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MrLeadMan
06-27-2011, 11:56 PM
I've been designing a welding bed and I want a set of gin poles. I've got most of the bed and boxes worked out, but I want some input on the gin poles. I've looked and looked at pictures on the net and I've tried to find some to look at in person with no luck. So I would really appreciate it if some of you guy that run and or build poles could give me a heads up on what mistakes not to make now.

I have thought about a small winch like a 3000 lb. but now I'm leaning more toward a larger one. Also, unless something changes my setup will be on my 99 chevy 2500.

Thanks

A_DAB_will_do
06-28-2011, 10:15 AM
Think about a few things for the moment... What's the remaining payload weight capacity of your chevy 2500, with all your welding gear on board? This should set the max lift capacity of your gin poles, unless you're also going to build some kind of outriggers to transfer the load from the poles to the deck to the ground, without overloading the truck suspension.

Once you've figured this out, you need to size the poles to carry that load, at maximum reach without exceeding the yield strength of the components in the rigging and structure. For safety, make sure that the stress doesn't exceed 1/2 to 1/10 the load required to cause yielding/buckling of the tubes, mounts, pins, cable, hook, and hoist. I've heard cranes are designed for 7x factor of safety, but that's for massive construction equipment that sees continuous duty and which the designers have to account for accumulating fatigue damage. For an small gin pole setup that sees infrequent use, you can probably opt for a smaller FOS in the design.

Make sure you buy a winch/hoist that is designed and rated for overhead lifting. Most of the winches sold are for horizontal pulling and they don't incorporate the safety features you want in a machine that's picking heavy things up off the ground...If the literature with the winch doesn't explicity say it's suitable for overhead lifting, assume that it's not....

Bob
06-29-2011, 12:24 AM
Here's mine. This is the 4th one I've built and I can't think of any thing that would make this any better. I copied parts of several other set ups I have seen. I use mine a lot and consider it to be the best I know of any where. It picks itself up and lays it self back down with the winch line. It takes about a minute to adjust it in angle and a few minutes to extend or shorten it. It goes out to 19' in length, giving me 21' of height counting the truck bed. Sorry, I don't have pictures of the individual parts of it. I could get them tomorrow if you want.

Up at normal height.
Extended half way.
Down
Hauling a forty foot beam

saltbranch
06-29-2011, 12:36 AM
Most of the 1 ton hotshot guys around here are running 8 - 10k winches, for poles 2-7/8" pipe works. Some are using square tube slid inside each other to extend taller if needed , pipe same way. I have seen many use "sockets" welded into bed,where you slide in your poles(need swivel base mounted to end of pole)...similar to a 2" reciever hitch setup...makes for easy mount/removal.
I had a Leland pole bed with rolling tailboard, poles were pin mounted like on the big oilfeild trucks, i used Super Winch 10k winches, was happy with them. Need a long remote and dont skimp on the blocks,wire rope and fittings needed for the setup.
this link might help some

http://www.totalrace.ro/info17.htmle

http://www.j-btrailers.com/1ton.html

saltbranch
06-29-2011, 12:40 AM
Good looking setup Bob, I for one would like to see some close up pics if you have them. After I get my house project down, I plan on building a flatbed with poles for my old 1 ton...hopefully by late summer.

Black Wolf
06-29-2011, 04:54 PM
How BIG do you want the poles to be? lol This is the 2nd last set I made - Pole cap was 35 feet in the air, and they were certified to lift 79.8 Tons.

MrLeadMan
06-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Dab- Thanks for the margin of safety reminder. That had crossed my mind when I asked for input.

Bob- If you could post some detail pictures I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks for the link saltbranch.

Blackwolf -I swear you friggin canadians get carried away with your rig up trucks!lol None of the local rig movers use the tandem fronts, but they do have some trucks with similar wheelbase. I think I'll be lifting more like 700 lb rather than 79 tons. Thanks for the pictures.

Black Wolf
06-29-2011, 08:17 PM
Blackwolf -I swear you friggin canadians get carried away with your rig up trucks!lol None of the local rig movers use the tandem fronts, but they do have some trucks with similar wheelbase. I think I'll be lifting more like 700 lb rather than 79 tons. Thanks for the pictures.

LOL... All joking aside, I have some pics of a Commander that show a decent set up for a fixed pin-type hinge for the poles, but the darn wireless wasn't co-operating with my laptop.

Yes, they will be much larger than what you need, and the pole cap comes off so the poles lay in the deck, but it will give you an idea. I'll see if I can get them posted tonight or tomorrow morning.

Oh, and this one is a "Baby"... I used to run Tandem/Tandem Sows that were over 400" wheelbase. The one above is a Dobule /Set-back Tandem Tandem with a 365" Wheelbase.

I no longer drive in the patch, but from what I hear, Pole Trucks have gone the way of the Dinosaur - All the big companies make the rig movers use Cranes for the Derrick and Draw Works now.

MrLeadMan
06-29-2011, 08:43 PM
but from what I hear, Pole Trucks have gone the way of the Dinosaur - All the big companies make the rig movers use Cranes for the Derrick and Draw Works now.

You know since you mentioned that I haven't seen any of the big pole trucks in some time. But I have been seeing hydraulic lowboys with jeeps under the front. And I remember seeing a crawler crane on a location a couple years ago.

saltbranch
06-29-2011, 09:30 PM
Here in South Texas Pole Trucks are in short supply, they cant build them fast enough. Even old ones are being refurbed. We just outfitted one of the tandem steer trucks today with winch lines and blocks, we have done several tandem steers over the last year or so, they are an awesome piece of equipment.

bravofab
06-29-2011, 10:53 PM
PLEASE DO A BUILD thread when you go and build this

saltbranch
06-30-2011, 12:11 AM
I saw this hotshot truck about a year ago that had a real cool pole setup for his 1 ton, prolly not useful on a welding rig. He built a metal truck bed liner for the inside of the pickup bed,mounted/secured to the frame via brackets, had gooseneck hitch etc. For the poles he used what looked like 3" square tube, the poles were mounted at widest point in rear of bed interior, they were 45 at top with roughly a 3' piece welded in between outerr 45 corners.On the 3' piece he mounted the winch and had setup double lined using snatch blocks. The poles were moved via hydraulic cylinders. So he could go to a location, use poles to lift whatever like small BOPs, trees,valves whatever with the winch, use poles to fold over towards cab, lower material into bed, then lay poles up against the headache rack and transport. He used also for loading unloading his gooseneck trailer. Prolly one of the coolest pole setups I have seen on a 1 ton or actually this was a F-450 with pickup bed on it.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Pics of a pin hinge and the notches in the deck so that the poles will come apart and lay flat.

The lower (flatter) you want the poles to be when you swing them together and install the pole cap, the wider and longer the notch has to be.

Again, WAY TOO BIG for what you are doing, but it should help give you ideas.

I am leaving the pictures LARGE so you can see the detail. I will make a couple of posts.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 06:55 PM
More pics

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 06:58 PM
Pins are installed from the side, and held in by the plate above the red clearance light with 2 bolts in it. Sorry - I'm not good at adding arrows to pictures. lol

Poles are raised out of the deck and onto the kick roll with hydraulic pole risers.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 06:59 PM
The tapered head on the pole riser that contacts the gin pole, and controls it as the poles are raised up to the kick roll.

Hope the pics help.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 07:15 PM
Many, many years ago growing up, the next door neighbour had a 1 Ton with a deck and poles - His poles were 2 piece, and when he slid out the inserts, they laid flat into the deck. When he made up the poles, they rested on a short make up rack between the toolboxes and just above the cab of the truck.

All the pole trucks up here work with tie-back cables, or the winch line from a 2nd winch, and are secured in the working position with chains. I have never seen a truck rigged out so that the poles rested on a frame at the back of the deck. To each their own.

All pole trucks I have driven, you use the winch line to raise them up off the make up rack, or kick roll.

To lower them with tie back cables, we would either pull them over with chains ran under the front of the tires, or back up the bank, and swing on the cables to over-center them <-- BAD IDEA - Guys have DIED from doing this incorrectly.

To lower them when using a 2nd winch, just slack off main line, while winching in tie-back line, and they fold over nice and safe.

The secret has always been how you attach the tail chain of the main line to your rear apron.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 07:16 PM
Oh Crap, I forgot... The last pics of the poles are on this:

irish fixit
07-02-2011, 08:13 PM
I've seen a few things not covered to the level I think they need to be in this thread. Here's pics of my current setup and I'll try to cover some details in them. First off before I get to much flack on this setup I didn't actually build all of it. I have modified it and have plans on further improvements. That said I have lifted 3,500lbs with the line doubled. It requires blocking under the hitch but with care it will do it.

Now on to the first pic. The key thing here is the placement of the tail block in relation to the pole hinges. The pole hinges really need to be in front of the tail block. First off it's needed to allow lifting the poles with the winch as in second pic. Secondly if the tail block is to far forward and you lift a load with the poles near straight up you will pull the poles over onto your headache rack. If you look closely at the first pic you can see the original placement of the pole hinges by the original builder. He put them on the back corners of the bed. This didn't work well. I moved them in board as well as forward to clear the tool boxes I added to the bed. This allows me to lay them flat once the extensions are removed. That said you should have the poles mounted as far outboard as possible for stability.

I took the third pic to show improper rigging of the top. My helper put it back together wrong the other day when we put the welder back on my truck. Notice how the chains are going under the cross pin. I don't like this since if the rings happen to let go the chains could slide down the pole. The fourth pic shows the proper setup with the chains above the pin. This brings up another point. Be sure to attach the chains/cable at the point of load. I know one guy who made his poles with the chains going half way down the poles and couldn't figure out why he kept bending his poles even though they where twice as heavy as mine.

I like the pin through the pole setup the best since it's the least likely to come apart if a side load happens. You should never pull sideways with a set of poles like this however sometimes things happen that cause a side pull when you don't want it. If the poles come apart in a situation like that then it makes a bad situation much worse.

In the last pic you can see the overall setup. Notice the tray on the headache rack to prevent the block from caving in my cab. Eagle eye readers might notice the second winch on the bed. That was my pole winch till it had a gear wear out in it. I've not got around to making a new gear so I'm back to using the chains that where on there when we bought the bed. Don't let the small size of the winches fool you. They are made for lifting and have the same gear setup as 12,000 lb winches just with a small spool. They came off of old auto cranes and are strong enough to break any line I put on them if care is not used. That brings up another detail. Be sure to use a high quality winch line made for the job. The line you see is the highest quality line I can buy and the cost reflected that.

I have some bigger pipe to make a new set of poles but I've just not had time to build them yet. The way it looks I'm going to hold off till I build my next truck since I'm working on plans for it now.

MrLeadMan
07-02-2011, 08:33 PM
Blackwolf thanks for the pics I think that pin setup could be useful.

Irish thank you for the detailed info that is big help.

I've been learning to use Sketchup, I'll try get a drawing up for all to see this week.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 09:57 PM
Now on to the first pic. The key thing here is the placement of the tail block in relation to the pole hinges. The pole hinges really need to be in front of the tail block. First off it's needed to allow lifting the poles with the winch as in second pic. Secondly if the tail block is to far forward and you lift a load with the poles near straight up you will pull the poles over onto your headache rack. If you look closely at the first pic you can see the original placement of the pole hinges by the original builder. He put them on the back corners of the bed. This didn't work well.


I like the pin through the pole setup the best since it's the least likely to come apart if a side load happens.

With all respect to you Irish, I will have to disagree with your statements, and your logic. I will explain my self as best I can.

1st off, the pole hinges do not "have to be in front of the tail block" - Never seen a set of poles like that - Never built a set of poles like that. Never ran a set of poles like that. Sorry.

2nd - That has squat to do with raising the poles into the working position. As long as the line coming off your winch drum is below the line coming off the pole cap and going over your roll, the poles are going to raise up - Period. The higher your poles are from horizontal, the easier they will raise up.

3rd - Gin Poles were NEVER designed to work at absolute Vertical - And I have NEVER seen, or used a set of poles in the air that wasn't secured in the working position with tie-back chains. When the pole cap is laid back just behind the roll, and tied back with 1/2" System 70 chains, you can damn near push with them. To operate poles with a load at Vertical, or without tie-back chains is sheer recklessness.

The last point - Not to knock a man who is doing the best he can with what he has, but that is NOT the "Best set up for a set of poles - A manufactured Pole Cap is - The hold back cables, chains, or winch line attach to the Pole Cap. Agreed poles are not really designed for side loading - But a properly buile pole cap that slides into the poles 12" or so, then pins into the poles, will not come out - Even if you drop the poles.

It is kind of hard to see from the photos but I will explain myself:

First Photo: The Snatch Block/Tail Block/Sheave (Whatever you want to call it) attaches to a steel bracket called the "Deadman" that drops below the deck surface when not in use. As you can see from the photo - The Pin holding the Snatch Block to the Deadman is in-line with the hinges on gin poles.

Second Photo: When the poles are in the air, and the winch line is tight, the Deadman leans towards the winch, and the Snatch Block and winch line are on the winch side of the gin poles - The opposite to what you described.

Please note as well the tabs on the poles, and the tie-back chains that hold them in the working position.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 10:04 PM
Pole Cap Pics

First pic - Pole cap secured to the side of the bed in behind the steps.

Second pic - Stairs removed, and the pole cap can clearly be seen below Dameon (worker on the deck)

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 10:11 PM
Gin Poles in the air, and pole cap pinned into poles.

Note: This set of poles was Engineered to use 1-1/8" Tie back cables, the Braden 125 Main Winch is supposed to be the "Load Line" and the Tulsa Rufnek 60 is supposed to be through the apron, and used to hold the BOP's from swinging.

In these photos, the Tie-back cables aren't being used, the Braden 125 is holding the poles, and the Rufnek 30 is the load line. These are "Demo" Photos just showing the poles in the air.

Again Irish, I intend NO Disrespect, and I understand a man making do with what he has, but sometimes, there IS a better way.

Black Wolf
07-02-2011, 10:18 PM
I do not intend that the OP build an absolute monstrosity like I have for use on a pick-up - that would be foolish... Instead, I suggest that he marry the two ideas together - Fab up a pole cap that slides into the poles, has a provision to attach the tie-back cables, AND has a provision to attach a snatch block/pulley/sheave very similiar to the one you have shown.

I have seen several pick-up poles in years past with the set-up I just described above, but unfortunately, I do not have pictures.

I have Google SketchUp as well - I can draft up a model of what I am describing if it will help.

Hope that helps, and doesn't confuse or offend anyone.

saltbranch
07-02-2011, 11:55 PM
Black Wolf, ya'll fab your own TB blocks?? You definetly play with some big equipment. Most of the 1 tons around here I have seen are using an "A" that drops into the poles at top and are pinned, they hag a block off the crossbar in the "A". Definetly agree on chains to secure poles.

MrLeadman, when you get to point of putting the rigging together, shoot me a PM with what you are looking for. I work for a wire rope rigging shop and we sell pretty much everything you will need short of the winch. We carry the McKissick and Gunnebo Johnson Blocks, wire rope and all the fittings needed from 1/4" upto 3-1/2"...I should be able to get you some good pricing on it.

Bob
07-03-2011, 12:55 AM
These are close ups of my gin poles. I made this set up about 22 years ago. I copied parts of several different sets I had seen and talked to the owners to see what would be best. The biggest was almost as big as what Black Wolf shows and the smallest was on a 1 ton that was an oil field weldors truck.

Although I have two connection points to hold the poles up, you can adjust both sides at the same time from the drivers side. There is a chain hook welded to the head ache rack that a chain slips in. The chain is hooked to a piece of winch line that goes to a snatch block at the head and back down to the other side of the head ache rack. The ring you see welded to the head ache rack is used when you bring your running line hook between the poles and hook it to the ring to hold the poles up with the winch while you make adjustments.

The second picture shows the head while the poles are down on the rack. You can see the hold back piece of winch line running through the home made snatch block. What I like with this head is I can winch up to the very hieght of the poles unlike when you have the hanging snatch block that your running line goes through. The poles are 2 1/2"x3/16" square tube with 2"x1/4" square inside. I can extend them to half way and all the way minus a foot. They are then 19' long anf there is 3'3" from the ground to the pivot point of the swivel pins at the base so I have almost 22' of lift.

Black Wolf
07-03-2011, 12:56 AM
Black Wolf, ya'll fab your own TB blocks?? You definetly play with some big equipment. Most of the 1 tons around here I have seen are using an "A" that drops into the poles at top and are pinned, they hag a block off the crossbar in the "A". Definetly agree on chains to secure poles.

Yessir -Some of the components were cut out by a sub shop, but tack up and weld out was done by myself and 2 other Welders. Started out with 4 welders total, but one couldn't work to my standards, so he left.

I use a lot of Crosby and McKissick brand components whenever possible. Always loved using "Blue Strand" Wire Rope. Never really liked the White Strand, or Green Strand Import Stuff - Didn't train as nice, or last as long - As least it seemed like that to me.

Great description on the "A"... That is what I am picturing in my mind, just didn't describe it properly - Thanks.

Since you are a Wire and Rope Guy - Here's a shot from last year - It's a little Baby 10 Ton on a Garbage Bin Truck, but you should appreciate the nice spooling,

Have a Good Night.

Black Wolf
07-03-2011, 01:00 AM
Very Nice Bob... Thanks for the pics and explanation.

A couple more pics of pole caps off the Commanders - Same machine, just before and after mods to remove the 2nd winch and install a roller fairlead.

Bob
07-03-2011, 01:01 AM
Although they don't look it now the base pieces of the poles are stainless. They were given to me by a scrapper and I have no idea what their intended purpose was. The bolt is 1", probably over kill but that was the size of the hole in the stainless pieces.

In the next picture you can see I made it where I can take out the bottom bolt and the holder piece will set down below bed height to be able to carry bigger stuff on the bed.

Bob
07-03-2011, 01:08 AM
I used it just this evening to set an old metal cistern on a cistern stand. It is supposed to have the water coming out of a pipe and falling into the pool so it's non functional as a cistern. I set the wind mill for this guy last year. When I set the wind mill I had to extend the poles out all the way. To do this I pulled the winch line between the poles, hook to the eye on the rack and let the poles all the way to the bed. Back up to a tree and tie the head to the tree and drive forward until I can put the pins in the poles. I can pull them out by hand but the tree method is easier, well, I mean, if you have a tree.

The stand for the cistern was short enough that I didn't have to do that but I did have to winch up all the way to the top of the head. Total time spent was about 15 minutes, no welding but a quick $50.

Bob
07-03-2011, 01:24 AM
I might also mention that when loading stuff on a trailer with an "A" frame, you can back your rig up to the object and jack knife the rig where the poles are over the object. You can then winch it up, get in the truck, pull forward until the trailer in straight behind and then let it down into the front of the trailer. I've done this many times, works like a champ and saves taking the trailer off.

I don't know about the bigger trucks but for my size, I think you should have the pivots for the bottom of the poles on the bed between the axle and the back spring hangers and right over the frame. You definitely need additional framing under the bed as well. There is massive pressure there on a very small area. The ones that have them all the way to the rear can't pick up as much as it pulls the back of the truck down too much.

Also with the pivots back from the edge you can put tie downs on the poles at the length that will let the poles set straight up with out falling onto the head ache rack. When you need to load something onto the back of the truck there will be room there with the poles back away from the back edge of the bed. Also you can put a clamp onto the winch line at a spot that will stop at the gin pole head when the object is just about bed height. Once the line clamp hits the head the poles will start forward, that is until they are stopped by the tie downs. When it stops you let out the winch line until the object is on the bed. One of the people I copied part of my rig from was loading an engine out of a dozer onto his bed when I drove up. I was truly impressed at the time but have used the same technique many time since.

Black Wolf
07-03-2011, 01:30 AM
I don't discount that you and many others have worked out some really neat tricks that you can do with the poles on a pick-up. I can picture what you are describing. For obvious reasons, those sort of things are just NOT a good idea on the iron I used to run.

Of course, I never said I didn't lay the poles down on the headache rack, and then winch a load onto the poles on short location moves.

Shhh... Don't tell. Ok?

Black Wolf
07-03-2011, 01:40 AM
I don't know about the bigger trucks but for my size, I think you should have the pivots for the bottom of the poles on the bed between the axle and the back spring hangers and right over the frame.

I believe that is a very accurate suggestion. I don't have any close-up shots to support that, but in this longer shot, you can see that the pole hinge is "above" the rear axle, and the force of the load is transferred into the suspension.

irish fixit
07-03-2011, 02:14 PM
With all respect to you Irish, I will have to disagree with your statements, and your logic. I will explain my self as best I can.

I'm afraid I'll have to argue a little here. I'm not bashing you but just trying to get my point across since this can definitely be safety related. You do bring up some good points however you're making some sweeping statements that have some possible problems.



1st off, the pole hinges do not "have to be in front of the tail block" - Never seen a set of poles like that - Never built a set of poles like that. Never ran a set of poles like that. Sorry.

2nd - That has squat to do with raising the poles into the working position. As long as the line coming off your winch drum is below the line coming off the pole cap and going over your roll, the poles are going to raise up - Period. The higher your poles are from horizontal, the easier they will raise up.


Ok lets start with these. No the block doesn't have to be behind the poles. However it does need to have the cable fairly close to the poles. I'm attaching some drawings to try and explain my points. In the first drawing I'm showing what I'm talking about as for the tail block not raising the poles. If the distance of point A is smaller than point B then the poles will not raise but rather be pulled down into the headache rack. In the second drawing I've drawn it so that the tail block (or rather the shiv of the tail block) is behind the poles but there's a good bit of distance from the end of the bed to the pivot point of the poles. In this case the poles will raise with the winch line. Now if the tail block was further back then it would raise them with less stress on everything and be more controllable when doing it. This is all just basic physics and is calculated using vectors. I could set down and calculate them but I hope you can see my point without that.




3rd - Gin Poles were NEVER designed to work at absolute Vertical - And I have NEVER seen, or used a set of poles in the air that wasn't secured in the working position with tie-back chains. When the pole cap is laid back just behind the roll, and tied back with 1/2" System 70 chains, you can damn near push with them. To operate poles with a load at Vertical, or without tie-back chains is sheer recklessness.


Here I agree with never operate them vertical. However if you go back and reread what I wrote you'll find the word "near" there. I consider the poles in your pics to be near vertical. But not to be nit picky here let me show you the point I was trying to make in another drawing. In all cases the distance from point B must be more than either A or C. If it's not then the poles will come crashing back to towards the cab. In the case of C you can see that it's longer so unless the poles are tied down like you describe then the poles will come back. On the point of chaining the poles like that I have to say that I've rarely seen that setup around here. In fact I'm trying to remember a single truck big or little that has that setup. I think I've seen it a couple of times but I just can't remember where. At any rate it would be foolish to rely on the chains to keep the poles in place in the case of C above.



The last point - Not to knock a man who is doing the best he can with what he has, but that is NOT the "Best set up for a set of poles - A manufactured Pole Cap is - The hold back cables, chains, or winch line attach to the Pole Cap. Agreed poles are not really designed for side loading - But a properly buile pole cap that slides into the poles 12" or so, then pins into the poles, will not come out - Even if you drop the poles.


I agree that is the best setup. But few people have the equipment to build a block from scratch. The other thing is that style cap limits you to one pole length do to the change in angle if they are longer or shorter. Thus you have have a different cap for each pole. Now if you have a set of telescoping poles then you'll have to carry a bunch of them. If done properly the pin setup is capable of handling the difference.

Another poster mentioned the A style caps. I have one of those and even had a picture of it but because I'm not so fond of it I didn't make another post to get it in. Most of them I see around here are just slipped into the end of the poles without pins holding them. Thus the reason I don't like them.



It is kind of hard to see from the photos but I will explain myself:

First Photo: The Snatch Block/Tail Block/Sheave (Whatever you want to call it) attaches to a steel bracket called the "Deadman" that drops below the deck surface when not in use. As you can see from the photo - The Pin holding the Snatch Block to the Deadman is in-line with the hinges on gin poles.

Second Photo: When the poles are in the air, and the winch line is tight, the Deadman leans towards the winch, and the Snatch Block and winch line are on the winch side of the gin poles - The opposite to what you described.

Please note as well the tabs on the poles, and the tie-back chains that hold them in the working position.

I see your points but hopefully this post will let you see mine. Another thing that makes a difference in your setup is the fact that the poles are hinged below the deck level. This helps but was not practical in my setup.

Black Wolf
07-03-2011, 03:08 PM
I REALLY wish you would have posted up your drawings and explanations in 3 seperate posts instead of that chopped up garbled up mess that is a nightmare to follow. I will do my best to sort through it.

In my opinion, you as well made some "sweeping statements that have some possible problems." ie the pole hinges in front of the tail block.

From a cursory glance, I believe you and I are more or less on the same page, just explained it differently.


Gimme a few minutes please to sort through your post.

irish fixit
07-03-2011, 03:38 PM
I REALLY wish you would have posted up your drawings and explanations in 3 seperate posts instead of that chopped up garbled up mess that is a nightmare to follow. I will do my best to sort through it.

If I could manage to make the pics come up where I want them it wouldn't be so bad. I've not figured out how to do that without hosting them somewhere else.


In my opinion, you as well made some "sweeping statements that have some possible problems." ie the pole hinges in front of the tail block.

From a cursory glance, I believe you and I are more or less on the same page, just explained it differently.


Gimme a few minutes please to sort through your post.

The pole hinge doesn't have to be in front of the block but it's a whole lot easier to explain it that way rather than go through what I did to try and get my point across.

I do believe we are on the same page as well in many ways. It just the little details we're differing about.

Black Wolf
07-03-2011, 03:45 PM
No the block doesn't have to be behind the poles. However it does need to have the cable fairly close to the poles.

Agreed - That was the point I was trying to illustrate when I responded to your initial post. My pictures and explanations that followed clearly outline that fact.


I'm attaching some drawings to try and explain my points. In the first drawing I'm showing what I'm talking about as for the tail block not raising the poles. If the distance of point A is smaller than point B then the poles will not raise but rather be pulled down into the headache rack.


As long as the line coming off your winch drum is below the line coming off the pole cap and going over your roll, the poles are going to raise up - Period. The higher your poles are from horizontal, the easier they will raise up.


In the second drawing I've drawn it so that the tail block (or rather the shiv of the tail block) is behind the poles but there's a good bit of distance from the end of the bed to the pivot point of the poles.

No, you didn't - In all diagrams, the shiv is on the winch side of the gin poles EXACTLY where I said it should be.


Second Photo: When the poles are in the air, and the winch line is tight, the Deadman leans towards the winch, and the Snatch Block and winch line are on the winch side of the gin poles - The opposite to what you described.

Here I agree with never operate them vertical. However if you go back and reread what I wrote you'll find the word "near" there. I consider the poles in your pics to be near vertical.

<Snip>

On the point of chaining the poles like that I have to say that I've rarely seen that setup around here. In fact I'm trying to remember a single truck big or little that has that setup. I think I've seen it a couple of times but I just can't remember where. At any rate it would be foolish to rely on the chains to keep the poles in place in the case of C above.

I guess we are at a difference of opinions, and we will have to agree to disagree - I don't operate a set-up like you do on a 1 ton lifting motors etc, and you don't move Drilling Rigs and move Big Iron like I USED to. If I laid the poles back as far as you show, then Yes, Chaining them would be redundant, but in order to lift WEIGHT - Not "Pounds" ... TONS... You need to have that load as close to the back of the truck, and the suspension as possible. In THAT case, Chaining the poles is a MUST. The tabs and chains I have shown are more than adequate. No, I'm not going to do the math for you either. The pole truck I posted pictures of is rated to lift 79.8 TONS exactly where the pole are. I will let my work, and it's documentation speak for itself.

I agree that is the best setup. But few people have the equipment to build a block from scratch. The other thing is that style cap limits you to one pole length do to the change in angle if they are longer or shorter. Thus you have have a different cap for each pole. Now if you have a set of telescoping poles then you'll have to carry a bunch of them. If done properly the pin setup is capable of handling the difference.

I KNOW that you are a "Smart Cookie" (<-- Meant as complimentary) and are very resourceful - Surely you could have sorted out how to make swivels (attaching the pipes to the pole cap) to accomodate the varying angles to suit your needs. It is VERY simple to do.

I see your points but hopefully this post will let you see mine. Another thing that makes a difference in your setup is the fact that the poles are hinged below the deck level. This helps but was not practical in my setup.

We don't build pole trucks up here where the poles do not "diappear" below the deck surface - It wrecks the hauling or work surface. Even the 1 Ton poles come apart and bury in the deck.

And I DO see the points you wished to make. Aside from some minor issues, we are more or less in agreement. I would submit that BOTH of us are striving to provide what we believe to be accurate and SAFE information so that readers can construct a good working set of poles that operate well.

On the minor points of contention, I will suggest again that we Repectfully Agree to Disagree.

I hope I explained myself sufficiently while not being too offensive.... I'm working on that.

irish fixit
07-03-2011, 04:04 PM
We don't build pole trucks up here where the poles do not "diappear" below the deck surface - It wrecks the hauling or work surface. Even the 1 Ton poles come apart and bury in the deck.

And I DO see the points you wished to make. Aside from some minor issues, we are more or less in agreement. I would submit that BOTH of us are striving to provide what we believe to be accurate and SAFE information so that readers can construct a good working set of poles that operate well.

On the minor points of contention, I will suggest again that we Repectfully Agree to Disagree.

I hope I explained myself sufficiently while not being too offensive.... I'm working on that.

I can't say that I've seen any purpose made pole trucks without the recessed poles either. I would of loved to of done that on mine but it just wasn't practical.

I agree that we're striving for the same thing and for the most part agree on everything. My original post wasn't as clear on some areas as I could of made it. It was just the easiest way for me to explain some things that I felt where fairly critical to proper operation of the poles.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

Black Wolf
07-03-2011, 04:17 PM
Very good then Sir.

Let me wish you a very Happy and Enjoyable 4th of July.

Old Doug
05-19-2013, 07:13 PM
Can some one tell me if tie back chains will hold the poles back or if you have to have a tail block?

Stick-man
05-19-2013, 10:44 PM
I haven't seen Black Wolf on here in a while. Hopefully irish fixit will chime in.




Tagged gin poles

irish fixit
05-19-2013, 11:51 PM
Sorry for the slow reply. I threw my back out today and I've not felt well enough to get to the computer and reply.

I wouldn't trust it. If for no other reason than you're putting additional strain on the poles. That said I suppose that if engineered correctly it would work but there's a lot of complicated stresses involved.

Old Doug
05-20-2013, 01:38 PM
My truck is a 1970 single axle leaf spring tractor. The frame has 6" behined the rear springs and that is were the poles are hinged. Its has a hitch plate on the rear of the frame with a pintel hitch. Can i put the tail block back their or should i build some thing behind the 5 wheel? If i was to do over i would have built it totaly different but its what i got. I need to pickup and move 3500 pounds about 50 feet.

irish fixit
05-20-2013, 05:37 PM
My truck is a 1970 single axle leaf spring tractor. The frame has 6" behined the rear springs and that is were the poles are hinged. Its has a hitch plate on the rear of the frame with a pintel hitch. Can i put the tail block back their or should i build some thing behind the 5 wheel? If i was to do over i would have built it totaly different but its what i got. I need to pickup and move 3500 pounds about 50 feet.

Without seeing what the hitch looks like I'd be scared to say whether it would work or not. However if it's built the way it should be built then that would be a good place to put it.

A picture of the setup would help tremendously.

Old Doug
05-20-2013, 08:30 PM
Thanks for your help irish fixit. I built this truck 5 years ago and have been useing it with no tail block or tie back chains. last summer i was loading some trucks to scrap on a very hilly farm and my poles came back over.The cable broke the windshield i was very lucky not to have goten hurt. I knew it could happen.The truck i used before was a 3/4 chevy. I built a set of poles that had pipes that went up part way on them that when they were stood up hit the frame above the rear end. A 3/8 cable held them their. They worked very good but took a lot of extra pipe to build. I am building a tail block now. I want to put tie back chains on it also but will have to figure out how to do it because of rear of truck is to short.

irish fixit
05-20-2013, 10:41 PM
Ok. Yes sounds dangerous alright.

Sounds like you're running into my problem with tie back chains. There's no place to put them where they have enough leverage to do more than stop a pole from just flopping over on you when unhooked. To be truthful I'd never even heard of tie back chains till this thread came up.

Old Doug
05-21-2013, 04:40 PM
I thought about building some kind of stand of for the tie back chains. If i was to do over i would have moved the 5 wheel ahead and put the pole hinges closer to the axle so i could of made it better for the tie back chains. The 5 wheel only is used to move trailers around.I do not use it very much or i would get a better truck and use my experience to build it better.Most of the pole trucks around here use a pipe going from the headach rack to the top of the poles.

irish fixit
05-21-2013, 07:21 PM
I thought about building some kind of stand of for the tie back chains. If i was to do over i would have moved the 5 wheel ahead and put the pole hinges closer to the axle so i could of made it better for the tie back chains. The 5 wheel only is used to move trailers around.I do not use it very much or i would get a better truck and use my experience to build it better.Most of the pole trucks around here use a pipe going from the headach rack to the top of the poles.

Hind sight always gives ways to make things better.

I can't say that I've seen pipes used that way myself. Interesting how things are done different in other parts of the country.

Bob
05-21-2013, 10:25 PM
If your head ache rack is more substantial, you could tie back to it. With the larger angle, it makes the whole rig much stronger.

dubl_t
05-22-2013, 11:01 PM
Hey Doug,
If you could, post up some pics of your gin pole setup please. It IS interesting to see how engineering is different regionally.

Old Doug
05-28-2013, 12:36 PM
If your head ache rack is more substantial, you could tie back to it. With the larger angle, it makes the whole rig much stronger.

I dont under stand how to do this. Right now i have a cable runing over the top of the rack to hold the poles up. My camera is broken i thought it was the batterys but it is some thing else. I will get a new one and post some pics. I am working on a tail block. I have a pulley from a crane i scraped. I am useing 3/4" plate on block and on the part that is on the truck. The pulley has a 2" pin and i am going to use a 1" bolt to pin it to the truck.

dubl_t
05-28-2013, 02:02 PM
I think we need to clarify what "tie back" chains are (for my sake if nobody else's).
-are they the chains that hold the pole to the correct work height, fixed between the pole and the front of the truck,
-or are they chains to prevent the pole from landing on the cab in the event of a near verticle lift, fixed from the pole to the rear of the bed?
Thanks.

irish fixit
05-28-2013, 10:57 PM
Ok let's try and clarify a few things here.

Tie back chains as described by Black Wolf would be in yellow on this crude sketch I just threw together. I can't remember seeing any in use around here though I think a very few factory beds where equipped with them.

What I believe Bob is talking about would be the pole support chains and/or cables. Those are in red and blue here.

What he's saying is that if you have a heavy enough head ache rack then you can use the chains in the blue position which will reduce the load on those chains/cables when the poles are laid down in a low position.

With them in the red position they can get a very high load on them with the poles down low. If low enough the load can be multiplied many times over the weight being lifted.

At least that's the way I read this.

Bob
05-28-2013, 11:00 PM
I think we need to clarify what "tie back" chains are (for my sake if nobody else's).
-are they the chains that hold the pole to the correct work height, fixed between the pole and the front of the truck,
-or are they chains to prevent the pole from landing on the cab in the event of a near verticle lift, fixed from the pole to the rear of the bed?
Thanks.

I've always called the "tie backs" the chains or lines that hold the poles up. The ones that keep it from going over are hold down lines. It may be different in other parts of the country.

irish fixit
05-28-2013, 11:15 PM
I've always called the "tie backs" the chains or lines that hold the poles up. The ones that keep it from going over are hold down lines. It may be different in other parts of the country.

I definitely can't say for certain what the official title for them are around here. I think they're usually called pole lines. I definitely know we call the winch used the pole winch.

This stuff can get very confusing if the names get mixed up that's for sure.

From a quick look around on the web it appears that many call them guy lines like are used on a antenna tower.

Anyway we definitely need to get on the same page with this nomenclature thing.

Bob
05-28-2013, 11:18 PM
Dangit Irish, youi beat me to it. That is exactly what I meant.

I do have a hold down chain that I very seldom use when I want to load some thing onto the bed. I put a 3 bolt clamp on the winch line above the object that is going onto the bed. As i pick up on the winch line, the clamp gets to the head and stops but the winch keeps pulling. It will start lifting on the poles which will swing the object over the bed. The hold down chain lets the poles get just past vertical. That way you can let the object down onto the bed and the poles will stay in position.

Old Doug, look at Irish's drawing and you can see the higher angle to the head ache rack. I don't use two chains though. I use one chain that is spliced to a piece of winch line which runs through a pully and back down to the head ache rack on the other side. That way I only have to make one adjustment on the drivers side to adjust both lines. Here is a couple pictures.

In the first picture you can see the chain and the splice against the sky. The winch line is pinned on the passenger side of the truck. The chain is held on a hook on the drivers side. If I adjust the chain in the hook, the winch line slides through the pulley at the top. In the second picture, the inside poles are half way out. The chain is out way more to allow for it. It only takes a couple minutes to make the change this way. Third picture is the hook up at the head ache rack. You can see the chain going around a big pin and hooked on a chain hook that is welded to the rack.

dubl_t
05-29-2013, 01:05 PM
Thanks Wayne & Bob,
That's what I was thinking, "tie back" chains keep the load from going backwards.

Now, I know this is gonna vary by what a guy can find, but what would you say is the minimum wall thickness of the tubing? And diameter too, since that plays into strength.

From what I remember, and I only have 1 experience with gin poles, my buddy used 1/4" wall.
Interestingly, his pole setup worked off the front of his rig. He did mostly heavy equipment repair working mines and fire fighting sites.

irish fixit
05-29-2013, 09:29 PM
Depends on what you're going to do with them and how they're rigged up. Lots of variables there. Mine are only 2 3/8" tubing and I've had over 3,000 lbs on them but I wouldn't go much more than that.

Bob
05-29-2013, 11:23 PM
My out side tubes are 2 1/2x11ga. and the inside tubes are 2"x1/4. I've had to put hired hands on the front to keep the front end of the truck on the ground. That happens when the poles are laid down quite a ways and you are picking up a bunch. Heaviest thing I have picked up with it is a BBQ pit for another weldor. It weighed 3600#.

dubl_t
05-30-2013, 09:23 PM
Thanks again you two.
Bob, is your winch mounted up high on your headache rack? I like the way you have your pole line system.

What do you two think of mounting the winch to a cradle with a receiver, to make it more versatile. I know it depends on the winch, some just aren't gonna be portable due to weight or power input.

walker
05-30-2013, 09:34 PM
I have been watching this thread with interest, as I have been considering how to set 6, 24' 6x6x1/4 post up at my cabin property. I have been considering a set that would mount to my front bumper (8x8x1/4 tube) or building a rear bumper with a set of clevises to mount one on. Has anyone ever seen a pickup bed mounted rig? I wouldn't necessarily need a winch adjusted rig, tie back chains and a winch to lift would be great though.

walker
05-30-2013, 09:43 PM
Interesting link on calculating load based on angle of pull. http://www.lanturideridicare.ro/info20.html

dubl_t
05-30-2013, 10:05 PM
Thanks for the link Walker, pretty useful info.

Bob
05-30-2013, 11:13 PM
Thanks again you two.
Bob, is your winch mounted up high on your headache rack? I like the way you have your pole line system.

What do you two think of mounting the winch to a cradle with a receiver, to make it more versatile. I know it depends on the winch, some just aren't gonna be portable due to weight or power input.


I have a 9,000# Pierce winch and it is heavy. I wouldn't mount it on a reciever myself. It is too heavy to move and I wouldn't think it would hold up. Mine is mounted off the bed as part of the head ache rack Here is a picture.

Bob
05-30-2013, 11:19 PM
I have been watching this thread with interest, as I have been considering how to set 6, 24' 6x6x1/4 post up at my cabin property. I have been considering a set that would mount to my front bumper (8x8x1/4 tube) or building a rear bumper with a set of clevises to mount one on. Has anyone ever seen a pickup bed mounted rig? I wouldn't necessarily need a winch adjusted rig, tie back chains and a winch to lift would be great though.

I have seen some pick up gin poles before but not very tall ones.

If you have a head ache rack then the winch can automatically be used for adjusting the poles. I have a ring welded to the head ache rack that I bring the winch line through the poles and hook to it. You take up on the winch line and it holds the poles up. Then you can take the adjustment chain loose and let the poles down or take them up with the winch to where you want them and then put the chain back on it's hook. Here's some pictures of it in action.

The control is on a retractable extension cord spool in a box. Makes it handy.

irish fixit
05-31-2013, 12:03 AM
Bob you have a good well thought out setup there. Mines a little more make do with what was already there though I've improved it a few times. I did have a pole winch setup on mine but I ended up stripping a gear in it (old worn out winch) but I've never had time to cut another one.

I'm still deciding what I want to do on my next truck. I've got the truck and got the utility bed for it and full plans for welder mounting etc. But my lifting setup is still on the fence. I have to admit that there's been times I wished for a crane setup instead of a pole setup. But to get a crane capable of lifting what I have with my poles would not only cost a fortune but it would weigh a ton taking to much payload capacity away from my rig.

I'm currently considering building a small crane setup for say under 1000lb loads to allow for more flexible handling of the lighter loads I commonly run into but also have a good set of pole for those times when I need to lift heavy or high. I've not got all the details worked out yet. I'd really like to get this setup where I could pull at least some goose neck trailers when I need to as well.


I've seen a few poles mounted on standard bed pickups. I also know of one that the guy broke the frame of the truck after lifting to much.

Thoughts on mounting the poles on the front of the truck. I have to admit that there's times that would be nice from ease of moving loads and positioning.

But keep in mind that you're loading the axle pretty heavily with bigger loads and front axles aren't rated very high and already have a pretty heavy load from the engine. I have to put blocks under my hitch on my truck if I lift a very heavy load just to prevent to much tire squat (mines a single rear wheel 3/4 ton truck already loaded to the max with tools).

Also there's the storing of the poles. The only way I can see this working is you'll have to remove the poles and store them to go down the highway.

And final argument against is the need for counter balance of the load. Unless you have a heavily loaded bed most trucks don't weigh much on the rear. In the above case where the guy broke the frame of the truck he had the front end off the ground when he did it. The weight of the engine (especially the heavy diesel in my truck ) and the length of the truck are factors in this part of the lifting capability.

Anyway just some thoughts to keep in mind when designing a rig.

dubl_t
05-31-2013, 06:22 PM
Lots of good points Wayne, keep us in the loop on your next design ;)

Yea I wish I had more info regarding my buddy's setup. He had a 1 ton 12 valve Dodge 4x4 dually, made his own boxes, can't recall what welder, O/A of course, and used York compressors powered by a 5hp Honda to fill a 40 gal tank. Said a York would last him a season, then he'd get another at the wrecking yard and do it again.

I'm sure he ran his poles off the front, and I "think" he had his winch mounted up on the headache rack some how, or else he ran the line up through a block. Maybe he used his poles on the front or rear.


Yea Bob, I really like your outfit. It seems like you don't post much anymore regarding projects, but I look forward to 'em when you do.

And Wayne, damb, I can't tell you how much I've picked up off your posts.

steelsmith101
05-31-2013, 08:44 PM
I've been reading though all the posts each time I check in, lots of good info on how to rig gen poles.
I have not had need of a set up but maybe will someday, may make a small set jest for the fun of it so I can show the grandson something new we can play with.
Thanks for the info.
Joe

dubl_t
05-31-2013, 11:01 PM
.... may make a small set jest for the fun of it so I can show the grandson something new we can play with.
Thanks for the info.
Joe

That'd be cool as hell Joe,
Make him a mini gin pole for his pedal car.....er, battery operated car nowdays, using a little hand crank boat winch!

Old Doug
06-01-2013, 09:09 PM
This is my truck.

irish fixit
06-01-2013, 09:43 PM
This is my truck.

Not much detail to go with. It looks like you've got those poles hinged down low and right at the back. Hard to get a tail block back far enough to help keep the poles down.

I do see one big problem though. You've run the cables holding the poles down the pole from the block. Not a good thing since that puts bending stress on the poles. The cables should be as close to same position as the block as possible to reduce bending stress on the poles.

My neighbor had his setup similarly and bent his poles twice. Both times with 3 or more times heavier pipe than I've got on mine. My poles are mostly 2 3/8" upset tubing which is basically 2" pipe. The top extensions are 2" pipe with 1 1/2" pipe that slides inside the poles. I've lifted a lot of weight and never bent them (except for the time that they came in contact with something else). His last set of poles where something like 4" heavy wall pipe and he bent them.

Old Doug
06-02-2013, 11:01 AM
I put the cables were they are because it was easyer at the time. I planed on hooking them to the pin that goes through the top of the poles but something needs to be built to do this.I would like to move the poles closer to the winch but i dont want it to be a problem if i need to use the fifthwheel. The poles are hinged behind the back spring hangers. I wish i could put them up behind the fifthwheel but the hinge point would have to be removed to use the fifthwheel. They would allso have to be tall so poles wouldnt need to be held up to put hing pins in.I had a ideal just now about makeing a plate to set on the frame behind fifthwheel to hook poles and tail blook on that would use the poles old hinges to pin it on the truck making a place for new hing points farther from the rear of the frame and tie back chains would work. It could be winched on the truck with poles attached to it.

dubl_t
06-02-2013, 03:05 PM
hey Doug, do you have a way to take better pics?
maybe more close up pics too, of the critical parts.

Old Doug
06-02-2013, 05:54 PM
I am dumb as dirt with a computer and i have dial up. It took over 2 hours to get that picture posted.I may go to the library and use one of theirs. Yes better pictures would help.

Old Doug
05-18-2014, 12:38 PM
I riged up some tie back chains and have been useing it this way. I would like make several changes to it but i dont have the time right now. I am thinking about a set for a 1ton and wanted to know what would be a good winch? Bob are you still useing the same winch?

Bob
05-18-2014, 10:02 PM
I'm still using the same winch. I bought it new around 28 years ago. No complaints at all.