Arc Quality . . . .

[Markopolo]

Maybe some of you old-timers can educate me.......
I read in books, sales pamphlets, (and on this site)...
that certain diesels give "Ideal Arcs", "Classic Arcs",...."The best
arc"....."a real pipeliner arc"......
My question is this: How can you tell a "good" arc from a "bad" one ? I hope this question doesn't cause some of you real
pro's to fall off your stool laughing...I'm sure YOU know the
answer....but I don't....and that's why I humbly ask ! :angel:

[cutter]

Marko,

As weldors go by any definition, I am just a spectator with no claims at all on that title
any more than a fan of the NFL can claim to be a player.
So I want to thank you for not only having the guts to ask the good basic questions
but for thinking to ask them in the first place.

[Markopolo]

Thanks cutter...that's very kind of you....

[Franz]

Yer just bound & determined to make me work, aren't ya Marko?
In today's machines, 99% of that information in the sales brochure is pure unadulterated bull****, and other than on some of the new inverter machines, DC arcs are pretty much equal across the board. McCracken's pipe weldors will disagree with that till the cows come home, but they're pipe weldors, and have their own opinion.
The absolute best DC arc would be derived from a battery, although that would be a major pain to control amps and voltage.
The next best DC comes from rotary DC generators, such as Lincoln Pipeliners, or verticles, and the 4-600 amp horizontals.
You put a scope on the output of one of those, and you have smooth DC with minor AC ripples from where the brush crosses bars on the armature.
Miller, to my knowledge, NEVER made a DC rotary. Miller's gas drives such as Roughneck, were a single phase AC alternator, fed into a bank of diodes, that rectified the current to DC.
Diode technology wasn't that good back in the 60s, so Miller machines suffered in DC arc quality.
The same rectification situation and problems apply to Linde, P&H, and the rest of rectifier machines.
Miller then went to building 3 phase AC alternators, and rectifyin that output for welding, and got a lot smoother DC arc.
A 3 phase rectifier does develope one hell of a cleaner DC right off the rectifier than you can get from single phase, but it still has ripples on it.

If you try lighting a Xenon lamp, such as a Skytracker Display floodlight, or the coaxial floodlight from a tank turret gun, you will not be able to light it from anything short of a 3 phase rectifier or a rotary DC generator.
Arc quality is very dependant on the purity of DC, and you can tell the difference.
I could hook a stinger to my P&H TIG machine, and another stinger to a Lincoln verticle, and you would be able to tell the difference without following the cable back.

[Markopolo]

Franz ! . . . Thanks a heap for the most wonderful reply !
You mentioned Lincoln Verticals.......I guess they don't make those any more, but I remember using one back in the 60's.
I'd love to have one of them puppies now !
2 dials: one for voltage, one for current....very simple !
(and if you wanted straight polarity, you actually had to change the leads on the machine) !
And, I believe (if i'm not mistaken), you are saying that motor-generator put's out better arc than something you plug
into the wall ? If that's the truth, I'm still saving for a
Pipeliner 200D......(girlfriend is ready to whack me with a
frying pan....."you don't need a $10,000 toy" :(

[cutter]

Originally posted by Markopolo
Franz ! . . .

<big snip>

......(girlfriend is ready to whack me with a
frying pan....."you don't need a $10,000 toy" :(

In that case, it might be best to not mention how much she costs you. With her. Ever.
But I wonder if she'd turn down a $10,000 diamond? :p

[Franz]

Well, you could just plot a course for Zip Code 14468.
I have a pipeliner with a rebuilt engine that has under 10 hours that is lookin for a new home, and for the restoration croud, I have a verticle that dates around 1950 I bought for parts, and never brokle down I really don't need.
I have 3 verticles that are running, one is an aircraft model, one of the initial TIG power units, and seriously doubt I'll ever wear another one out.

All propoganda aside, some of the new DC power units produce an arc that is so close to a generator you'll never notice the difference.

[Markopolo]

Franz....what model-year on the pipeliner ?

[boilerman]

i have to say ....you can't go wrong with a lincoln pipeliner....things are damn near indestructible and will handle anything you throw at them....of course i own 3 of them so i guess you could say i'm alittle prejudice

[Franz]

Mod SA-200-F-163
Code 6792
Ser# A-640465
1970 vintage I believe
Needs new tires on factory carrige

[Sberry]

I tend to agree with Franz that most people would have trouble elling wich machine was making the sparks without following the cable. My little Lincoln tombstone has a great arc and although its not adjustable like you would find on the SA200 I dont think I would be able to tell which was which without hearing the engine on the 200. They are being run manually so the amount of human error comes into play. I think most of it is psycological. Someone did this same test with covering the labels on the beer cans. The rate where anyone could tell the difference between the brands was really low, as low as a lucky guess. Then they switch them around and the rate was no better. JTM does this every day and his skill level is likely to be higher than the average operator and there is where it would make an interesting test.

[morpheus]

Hey S, how's the search for welding work coming for you these days ?

made any new stuff for your shop ?

[Sberry]

I havnt been looking lately. I had a couple delays pushing some others to get some work done that I needed to get on a big roll. I do some misc stuff but I may let it go untill fall again as I am moving another of my own jobs in that I have figured for 5 weeks and that will take me into spring and it then becomes a case of fighting fires on more than one front and as the great generals know,,, its best to concentrate the forces and spearhead an attack in one area. We build everyday and I dont always get the ambition to do pics,, that comes in spurts. We just finish a week of tractor repair for a customer and one of my own is done - a couple items in spring just before I put it out to work. I would like to build a couple pumping units and need to do some work to my forklift but they won see heavy use till Aug and will likely do them in July, good thing to occupy my mechanic while I am in berry harvest. Most of those are short term,, a week or so but going to do the Froggy Mack right now and want it turn key before ths **** hits the fan in Apr sometime. Here is one in the middle but finished now. It even shines in the dark,,, hahahaha

[JTMcC]

Pipeliners need, for the most part, three characteristics. enought push to run beads (the root pass), as high a stacking ability as possible, and a good amount of dig. Getting that stackability without giving up dig, is the hard part and where a lot of machines fall way short, and the reason that very few models of welding machine are in widespread use in the field.
Anyone that makes downhill pipe welds for 10 - 12 hours per day (and these guys are welders, not fitters, burners, laborers, painters, ect. ect. they are paid to weld only, others are hired for everything else) 6 - 7 days per week for any amount of time will quickly gain great insight into a machines ability to stack without burying slag. The whole point is to stack as much iron in those bevels as is humanly possible (without burying slag) on each and every pass.
Welders do many wierd and unusual things in search of that goal. They adjust OCV, roll the rack, install sliders, use magical combinations of brushes, buy red faces and short cabs, and go into the swamp to have the local voodoo mama throw a spell on the machine. None of this evidently matters to the run of the mill welder, but it's real and does make a difference to downhill pipe welders nonetheless.

regards,
JTMcC.

[trich]

I have used a pipeliner for 30 years and also attended Lincoln Electric welding school so I am partial to all Lincoln Products. The pipeliners have copper windings which give you alot softer arc. I have a miller in my shop at work and am trying to get something else that is not as harsh. Welding pipe is much easier with my pipeliner where root passes flow much easier. There are other weldors in my plant which do use the diesels and like them very much. I have the gas and have never tried the diesel. Hope this helps..... good luck

[Markopolo]

Thank you, everyone...I really appreciate it.....and I'll direct this next question to Mr. McCracken: Just what exactly do you mean
by "Push", and "Stacking Ability" ? As you probably know, I'm new at this, but I DO want to learn....I think I understand the "Dig" part.....(as in penetration) ? Red-Flux 6010's give
good "Dig"...(am i on the right track ?)
I'd really appreciate an explanation of the other terms because
I'm thinking (and maybe i'm wrong), that different electrodes
will change the characteristics as much (if not, more) than the machine ? Thanks !

[JTMcC]

push is the same as more dig, the ability to push a bead into an open butt pipe joint easily. some machines make it more work than it should be, especially in the lower ranges of the fine adjustment.

stacking ability is putting down as heavy a bead as possible on each pass, without burying slag. this is a point where machines differ greatly, and fine tuning a machine can make a big difference.

When the pipeline is bid by the foot, and well over 100 welds are made per day, it is a big benefit to knock off one pass per weld. that's what stacking ability does for you.

different electrodes can make drastic changes in characteristics but the welding rod, amp and volt ranges, and all other variables are determined by the welding procedure for the job, you don't get a choice of what rod to use.

regards,
JTMcC.

[Markopolo]

Thanks very much ! I appreciate the reply :)

[Markopolo]

....So it sounds to me like a machines' "stacking ability" is
basically "How big it is" ? In other words, a 350 amp machine
is able to run bigger electrodes than a 250 amp machine, and
therefore put more metal "in the bevel" ?

ALSO: What effect does voltage have on stick welding ?
Looking through the Lincoln catalog, I notice the Pipeliner 200
has a rated output of 200 amps @ 40 volts, while the Classic 300 rates at 300 amps @ 32 volts.

[JTMcC]

No, there is no correlation. All of the machines used for this work put out enough amps.
And, you don't get any say in the size of rod, it's 3/16" the vast majority of the time for fill and cap.
You can't boil this down to a simple equation as there are a lot of variables, one of the most important being the personal preference of the welder. Two of my friends that both have many, many, more years experience than I do, weld quite a bit different than I do and different from each other, but the end result is the same.
Voltage is probably the variable that has the biggest impact on arc character, and it's probably the one welders mess with the most, by changing engine rpm under load. By welding on a different range, and compensating with the fine adjustment, you vary the voltage on a old style (including the new ones) Lincoln engine drive.

regards,
JTMcC.

[Markopolo]

Interesting !.......

Thank you very much for the reply :)

[e016332]

Marko you maybe interested in one of these machines. I bought one of these,, needed a little tinkering and it is a horse.. Mine had 1500 hours on it when I got it from Ft Hood. I bid on a chassis at Ft Campbell and while I was there I looked at these two machines. One has 75 hours., and the other I think was a little over 100 hrs. They looked new and are very heavy duty machines.. I love mine. I am in the process of modifiying the chasis I bought,, to put my machine on.

http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=342182&convertTo=USD

If the link does not work just go to the govliquidation.com site and locations to Ft Campbel TN.. you will see these. They go on auction in a few weeks.. I paid 1400.00 for mine taxes and the 10% included.. I expect these will go in the 3k range possibly due to the excellent condition.

[james]

marko ...do i detect a pipeliner under that hood
jim

[Markopolo]

Thanks e0...I'm not sure that's "my style" :p

Thanks to you, too James ! I often wonder....I work with a guy right now who is a retired master plumber.....and he told me if i go back up north and get in the union, i could make over a $100,000 a year welding pipe. I'm not concerned about the money (i make a good living now), but what really strikes me (from what i read), is that pipeliners are very respected for their talent....and i find that a very enjoyable thought ! :)

[Franz]

Marko I don't know if you can make $100,000 a year welding pipe, but I will damn well assure you that you'll earn every penny you make.
Pipe weldors are definitely a different breed of cat.

[Markopolo]

Franz !....I Believe you !

I've been kinda' practicing welding on pipe (2 1/2" & 3" & 6"),
and from what i gather.....I wouldn't (necessarily) call it "hard"...but it damn sure is different ! ! !

[boilerman]

yes they r a different breed .....but one thing you have to remember ....you make real good money but are on the road alot ....so you spend alot for food and enterainment...the allowance they give you is for **** if you like to eat a good meal

[Markopolo]

Ahhhhh !....I can see it now !.....A brand-new Dodge Ram 3500,
a nice, custom diamond-plate tool bed (with Franz's old pipeliner in the back), the open road, no one looking over yer' shoulder, and just seeing the good ol' USA.....zipping off a few welding jobs here and there....raking in the money !

*I think i could deal with that* :p

[Sberry]

Get yourself some of those big assed yellow "mud boots" hahahaha

[Sberry]

That travel crap gets old in a hurry and all those motel rooms look alike in about a month. Besides,, I dont like to weld that much anymore,, that gets old fast too,, for me about 20 mins and I had it. If I had to do it I would have enough comp to run a scaler,, I am a big cheater. I am sure JM would find that funny??? Dont spose they would let us run feeders???

[Markopolo]

SBerry....you mention motels.......I remember back in '83.....I stopped at the Airport (or Airline) inn on I-75 by Hartsfield, in Atlanta...($12 a night), I wasn't in my room 15 minutes when the phone rang......
"Hello"? "Hi"....Do you want to party ?".......
She obviously was in "cahouts" with the front desk.....

*BOTTOM LINE*....I don't have a problem with motels :D

[Sberry]

The only way I like to spend time in hotel is Holiday Inn,,, in room hot tub,,, 20 yr old. Steak dinner first,, Ok,,, brunette, bout 5'3",,, 105#,,,,, bottom about as wide as a welding rod is long,,,, or close to that.

[Franz]

S if you were in a hottub with a 20 year old, she'd weigh 250 and have 3 kids in there with her, and a week later you'd have a case of the creeping ICK from her.

Marko, rethink the part about nobody looking over your shoulder, pipeliners gotta satisfy a lot of inspectors, and have a boss on their *** about production.

[Sberry]

When you get to be our age you get to be boss,,, ha,,, and we aint gotta tote that welder around on the back of the truck.

[Sberry]

Hey old timer,,, we got lots of those 250's here,,, a man would NEED the 350 to date them. I guess you could get heat in the winter and shade in the summer,,

[Sberry]

This is more my speed.

[Franz]

S, I'm only gonna say this one time, so pay attention.
If it's got ****, tracks or tires, it's gonna cost more than it's worth.
If it makes electricity, lease, don't buy.

[Sberry]

check out my golf cart.

[Sberry]

This one is loaded,,, $$$ ha The only problem is she lives north of you. She has too many of her own intersts to leave or I would kidnap her.

[cutter]

I dunno Sberry,

But from the look of these gals in your lonely hearts club, you either need to upgrade your
membership privleges so you can get laid pretty soon, find a better quality online scam or
stop forgetting to tilt your helmet down before you pull the trigger.
Now I know each of these nice girls is somebody's sister and all that but geez man, you been
staring into the puddle too long.

:p

[Sberry]

Cutter, my problem is that they only let you have one keeper at a time and the idea of divorce court seems painful. It seems I am always testing new ones. This one I do like and she has business smarts. I tell her she would be the only steel erecting indian woman this side of the Mississippi and every time one of those casinos burps we would be there,,, ha The only scary thing about that deal despite her school marm looks is that if a guy screw up too bad she might send one of the brothers over and have a kneecap busted.

[JTMcC]

Originally posted by boilerman
yes they r a different breed .....but one thing you have to remember ....you make real good money but are on the road alot ....so you spend alot for food and enterainment...the allowance they give you is for **** if you like to eat a good meal


Just to clarify what it is you're talking about, how much exactly IS the "allowance" they give you, and who are "they".

JTMcC.

[boilerman]

they ....is the people paying you ....and the allowance is what they give you to eat on ,,,,like 20 bucks aday.......don't know about you guys but i can burn 20 just at breakfest

[JTMcC]

Originally posted by boilerman
they ....is the people paying you ....and the allowance is what they give you to eat on ,,,,like 20 bucks aday.......don't know about you guys but i can burn 20 just at breakfest

yes, I understand that, I've made my living on the road for many years. I'm asking specifically, who, what company, is paying pipeliners $20 a day to eat on, and where are they doing it?

regards,
JTMcC.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Sberry
Cutter, my problem is that they only let you have one keeper at a time and the idea of divorce court seems painful. It seems I am always testing new ones. This one I do like and she has business smarts. I tell her she would be the only steel erecting indian woman this side of the Mississippi and every time one of those casinos burps we would be there,,, ha The only scary thing about that deal despite her school marm looks is that if a guy screw up too bad she might send one of the brothers over and have a kneecap busted.

Aw S,

You are just so good humored I can't even seem to get a good rise out of you. :D
I tell you the truth, I have finally figured out that looks don't mean a thing compared
to finding a woman you can talk to, who can make you laugh and whose mind resonates
with yours. Those qualities are truly priceless. The looks are a nice bonus if the rest is
also there, but when its all said and done, looks are really just bait.

[Franz]

Cutter, let me assure you that mind resonation and talkin thing go down the drain too. Women exist to punish men. Her idea didn't work, it's a man's fault. The man must be punished.

S, I'm startin to think the paint fumes are gettin to ya, get a better resperator!

Stay
Intoxicated
Nightly
Get
Laid
Everyday
Stay SINGLE!

[JTMcC]

Originally posted by Markopolo
Ahhhhh !....I can see it now !.....A brand-new Dodge Ram 3500,
a nice, custom diamond-plate tool bed (with Franz's old pipeliner in the back), the open road, no one looking over yer' shoulder, and just seeing the good ol' USA.....zipping off a few welding jobs here and there....raking in the money !

*I think i could deal with that* :p

If you are seriously considering this as a career, you need to disregard any info or miss information offered by people that have never done the work, and, find and talk to two or three welders that have worked in the pipeline field for at least several years as to get a real world take on what to expect.

There are great advantages, and great disadvantages to this type of work and you ought to have a relistic understanding of both. You won't get that on the internet.

It's not for the average bear, but those that do it don't want to do anything else.

JTMcC.

[Sberry]

Stay
Intoxicated
Nightly
Get
Laid
Everyday
Stay SINGLE!

Been there, done that. Drunk daily sometimes too,, most of the time for 15 yrs. Used to wander around hi-rises wayyyyyy past legally drunk. Didnt get laid everyday,,, but did a lot of things with a lot of women,,,,,, just never married one. Now old timer, is this advice from the guy who finnally got married 8 short years ago??? ha,,, what? I thought it was bliss back at ranch Franz.

[Franz]

This advise is from the Old Fart who was known 9 years back as "the man who can stand in the middle of chaos, define the problem, and come up with the solution, and execute that solution".
I did that well, right up to the day the solution was sending her worthless ******** baby boy off to JAIL as a part of his ongoing education.
Today, I'm known as the ***#OLE who sent her son "Prescious Jezuz" to jail.

Yes, I do regrett the night I saved him from setting his nuts on fire while he was "Blue Flaming" in nylon boxers.

[bomberz1qr20]

Originally posted by Sberry
The only way I like to spend time in hotel is Holiday Inn,,, in room hot tub,,, 20 yr old. Steak dinner first,, Ok,,, brunette, bout 5'3",,, 105#,,,,, bottom about as wide as a welding rod is long,,,, or close to that.

Wait - welding rod, or electrode? Are you talking circumference or diameter?

Wide as a welding rod would mean some 36" diameter wide hips on a 105# woman. She'd look like a pear.

:confused: :eek:

[Markopolo]

Mr. McCracken...you're a real gentleman responding to my (probably stupid) questions with such professionalism.
I don't know if i'm unique, or if there are actually other "middle-aged" men out there that think about a different way to earn a living. (I wonder if i'm too old to learn) ?

For instance: When I got out of mortuary college, I passed all the state & national test's....BUT....that didn't mean I knew what I was doing ! I learned what i know ON THE JOB ! ! !

I've been burying the dead for over 20 years, and learned a lot of stuff you never hear about in school ! I suppose it's the same in the welding business ?

[Franz]

Marko, yer already half way into the pipeline business, burien things in holes in the ground. Leave it at that, and be happy you don't have to be in the hole too.

[Markopolo]

Thanks Franz.....*TRUE FOR YOU* :)

[Markopolo]

Us Funeral Directors have a saying:
"Any day above ground is a GOOD one" !

[Franz]

"LIFE IS NOT A JOURNEY TO THE GRAVE WITH THE INTENTION OF ARRIVING SAFELY IN A PRETTY AND WELL PRESERVED BODY, BUT RATHER AN OPPORTUNITY TO SKID IN BROADSIDE, THOROUGHLY USED UP, TOTALLY WORN OUT, AND LOUDLY PROCLAIMING: YEEHAA.... WHAT A RIDE !!!"

[Markopolo]

That reminds me.....years ago, i buried a pauper....
At the funeral, someone said: "He died pennyless, it's so sad"
I thought to myself..."what's so bad about dieing pennyless ?....
sounds like perfect timing to me !