Censorship: report and question

[Bob at WeldingMag]

Friends,

A few community members have raised questions about censorship at the forum; if a few people mention it, I assume there are still others who are thinking about it.

I want to give a brief report on censorship here, and then ask all of you a question about.

The report
Here are the actions we have taken in the last 4 weeks that involve removing content placed here by community members:

*Deleted 2 messages (from the same user) that were in direct violation of our solicitation policy. These messages came from a vendor trying to sell product in the equipment forum and in the marketplace forum -- which is specifically reserved for individuals rather than product vendors. A private message was sent to the individual who placed these messages, citing the specific clause in the user agreement that was violated. The individual was invited to continue contributing within the parameters of the user agreement.

*Deleted an avatar that we deemed to be in violation of the "sexual content" section of the user agreement. The user was notified via private message and was invited to continue contributing and to replace the avatar with an image within the parameters of the user agreement.

*Deleted a message that contained language that we deemed to be in violation of the user agreement section on "abusive/hateful/profane language. As I am writing this, I am not aware if the user was notified via private message.

*Prevented one member from posting further content until he explained specific language that was being repeated in multiple messages; while the language was unclear in its intent, several members felt that it was objectionable. We did not delete the content, and we did not ask the member to leave the forum. We did, however, tell the member via private message that he would not be able to post further messages until he explained to us the meaning of this language. He never responded.

If anyone has questions about these or any other perceived actions, please don't hesitate to ask. We are working to maintain a very light hand and -- while we maintain the right to proactively manage these issues -- so far we have only taken action when community members have sought us out. I think it's a credit to this entire community that there have been so few issues.

Now the question:
We have an automated agent that has been set to identify certain objectionble words and replace them with ****. I'm sure most of you have noticed them. We are using this agent because we believe it creates an environment that is most comfortable for the widest range of people who want to use this forum.
Some individuals have figured out how to work around the automated agent (it's not that hard to do). And the question has been raised whether we should have any kind of automated editing.

With that as background, we're interested in what you think about it. Please let me know your opinions on the masking of the words that are most often considered objectionable.

Thank you.

[MAC702]

My PERSONAL view is that if you have a potty-mouth, don't hide it.

It would be nice if it wasn't here, BUT I'll face the fact that's it's part of the depraved world we now live in. I hear it everyday anyway.

But someone that writes "fu(k" and the like, to avoid the censors (or even f***,) isn't really using a euphamism, they're pretty much cussing. We all know what word pops into our heads. Why bother hiding behind asterisks?

It's not like it's an uncontrollable burst, either. We have plenty of time while writing to clean up our language.

Now, don't take offense or call me a sissy. Our personal viewpoints are being solicited in this thread. That's mine. Feel free to have yours.

[tessdad]

I for one am in total agreement with your current policy.
I tend to talk in a most vulgar way when I am with friends, but then I know my audience. I do not subject those who might not want to deal with my s#$t, to have to deal with it.
I think to "clean up" what might be found objectionable to some is better than "letting it all fly"

[scott brunsdon]

There are probably only a couple of words that some people may find really objectionable. Of course, I can't write down what they are. Maybe I should describe the anatomical bits and acts they reference?
I laughed when I wrote something in the off topic area and mentioned Mr Cheney. His first name came up as ****.
There is some colourful language that gets used around work places (not to mention on TV) and people seem to cope with that.
We're all grown ups, and if people get offended, they can speak (write) up and say so.
I find with most mature forums that they become self moderating after a while.
Of course, we over here find it odd that many Americans can get upset about swearing and nudity, but not violence.
I find violence an expression of depravity, not swearing.
I'd better stop now before I get 'moderated'.
Scott
PS Love that term: potty-mouth.

[Bob at WeldingMag]

I laughed when I wrote something in the off topic area and mentioned Mr Cheney. His first name came up as ****.


Good point, Scott. The automated masking agent is very flexible and at the very least we can clean up some of the sillier occurrences.

On the whole, I very much agree with your sentiments; we're grownups and we can all take it. As I'm fond of saying here in the States, the U.S. Constitution promises to protect us from a lot of things, but it never promises to protect us from being offended.

Still, I want WeldingWeb to be as welcoming as possible. While the masking may not fool anyone, it does show that we care enough to soften the impact.

Again, just my opinion -- which isn't any better than anyone else's.

Anyone else?

[lotechman]

I like it the way it is. The soft action of editing and the abilty to sidestep it doesn't bother me. I have worked around enough ironworkers and boilermakers that nothing shocks me. Others who visit this site might not be as "experienced".

[scott brunsdon]

Still, I want WeldingWeb to be as welcoming as possible

It's the members who make this site so welcoming, Bob.

There was a post recently where somebody asked another poster to tone down the language. That sort of member moderation can work well, provided it doesn't start an argument.

For the 'automated masking agent', maybe we need to compile a list of offensive words/terms? That would be fun.

I'll kick it off with the only ones that people would have a real problem with:

fu(k (and derivatives of it)
(unt
$hit

Any others?

Of course, the term I find really offensive is 'collateral damage'.

'Friendly fire' is probably a borderline one - the irony saves it.

Then of course there is 'republican'.

And now I promise I won't post anymore in this thread till it's daytime in the US - I've got some work to do. So Moderators, you can relax and go to bed now. Nighty night.

Scott

[TxRedneck]

I speak for myself and only myself, I feel that while I couldnt care less either way how its done, I understand the feeling of some. I personally believe with the exception of D*ck whom we all know can be an identificator for a number of folks, especially the guy whose parents named him after grandpa Richard. Anyway, I feel in most cases that altering the word tends to show more that an individual is making a point to make sure others know what they are trying to say. It becomes one of them silly things I suppose. One man's right infringes on another, catch 22 either way. I will personally support either direction. Regardless of either, I would love to see D*ck removed from the list. Just because I like to chat it up with Mr Brunsdon on the topic of Mr. Chainy and Mr. Shrub. Scott takes it all real well. Its nice to see how folks from other walks of life feel about us yanks. I see nothing wrong with what Ive done, I have always shown respect for other man's way of doing it, as long as they do it outside of my territory.

[DDA52]

My two cents......This site is so much improved from its previous incarnation.... I think it is working as-is. At least there is a reason ....a legitimate reason for the censorship. As far as I am concerned, this site has become a very good one. A far cry from where it was.:drinkup: The light hand seems to be working.

[MAC702]

this site has become a very good one. A far cry from where it was.:drinkup: The light hand seems to be working.
I concur. I'd never thought I'd want to come back. Glad the Redneck talked me into it.

[welder.man]

Having worked in workshops all my life and have heard most things, I tend to let go with a few expletives from time to time but I don't feel the need to type them. I don't mind the censorship of certain posts.

I personally think very highly of this site and am glad to be part of it, I am here to learn and maybe share a little knowledge if I can.


Simon
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~abba/index.html

[OZBoilermaker]

Its easy to let slip with an expletive when talking at work ! But it takes a bit of effort to actually type it into your sentences . i`m sure there are words you can use that will be a good replacement to get your point across, we`ll know what your talking about !

[mla2ofus]

I can probably talk as "trashy" as anyone else, but I was taught to do it at the proper time and place. If I sense that "colorful language" will offend someone else,I refrain from it. Conversing on the web is not the same as face to face to me and I don't know who else will read my words besides who I'm addressing, therefore I see no need to express myself in more colorful language.
I agree with the light censorship. OZBoilermaker is right that it takes some effort to type these into your sentences, so if someone feels the need to dance around the censorship to express themselves then so be it. They also need to be aware they are dancing on a thin line, so don't be upset if they cross it and get spanked for it.
My $.02,
Mike
Perhaps the use of this li' fella would be a good compromise :realmad:

[sunpowered]

I think your doing a great job BOB,I am almost sure who the salesman is or was, as there have been no posts from same said salesman since the report.Thanks from sunnyAZ:D

[imagineer]

Censorship, in any form, needs to be handled with caution. It is a wide bladed sword and once swung, the impact may extend past the intended target. Looking beyond the 7 words [which are now only 5] you can’t say on television or radio (George Carlin), there are so many other areas now where persons can, if they choose, be offended by an otherwise innocent statement.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask users to substitute key vowels with an asterisk as a gesture of their understanding of the guidelines of this and other public web forums.

What I don’t agree with are the members using the forum, replying back to a post by someone else and suggesting they alter the language used. The structure of the forum has moderators in place to do that job. If a member has taken personal offence to something that was posted, they should PM the moderator and complain. Using the forum posts and private messages to lecture other persons about your personal values only will demonstrate your arrogance.

[spuddown]

I work with pilebucks and iron workers and am no saint when it comes to colorful lanquage, but it suprises me when I read it in these forums. Its easy to let one slip now and then at work but I can't see the point of going to the trouble of typing it out. I've never been real big on using foul language around strangers, but it doesn't really bother me either, I just think there are other words.
I just went back and reread a few posts on this subject and seem to be repeating what has already been expressed, I don't have a problem with other members asking someone to tone it down, thats just part of the community. As far as salesman posting here, with what I've seen here and other sites the members usually are pretty indignant with them before the moderators get to them. It all seems to be working out.
Oh and one more thing, I'm sure that sissy MAC702 is glad he came back, he just won my welding helmet!:cry: .........;) :D :D :D

[Sandy]

I can handle whatever comes down the pipe. I fact I am totally ingnorant of any of the deletions or issues being discussed. Simple minds like mine lead a simple life. It's nice.

As far as cussing I do much more than most in my own life. However not being completely aware of who all may be reading here, out of respect for them, I try to keep it to a minimum and feel that this site probably should be directed as such.

[gnm109]

It's a welding forum. why is it necessary to curse at all?

[smithboy]

Well...Like Chris, I am speaking just for myself here.

I am not offended by much at all when it comes to language. Words are just words and it's not the letters arranged in a particular order that offends, it's how they are used. Maybe like Imagineer, George Carlin helped me get over any hangup I might have had:D . The real issue when it comes to the censorship that has occured lately on a site like this, it seems to me, is how broad a public do we want to reach, include, and serve.

My wife works in a Georgia highschool that places fairly strict restrictions web browsing...a few choice words, and the filter automatically culls they webpage from those her students are able to visit. All the schools in GA are required to have some type of protection like this. Some homes use similar technology. Furthermore, some of our members are pretty young...not that they probably don't know far more vulgarities than we do, but I would hate to think that here is where they saw it first.

The type of "censoring" that is being discussed here is for very specific infractions and they are already outlined in the user agreement. Clearly, the intent of the rules is not to curb the flow of ideas, expression of opinions, or the occasional telling of a crude (but funny) joke. It's just setting a few small boundaries on sexually explicit subject matter and abusive language, etc., which are there to increase the appeal of the site, not to throw a wet blanket on spirited discussion. I am comfortable with the rules.

GNM109, is right; however, I am guilty as anyone else of using foul language...and of sidestepping the built-in controls by using creative spelling or symbols in 4-letter words...So if there is finger-pointing, it can start with me, I guess. However, going forward, I will keep this discussion in mind when I post and when I read posts.

Personally, I think the fact that Bob has opened this up for discussion is a real credit to him and his organization and he should be commended for putting this out there...laying all the cards on the table, so to speak and engaging folks in a thoughtful deliberation. This is a sensitive issue (especially here) and publically dealing with it will hopefully be a lot more constructive and keep the site attractive to all our members.

[MAC702]

Oh and one more thing, I'm sure that sissy MAC702 is glad he came back, he just won my welding helmet!:cry: .........;) :D :D :D
:D :D :D Bite me.

There was only one thing that "irritated" me (not really) about that one salesman's posts that got deleted. I was the one that found them first and had some real fun with him in my reply. It all got deleted before most of you got to read it.:(

[DDA52]

Mac, next time you harangue a sales type, be sure to save it to share with the class. I quite enjoyed your ripping of the Cromagnon Rep on Hobart.:D :D :D :drinkup: At least it is entertaining.;)

[spuddown]

:D :D :D Bite me.

Hey! Hey! Hey! now thats not very friendly.:D


There was only one thing that "irritated" me (not really) about that one salesman's posts that got deleted. I was the one that found them first and had some real fun with him in my reply. It all got deleted before most of you got to read it.:(

I have a problem with censorship when it gets done before I get to read it. I'm just a nosey type guy and it drives me nuts not knowing what everyone is talking about. I travel on jobs quite a bit and don't have internet access everywhere, all the good stuff happens when I"m gone.:cry:

[Sober_Pollock]

First Let me say I'm a new member, glad I found this forum, and that part of the reason I joined is THIS THREAD.

I don't care what I see on the screen in front of me, I'll not be offended.

I don't care if you automatically edit profanity out or not.

What I do care about is that as I post, I have no control over who is reading it on the other end, it could be someones unsupervised child, it could be sutents in school, or, it could even be someone who I might ask for a job next week.

So I'm carefull and thoughtfull about what I post.

This thread demonstrates that there are people here who care about this forum so, I'm In.

Now then.....If you could only find a way to automatically corect my spelling and grammar, we'd be all set!

[alan waters]

:D :D :D Bite me.

There was only one thing that "irritated" me (not really) about that one salesman's posts that got deleted. I was the one that found them first and had some real fun with him in my reply. It all got deleted before most of you got to read it.:(
I'm not sure what that means. Is this something you would say to your christian belivers?

[Bob at WeldingMag]

Thank you all for your thoughful comments.

Based on what I've heard so far, we're going to keep the automated masking function active at this point. We have, however, rationalized the list of words that will get edited. So you can now use Vice President Cheney's first name (if you must).

Again, let's make no pretense that this system can or will stop people who really want to use bad language; they'll get around it easily enough. It merely represents a minimum level of enforced civility to assure WeldingWeb continues to be an inviting place for everyone.

Management of WeldingWeb still maintains the right to edit/delete comments that we deem offensive/obscene/objectionable as outlined in the User Agreement. It will continue to be our intent to contact individuals involved by private message when this takes place.

We will manage such issues quietly and privately out of consideration for the individuals involved. Don't mistake this approach for secrecy. By now you should know: That's not how we work.

If anyone ever has a question or hears rumors about censorship of content, please let us know. You'll get a direct answer. In fact, it was just such a question that got this entire thread started.

While we've made a decision for now about the level of automated masking that will be used, I don't ever consider the issue to be closed. The standards we are applying have been established by the community -- not by the management team. As those standards evolve, we will reopen this kind of dialogue at any time.

Finally, I'm going to leave this thread open for a couple more days for comment, and then I'm going to lock it. That way, new questions will require new threads. I don't want new issues to get lost or confused with this thread as time passes.

Again, thank you all for your concern and for making WeldingWeb such a good community.

[spuddown]

I need some sort of program on my computer so if I have my foot in my mouth it disables my submit button.:help:

[halbritt]

Well, I suppose I'm late to the argument, but I'm going to contribute my two cents anyway.

I like to stay away from the term, "censorship" which has different implications. This is a privately owned forum in which the owners can permit or omit any language they like. With that said, I'm happy with the actions that have been taken and am especially pleased to see a summary of those actions. I also appreciate the level of discretion exercised in presenting the summary.

I would prefer not to have the word-masking. I don't really believe that anyone needs to be protected from profanity and if a contributor is too off-color or explicit, they can be moderated. I don't use expletives very often in day-to-day speech or when I'm writing a post, however I think we're all forgetting that dammit, sometimes they can be fun to use.

[TBill]

My 1/2 cent worth. I have a twelve year old nephew that has gotten a serious desire to be a welder. So much so that he took his stock show winnings and bought a Lincoln AC welder. It's his, not his Dad's. I don't think it would be right for him to be stopped from reading this forum due to adult language. But if the language got out of hand, his Dad would stop him. It's already happened on a fishing forum he used to read. Yes, I;m sure he hears the adult laguage at school, etc., but that doesn't make it acceptable.
Now, I'll go back to my corner.

Thanks for the forums, but please let's keep it clean.

[TEK]

I personally don't like censorship as I would like to believe that mature adults, well versed in our chosen language, can get the point across without resorting to grade-school theatrics. But I do live in this system and we do need controls for those that can not or will not control themselves. Leave it like it is---

[scott brunsdon]

These are the best reasons for the masking:

I have a twelve year old nephew that has gotten a serious desire to be a welder.......... I don't think it would be right for him to be stopped from reading this forum due to adult language. But if the language got out of hand, his Dad would stop him.

My wife works in a Georgia highschool that places fairly strict restrictions web browsing...a few choice words, and the filter automatically culls they webpage from those her students are able to visit

I'd forgotten about filters that might block site with content containng certain words.

Scott

[Bruce]

I'm enjoying the heck out of the forum in it's present form. Learning more every day. I'm a professional chef, more than 35 years in the trenches, like most trades, it's grueling work, language can get pretty "gritty", I know how to see around it/not hear it or hear what I want to hear!
Still A Grinder, :help: