Federal trial over

[Kim at WDF]

After four days of deliberations, the 10-person jury in the federal welding rod suit returned a verdict ruling on all counts against the plaintiff, Ernesto G. Solis, and for the industry defendants, Lincoln Electric Holdings Inc., Hobart Brothers Co., TDY Industries Inc. and ESAB Group.
The jury returned to the courtroom at about 11:30 a.m., Tuesday, June 26, and announced their decision.
Solis, a civilian maintenance worker at a Navy base in Corpus Christi, Texas, claimed that years of contact with fumes from welding rods exposed him to toxic manganese and caused an illness – manganism – with symptoms similar to Parkinson’s disease.
He claimed that warning labels on containers of welding rods were not sufficient to protect him from the illness.
The civil suit was heard in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Ohio in Cleveland, and was expected to set a a precedent for about 3,800 similar cases. All of the civil suits were consolidated before U.S. District Judge Kathleen O’Malley in Cleveland.

[DDA52]

Intresting. It would seem to reasonable people...if they exist anymore:dizzy: , that if the fumes were as bad as they are made out to be, we'd all be dropping like flies.:eek: ;) No doubt they are somewhat hazardous, but then so is tap water. Ever see a MSDS sheet on tap water? Scary!

[teknition]

After four days of deliberations, the 10-person jury in the federal welding rod suit returned a verdict ruling on all counts against the plaintiff, Ernesto G. Solis, and for the industry defendants, Lincoln Electric Holdings Inc., Hobart Brothers Co., TDY Industries Inc. and ESAB Group.
The jury returned to the courtroom at about 11:30 a.m., Tuesday, June 26, and announced their decision.
Solis, a civilian maintenance worker at a Navy base in Corpus Christi, Texas, claimed that years of contact with fumes from welding rods exposed him to toxic manganese and caused an illness – manganism – with symptoms similar to Parkinson’s disease.
He claimed that warning labels on containers of welding rods were not sufficient to protect him from the illness.
The civil suit was heard in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Ohio in Cleveland, and was expected to set a a precedent for about 3,800 similar cases. All of the civil suits were consolidated before U.S. District Judge Kathleen O’Malley in Cleveland.

Very interesting tidbit of imformation but you left out one part....what exactly was the verdict? :confused:

[MAC702]

...returned a verdict ruling on all counts against the plaintiff, Ernesto G. Solis, and for the industry defendants, Lincoln Electric Holdings Inc., Hobart Brothers Co., TDY Industries Inc. and ESAB Group.
The verdict is right there.

[teknition]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mac :)
I guess I should have read that a little slower the first,second,and third time.....lol :blush:

[hdwood]

...that if the fumes were as bad as they are made out to be, we'd all be dropping like flies.:eek: ;)

Manganism is the welders equivilant to Black Lung for miners. Not everyone will get it but there is a signifacant occupational hazard that could be drastically reduced if employers were required to provide fresh air supply to all welders. For more information http://www.manganese411.org/?src=googlead

[Roy Hodges]

I've worked in SOME of the nastiest places/conditions for smoke /fumes imaginable . &hottest. Try doing your thing in tight tanks in a submarine. Like air-arcing with a 1/2 inch carbon @900-1200 amps. usually i'd get a 4" diameter sucker hose in with me & possibly a good (approved two cartridge) respirator and i'd make out o k . With a sucker hose , many times , i didn't feel that I needed a fresh air hose , while sucking out the smoke &metal fumes , the fresh air comes in and replaces the bad air going out . (hope this all makes sense)

[gaustin]

The risk is there. Employers do not always stress respiratory protection. Smoke is bad. Lawyers are sometimes bad. Protection is available.

I like to weld!, I have respiratory problems, I did stupid things. All of the welding rods I have opened since 1980 have had a warning as far as I can remember.

[dstaley]

The risk is there. Employers do not always stress respiratory protection. Smoke is bad. Lawyers are sometimes bad. Protection is available.

I like to weld!, I have respiratory problems, I did stupid things. All of the welding rods I have opened since 1980 have had a warning as far as I can remember.

Where do I get the lawyer protection?

[gaustin]

Respiratory Protection is much more FOOL proof

[William McCormick Jr]

Manganism is the welders equivilant to Black Lung for miners. Not everyone will get it but there is a signifacant occupational hazard that could be drastically reduced if employers were required to provide fresh air supply to all welders. For more information http://www.manganese411.org/?src=googlead

It is not the metals that get you. Not even Mercury or Lead. It is the oxygen they pick up. Almost all poisoning is oxygen or chlorine based. Some people that work with these raw metals for their entire life think that we are a bunch of pansies for fearing metals. When they know it is only the burnt or reacted material that kills you.

If you were to sand down leaded paint for a while, you would have issues. But it is the oxygen that has attached itself to the lead that will get you. That is why radio active materials are so poisonous. Uranium can hold calmly and stably something like 16 or 18 oxygen atoms. Uranium nitrates formula used to be UO18 at one time.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[Teddco]

Cavi cautum imprudentia ab veritas.

[dbotos]

He claimed that warning labels on containers of welding rods were not sufficient to protect him from the illness.

Sheesh - everyone knows you're supposed to peel them off and stick them over your nose and mouth so you don't breathe in the fumes. How are they supposed to protect you if they're still stuck on the containers?! :D

[farmall]

It is not the metals that get you. Not even Mercury or Lead. It is the oxygen they pick up. Almost all poisoning is oxygen or chlorine based. Some people that work with these raw metals for their entire life think that we are a bunch of pansies for fearing metals. When they know it is only the burnt or reacted material that kills you.


Citation needed. Post links to back that assertion up.

[sandersd]

Citation needed. Post links to back that assertion up.

+1 I'm interested in hearing/reading associated documentation also...

[Oldiron2]

Posted by William above:
It is not the metals that get you. Not even Mercury or Lead. It is the oxygen they pick up. Almost all poisoning is oxygen or chlorine based. Some people that work with these raw metals for their entire life think that we are a bunch of pansies for fearing metals. When they know it is only the burnt or reacted material that kills you.

If you were to sand down leaded paint for a while, you would have issues. But it is the oxygen that has attached itself to the lead that will get you. That is why radio active materials are so poisonous. Uranium can hold calmly and stably something like 16 or 18 oxygen atoms. Uranium nitrates formula used to be UO18 at one time.

Sincerely,


William McCormick


William, you could make an easier fortune (easier than welding, that is) by writing comic books. There are soooo many people who would believe and enjoy what you write, because they have no scientific background, no common sense, no experience, and mostly...because they really love believing the most ridiculous, the most outlandish, the most unbelievable stories...keep it up, 'cause it's fun to have a laugh sometimes; even when here thinking about serious subjects, we all can use an occasional break.:laugh:

[ZTFab]

You guys realize that I banned Wacky Mac almost a month ago, right?

Hence the large "Banned" avatar I gave him as well.

No more unsubstantiated theories from Billy on this site.

However....we will be having an annual event in his honor.

We will be holding a raffle with great prizes like Tubes of Mercurochrome and Tin Foil Hats.

That will be followed be a welding/boat jumping contest and last but definitely not least will be the ARC ray and Silent Beam light show.

:D

[Rugar]

Not to mention that Wacky Macs post was over two years ago, and the original post on this thread was over 4 years ago.

[Oldiron2]

Posted by ZTFab:
You guys realize that I banned Wacky Mac almost a month ago, right?
I had forgotten, or missed that but think that William might still occasionally look at this site, if only to check on his past adversaries; anyway, that post was too good to not respond to, even if it was that old.
:cool2: Did you like my advice? :cool2:

Posted by Rugar:
Not to mention that Wacky Macs post was over two years ago, and the original post on this thread was over 4 years ago.
And you'll notice that I didn't revive it, but as I said above..........I couldn't resist......

[bert the welder]

Damn, his stuff was funny!!! But dangerous too I suppose.
Don't forget the arc staring contest.

You guys realize that I banned Wacky Mac almost a month ago, right?

Hence the large "Banned" avatar I gave him as well.

No more unsubstantiated theories from Billy on this site.

However....we will be having an annual event in his honor.

We will be holding a raffle with great prizes like Tubes of Mercurochrome and Tin Foil Hats.

That will be followed be a welding/boat jumping contest and last but definitely not least will be the ARC ray and Silent Beam light show.

:D

[Kevin Morin]

Back to the original post's focus;

The wood shop/carpenter trade guys just had a (vaguely) similar event where a court found that a guy who cut his hand/fingers on a table saw should have had 'saw stop' blade sensor on his saw.

Not that the fool who was awarded the bucks was wrong-no! the folks who made the saw were "wrong" in the eyes of the court- for not licensing the SawStop technology for their saw.

At question is the basic idea of personal responsibility being abandoned in favor of the tool maker has to use every possible means to make the tool safe- including buying patents from rivals if that patented device make the tool "safer".

So the idea is the courts get to decide what can be made and in what design - so Dewalt needs to get a saw stop mechanism for the Unisaw?

The trend toward making the tradesman into a [government protected] 'baby' who can't think or take responsibilities for his acts looks positive to a certain end of the political spectrum; but the costs to the overall workplace are going to be pretty high.

In the case of welding fumes being toxic it seems like a little common sense got through, there, but in the case of the carpenter who cut himself after removing the safety cover over the table saw blade common sense seems to be thrown out the window.

Like it was said above, tap water could be considered toxic, so does the SawStop case mean eventually we'll all be out of work because ALL the tools of the trade are potentially 'dangerous'?

Without too much strain everyone can see that the number of injuries from grinders say- that are used millions of hours a year are few in percentage. But, by taking one or two cuts or grinder related injuries to a court now everyone has to have the silly guards on the wheels or get a fine from the government's agencies.

We didn't have guards on the grinders in the 60's and 70's when I learned to use them and don't have, and didn't get, any injuries but that kind of common sense is not considered when these types of 'paid for being stupid' claims get in the courts.

[sorry, I didn't notice the soapbox/ranting icon? or I'd have pasted it here]

Cheers,
Kevin Morin

[Oldiron2]

Kevin is correct; this is where common sense and general education of the public are very important. Someone on the jury who understands mechanical things and the need for personal responsibility can often be the one who explains these things to the rest, unless they are all so dumb and spoon fed by the government that they are unable to understand or accept it; then even jury nullification doesn't work well, at least in civil trials where only a majority is needed to decide.

[RaptorDuner]

Today we mourn the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense.

Common Sense lived a long life but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He selflessly devoted his life to service in schools, hospitals, homes, factories and offices, helping folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness.

For decades, petty rules, silly laws and frivolous lawsuits held no power over Common Sense. He was credited with cultivating such valued lessons as to know when to come in out of the rain, the early bird gets the worm, and life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adults are in charge, not the kids), and it's okay to come in second.

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and the Technological Revolution, Common Sense survived cultural and educational trends including feminism, body piercing, whole language and "new math."

But his health declined when he became infected with the "If-it-only-helps-one-person-it's-worth-it" virus. In recent decades his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal regulation.

He watched in pain as good people became ruled by self-seeking lawyers and enlightened auditors. His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero tolerance policies, reports of six-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, a teen suspended for taking a swig of mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student. It declined even further when schools had to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student but cannot inform the parent when the female student is pregnant or wants an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost his will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, criminals received better treatment than victims, and federal judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional sports.

As the end neared, Common Sense drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments, regarding questionable regulations for asbestos, low flow toilets, "smart" guns, the nurturing of Prohibition Laws and mandatory air bags.

Finally when told that the homeowners association restricted exterior furniture only to that which enhanced property values, he breathed his last.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers: Rights, Tolerance and Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

[bert the welder]

I love it!!!! Pretty much sums up the new humanity. Argh.

Today we mourn the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense.

Common Sense lived a long life but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He selflessly devoted his life to service in schools, hospitals, homes, factories and offices, helping folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness.

For decades, petty rules, silly laws and frivolous lawsuits held no power over Common Sense. He was credited with cultivating such valued lessons as to know when to come in out of the rain, the early bird gets the worm, and life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adults are in charge, not the kids), and it's okay to come in second.

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, and the Technological Revolution, Common Sense survived cultural and educational trends including feminism, body piercing, whole language and "new math."

But his health declined when he became infected with the "If-it-only-helps-one-person-it's-worth-it" virus. In recent decades his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal regulation.

He watched in pain as good people became ruled by self-seeking lawyers and enlightened auditors. His health rapidly deteriorated when schools endlessly implemented zero tolerance policies, reports of six-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, a teen suspended for taking a swig of mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student. It declined even further when schools had to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student but cannot inform the parent when the female student is pregnant or wants an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost his will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, criminals received better treatment than victims, and federal judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional sports.

As the end neared, Common Sense drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments, regarding questionable regulations for asbestos, low flow toilets, "smart" guns, the nurturing of Prohibition Laws and mandatory air bags.

Finally when told that the homeowners association restricted exterior furniture only to that which enhanced property values, he breathed his last.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers: Rights, Tolerance and Whiner.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

[LawsonWeldingLLC]

http://facesoflawsuitabuse.org/
absolutely scary

[shovelon]

http://facesoflawsuitabuse.org/
absolutely scary

That IS scary!

[houseoffire]

Get rid of the lawyers and were good! LOL
YOU CAN'T TEACH COMMON SENSE!

[Insaneride]

Some 20 or so years ago, the San Ysidro massacre at Mcdonalds occured. Originally I had heard that the weldor had levels of Zinc high enough to kill the average human. He had somehow built a tolerance to it.

This is from wikipedia; it contradicts the Zinc but still may be of interest to any weldor's here.

In 1986, Etna Huberty, James's widow, also tried (unsuccessfully) to sue McDonald's and Babcock and Wilcox, his longtime former employer, in an Ohio state court for $5 million. She claimed that the massacre was triggered by the combined mixture of eating too many of their chicken nuggets and working around highly poisonous metals. She alleged that monosodium glutamate in the food, combined with the high levels of lead and cadmium in his body, induced delusions and uncontrollable rage. An autopsy did reveal high levels of the metals,[5] most likely built up from fumes inhaled during 14 years of welding. Autopsy results also revealed there were no drugs or alcohol in his system at the time of the killings. Etna Huberty died in 2003.[4]

The chicken nugget part is not really funny at all.

[Oldiron2]

Back to the original post's focus;

The wood shop/carpenter trade guys just had a (vaguely) similar event where a court found that a guy who cut his hand/fingers on a table saw should have had 'saw stop' blade sensor on his saw.

Not that the fool who was awarded the bucks was wrong-no! the folks who made the saw were "wrong" in the eyes of the court- for not licensing the SawStop technology for their saw.

At question is the basic idea of personal responsibility being abandoned in favor of the tool maker has to use every possible means to make the tool safe- including buying patents from rivals if that patented device make the tool "safer".

So the idea is the courts get to decide what can be made and in what design - so Dewalt needs to get a saw stop mechanism for the Unisaw?

The trend toward making the tradesman into a [government protected] 'baby' who can't think or take responsibilities for his acts looks positive to a certain end of the political spectrum; but the costs to the overall workplace are going to be pretty high.

In the case of welding fumes being toxic it seems like a little common sense got through, there, but in the case of the carpenter who cut himself after removing the safety cover over the table saw blade common sense seems to be thrown out the window.

Like it was said above, tap water could be considered toxic, so does the SawStop case mean eventually we'll all be out of work because ALL the tools of the trade are potentially 'dangerous'?

Without too much strain everyone can see that the number of injuries from grinders say- that are used millions of hours a year are few in percentage. But, by taking one or two cuts or grinder related injuries to a court now everyone has to have the silly guards on the wheels or get a fine from the government's agencies.

We didn't have guards on the grinders in the 60's and 70's when I learned to use them and don't have, and didn't get, any injuries but that kind of common sense is not considered when these types of 'paid for being stupid' claims get in the courts.

[sorry, I didn't notice the soapbox/ranting icon? or I'd have pasted it here]

Cheers,
Kevin Morin

What we need is something similar to the SawStop technology which, before the legislators are allowed to enact laws, keep people from breaking them and hurting themselves or others. When that happens, then maybe the verdict in Kevin's story would also be reasonable.


It's good to reread some of this stuff---I like remembering William once in awhile. :p :D

[Insaneride]

I didnt realize this post was so old when I added my red cent in. If the moderator thinks my original reply should be removed then please do so. I didnt realize Huberty was an embalmer before he became a weldor when I first replied. Maybee he was already weird before the Zinc and cadmium fumes got to him. May the victims R.I.P.

[Insaneride]

I guess I **** take it back now

[Insaneride]

BTW in the Huberty autopsy; "no drugs or alchol" what does that tell you?

never mind