Outlet and Plug dont match

[kanoa9321]

I received my Miller 210 and went to go plug it in my outlet and they have two different styles of outlets. Does anybody know if since I need an extension cord can I simply put a receptacle on one end that will match the welder plug and then on the other end just put a plug that will fit into the outlet? I just want to make sure that maybe these different plugs are rated for different things and they are made different so a dummy like me doesnt plug one into the other.

[halbritt]

I believe that's a NEMA 10-30 receptacle, you could confirm this by reading the numbers on the receptacle, which I can't quite make out in the photo. I also believe that the plug provided on the MM210 is a NEMA 6-50P.

Provided my assumptions are correct, you have a couple of options. You could replace the receptacle with a NEMA 6-50R, but you would have a 50A outlet on a 30A circuit which would cause no other problems except confusion and possibly a thrown breaker. You could rewire the outlet for 50A service, which would be optimal if you ever intend to run heavier loads off of it. Alternatively, you could simply build a cord to adapt between the two. The MM210 will run just fine on 30A service.

If none of this makes sense to you, then perhaps you should find a qualified electrician to give you some advice.

[MAC702]

Does anybody know if since I need an extension cord can I simply put a receptacle on one end that will match the welder plug and then on the other end just put a plug that will fit into the outlet? I just want to make sure that maybe these different plugs are rated for different things and they are made different so a dummy like me doesnt plug one into the other.
We do it all the time. Your machine can use the same wire and breaker that the 30A circuit is already on, so you're plenty good. Make the cord long enough to get anywhere you might work with it (out in driveway, etc.) #10 is plenty for the cord and is rated for the NEMA 6-50R receptacle for the welder plug. If you want a really long cord, let us know how long, and we'll let you know if you need to make it a bigger one.

[kanoa9321]

your correct its a NEMA 10-30 receptacle.

Im going to go the route of the extension cord with a a nema 6-50 receptacle on one end and a NEMA 10-30 plug on the other, cause if I converted the outlet to the 6-50 I dont think the lady of the house would like it cause then we wont have a dryer.

Thanks guys just wanted to make sure it would be ok cause im no electrician.

:)

[MAC702]

Just follow the instructions (yeah, cord caps come with instructions...) on how much jacket and how much insulation to strip (those are two different things.)

Be very careful when cutting the jacket not to nick the insulation on the wires underneath. It's best to cut almost through the jacket and then bend the cable to break it through, sometimes even with resting your knife on the cut while you do so. I see more improperly made extension cords than any other safety hazard on most jobsites.

[kanoa9321]

Jacket is what surrounds all 3 wires and insulation is what surrounds each individual wire correct?

Thanks for the heads up

[MAC702]

Jacket is what surrounds all 3 wires and insulation is what surrounds each individual wire correct?

Thanks for the heads up
Yep! Take your time; do it right. You got the right attitude already, which is the best part.

[Sandy]

your correct its a NEMA 10-30 receptacle.

Im going to go the route of the extension cord with a a nema 6-50 receptacle on one end and a NEMA 10-30 plug on the other, cause if I converted the outlet to the 6-50 I dont think the lady of the house would like it cause then we wont have a dryer.

Thanks guys just wanted to make sure it would be ok cause im no electrician.

:)

Good grief, yes make sure not to make things overly difficult for the lady of the house. Otherwise you just might end up doing your own or wearing wet levies to work.. :D

Could I suggest that while your at it maybe taking a look at the existing to verify that it was wired with the right sized wire to start with? Never know. Probably but you always feel better after and easy check. Also verify that the lugs are good and tight and especially the wall/stud mounting is good and solid. Go to plugging and uplugging on some of these and you can find out soon enough that they weren't mounted solid enough for repetitive use like that. Some of the larger plugs and recepticles can be sorta dry-tight-ornery. Maybe a little no-ox right off the get go.

Just some thoughts.

Have fun.

[kanoa9321]

ok I will double check everything. The plug is secure cause I have some tools from overseas that I use that plug for so it gets plugged in and out quite frequently.

With all your guys help I will be able to become an electrician in no time.

Hey, if I dont have dry clotes to go to work its just an excuse to call in sick and play with my toys. :D

[NnF]

Well here is my 2 cents...

First I am not an electrician, but if I was doing the hook up I would run a circuit per the Welder current draw, not the fact that it will run on 30 amps but the units calls for 50 amps.

By running the Welder on a circuit below the rated amperage, the welder may perform well but not to it potential. When asked to do a little more it may start to overheat and not perform well and may even shorten the life of the Welder.

On the other hand if you wire up a 50 amp circuit (if that is what the unit calls for) the welder will perform well and live long and prosper.

I am not trying to say what is right or wrong just what I would do.

Luck with the Welder, it is a great unit, the same one I have on a 50 amp circuit wired for 60 amps.

Do it right the first time and you won't have to do it again.

[MAC702]

the units calls for 50 amps.

Do it right the first time and you won't have to do it again.
Where do you get that the unit calls for 50A???

Why are you implying the OP isn't doing it right the first time?

[halbritt]

Well here is my 2 cents...

First I am not an electrician, but if I was doing the hook up I would run a circuit per the Welder current draw, not the fact that it will run on 30 amps but the units calls for 50 amps.

By running the Welder on a circuit below the rated amperage, the welder may perform well but not to it potential. When asked to do a little more it may start to overheat and not perform well and may even shorten the life of the Welder.

On the other hand if you wire up a 50 amp circuit (if that is what the unit calls for) the welder will perform well and live long and prosper.

I am not trying to say what is right or wrong just what I would do.

Luck with the Welder, it is a great unit, the same one I have on a 50 amp circuit wired for 60 amps.

Do it right the first time and you won't have to do it again.

How can you support your contention that running a welder on an underrated circuit could shorten the life of the welder? What possible electrical phenomena could cause this? There is nothing in the realm of knowledge that I possess that could possibly support your contention. Admittedly, my knowledge is limited, so I would very much like to know if there's something that I'm missing.

As I understand it, exceeding the capacity of a circuit generally has a couple of results. A breaker is usually tripped if the circuit is properly engineered. There's also the possibility that wire heating could occur and eventually cause a fire which would certainly damage a welder, I suppose so that should definitely be avoided.

Regardless of the outcome of this debate, the fact still remains that according to Miller an MM210 won't draw more than 30A at 240VAC. The most recent manual for this particular welder states that the welder will draw 27-28A at rated output on 230VAC. I assume that's a nominal designation of the type of circuit, but it's possible that the welder would draw even less current at 240VAC and change, which is more common for residential single-phase service.

[kanoa9321]

I'm no electrician but if the welder is trying to draw more amps its not going to run at lower amps it will just trip the circuit.

[kanoa9321]

OK back again

I got my plug and receptacle for my cord. But on the receptacle for the welder plug it says the top pin is green and on the dryer plug it says the top pin is white. Is this just because they are rated for different amps?

When I join the wires would I just match the colors to the same positions of the plugs reguardless of the colors? Would I just do like the two pictures below and put 1 to 1, 2 to 2, and 3 to 3.

Hope you can understand what Im saying. Thanks

[Sandy]

Because that 10-30 is for a dryer there is going to be a little terminolgy clash. Because of the nature of operation of many/most dryers they will list the L shaped lug as white which in this case would be a common nuetral/ground. Make sense?? :) The other two lugs (straight ones) would be listed as X and Y but in essence two hots.

The wiring for the 6-50 plug would have the round as ground, with no nuetral/common needed. Ground only for true 230 only type operation. The other two lugs (straight blades) would also two hots but might be of a black and white if you bought XX/2 with ground, or a black and red in some rare cases, so on.

Lot of blather, but yes you would be fine with 1 to 1, 2 to 2, and 3 to 3 altho I'm not big on numbering schemes or "up-down" talk on message boards because of so much room for error. :) Basically, for your application, think round is ground and L is ground (in this case only). The straights are hots.

Or hang in there for mac or one of the other guys who talks straighter than I think I talk.

[MAC702]

Okay, excellent question. I wasn't going to address it because I didn't want to confuse you, but well, it happened anyway!

Okay, older dryer receptacles have two hots and a NEUTRAL. The ground was bonded to the neutral. Newer dryer installations are no longer allowed to do this.

Now, you will find that in the main panel, your grounds and neutrals are bonded here also. This is why it's no big deal to wire your welder's ground to your dryer receptacle's neutral.

Now the opposite would be a different story. Never put a neutral load on a ground system.

So put your green welder wire on the white pole of the dryer receptacle.

[kanoa9321]

ok thanks,
I thought thats what it would be and knew that the two straits were the two hots but I didnt just want to go on common sense.


if I dont respond back within a few days then you know I did something wrong :D

[Rojodiablo]

ok thanks,
I thought thats what it would be and knew that the two straits were the two hots but I didnt just want to go on common sense.


if I dont respond back within a few days then you know I did something wrong :D
****, it's an easy fix. Just grind down the tabs and bend them into the shape you need them!!!:dizzy: :eek:

[kanoa9321]

if my weleder was up and running I could weld new pins in the right place. Dammit knew I got the welder for a reason


I opened the actual socekt of the dryer outlet on the wall and their were a black, red, white, and bare copper. The white and bare copper were both connected to the L plug. Does this change anything or is that how it is supposed to be?


"Ground only for true 230 only type operation" does that mean that mean that if I tried to run the welder and full potential I would nead a real ground or am I just confusng things more.


Thanks alot for your help guys

[Rojodiablo]

if my weleder was up and running I could weld new pins in the right place. Dammit knew I got the welder for a reason


I opened the actual socekt of the dryer outlet on the wall and their were a black, red, white, and bare copper. The white and bare copper were both connected to the L plug. Does this change anything or is that how it is supposed to be?


"Ground only for true 230 only type operation" does that mean that mean that if I tried to run the welder and full potential I would nead a real ground or am I just confusng things more.


Thanks alot for your help guysThat is how it is supposed to be. Neutral/ ground are the same animals. The black lead and the red lead are 120v ea. from the 2 legs of your house power. 120x2=240vac. Just be sure the hot leads and ground leads meet up in the right place, and you are fine.

[Sandy]

"Ground only for true 230 only type operation" does that mean that mean that if I tried to run the welder and full potential I would nead a real ground or am I just confusng things more.

Don''t confuse things right now ;) . The difference comes in to play on things other than your welder such as dryers and/or electric ranges in the household world are examples. For your welder adapter cord do the two hots and the round lug to the L lug for now. :)


I opened the actual socekt of the dryer outlet on the wall and their were a black, red, white, and bare copper. The white and bare copper were both connected to the L plug. Does this change anything or is that how it is supposed to be?

Well someone did some things that didn't need done but-------------it's done. Without looking into the main panel I'd say your wiring is good to go for a more modern dryer receptacle if you'd like someday. But again for today the adapter cord for the welder, eh??? :)

[MAC702]

That is how it is supposed to be. Neutral/ ground are the same animals.
ONLY AT THE MAIN PANEL (service entrance.) There are some older preexisting exceptions, like the case ground of an older dryer installation, which is bonded to neutral. This still does not mean that they are the same thing, technically.

I've seen where people have installed grounding receptacles where older two-prong receptacles used to be and they just tied the ground to the neutral because they thought the same way you said phrased it, that they are doing the same thing. THIS IS UNSAFE.

Sorry to jump at your post, but it is very important that people know that neutrals and grounds ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

[MAC702]

I opened the actual socekt of the dryer outlet on the wall and their were a black, red, white, and bare copper. The white and bare copper were both connected to the L plug. Does this change anything or is that how it is supposed to be?
Your existing installation is illegal. Someone replaced the proper 4-prong NEMA 14-30R receptacle with the older style rather than replace the cord on their dryer, which the Code requires.

You should replace it with the proper 4-prong NEMA 14-30R receptacle and then replace the cord on your dryer to the same NEMA 14-30P plug. This will also require you to remove the bonding strap on the case of the dryer that bonds its ground to the neutral.

Now, you instead need a NEMA 14-30P on your welder's adapter. If you use the type of plug that you assemble yourself, you don't even need to install the central straight neutral prong, just the two hots on the outside and the ground on the top.

[kanoa9321]

I wired up my adapter and everything works. Welder, House, and I are all alive and well.


Thanks for your help guys. :drinkup:

[Rojodiablo]

ONLY AT THE MAIN PANEL (service entrance.) There are some older preexisting exceptions, like the case ground of an older dryer installation, which is bonded to neutral. This still does not mean that they are the same thing, technically.

I've seen where people have installed grounding receptacles where older two-prong receptacles used to be and they just tied the ground to the neutral because they thought the same way you said phrased it, that they are doing the same thing. THIS IS UNSAFE.

Sorry to jump at your post, but it is very important that people know that neutrals and grounds ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
Well, look at it from my point of view. I remodel houses, and some light commercial. And many of the receptacles are set in metal boxes with either old romex, or conduit. And most have a 16ga ground wire attached to the box. Only beef, about 70% of those grounds do not work anymore, as the houses were repiped. So when in doubt, I loop from the neutral to the ground to the box. And I really don't care about the color of the wire going into the ground bar, as ther is a bare, a green, a white, and every so often, some scary fool runs a yellow for a neutral/ ground. They like to shock me, or try to. For the 30A dryer leads here, they are all 3 prong. SO wether its' a ground or a neutral, all I really worry about is that this guy doesn't put a red or black on it!!!;) But it is nice to see that many guys here really do understand electricity, and are always helpful. That is why Weldingweb is a great site!!!:drinkup:

[MAC702]

many of the receptacles are set in metal boxes with either old romex, or conduit. And most have a 16ga ground wire attached to the box. Only beef, about 70% of those grounds do not work anymore, as the houses were repiped. So when in doubt, I loop from the neutral to the ground to the box.
At the main panel it is common for whites and ground (bare/green) to be on the same buss, so no problem there.

BUT, PLEASE UNDERSTAND that doing this at the receptacle boxes IS VERY DANGEROUS. I shudder thinking about it. The whites are the return conductor carrying the current back to the main panel. To bond these to the questionable grounds at remote junction boxes puts the external metal that has a failed ground at an electrical potential above the earth or other objects nearby that may be grounded. If I am correctly understanding what you've done, this could electrocute (as in murder) someone who touches one of your boxes (that has a failed ground bonded to the white CONDUCTOR) and something that really IS grounded. Their only protection is the (hopefully) far less resistance in following the wire as opposed to going through their body. While it so far seems obvious you do not understand the real dangers involved here, a judge would hold you responsible. You really do have an obligation to fix these situations that you know of, especially if you made them that way.

When there is no working ground system, it is illegal to install grounded receptacles with the exception of GFCI-protected circuits, which must also be labeled "No Equipment Ground."

Again, in normal receptacles, and all modern receptacles, it is illegal AND potentially DEADLY to bond the grounds/boxes to the white return conductor.

Others, please let me know if this makes sense to a layman. NOT that I am calling Rojodiablo a layman, but I am trying to be as clear as possible about the dangers involved.

[BobC]

...Others, please let me know if this makes sense to a layman. NOT that I am calling Rojodiablo a layman, but I am trying to be as clear as possible about the dangers involved.


I agree with you MAC.

I don’t know if I would be considered a “Layman”. My job involves welder repair, so I have a pretty good knowledge of electricity, but I am not an electrician.

I have always known that connecting the ground and neutral leads together was forbidden by the NEC, except at the main service entrance, which is the main breaker panel in most modern homes and businesses, and possibly one or two other special situations.


I’ll try to explain one dangerous scenario.

At first it would seem that there would not be a problem connecting the neutral to the ground since the neutral is already connected to ground at the service entrance. Indeed, as long as that neutral wire maintains a good solid connection between the receptacle and the service entrance, the electrical current will take the path of least resistance, and will flow through the neutral wire back to the service entrance. A person could touch the case of a device plugged into that receptacle and probably not get a shock, even though the case has been connected to the live circuit components by the well intended, but illegal connection between the ground terminal and neutral.

Great danger exists if a connection would fail in the neutral wire. In this case the current could no longer flow through that path, and will seek another route. In this situation, the current will now flow through the circuitry of the device, (grinder, drill, etc.) and find that connection between the neutral terminal and the grounding terminal. Via this connection the current can pass through the grounding pin in the plug of the device and electrify the housing. If the receptacle has a metal cover, it also would become electrically live. If the person touching that device is grounded, he may just get a shock, if he’s lucky. If he’s unlucky, that shock could cause his heart to go into fibrillation. Without immediate help, he’s dead.

[MAC702]

Yes, that's the situation I'm describing. And they aren't all that rare, either. Often, when someone has a receptacle circuit that starts browning-out, or goes out (and not from a GFCI) the next most often reason is a broken white return wire (often called a neutral (though that term is really just for multi-wire circuits.)

Rojodiablo, you have created many very dangerous situations that are timebombs. Do you have any way to go and fix the situations you created?

a NO-GROUND SYSTEM is FAR SAFER than what you've installed.

[Rojodiablo]

Yes, that's the situation I'm describing. And they aren't all that rare, either. Often, when someone has a receptacle circuit that starts browning-out, or goes out (and not from a GFCI) the next most often reason is a broken white return wire (often called a neutral (though that term is really just for multi-wire circuits.)

Rojodiablo, you have created many very dangerous situations that are timebombs. Do you have any way to go and fix the situations you created?

a NO-GROUND SYSTEM is FAR SAFER than what you've installed.
It's not like every receptacle I see is like this. And some of these are completely inaccessible to run a dedicated ground to. When we can, we connect ground leads under the houses, sometimes chasing this crap down forever to no avail. So when the INSPECTOR looks at it, and tells me to loop the receptacle ground to the neutral(nudge nudge/wink wink) so he can verify the receptacle, it is done. Yeah, I'll get right on this.:laugh:We don't have ground issues with boxes run in conduit. I lug the ground to the box, which solves my problems. The only ones that are ever an issue are the old romex type, which is a single box. So it's not like it is looped to an entire system.

[MAC702]

This is sad. Instead of turning in the inspector, you laugh at the illegal danger the two of you are creating. Inspectors aren't gods. I've been a construction inspector for the federal government. I know lots of inspectors. We got jobs all the time that fell outside our areas of expertise. They do their best, but you can't say something is safe just because an inspector okay'd it. You do know that, right?

AND THEN you get on the Internet and tell other people that grounds and neutrals are the same thing with no further caveat.

A broken return wire in the wrong box that you wired can kill someone. It will energize the box and cover, even the case of an appliance. Touching it and, say, a water pipe, would be all it took. I'm an electrician. I've seen these situations. I've personally measured 120V between the case of a refrigerator and the case of a range. Care to guess how it happened?

I've got nothing against you personally, Rojodiablo. But I sure hope you'll come to understand that not only should you not give electrical advice (just like I don't give plumbing advice) but that what electrical work you have done is potentially deadly and should be corrected, inspected or not. While your laughing smilie indicates you have no intention of doing so, perhaps you'll at least think of this next time.

[MAC702]

It's not like every receptacle I see is like this. And some of these are completely inaccessible to run a dedicated ground to.
This happens all the time. The legal, proper, established procedure is to reinstall a 2-prong receptacle (they still sell brand new ones for this purpose,) or a GFCI receptacle, using the supplied "No Equipment Ground" label.