A REASONABLE PRICE!!!" A preacher could easily thank you in front of the congregation for your quality work...I would think a "thank you" is both appropriate and potentially very beneficial. But, I wouldn't do any more work without a deposit.

[tapwelder]

Joker,

There is a misconception that we get paid for the time we put into making something--reality is we get paid for the result we produce. You really should find out what somebody is willing or has to pay, rather than what you can do the job for.

You really should find out what other shops would charge for the items you produce. Then, bid near there price. Bidding really low does nobody any favors. You are in business to make profit not to cover the time you put into making something.

Your clients will come to expect a cheap price and not respect your time or product. You could even develop a reputation for working cheap. You could get tied up doing low paying jobs when more lucrative jobs come along.

You will eventually have to do a job with no down payment. Many ligit companies just don't give down payments. So don't make any hard and fast rules about always having a down payment.

For every post I have read here, I have a story about a contractor screwing a customer. Welding contractors, that is. I even know a guy who started a job for a church, they supplied the metal, he got to a certain point, then stopped. Later, he went back picked up their and used it on another job.

Do what you say your going to do, get it in writing -- can't control the actions of others. Can't be fearful of what might happen, either.

[imagineer]

One thing that might be a good trade is for the church to give you a bit of word-of-mouth advertising. That could easily make up for the lost income, if a few folks spread the word about how good a job you did and at "SUCH A REASONABLE PRICE!!!" A preacher could easily thank you in front of the congregation for your quality work...I would think a "thank you" is both appropriate and potentially very beneficial. But, I wouldn't do any more work without a deposit.

Thanks but I'm not a fabricator looking to drum up more business. Just a hobbiest with tools and skills.

I'm not a member, and will never be a member of the church. My personal opinion is all the members and the pastor are complete idiots and losers. I'll make no effort of any kind to contact them again.

[smithboy]

point very well taken.:D That's another good option.

[Pentawelder]

Hey, things can work out!!!! I just got a check for some work I did back in August last year. It was for a telcomm co that was taken over recently. I'd given up on getting paid but since the tools I welded went to my old colleagues and friends I wasn't too upset. Am I a pro since I welded for money?