Can this vise be saved?

[cutter]

I found this old Wilton #6 (Chicago, Ill.) last month lying in the weeds out behind the wellhouse belonging to one of my customers, a woman who is selling the property & who has since moved to the DFW area. God knows how long it had been there.

This sucker is huge; that is an 8 inch Crescent I tossed in front of it for scale & it weighs in at 105 pounds. The moving jaw is stuck inside the receiver and so far has resisted all manner of prying, tapping and banging. Since taking the picture, I have successfully removed the swivel base (had to use an 18 inch pipe wrench on the holddown nuts), and the screw came right out. The nut feels good, believe it or not & the screw had a fair coating of grease on the threads. I got the handle freed up, too. Besides the stuck jaw, the collar or yoke is missing and the 3 screws that held it in place are broken off in the casting. I figure I can make a new collar, drill out the old screws and re-tap to a slightly larger size if necessary. Now if anybody just happens to have a collar lying around, I would happily pay the postage & maybe buy you a brownie or something?

My brilliant plan so far is to haul it over to my shop & hang it from a hoist by the moving jaw - just off the floor - and heat the throat with a torch to see if I can break it loose. Any better ideas?

[fla jim]

Thats a good looking hunk of iron. I'd soak it with some "Kroil" for a couple of weeks, before I attempted to do anything else.
That will make a real good vise. I have a 5" swivel jaw Wilton that I've had for over thirty years.

[Franz]

Cutter, that vise is an ideal candidate for ELECTROLYTIC derusting.
It's going to take some time in the tank, but electrolytic will remove the rust, and make disassembly simple.
I'd start by hanging the vise in the tank from the screw, and cook it for a while, then unscrew the screw.
From there, change where you connect and derust piece by piece.
We've successfully derusted seriously corroded hit & miss engines using electrolosys as part of the disassembly process.
Chances are that vise was tossed because the setscrew in the screw retaining collar came loose, and the owner didn't know how to tighten it.
NICE FIND!

[OlPilot]

Cutter, Wilton doesn't build 'em like that anymoreI That baby is cast steel, not worthless cast iron. Five years ago, that No. 6 sold for $1200, can't even guess what it would go for today. Today the vise market is flooded with Chicom junk and I think even Wilton has rolled over and may now build some there.

I agree with Franz and Jim about using a derusting solution or a penetrant like Kroil or Knock'erloose. I've gotten aircraft constant speed drives (CSD's) with coked and hooked splines separated from generators with Knock'erloose. That's about a $100K combination. I'd be inclined to use the derusting procedure first on your vise.

There's something else you should know. The back end of that model should consist of a cap which is retained by a pin. If you can find that pin and drive or drill it out, you should be able to remove the cap. You may need a slide hammer. That should provide better access from the back end for the derusting or penetrant to work. You can still buy parts for this model, but bunch your muscles when you ask the prices.

[boilerman]

toss it in bucket of diesel fuel for a week

[cutter]

Originally posted by OlPilot
Cutter, Wilton doesn't build 'em like that anymoreI That baby is cast steel, not worthless cast iron. Five years ago, that No. 6 sold for $1200,
You can still buy parts for this model, but bunch your muscles when you ask the prices.

Gawd-O-Mighty! I knew they were pricey but I had nooooo idea they were that high. I did a
google for it over the weekend & came across a thread that I thought described it & the guy
mentioned $800, but he never stated the model. I have another big old vise sitting over at my
shop/storage barn that I need to show you guys for an appraisal but it is not a swivel, just a
straight bench vise.
I've let it sit around for 2 or 3 years just because I didn't have a place stout enough to mount it.
Seems like it is a Parks or something like that, clocks in at about 57 pounds, IIRC. It is in very
good shape. We are actually getting a little snow down here but it's supposed to clear off
tomorrow & warm right back up so I'll try to go photograph it soon.

I had been carrying a pretty casual attitude towards the old Wilton with the notion of just
cleaning it up enough to use as an outdoor banger in my back yard, but sheesh! - at that
price I better start thinking of it as a working heirloom & restore it half way right. Looks like I
better start looking for some plate steel to make a stronger top for one of my steel tables, too.
Don't think I want to mount these things to a wooden bench with a plywood top. :p I also will
have to come up with something big enough & sturdy enough to soak old #6 in. A 5 gallon
pickle bucket or a Rubbermaid blanket box ain't gonna cut it with this old chunk.

Thanks for the comments, fellows. And especially that estimate, OP. Heck, I thought this was
about a hunnerd dollar vise at best, considering the condition.

[OlPilot]

Cutter, you could use it on a pedestal mount also. You could use old heavy truck wheels or discs for the base welded to 4" pipe. Franz can probably suggest what type of junkyard stuff to use. I think it might be more useable this way than on a table.

[Junk]

Ok, so I need to know. I'm in the process of picking up a used vise soon, hopefully, but wanted to get one for my brother.

The short version is he was hit by a drunk driver and lost a leg. He is spending a lot of his time with his hobby, which is metal working. I want to get him something that will last him an extremely long time and was going to get him a new Wilton 5" swivel Machinst vise linked CLICK HERE (http://www.mile-x.com/5swivel.html) , but are you saying that ALL of their vises are now crap? This $500 is a lot of money to me, so if it's not going to last then I'll get him something else. But if it's the same top quality they have made for years, then I will definitely get it for him. I'd go bigger if I could, but can't at the moment since I'm not working.

Thanks:confused:

[Jerry]

If you can't get it working it'll be worth its wieght in gold as scrap metal for the chinese.

[Franz]

Junk, it might just be my cantankerous nature, but I don't think I'd pay those people $500 for that vise.
If you go to Froogle on Google and type in 5" wilton vise
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=wilton+5%22+vise
you get over 1000 hits.
Notice that most of them don't use the R with a circle indicating it is a real Wilton vise. Evidently a lot of people have figured a way to make a copy and market it as a Wilton.
The real thing should show the registered trademark.

[Junk]

Thanks Franz. That's what has me worried. So based on everything I'm reading, no matter how much money I spend, it's impossible to get him a good vise any longer. Unless of course I find a used one sitting in a field somewhere and clean it up. This is really frustrating.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Junk
Thanks Franz. That's what has me worried. So based on everything I'm reading, no matter how much money I spend, it's impossible to get him a good vise any longer. Unless of course I find a used one sitting in a field somewhere and clean it up. This is really frustrating.

Junk,

My take on it is a little different than yours. I don't think it is impossible to get a good
new one although it is possible to buy new and NOT get an authentic one. I think what
you need is some communication with buyers of new ones and used ones to find out how
to get the good ones. Or IOW's, find a reputable dealer somehow, probably by
finding his customers.
And don't discard the idea of finding a used one, either through a dealer or an individual.
They are obviously out there and if I were your brother, I would appreciate the gift of a
used one even more than a new one. But that's just me; I like old things with character
better than new, maybe because I have the notion that the old tools carry the spirit of the
men and of the era in which they were made. Several people have been talking about
plant closings and how easy it is to find auctions and bargain liquidations these days.
Give that some investigation, too.

I also want to say that I am impressed by your generous intent in the matter & I hope you
don't abandon your quest. I think you just need to find a different point of view &
set a new "strategery". Give it a fair chance & your vise might just find you.

[Junk]

Thanks Cutter.

I'm having a tough time finding liquidations and sales but continue to try. It's almost become a part time job at this point. Will continue and am not complaining about it.

Will continue to search. Thanks.

[Ryel]

what is the big difference between the mechanics vise and the machinist vise? The price is double for the same size.

[vipermanz]

the machinists vice may have an index on it

[wood-n steel]

The Machinists vice is built to much closer tolerances when bolted down to the bead of a machine The fixed jaw will be perpendicular to the bead and the base will be parallel to the bead. It is used fore machining. Whereas the mechanics vise is used to hold parts while you beat the living **** out of them or weld sump thing or put the torches to that part that wont come apart.

[cutter]

If you read the descriptions, the machinist's vise is stated to be twice as strong
as the mechanic's, several differences like that.

[OlPilot]

On that web page that Franz previously referenced for vises, note that some are listed at 30 ksi tensile, others at 60 ksi. The 30 ksi ones are sorry-assed cast iron. Just try beating on the anvil of one for any length of time with your sledgeomatic and see what happens!

The 60 ksi vises should at least be cast steel. But it's not just a question of tensile strength differences here, there's another metallurgical parameter to consider called fracture toughness. Fracture toughness is measured on V-notched samples using a Charpy impact tester. Cast iron, with all the carbide precipitates in it, is brittle. It's hard and is wonderful in compression, but not in tension or where impact or cyclic loads are applied.

Some years ago, I had a problem with planetary gear trains failing in DC-10 lower belly compartment cargo power drive units. I called the manufacturer in Germany and asked their chief engineer what material he had selected for these small and very highly loaded gears. "17-4 PH" he replied. "Thomas", I said, "When was the last time you checked MIL-Handbook-5?" "Why", he said. "Well", I said, "If you don't heat treat 17-4PH (a precipitation hardening stainless steel), you've got peanut butter. If you do heat treat it, you've got glass. Neither one is suitable for impact loaded gears." I got him to change the material to a 300 series steel. Expensive and harder than the hubs of hell for wear resistance, but it also had fracture toughness. The problem went away.

Maybe someday the Chicom manufactures of drill bits, vises and such will learn that just because something looks the same, it ain't necessarily so. When they do wake up, and change to better materials, the prices are bound to go up.

---------------------------------------------------
I remember when sex was safe and flying was dangerous.

[Newb]

Well, based on everyone's feedback, I started pickup up the weekly newspaper to find a vise.

Found a local auto repair guy going out of business.

This is what I got (film getting developed, will post pics when I get them back).

4 vises, 1 a Reed that opens about 12", 2 Columbians 1 opens about 7" and one about 5", and one old Wilton that opens about 11". Also got a box of exhaust clamps and hangers. Older Baldor 6" benchtop grinder.

Total cost was $100. I'm jacked up. Thought I'd share to let you know the deals are out there. So don't give up.

[Franz]

Newb, look in your rearview mirror for flashing lights, the cops might be on you for highway robbery.
The Columbians are Wilton's second line, like Blue Point is SnapOn's second line.
Reed is an old machinery manufacturer.
You scored a lifetime supply of vises for $100-, now all you gotta deal with is the hernia you got runnin off with them.

[Banzaitoyota]

DAMN!!!! Good deal, I'll give you 40 for one of them.

[Newb]

Thanks Franz and thanks Banzaitoyota. Will post some pics when I get them. Banzai, wait till you see the pics, then let me know if you want any.

[Trevor]

lets see some more pics of this vice after ELECTROLYTIC derusting and of those vices you got at the sale newb

[Newb]

I'm getting my pics back tomorrow, so will post 'em up. They ain't pretty, but they will definitely last longer than I will or any of those chicomwaneeseposjobs out there.

Maybe TSP would work too for those of us that don't have the knowledge for electolysis. I didn't do that though. I just wiped 'em off and figured I'll use them as is.

[Franz]

TSP is a non contestant.
For electrolytic cleaning the electrolyte is Sodium Silicate.

[cutter]

Old man Wilton got dunked into the vat yesterday and started on the road to recovery, I hope.
This picture shows the results after about 18 hours into the rust removal process. Nastier looking
than anything I've done before, but then this was a really rusty old vise, too.

[Hickey]

Looks like some good soup. Will this process remove chrome too?

[Mike W]

You can add acid to water to speed up the process and take off chrome also.

[Newb]

Mike, what type of acid and how much? That looks like a nasty dish my wife would try serve up.

[Franz]

BOYS, do NOT add acid to this process, acid will neutralize the electrolyte.
Cutter the tank looks about right, and I hope you remembered to do it in a well ventilated area.
Come th think of it Cutter, it would be better if you just crate that vise up and ship it to me so I can give it a decent burial at the end of a bench.

[atucker]

Cutter,

Be patient - when Franz first posted this procedure over at Hobart (last May), my son had just got a car from a friend. The trunk had water standing in the spare wheel well. We recovered the scissor type jack that had been submerged for who knows how long. The thing was total rust. The screw type shaft was locked tight, wouldn't budge. I took it home and took my first stab at Franz's procedure. Washing soda was easy to find here at most grocery stores. My initial reaction was like yours - what a nasty mess. In about 24 hours the shaft was free. I was amazed at how the process worked within the threaded part of it that was rusted. I guess we could call it the screw and the nut - the internal parts that weren't visible when it was still locked up. I let it go for another 24 hrs. and it was pretty darn clean. My son and I were both amazed. Painted it and it works great. From the looks of your vise, it doesn't look like you need to be in any hurry. I don't know how long it will take, but just give it time.

Allen T.

[Newb]

I imagine while this needs to be done in a ventilated area, that care needs to be taken as to where it is done right? After all, anything that would touch the water would get a strong jolt, so if there's any squirrels or dogs running around looking for a free drink (or kids playing) they'd get a nasty surprise. Just want to make sure I have my basis covered. As soon as cutter gets done, I'm going to try it, so I'm itchin in my kitchen to try it.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Newb
I imagine while this needs to be done in a ventilated area, that care needs to be taken as to where it is done right? After all, anything that would touch the water would get a strong jolt, so if there's any squirrels or dogs running around looking for a free drink (or kids playing) they'd get a nasty surprise. Just want to make sure I have my basis covered. As soon as cutter gets done, I'm going to try it, so I'm itchin in my kitchen to try it.

Yep, it releases hydrogen gas, somewhat explosive when confined I hear. Don't care
to test it myself so I am doing this outside & that's also why I didn't start last week.
It rained off & on all week.
The water is nasty looking but really not all that caustic. I wouldn't want to soak in it
but I have to get my hands in it to move that chunk of iron around. Just wash it off right
away & no harm done. I have a ten year old dog & a dumbass of a 6 month old puppy. He took
one whiff of it and shied away immediately; this is the dog that never met a fluid he didn't want
to taste-test - before now. I'm not worried about him. Kids? - I don't know about & that's
another reason its in my back yard.

[cutter]

Okay, I got a couple of "in progress" pictures. I managed to wrestle the beast out of the
soup without straining my uterus or anything at about the 22 hour mark, yesterday afternoon. I
rigged up a crude tripod & used an old wire-stretcher from my antique tool collection to
temporarily suspend it by the moving jaw, hoping its own weight would begin to free up the slide.
No luck yet. Banging on it didn't help either. So I laid it down & got a few shots to show you.

Here is a side view:

[cutter]

In the picture in the previous post, you can see that I lightly wire brushed the ball shaped area
on the left side of the pic, on the moving jaw. That was with a few strokes using a hand-powered
brush so the rust is dissolving pretty fast. I thought this might encourage some of you who said
you are waiting to see how this turns out before you give it a try. Here is a closer look where
you can plainly see the process is working very well:

[cutter]

The best news of the 22 hour report is that I was able to get 2 of the 3 broken collar screws out
of the jaw. These are the screws that once held the retaining collar which keeps the main screw
locked into the moving jaw. (The collar is missing.) The top screw is broken off flush. Think of
the vise grips as being at the 9 o'clock position; the flush-broke screw is at 12 o'clock & three
o'clock is protruding from the casting. I'll leave the problematic one until I am finished soaking
the whole thing, then figure out how to get a grip on it. I was very happy to get the first two
out so soon.

[Newb]

looks great so far, just got back from purchasing my ingredients and got an old storage bin ready to go.

[Paychk]

Cutter to get the flush broken screw out, find some left hand twist drills and use a reversable drill. That screw will probably un-thread will you drill it.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Newb
looks great so far, just got back from purchasing my ingredients and got an old storage bin ready to go.

Hey Newb, I don't mean this to sound too elementary, but you do mean a plastic storage bin, don't you?

Paychk, I have never owned a left-hand drill bit. I doubt that it will take very much torque to
back that screw out by the time its soaked that long.

OlPilot, got any idea where I might find that missing collar, yoke, whatever? Also the handles
are missing from the hold down nuts and the end cap is long gone. I can eventually make
a collar that will do I think, but finding some day light to do it is a problem right now.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Franz
Come th think of it Cutter, it would be better if you just crate that vise up and ship it to me so I can give it a decent burial at the end of a bench.

I have given some thought to your offer, Franz, As scarred up as this old dog is, I'd be
embarrassed for you to have to pay the freight on it just to do that for me. How
about if I wait until I fly up to NY sometime in May & just slip it into my carryon?
I doubt anyone would notice. :D

[Franz]

Cutter, if you wanna slip it in the carryon that'll work just fine.
Don't forget to bring all the parts.

[Newb]

Yes, it's a plastic bin, thanks for asking.

[Mike W]

Cutter, 20 parts water and one part muriatic acid would work faster.

[Newb]

When we getting an update Cutter? Your wife didn't serve you that for dinner did she?

[OlPilot]

Cutter, this is the best address I could find. Don't know if they can help with parts. I tend to think Wilton has been gobbled up and is mostly offshore now.

WILTON TOOL GROUP
300 S Hicks Rd
Palatine, IL 60067
Phone: 847-934-6000
Fax: 847-934-6730

A few years ago, my boss bought parts for what appears to be an identical vise. I'll see if he can remember where he got them.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Newb
When we getting an update Cutter? Your wife didn't serve you that for dinner did she?

Newb,
The last thing my wife served me were the walking papers - ten years ago. ;)

Here is a combined shot of the vise to show some contrast & give you an idea of the rate
of progress. The top is the original condition, the lower was taken at about 44 hrs into
the process. I used a hand brush very quickly on it & discovered some of the factory paint.
If I were only interested in the appearance, I could probably finish it off with a wire wheel
at this point but the sliding section is still frozen. This picture was taken 2 days ago; I hauled
it out & checked it yesterday - still stuck. I was in a rush to leave for work so didn't bother with
more photos.

[cutter]

This a detail of the front of the sliding section at the 18 hour mark on top and the lower was
taken at about 44 hours. You can also see right down the gullet. I am beginning to doubt that
I will be able to budge the jaw until I either buy or fabricate the collar so I can use the screw
to back the jaw out. No time for that right now. However if anyone still doubts whether
the process will remove rust, this 2nd picture should be proof enough.

[cutter]

Thanks OP. I did a google search, found an email address that seemed to match, sent an
inquiry & got an "unable to deliver" back right away. When time permits maybe - very late
to work as it is. Good thing I own my own time clock.;)

cutter

[Jim314]

cutter, I'm really enjoying this thread and watching your progress on the vise.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Jim314
cutter, I'm really enjoying this thread and watching your progress on the vise.

Thank you, Jim.

I am enjoying it too despite not really having any daylight time to spend on it during the week. I can usually spare a few minutes in the mornings but rarely get in before dark. About all I have time for then is to clean the rebar off & fire it back up.

About that rebar: I started this project off using 3 pieces about 10 inches long, tacked together with coathanger as the anode connected to the battery charger's positive lead. Within hours, the coathanger had rusted in two. So I found a piece of rebar about 4 feet long and stomped it into a rough U-shape & welded two of the short sticks to it, pictured below. The short pieces already had a sharp hook bent on one end so they could hang over the sides of the tub & suspend the U several inches off the floor. This has worked much better but is probably still less sacrificial metal than optimum because the current flow really slows down after about 12 hours. The battery charger's meter is probably very inaccurate but still is useful as a reference in that it shows a current draw of about 7 amps at startup & that drops to about 2 amps after 10 or 12 hours or whenever the anode gets heavily coated, as in the picture. So the process needs some tending & can't just be left alone for a week at a time without having the efficiency really suffer. All I have to do is wire brush the rusty slop off the rebar and hook it back up in the tank. Its messy but quick.
Even though it is obvious, I feel I should stress that polarity is a critical issue in this process. Always connect the negative lead to the part you want to de-rustify and the positive to the sacrificial anode. Otherwise you will reverse the process and screw up the thing you are trying to save. Simply put, remember that electrons flow from negative to positive & carry the rust with them because positive attracts.

[pjt]

Showed this to one of the guys at work-we're ready to try it. What do we use for the solution? Soap powder? What kind? Is that what TSP is? (Is that Tri sodium Phosphate?)If it is,what am I looking for in the store(Namebrand?)
Question 2: Does this work for sheet metal? Will it be damaged if it stays in too long?

[cutter]

Originally posted by pjt
Showed this to one of the guys at work-we're ready to try it. What do we use for the solution? Soap powder? What kind? Is that what TSP is? (Is that Tri sodium Phosphate?)If it is,what am I looking for in the store(Namebrand?)
Question 2: Does this work for sheet metal? Will it be damaged if it stays in too long?

I am using Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda which differs from baking soda. It is sodium carbonate
rather than sodium bicarbonate. Here are links to a couple of the first articles I ever read about it a
year or two ago:

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm

http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/electrolysis.asp

They should answer most questions you can think of.

[fla jim]

OOPS!
Cutter, you got it reversed. The item your derusting (the negative connection) is the anode. The Rebar (the positive connection) is the Cathode. The Electron flow from - to+ strips the oxidation from the anode and deposits it on the cathode.
I've dealt with "Cathodic protection in water tanks, where an electric current is set up between an anode and the tank wall (Cathode) to keep the tank wall from corroding. If you go to inspect the tank, and forget to turn off the cathodic protection, It will light up your day, about 90 volts D.C..:blob2:

[atucker]

OOPS! to the OOPS! - I hope we aren't starting another GREAT DEBATE here:D. From my GuruNet online dictionary:

an·ode (ăn'ōd')
n.
1. A positively charged electrode, as of an electrolytic cell, storage battery, or electron tube.
2. The negatively charged terminal of a primary cell or of a storage battery that is supplying current.

cath·ode (kăth'ōd')
n. (Abbr. ka)
1. A negatively charged electrode, as of an electrolytic cell, a storage battery, or an electron tube.
2. The positively charged terminal of a primary cell or a storage battery that is supplying current.

Geesh - this is one of those that when you first look at it, you say WHAT?

The way I read this, the stuff in the tank are the electrodes and consequently the #1 applies in both cases. Oddly enough, I've worked in electronics for many years and this is the first time I've seen the #2 definitions, which are referring to the power SOURCE.

Amazing what we can learn each day :).

The more I read this the more I'm CONFUSED :D :D

Allen T.

[Franz]

SCRAP the REBAR, use old lawnmower blades if you want to go cheap. For those who are really serious, CARBON anodes cause the crud doesn't accumulate.
Polarity is real simple, when you have the polarity right you see bubbles rising from the object your derusting.
ARM & Hammer washing soda, 1 tablespoon per gallon of water.

[cutter]

Originally posted by fla jim
OOPS!
Cutter, you got it reversed. The item your derusting (the negative connection) is the anode. The Rebar (the positive connection) is the Cathode. The Electron flow from - to+ strips the oxidation from the anode and deposits it on the cathode.
I've dealt with "Cathodic protection in water tanks, where an electric current is set up between an anode and the tank wall (Cathode) to keep the tank wall from corroding. If you go to inspect the tank, and forget to turn off the cathodic protection, It will light up your day, about 90 volts D.C..:blob2:

AAAACK! I got the terminology reversed? :blush2: But at least the connections are correct.
That's what I get for posting before I wake up. Sorry about that.
This is what I don't like about the 15 minute limit on editing posts.
Maybe I can get Chuck to deal with this one for me. I used "anode" in three places,
I believe. Sheesh!

[cutter]

Okay, I have sent a message to Chuck asking him to correct my blunder but in a way that will
not make Fla Jim's & A Tucker's comments appear odd. In other words, I did not ask him to
simply substitute "cathode" for "anode" but to somehow red flag the post as containing the
error. If he chooses not to do it, I think you guys have probably covered for me anyway.
Thanks for catching me.

[cutter]

Hmmm, as Allen T. said, now I am more confused than before.
The article I was referring to
when I wrote my post also calls the positively charge part the "anode". I think maybe
my mistake was really in using either term in this case.

http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/electrolysis.asp

I give up, late to work again.:cool: You guys can figger it out & let us all know.

[Franz]

Breathe deeply Cutter. The confusion is probably due to most people writing about electrolytic derusting using the term anode or sacrificial anode when referring to the attracting element.
Hey, if it's on the internet it only has to be sorta correct some of the time.

[Ryel]

Originally posted by Franz
Hey, if it's on the internet it only has to be sorta correct some of the time.
or at least a good urban legend.:)

[fla jim]

In my previous life in the Navy. I Taught a four week Maintenance course for boiler tech's.
Part of that course involved Galvanic corrosion. I had to start with basics if anodes, cathodes, the nobility of various metals etc. I did this with a slide presentation. I was teaching mostly 19-20 year olds.This was back in the all male sea going Navy. No way to make corrosion exciting.
I had the training aids people make me a slide out of a pornographic picture ( imagine Paris Hilton, or Monica L.)
I would put the slide in the middle of my presentation ( about the time everyone was nodding off). I'd Just flash it for just a second, kinda like halftime at the Super Bowl. I'd hear a murmer "did you see that", and the class would be more alert through the rest of boring subject matter, wondering if there would be any more?

Anyway Cutter don't sweat it, the Guy at the old machine sight got them switched around while he was explaining it.
In an electrolytic circuit. The Anode is the negative. the Cathode is the positive. In the process iron oxide ( rust) is less nobel than steel, or iron. It becomes dissloved in the electrolyte. and is plated on the Cathode, in this case the rebar. If you let the procedure run for years the vise would disolve
It's the same process as the Zinc sacrificial anode on a outboard motor. The zinc is less nobal than aluminum. When the motor is in the water a galvanic electric current is established. the current causes the zinc to be disolved into the electrolyte (water) instead of the aluminum motor foot.
In the Cathodic protection system on water tanks A Dc current is generated with a power supply at about 90 volts with a couple of amps. a series of stainless bars are connected to the negative. this becomes the Anode. But a stainless alloy is a very "Nobel metal, and doesn't disolve very well, and will last a long time. The water tank wall is connected to the positive. This becomes the Cathode and as such won't corrode (disolve)
This is the 5:00 A.M. mister wizard show:waving:

[cutter]

Originally posted by fla jim
Anyway Cutter don't sweat it, the Guy at the old machine sight got them switched around while he was explaining it.
In an electrolytic circuit. The Anode is the negative. the Cathode is the positive. In the process iron oxide ( rust) is less nobel than steel, or iron. It becomes dissloved in the electrolyte. and is plated on the Cathode, in this case the rebar.
This is the 5:00 A.M. mister wizard show:waving:

All I really know or need to know is that the negative clamp goes to the vise & as Franz said,
as soon as the bubbles appear above it, the correct polarity is confirmed.
The old Wilton has been in the tub for 3 more days now with a steady light rain falling nearly
all the time. The positively charged REBAR (screw this anode/cathode stuff) must
be a real clumped-up mess by now. I noticed that the meter on the battery charger is
hovering down around 1 1/2 to 2 volts but there is still visible movement in the water so
there must be some action taking place. Later today I will haul it out again and see what we
got. And take some pictures.

I think it is about time to saw a slot in that 3rd broken machine screw & see if I can back it
out now, then take a few measurements & start making some semblance of a collar so I
can start using the vise screw to apply reversing pressure to the jaw. It just might not require
as much force to break it loose with a pulley-puller action. Hanging it by the neck &
banging on it seems to accomplish about as much as banging on a stuck pulley.

[Franz]

:angry: Whoa Nellie, FOOD FIGHT Snipe boy!
"If you let the procedure run for years the vise would disolve
It's the same process as the Zinc sacrificial anode on a outboard motor." WRONG:blob2:
You must have spent too much time watching that slide of the sacrificial Monica and swilling torpedo fuel.

The amazing thing about this process is that it won't continue once the rust is gone!!!:cool2:
BTW, it also works on corroded brass, just won't shine it up.

[Dman033189]

Can Someone tell me how to do electrolytic it looks handy to know how to do.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Dman033189
Can Someone tell me how to do electrolytic it looks handy to know how to do.

Here are links to 3 websites that should give you more information than you can use:

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/electrolysis.asp

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm

[cutter]

I hauled it out of the vat & spent half the afternoon trying to shake the slide out of the throat,
all to no avail. First I tried hainging it by the front jaw again & banging on it with a 2lb hammer
& a 2x4. Nothing. While it was in a more or less vertical position I kept the groove around the
slide filled with penetrating oil just for the hell of it.

Then my son & I tied a comealong
to a stump & chained the vise to a utility pole, trying to get as straight a pull as we could & used
a 4 foot cheater on the lever. Not a hair of movement.
So back in the tank it went.

There was some good news, though. I Dremeled a slot into the last of the broken collar screws and
backed it out with no effort at all. Once I got a few turns on it, I finished it with my fingers.
A combined shot of that is inserted below. I will paste together 2 or 3 shots of the present external
appearance of the vise in a following post.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. First the damned software said to make it no larger than 800 x 600
so I resized it to 800 tall 356 wide. Still too tall. I guess that means the maximum dimension
has to be the width? I'll have to redo the pasteup.
(3 minutes later)
Okay, here's 3 postage stamps pasted together:

[vipermanz]

now i just have to find something rusty...

[cutter]

At this point the external surfaces appear just fine to me. There seems to be nothing left that wouldn't
blow right off with a wire wheel. I guess I'll just leave it in the tub for another week & see what happens,
after all it's not like I'm desperately needing it to use to keep the locomotive from running over the sexy girl
tied to the tracks..... . .

[cutter]

I was sitting here, nodding at the keyboard & wondering how this thing could be so (John) Eff-ing
stubborn when it occurred to me that every time I took a picture right up the gut, there still seemed
to be a lot of rust. Then I realized that I had been laying it on the same side all week. So I began
to wonder if the shape of the inside might be trapping air & preventing the water from reaching
as much as 1/3 of the cavity? Sure seems likely to me.

So I took a little hand pump out there, purged the air of it and pumped water into the hole;
bubbles rolled out of both ends. Now this might not constitute an acceptable test in your lab but it
sure made me willing to roll that puppy over and do the pump thing again before going to bed.
So I did just that.

Dang! Now I have to get all sleepy again - that water ain't just dirty - it's cold!

[Franz]

:D Since I been playin this little rust removal game a bit longer than you have,:rolleyes: let me give you a little hint.
use one of those boltholes you just pulled the busted screws out of to make a second attachment to the vise.:cool:
When using this process on multiple part items that are stuck, you want a connection to each piece being derusted.
:angry: Rust sucks as a conductor of electricity.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Franz
:D Since I been playin this little rust removal game a bit longer than you have,:rolleyes: let me give you a little hint.
use one of those boltholes you just pulled the busted screws out of to make a second attachment to the vise.:cool:
When using this process on multiple part items that are stuck, you want a connection to each piece being derusted.
:angry: Rust sucks as a conductor of electricity.

Will do. Manana. ;)

Thanks.

[fla jim]

Hey Franz;
What cause the action to stop when the rust is off of the object. Is it the electrolyte your using? I would thing that as long as you have current flowing, whatever was connected to the negative terminal would continue loosing molecules, although at a lesser rate?

[Franz]

Jim, damned if I know, but probably the electrolyte won't carry iron molecules, only iron oxide.
Try it with a piece of clean steel, NO Conductivity.
The guy who really understands the reaction is Stovepoker, and he can write pages on it, if he ever shows up.

[Franz]

Here's a breif explanation of what is happening in the tank, complements of Stovepoker.

During the electrolysis, as a general rule ions are being replaced vs elements. So the Ferric Oxide is probably being converted to Ferric Carbonate.
Also any pollutants that are in the original water, and any
contaminants on the part being derusted will lend their ions to the mix.
There may be Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Chloride and who knows what else in there.
Basically there will be Hydroxyls, Carbonates, Oxygen,
Hydrogen, Sodium, Iron, and maybe some Calcium or Chlorine in the soup. All that will be lost will probably be Hydrogen and Oxygen; anything else will remain in the soup as soluble salts (some Sodium Carbonate and maybe Ferric Carbonate) or as solids which will either precipitate and fall to the bottom, remain suspended in the soup, attach to the anode, or remain on the surface of the derusted part.

I'm just a dummy who knows the process works.

[Franz]

Cutter, you may want to install an anode inside the tube of that vise, making sure it can't short out, remember the process works best when there is a line of sight relationship between the anode and the rusty object.

[pjt]

Wonder how it would work to take a piece of pvc pipe with a cap on one end, drill a bunch of holes (or cut slotts), stick the anode inside the pipe, and shove the pipe inside the vice???

[cutter]

Originally posted by pjt
Wonder how it would work to take a piece of pvc pipe with a cap on one end, drill a bunch of holes (or cut slotts), stick the anode inside the pipe, and shove the pipe inside the vice???

pjt,

I was thinking more like a short piece of rubber hose stuck in each end as insulators & the iron bar
slid through them. I had been entertaining that idea for several days. But I really do think I had been
trapping air inside all week.

[Newb]

This thread just keeps getting better every day.

Thanks for keeping us all posted on it. Gonna start mine on Tuesday if the rain stops.

[Paychk]

Another possibility is the hydrogen gas that is generated, is getting trapped in the cavity and pushing the solution out. Maybe a deeper bucket with the opening pointed up will solve everything.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Paychk
Another possibility is the hydrogen gas that is generated, is getting trapped in the cavity and pushing the solution out. Maybe a deeper bucket with the opening pointed up will solve everything.

!!! Hey now, that's a thought, too Paychk. Thanks.
I really don't have anything that might do except a 5 gallon pickle bucket (too shallow) or maybe a 30 gallon
garbage can. I am afraid the weight would over power either one. Have to give it some thought.

[Franz]

Well Cutter you could always fab up a nice frame to hang things in the garbage can.

[7018]

Well all this over a walton vice made me want one,I went looking!! found a Wilton 5" Combination Pipe & Bench Vise!! I ran a search on it and came up with this,
Wilton 5" Combination Pipe & Bench Vise
Item Number: WILC-2
Normally Sells For: $1097.95
Our Price: $783.61
Now this is a old one but in good shape,came from a junk store in Fla. I have 25.00 in it needs cleaning up alittle and some new paint. What you all think bout this one?

[7018]

:D Another pic only got 2 more!!

[7018]

IT would have been nice to find one the size of ur
s cutter But then u get what ya find!

[7018]

Well guys this is the last one.Thanks for looking and i wish u luck hunting a good vice!!!:cool2:

[cutter]

Originally posted by 7018
IT would have been nice to find one the size of ur
s cutter But then u get what ya find!

Very cool 7018!! Or as they say on the OWWM site "you Suck!".
That is their highest compliment on a great find. :p
How about giving us some dimensions? Looks like a 5" jaw width but was is your max opening, height,
weight & so forth. I wish there was some way of dating these things but I don't see anything to go on.

I left mine out of the goop today - got a supposed emergency plumbing call while I was fiddling with
it & had to take off. Thought I'd have time to stop back by but got home at 7 pm. I did have time to
drop by one of my favorite scrap yards to pick a piece of 5/8ths rebar to suspend though the center
and a couple of mower blades to try as "electrodes" to collect the rust. (I am not using the controversial
anode/cathode words any more.) I couldn't find any other scrap lying around here that I was willing to
sacrifice whan a couple of bucks for junk would take care of it.

[7018]

Well cutter they said 7 inch open but i opened it to 8 1/2 inches and it will hold 4 inch pipe they said however i havent tryed it as yet.got it out of the truck and took the pic.s so thats all i know so far. And i was hoping to find out how old this thing was! it has some weld splater on it but not much,all the jaw's look good not tomuch wear.But like i said wish it had been bigger,i'll stell be looking for a bigger one.And thanks for the reply

[Jim314]

Newb is right. This is a great thread. Kinda like a soap opera, you have to tune in everyday to see if anything new has happened to the vise.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Jim314
Newb is right. This is a great thread. Kinda like a soap opera, you have to tune in everyday to see if anything new has happened to the vise.

Oh WOW! A sopa opera! Maybe I can get my own TV show - "Monster Vice". Move along Jesse,
you had your run. :D And I do have a small development to report this morning.
I mentioned a few posts ago that I finally found a bar to insert into the cavity as an electrode to
try & get the rust out of the inside where the worst crud appears to be holding it stuck together. I
had to have some way to fasten a wire to it, so I ground the plating off a 1/4" bolt, ground a
flat on the end of the rebar and tacked it together to make a binding post. Then I slipped a
couple of pieces of heater hose onto it to insulate the bar from the vise. After I slid the rebar into
the hole, I used an ohmmeter to be sure the bar wasn't touching the vise body & found that I needed
extra rubber at the front end to assure that the bar didn't contact the vise.

Finally I hoisted it back into the tub, hooked it up and the bubbles started appearing in less than a
minute but the current drain dropped from 7 amps to about 1 1/2 in just a few hours. I checked on
it at about 4:30 am & turned the charger off because this drop in current usually means the electrode
is loaded with rust & I don't especially want it "growing" into the long nut & shorting to it; I just don't
know what the effect of that might be. I also didn't particularly want to dive into that slimy mess this
time of the morning to find out. By the way, if you're the impatient "type-A" sort of personality,
this process may not be for you. :p

[atucker]

Cutter,

If you're going to do a soap opera, do the soap opera and to heck with the regular job. We need action, not excuses.

IMPATIENT - NEVER :D

Not sure if you had the other "electrode" hooked up or not, but when I was playing around with this before, the current seems to be proportional to the electrode "area". Of course, the smaller the electrode, the faster they slime up and the current drops. This is process can definitely test ones patience. But it works!

Allen T.

[Franz]

Damn Cutter, that subliminal thought transferr process I did on you worked. I'm gettin better at it.

For you speed freaks, don't even think of hooking up the DC welder to get faster results. It is possible to boil the solution, and that really sucks in a plastic tank. NO, I didn't do it, and had I been the speed freak who did, I certainly wouldn't have posted that brilliant move.

I thought Soap Operas were supposed to drag along and keep you watching more commercials.
You too can have a supply of Uncle Franz's new and improved Secret Electrolyte concentrate shipped direct to your door, for only $99.95, plus shipping, handling and anything else we can think of. If you order within the next 15 minutes we'll include instructions for cooking hotdogs with an electric cord and 2 nails.

[fla jim]

Just don't cook your hot dogs on a "steel Bench":blob2:

[Franz]

Given where YOU work Jim, I wouldn't cook anything on your bench.

[Newb]

Cutter, just make sure if this continues to soap opera that you don't start doing this topless. Or at least if you do, please don't post the pics.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Newb
Cutter, just make sure if this continues to soap opera that you don't start doing this topless. Or at least if you do, please don't post the pics.

What you better hope is that I don't do it in shorts. :p


I decided it was time to hang this old sucker up to get rid of all the air & hydrogen gas pockets on
the inside, assuming that is the problem as Paychk suggested about 4 days ago. So I grunted it
out of the tub one more time and dollied it over to the log splitting area where I have an old
canopy frame set up that I can hang the war-stretcher from. I rinsed out a garbage can and
lowered the vise down so that it is just touching the bottom & started a fresh batch of soda water.
I brought another charger home so I can start the smaller parts in the other tub. They should clean
up fairly quickly.

[cutter]

Five minutes later all that nice clean water had turned milky with lots of green scum floating around
(11am Wednesday). I wonder if that might be grease from the threads? And just for grins I grabbed
my camera & took a 5am (Thursday) nite-vision shot. Look at all that fresh brown slime! Surely its
coming from the cavity because there just wasn't that much left on the outside. Of course, I switched
to a rusty chain & a foot or two of it is immersed now but still, there is a lot of rust in that water.

[cutter]

So now I have a question for the other members of the Monster Vise build team: Can anyone tell
me how to remove the long nut? It will wiggle up & down or side to side but it will not turn right or
left. I don't know if it is pinned or screwed in place?

[OlPilot]

Cutter my boss has an identical vise and he says it's pinned. He rebuilt his also. It may be difficult to find the pin.

[OlPilot]

Cutter, well, here's what I found out. There is a pin on each side approximately in the area shown, symmetrically located. They may be hard to find, so Bruce suggests polishing the area to shiney metal and using a cotton swab with nitric acid. The pin should show up. The nut is shaped as shown, but the nut is cast and can be broken with excessive force. (Bruce told me not to ask how he knew!)
The nut, at last count, costs $85!

[OlPilot]

P.S. forgot to mention - Bruce says the two pins are only nut retention devices. They don't take any rotational loads as the vise is tightened. The back flange of the nut is machined to engage the bore to provide anti-rotation.

Art

[7018]

On my search for a bigger vice than the 5 inch i found, I did find a 4 inch combo but the man wouldnt sell it!! he said it was his Dads and he's 55 so its old i guess!!!!!!!

[cutter]

Thanks so much OP. You are indeed a princely fellow. :)

I had found an exploded view of a similar model on the Grainger site but as you can see, it leaves a little
to the imagination. Last time I had the vise on the ground & let it dry off well, I saw a little dimple that made
me wonder if there might be pins involved. This drawing confirmed that (assuming the design holds
true for older models) but I was still not sure how far back on the cone to expect to find them. I got a
little daylight left today so I think I'll go hoist it up and take a look.

[cutter]

Originally posted by 7018
On my search for a bigger vice than the 5 inch i found, I did find a 4 inch combo but the man wouldnt sell it!! he said it was his Dads and he's 55 so its old i guess!!!!!!!

Did you think to ask him if he would put you in his will?:D

[7018]

Nope didnt do that but i mite !!! Good thinking cutter.

[cutter]

Originally posted by OlPilot
Cutter, well, here's what I found out. There is a pin on each side approximately in the area shown, symmetrically located. They may be hard to find, so Bruce suggests polishing the area to shiney metal and using a cotton swab with nitric acid. The pin should show up. The nut is shaped as shown, but the nut is cast and can be broken with excessive force. (Bruce told me not to ask how he knew!)
The nut, at last count, costs $85!

Hee hee hee! Got it out, OP. No problemma.
Pictures & details tomorrow, I have other things to do this evening.
Stay tuned, folks. As Franz says, this gives us a chance to do more commercials.

[7018]

This seems to be a never ending story!!!!!! :))

[Franz]

And if you order in the next 15 minutes, along with your supply of Uncle Franz's secret rust removal concentrate, for only $99.95 plus all the shipping and handling we choose to gouge you for, we'll include the special Uncle Franz measuring spoon at no charge.
Just to make our customer service better, we now take PayPal.
Let Uncle Franz service you tonight. (Bolt, don't you dare tell em)

[7018]

No thanks Franz's most of us good old boys from the South arn't that Dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[Franz]

Originally posted by 7018
No thanks Franz's most of us good old boys from the South arn't that Dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

:D Well, could ya tell me just how dumb yall are so I could adjust my marketing plan?:confused:

[Newb]

Hey Franz. I'm ticked. I guess I waited too long to get in on the special because I tried to send you the $99.95, but it kept getting rejected. Oh well. I guess I'll have to catch it next time.

C'mon now cutter. Don't keep us in suspense too long :D

[cutter]

Don't despair Newb, :p

I have several small parts of it underway at the same time but nothing finished yet. And the damned thing is still stuck together. However, I will report back pretty soon. Need to sell some more ads, though. :cool:

[Newb]

I think you need to hook up a live shop cam :p :D

[cutter]

Originally posted by Newb
I think you need to hook up a live shop cam :p :D

LOL, then I could run around nekkid and talk real ugly like it was the Ozzie show? Ummm, I don't think so. None of us are that bored yet. :D

Here is a problem I haven't ask you guys about yet because there is still so much remaining to accomplish with this attempted salvage operation. When I first notice the broken casting on the swivel base I really supposed it to be just a missing part of the rim on a 3-legged base because I see so many of them as opposed to 4-footed bases. Also because the location seemed at first glance to be out of position for a 4th foot. After a little study I have decided that was wrong; the 4th foot has been broken off & lost.

Anybody got any suggestions for patching this? Or do you think three mounting ears might hold up anyway?

[rusted]

Mount the base with the broken ear facing front. You may rarely pry UP from the front, but I generally pry DOWN on the vise from the front. Therefore, the broken ear is a non-issue. Also, you get closer to the table edge that way.

I have no idea about actually repairing it though.

[Franz]

After personally intervuing a Wilton this afternoon, up close & personal, I'd cut a new ear from flat stock, and everdure it on with the base assembled to the vise, and sitting on the bench.
If you don't have TIG available, it can be done DC carbon arc, reverse polarity I think.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Franz
After personally intervuing a Wilton this afternoon, up close & personal, I'd cut a new ear from flat stock, and everdure it on with the base assembled to the vise, and sitting on the bench.
If you don't have TIG available, it can be done DC carbon arc, reverse polarity I think.

Although the missing mounting lobe is somewhat a moot point until the stuck moving parts give up
and start moving, I have questions about this proposed repair:

What is everdure?
I do not personally know any local weldors who do TIG, nor do I have a carbon arc.
Do you think I could braze the strap to the base?

[Franz]

Everdure = phosphor bronz and you can run it with carbon arc on a DC machine, or even O/A.
That casting is definitely a miserable SOB in terms of what it will probably do if it is heated, at least in my opinion.

[OlPilot]

Maybe not as bad as you think, Franz. Those old Wiltons were 60 KSI cast steel, not the 30 KSI cast iron used today. As a result, with much finer grain and less carbide precipitates, they weld much better. I don't think Cutter will have any problem. But a little preheat and postheat couldn't hurt.

[7018]

Cutter i would preheat in the oven to about 280 or 300 then braze it. Cover in in dry warm sand and let it cool!! I've done a lot of cast that way it works really good!!! By the way do u know what the color of these vices were new?

[cutter]

Originally posted by 7018
By the way do u know what the color of these vices were new?

Thanks for the advise Rusted, Franz, OlPilot & 7018. My concern about using the base with the gap in it is
more about downward stress on the unsupported casting than it is about upward stress.

The biggest problem is my O/A rig is over at myshop, no oven is
available there but I guess I could rig
one up; there are a couple of old electric cookstoves somewhere back in the dust & shadows that I could
dig out. I got a couple of collector-type gas ranges in there that are more accessible but no gas service
to the building for 20 or 30 years, I'd guess. Come to think of it, I know where an old GE 27" drop-in is sitting
that I should gather up for parts but I have passed over it up 'til now because you can barely walk through
my building as it is. :mad: I dislike dragging the O/A rig home because I'd have to trailer it & then let the
bottles stand overnight before I could use them. On the other hand, I guess I should be keeping that stuff
here at the house anyway.

Paul, I uncovered remnants of a coat of paint a few days ago; it looked like plain old machinery gray to me
but here is a picture so you can sort of guess for yourself.

[Franz]

Wiltons were a bluish gray, almost Square D gray.
I think their secondary line, Columbia came from the factory red.

[OlPilot]

Cutter, just a thought on separating that monster. If you get your O/A going, you might be able to heat the outer portion so as to cause it to expand slightly. Be quick and use a big tip. Before the heat conducts through, and the inner gizmo expands, you might be able to knock it loose. I've done similar things, fact is, I use my O/A more for stuff like that than welding. Rust expands in volume about 10 times the volume of metal removed, so that's what's locking things up.

[Jim314]

This ain't no soap opera, it's Survivor. Man vs. Machine. Whose gonna last the longest, the frozen vise or the man trying to unfreeze it. Cutter wins and he gets a VERY nice vise. If the vise wins it stays locked up for ever and Cutter retains a year's supply of Arm and Hammer laundry detergent as a consolation prize.

[Newb]

OlPilot, if he heats the outside housing, what about hitting the inside with a blast of CO2 or dry ice? Maybe the heat on the outside and cold on the inside would be enough movement? Dunno, but it's my feable attempt to help.

[Franz]

Patience is the name of the game here, ok, maybe patience plus a Porta Power and an air hammer.
Now, if cutter can just get OP to ship him some of the dry ice foodpacks, he can cut em on his bandsaw to fit inside the vise tube, and shrink that while he puts the rosebud on the outer tube and jacks on the porta power, she just might brake loose.
Or, he could just cook it a few more days and knock it apart.
The longer it takes, the more commercials for Uncle Franz's secret derusting potion I can run.

[cutter]

I got off my feed for a few days & neglected to finish posting the details of the nut removal procedure. Ol Pilot
had posted a photo showing the approximate location of the 1/4 inch steel dowels that secure the nut inside
the body. Turns out they were located a little bit forward of where he was led to believe and once I really
looked for them, they were pretty visible and turned out to be easy to remove. You have to use a long punch
to drive one all the way through, forcing the other pin out then reverse directions and back the first one out the
side it was in. The image on the left shows the dowel or pin after a couple of light taps with a 1/4 inch punch.
I wound up having to use a transfer punch to reach all the way through but they really came out surprisingly easily.
And the nut is happily in very good condition.

[cutter]

Flash forward a few days to last weekend.

I hauled the vise out of the vat 3 or 4 days ago & let it dry off so I could make a cardboard template to use in
marking out a steel collar for the screw. I first peened out the rough shape of the milled surface of the vise
jaw then went by my shop/barn & used a couple of holesaws to cut out a big washer from 1/4 inch steel plate.
It is not perfect as my nearest sized holesaw was maybe a quarter inch smaller than might have been
optimum but it will do.
While I was there I scrounged up a few 3/16ths x 32 screws to replace the broken ones.

[cutter]

Being scattered as I am, I brought the washer back home & cut out the opening of a c-shape on my old Delta
bandsaw so the collar would slip into the slot on the head of the big screw and tried in for a fit up in the jaw.
I decided it would be better if I removed about 1/16 " from the thickness so I started grinding it down with a
5 inch grinder and polishing it out on a belt sander. Uncharacteristically , I had (and could find) both tools here .
This process took a couple of hours but I wound up with a bright, shiny piece. The image on the right shows the
difference in thickness and finish.

[cutter]

I cut a thin cardboard template & sprayed a coat of adhesive on it, laid it over the the milled surface on the
front of the jaw and peened in the screwhole locations and the inner margin of the milled surface & began
the agonizing task of locating & punching the screwholes, trying to keep them as close as possible to center
and trying to allow just enough space to allow the big screw to turn without binding. This went on for a couple
of hours before I decided to trust in "gumption flow" (see Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance). I have a
little Harbor freight-type of 50 dollar drill press piece-of-junk in my garage so instead of trekking back over to the
shop again, I used it. First I "carefully" selected a pair of drill bits off the top of my clothes dryer, squatted down
in the floor & drilled 1/16th pilot holes, then the 3/16th screw holes. I got an amazingly close fit but fully
expected to have to waller the holes out to get the screws to fit the screwholes in the jaw. :rolleyes:

[cutter]

To my total astonishment, the screwholes matched precisely to the vise & the collar bolted up like it was supplied
by the factory, no modifications at all. I just sat there on the ground staring at it for a little while, then strutted
around drinking coffee & bragging to my dogs for half an hour. Of course, I only had two screws that matched each
other so I had to go back to the shop & find a mate; while I was at it, I dug a little deeper and came up with a
set of spares, having a curious notion that I may break a set before this stuck jaw finally gets free. So, I
removed my new collar and the vise went back in the drink, and the big screw into the other vat. I guess I
could have bought a new replacement collar from Wilton for maybe $20 or $30? But you know, why not
have this $200 one which is about what I should pay myself for the time it consumed? :D

[Banzaitoyota]

But does it work yet?

[cutter]

Originally posted by Banzaitoyota
But does it work yet?

That depends upon what your definition of "is" is.
If you mean what you probably think I think
you think "works" means, then the answer is no. :D
That's why it's back in the gargabe can still hooked up
to the charger. Besides, I need to sell more ads
before it works.

[fla jim]

"Bill" Cutter!
Buddy, I think you need to get more sleep, even your dogs are starting to look at you funny
:dizzy:

[Franz]

This is your lucky day. For the next 15 minutes we're running a special on Uncle Franz Secret Rust Removal concentrate. If you're among the first 50 customers to call, we'll not only double the amount of rust remover concentrate we send you, we'll sell your Master Card number to a Hatian scammer at no extra charge.
Call NOW, don't get left out. Our toll free number is 1-800-FAT-Chance. Hurry, operators are standing by.

[Newb]

Hey, I dialed that 1-800-FAT-Chance and got some chineese speaking man answering the phone as Hellof and thank you for calling Hobart's Offshore Factory :)

Great collar Cutter. I'm going out to buy a new couch so I have a proper seat to see how this ends.

Franz, will I get my remover next week, or do I wait the typical 6-8 weeks for shipping? I will make sure to hold my breath out on the front stoop. :)

[OlPilot]

That vise is hung up like two dogs except unfortunately a bucket of water won't work. But I still think the O/A trick with a rosebud might work. The reason is that iron oxide is a lousy thermal conductor compared to cast steel. So you ought to be able to apply a good amount of heat to the outside before much heat can transfer through the rust to the inner piece and cause it to expand. Heating the outer and chilling the inner sounds good, but it would be tough to figure out how to chill that inner piece with CO2, R-134A, etc, without pulling the heat away from the outer piece, so I think I'd just stick with heating the outer section.

I'd still give Uncle Franz's magic potion more time to work, but if it doesn't or you loose patience, then it'll be time to call in the O/A heavy artillery. That's 60 KSI tensile cast steel, low on the Rockwell C-Scale, so there no need to worry about knocking out heat treat (there really isn't any) with O/A. Just don't melt the critter!

[cutter]

Sigh.
There is no progress to report. I left it in the barrel 4 more days just changing the electrode from time to time.
Got a few more ounces of rust & debris so I finally hoisted it back out yesterday afternoon and tried pulling it apart
with the comealong. No dice.
Then I hauled my little torch back there and tried a little heat but I ran out of day light so I just left it with a
few hundred pounds of pull on it; it didn't look any different this morning. I doubt this old torch
(another story, by the way ;) ) is big enough to supply enough heat.

However, I did dream about it this morning just as I was waking up. In the dream, I had reassembled it and
cranked it apart with the screw & that is probably worth a shot because the screw exerts a straight line pull
whereas the chains & comealong pull at an angle sufficient to cause it to bind. I guess the worst that could
happen would be that I might break the collar screws and have to fish them out - again.

[7018]

Well its worth a try cutter! like u say u can only breakthe screws,but who knows mite work!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Franz]

Ane here we see the disadvantage of using cheap substitutes for the Genuin Uncle Franz Rust Disolver. yes, substitutes do work, sometimes, but your results won't be the same as using the genuine original Uncle Franz secret formula Rust Disolver.
WARNING, due to the price of fuel going up, Uncle Franz may not be able to offer the Secret Ingredient at our currently low outrageous prices. Order your kit now, before price increases take effect.

[cutter]

That reminds me, I need to prepare your invoice for the month. I'll try to do that by tommorow.

[cutter]

Well, so much for that Sunday morning dream; some dreams are just damn lies, I guess.

here's a quick rundown on what happened Sunday.
I installed the nut & screw & collar, tuned the torch up for better heat and did the best it would do to heat up the outer case with the screw under pressure at all times. Finally I applied a 2 pound sledge to the handle to try to break it loose & I was rewarded with 3 bent collar screws and a slightly warped collar. So I flatted the collar back out by simply reversing the screw and tried 3 more screws; this time 2 of them slipped the threads before I gave up. I guess I may have to retap the screwholes before this is over. I also tried standing the vise on end and squirting 3 in 1 penetrating oil on the inside for an hour, reversing it & applying it to the other end for an hour or so, again with no noticeable effect. So I polished up the electrodes and dropped her back in the water for a few more days.

Monday I bought a can of PB Blaster to try next time I haul it back up to the surface. It probably can't penetrate very deep but I guess every little bit may pay off some day. This morning I re-read every post in this thread & was reminded that I set out at one time to insert the rebar through the hole to try to get more action inside but once the vise went into the garbage can that idea sorta got lost; actually it just wasn't practical until I removed the long nut because the rebar tended to short out to it.
But since the nut is out of the way, I could try that approach again.

This has been going on now since March 2nd, almost a month. We have all been able to see that electrolysis is a heck of a tool for removing external rust & crud. I gotta remember that the cylinder of the front jaw extends more than a foot into the main casting; that's a lot of area for the internal rust to occupy so it's pretty easy to understand why it takes so much time to "thaw". Even though the rust is pretty much gone from the outside surface, it still is accumulating on the electrodes just as fast so I can tell there is just about as much action taking place as ever. So, it simply has to be making headway. Maybe that's what the dream was trying to tell me. :p

[Newb]

I got a chance to reload the snacks during intermission. Have my credit card ready for more of Franz's solution.

[david_r]

cutter,
There is a small gap on the jaws, right? Why not apply some judicious force to try and close the vice? Seems to me when I'm trying to break stuff appart that pounding on it does it better than pulling. I might even try a little pounding along the body while the screw was in tension. The vibrations may be enough.

Of course, if you crack it you're on your own.

[cutter]

Originally posted by david_r
cutter,
There is a small gap on the jaws, right? Why not apply some judicious force to try and close the vice? Seems to me when I'm trying to break stuff appart that pounding on it does it better than pulling. I might even try a little pounding along the body while the screw was in tension. The vibrations may be enough.

Of course, if you crack it you're on your own.

:D

Believe me, all these things have been tried; I positioned a wooden block in front of the jaw & pounded it with an 8lb. sledge without a hint of movement other than propelling the whole thing gradually across the yard. The sides are already peppered with hammer marks made while the jaw was under pressure in both directions.

I even dreamed about it again last night, seeing it slip apart with virtually no effort. And I am the one who never remembers dreams anymore.

I am now pondering somehow removing the cupped piece at the back end to expose that end of the cylinder, or whatever it is called, so that I can contemplate some way of rigging up a jack or portapower to try to squeeze it backwards from that end. But that piece is also locked in & there is virtually nothing to grab or pry on to try to get it loose. I suspect it has to be pressed in so that presents a major undertaking in itself.

This is the cone I am referring to: the cylinder end is immediately to the right of the hole that takes the locking pin for the long nut. I also think that removing that piece would allow for better electrolytic action of the insides of the vise.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Newb
I got a chance to reload the snacks during intermission. Have my credit card ready for more of Franz's solution.

Re-reading all these posts reminded me Newb - you said at one point that you had assembled the materials
to start your own derusting project. What's happening with you?

[Jim314]

Maybe you should haul it up on the roof of the house and drop it on the driveway. Or if you don't want to harm the driveway, just ship it to me via UPS and I'll turn around and ship it back. If UPS can't break it apart, no one can.

[Franz]

Cutter, take a 401 air hammer and long taper chisel to the groove, and gently remove that tail piece, then make up a driver that fits in where the nut was, and give it a beating with the air hammer.
Air hammers break more loose than sledgomatics.

[Bolt]

Thought about a hydraulic press?

75 tons aughta do the trick.

[Newb]

Originally posted by cutter
Re-reading all these posts reminded me Newb - you said at one point that you had assembled the materials
to start your own derusting project. What's happening with you?

hmmm, good question Cutter. I 'm having so much fun watching you I almost forgot about my own.:D

LOL, no, I will get to it, but I just bought an old milling machine and am picking it up tomorrow. Been a little focussed on that lately, well that and trying to find another job while reducing credit card bills so I can buy more of Franz's stuff.:D

[cutter]

Originally posted by Franz
Cutter, take a 401 air hammer and long taper chisel to the groove, and gently remove that tail piece, then make up a driver that fits in where the nut was, and give it a beating with the air hammer.
Air hammers break more loose than sledgomatics.

Franz, this is getting scary :p :D :cool: .......

because I was busy driving off the tail piece at the same time you typed this, using a stick of rebar & a hammer inside & using a screwdriver as a wedge on the top part outside. I could get an angle from the front to the bottom of the tailpiece only but because of the shape of the inside I couldn't make contact with the top parts of it. That's why I had to use the screwdriver to pry with on the top & it scarred up the lip somewhat. The damage is only cosmetic & negligible but I sure hated to do it. Just didn't see any way around it at this point.

I got this done just about dark & cleaned off a bunch of black goop using PB Blaster as a solvent before I took a picture of the end of the cylinder, posted below. This sucker was made with very little play so there is small wonder it could rust shut so stubbornly. I'll get better photos later. It is covered by liquid but there is a keyed guide on the bottom of the casting & a corresponding slot milled into the sliding part (not really very visible in the photo because of the Blaster). To use an air hammer safely, I will need a steel slug about the same diameter as the cylinder to act as a bushing driver - no way am I going to hammer directly on the piece - and it will need a groove to match the keyway.

I don't know for sure if this was a significant step or not, but it sure did feel good to finally have something actually come apart for a change. :D My feeling is that this is going to help a lot.

Oh phooey, I didn't insert the picture. Next post.

[cutter]

Here is the cylinder end exposed.

[cutter]

Oh what the hell, I can take pictures at 4am just about as good as any other time. :) Here is the keyway and you can see how tight this thing fits together. As my brother used to say, "fits like Maw & Paw". So I soaked it in Blaster again & came back in the house.

[INTP]

Pretty soon, I'm going to start dreaming about it, too. This is a really fun thread to follow.

[Bolt]

So Cutter,

When are you going to give up and put it out by you're dumpster? I'll figure out where you live by that time and come by and pick it up.

Or, you could just admit defeat, and let me know, I'll come pick it up personaly.

[7018]

I think u should put it in a press and apply some heat,Sure hope u get that thing apart!Would be nice to see it working again.

[cutter]

Thanks for all the comments & advice, guys. This whole thing has been lots of fun for me & I can't get over the amount of interest this thread has stirred up. 4,000 hits and counting? That's phenominal. Your participation has made this so much more enjoyable for me; I feel like I am the custodian of some kind of historical restoration project where the world is watching and pulling for the old vise to come through a crucial surgery or something. LOL, the only thing is I feel like I can't quit no matter what happens now; you would all never forgive me so failure is unthinkable. :p

Paul, I would love to be able to put it in a press but I can't quite imagine how to jig up to do that; the thrust would need to be in a straight line and that means I would have to build something to hold the main casting by the stationary jaw assembly. I've never seen a small press designed to accomodate such a riggin'. That would be another project in itself.

So I am going to try to implement Franz's suggestion & use an airhammer to try & shock it loose. Last night on my way home I stopped by the shop/barn & cut a steel disc out of 1/4 inch plate to mount directly against the back side of the slide, and grabbed an airhammer while I was there but it was way after dark before I got home. So first opportunity I have, I will give it a go. It seems like that if I can ever get the thing to move at all, the rest will be downhill.

I made a discovery while I was at the barn. Watch for new thread "coming soon to a theatre near you" about a Baby Wilton machinist's vise. :D :D :D

[rusted]

LOL more vices (sic)? This is the kind of thread that makes a msg board. I can't wait to see this baby in action.

[Franz]

Go gently Cutter on the trigger of the air hammer, and remember,
Always use Uncle Franz products with the secret ingredients.

[Banzaitoyota]

Can I have the Uncle FRanz Miracle Powder Franchise for the SE region of the USA?

[Franz]

Only if you can slide over to Marbury, Al and dispose of my wife's daughter. I don't care what you do with her, as long as she completely disappears.

[Banzaitoyota]

I do have access to a crematorium :)

[7018]

Well cutter try not to keep us waiting to long. I don't know about the rest of the guys,but i would like to see that vice working!!!!

[JohnDeere]

Hey, I had just took a look at this post today, and what a deal.... We have that exact same vice bolted to the work bench in our shop..... Its brand new to.... That is one heck of a vice if ya get it workin....... I cant wait to see her... lol Good luck Cutter!

John Deere

[vipermanz]

Originally posted by Banzaitoyota
I do have access to a crematorium :)

hmmm, not sure we want to know........:D

[OlPilot]

Hey Guys, it's a vise, not a vice. We all have our vices and some people, like Bill Clinton, have more than the normal share.

[7018]

OlPilot this has become a vice, why else would we keep coming back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Newb]

I'm waiting for the tshirts and dvds to come out.

[rusted]

If there's not an update soon I'm gonna have withdrawls.:dizzy:

[Newb]

I think it's intermission time :)

[7018]

nope not yet lots more VICE"S to see!!!!!

[OlPilot]

If Uncle Franz's Magic Derusting Potion doesn't work, there's always C-4, as long as the ATF snoops aren't skulking about.

[Franz]

And NOW, a word from our sponsor, Uncle Franz's magic derusting system.
This week, we are offering a sale on our magnificent carbon anodes, for those who really want to see this process run around the clock without having to clean anodes.
Only a limited supply is available, so we will be offering the kits to existing customers first. Contact your Uncle Franz sales representative today, and have your customer number handy.

[cutter]

Originally posted by rusted
If there's not an update soon I'm gonna have withdrawls.:dizzy:

Gosh guys, sorry I have neglected you. But there has really been nothing positive to report lately.
Last weekend was an experiment in trying to come up with a way to put some real linear pressure on that locked jaw from the backside. Then the rains came again & have persisted off & on ever since. However, I have picked up a piece of I-Beam to use to secure the vise to while I try to jack it apart. After a couple of dry weekdays when I don't have time for the Wilton, the rain came again tonight & is forecast for the weekend. So I don't know whether I can make any real progess or not. Meanwhile, it is stored in the blue garbage can in the faint hope that something good can still come of it. If and when I make any progress, believe me I will be telling the world.

I do want to say that I really appreciate your continued interest in this project. We have all had a lot of fun with it and it has been a real education for me. I had used electrolysis to remove rust from a couple of smaller, less rusty objects in the past but nothing this large nor anything with so much ancient rust. I was surprised how quickly the outside cleaned up and almost as surprised at how stubborn the rust has been in the tight spots where it remains seized.

Caps and t-shirts are very do-able; I actually have some experience with advertising specialties way back in a previous life. But I am thinking of also offering imprinted panties for the gals in your lives; I would only sell petite, small and mediums so you could be sure to buy the one that would actually fit if she really is one of those sizes but more importantly, you could be assured of getting a size too small for that more "mature-sized" woman in your life. It's never a bad idea to let her think that you see her *** as being just right.

[vipermanz]

maybe you should send it to franz, this thing is becoming a legend here!!!

[7018]

:D well about those panties im not showing that post the the wife!!!!lmao but its a good one ;)

[fla jim]

that brings back memories.
Back in my previous life in the Navy. I was on a supply ship. (USS Niagara Falls AFS 3)
When we would Replenish other ships, We had a sign the ship would display "WELCOME ALONGSIDE HOW CAN WE SERVICE YOU"
Well someone got the bright idea to have some "Panies made with that logo to give to girlfriends. These were sold in the "Ships store".
When we would go ashore overseas in the Philipines, all the local girls would ask if we could get them "NIAGARA FALLS"panties.

[rusted]

Well Jim, maybe we can make a pair of panties in tribute; sayings like 'Tight as cutter's vise' or 'rusted shut from neglect'... On second thought...

[Franz]

Cutter, please tell me you're keeping that vise submerged in Magic Solution.

Jim, in the New Modern Navy those panties would definitely get you in deep sh!t for sexual harassment.

Rusted, I ain't touchin those lines with a 14 foot Serb, let alone a 10 foot Pole.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Franz
Cutter, please tell me you're keeping that vise submerged in Magic Solution.



Yup. That's what I meant by:
"Meanwhile, it is stored in the blue garbage can in the faint hope that something good can still come of it."
And the charger is still hooked up.

[Banzaitoyota]

Nice target you sailed on.

[Jim314]

Cutter, someone beat you too it. They're already on sale on the internet.

[7018]

Shouldn't they have worded it My Vice is like cutter's vise!!!!

[Newb]

By the time I get to Phoenix I'll be sleeping.

This ain't no soap opera any more, it's like my wife torturing me with the Thornbirds or something :) just kidding, but any updates?

[7018]

I just think he's taking a break VICE"S can get tiring sometimes :)!!

[cutter]

Ok, ok. :D

The reason there have been no updates is because my last 2 weekends got hijacked by my daughter. I had to work on her old house she has under contract to sell. I finally finished my part last Sunday night so I hope to get back to the vise this Saturday.
It has been continuously under the soup and hooked to the charger ever since my last report. We also had 2 weeks of below normal temperatures and rain off & on - very unusual for the area. I simply do not have any time for it on weekdays other than to change or clean the positive electrode.

The plan for this weekend is to somehow chain the vise and a bottle jack to an I-beam and try to push the jaw out from the back. This is going to take considerable rigging to get it done in such a way as to keep the 2 parts lined up straight under that much pressure. It's what I have referred to earlier as a poor man's hydraulic press. I also plan to heat the main casting if necessary & unless the 2 or 3 weeks of further de-rusting has done a lot of good, heat will be required

[7018]

Well here's wishing u all the luck in the world cutter hope u get it apart!!!

[rusted]

For using hydraulic jack and I-beam to loosen:

It seems if you lay the jack and vise horizontally on the *ground*, cement driveway for example, and then chain them to an I-beam as straight as possible, you could lay another board or beam over the length of the assembly then drive your truck up on there and keep it straight while you jacked it apart.

OTOH if the thing let loose with 5 tons of pressure on it, it's liable to shoot iron parts through your vehicle.

This from a guy who has used a 98 2500 Ram diesel 4x4, a receiver hitch, job chain, and an oak tree to compress struts. :D Dad backs into the tree and holds down on the throttle while I chain the strut closed. Adrenaline is good for ya!

[Bolt]

But not all jacks will work laying down flat.

Or maybe it's just mine, with not enough oil in them.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Bolt
But not all jacks will work laying down flat.

Or maybe it's just mine, with not enough oil in them.

I already fixed that problem, Bolt. Low oil. Just lay it down & fill it until it tops off & it'll work fine. The biggest problem is alignment and keeping it that way. I am looking forward to it. Hope nothing comes up to interfere tomorow.

Rusted, I think we'll leave the truck out of it. There's enough to worry about as it is, especially since the vise has no flat planes to work with & responds to the pressure by trying to tip & bend out of the way. I already got the feel for it (sort of) by trying to strap it to a board a couple of weeks ago. I knew it wouldn't be rigid enough but it showed me which way it wanted to go. I decided I couldn't use the bolt holes on the base of the vise because it would just break them off unless I managed to get it cradled almost perfectly - not likely to happen under these conditions.

[7018]

All jacks will work laying flat it u put the pump side down. And Cutter im sure ur a smart enough man to get it done with hurting ur self or someone or something else!!

[cutter]

I really don't know where to start with this post. I have been trying to get motivated for 2 days but I lack inspiration to do it justice, so I guess I'll just do it quick & down & dirty.
As you may recall, I set out a week or so ago to build a poor man's press to try & force the jaw out from the back side. Here is what I came up with.
In the first place, the shape and design of a vise does not lend itself to placement in a conventional hydraulic press. It just don't fit, so I decided the idea was to somehow tie the thing in place on a beam, hold it in alignment and block a jack into place behind it in the fastest & cheapest way I could. It took a couple of attempts to get this:

[cutter]

A couple of notes about the above photo:
The 4 ft galvanized pipe in the forground is the cheater I used on the handle. I have barely gotten the tension on the chains in that pic, just enough pull the top chain into a fairly straight line. When the pressure increases the little jack tilts into a straighter alignment than is shown there.

I had cut another steel 3" circle to fit against the back of the jaw's slide as you can sort of see in the photo below - for the jack to push against. Since there is a steel guide in the bottom of the main casting & a matching 1/2" x 3/8 " slot in the bottom of the slide, I had to cut a notch into the bottow of the disk & keep it aligned with the guide. I welded a stick of all-thread to it and ran it all the way through the jaw and locked it with a nut & washer on the front of the jaw. You can see the all-thread in the top photo.

[cutter]

So, I started jacking until I was lifting the entire thing off the ground and then got out the torch & started heating the outside casting, starting with the area around the front of the hole that the front jaw slides into, then along the lower part just above the base. By the time I worked the flame all the way back & around the other side to the front, I was boiling rusty gunk out of the front opening. Still no movement.
Darkness was fast coming, I was about ready to give up for the night & thinking of getting bigger jack.
Here is a picture of the heated area, Th discoloration is really just burned rust powder which coats the vise as part of the derusting process. Brushes off easily - not a problem. You can see the rusty water under the front jaw, on the beam.

[cutter]

It was a dark & stormy night. A pirate's ship appeared on the horizon. A shot rang out, the beautiful woman screamed - oh, sorry - that's a different thread.

So I studied my situation, wondering more heat would help? Doubtful since the water boiled out of the front, I had probably heated the slide, too. So maybe it would be best to just leave it under the maximum pressure & hope the expansion & contraction would work some sort of magic? So I got a piece of 1/8th inch plate and positioned it so as to protect my shins from flying chain should something give and put on my gloves.

[cutter]

I put on my gloves, positioned my feet, slipped the cheater onto the handle and gave it my best heave - and broke the f***ing jack.
:D

The shackle assembly, pump/piston lay on the lower rail fo the beam along with half of the knuckle.

[cutter]

So all that happened last Wednesday night. I have been busy since then but today on my way home, I picked up a bigger jack. It's a Larin, a Chinese thing with a missing pin that holds the same shackle-type pump assembly but that's easily fixed (already done in fact) but the ram is about twice the diameter of the little orange one so maybe & I can get a few more PSI out of it. It has an advertised lift of 20 tons; maybe it might be a valid ten? So maybe this weekend, the journey will take a better turn.
Don't miss the next thrilling episode when our guest may be famous pop psychologist Dr. Phil who will tell us how to cope with hopeless situations and doomed projects. :D

LOL.

[Jim314]

Cutter, for someone who couldn't get motivated to start the update, you sure do tell a spellbinding story. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at the end.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Jim314
Cutter, for someone who couldn't get motivated to start the update, you sure do tell a spellbinding story. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at the end.

LOL. I didn't either, but I opted for laughter. It's so much less expensive. I gotta go take a nap now.
BTW, I'm gonna miss that little orange jack - had it around for over 20 years; it would lift the front end of my old Blazer.

[7018]

Well cutter u done ur best!1 really liked ur post LMAO about the jack!!! But i'm sure u'll get the job done :)

[Franz]

Cutter, Dr Phil's office just called, and they said yer makin a mountain out of a molehill.
That little orange jack has obviously been repaired before, we can all see the brass in the picture, so ya can put it back together again. At least you didn't bend the ram or shatter the top of the ram housing the way most Chink jacks do under a load.
Now, if you just build a base onto that complex fixture, you can turn the event into a combination vise jacking and anvil tossing event. Of course, setting the jack verticle and throwing a blanket over the top would probably eliminate the anvil toss factor.
If you run out of hydraulic jacks you can always use scaffold leveling screws.

[rusted]

^^^ :laugh: ^^^

Cutter, if it's any consolation, thanks for bringing drama to my ho-hum life.

[1911Man]

Hang in there Cutter! This thing has become an American epic.:)

[Paychk]

Cutter

I recently went through something similar to this at work, cept it was a 2” X 12” long pin stuck in a hydraulic cylinder on a man lift. Every one was dreaming up ideas to un-stick it. The “Old Man” of the shop stated, “the only way it was coming out, was with wedges and heat”. So us young-uns all went ???? And he proceeded to show us “The Secret”. He had us weld a lug across the end of the pin and after it cooled, he put two wedges (10” long X 1¼” thick) between it and the boss it was sticking out of. He proceeded to put a “bind”, as he calls it, on it with what I call Thor’s Hammer (sawed off 10# sledgehammer). After about two minutes of Thor’s Hammer, the lug popped off and flew about eight feet in the air. Well, the welds were ripped right out of the end of the pin. So round two started with a ¾” thick lug verses the previous ½”. After that cooled, again a bind was put on it and then he fired up the largest rose bud I’ve ever seen, and in a matter of minutes the cylinder casting was a dull red. More of Thor’s Hammer and the pin started to move. An unbelievable amount of rust came pouring out of the joint between the mounting bosses and the pin. The pin bottomed out as, unknown to us, one end was slightly bigger than the other was. So we drove it back to it’s starting point and proceeded to wedge it back one more time. After that, we could drive it out from the body. I’ve never seen something that could rip out welds by the root and those wedges sure had the power to do it. I’m a believer in wedge technology now, if your jacks don’t work, maybe you could set up a wedge to push the vise apart.

[atucker]

Geesh - for this being a welding forum, you guys missed the best part. THE JACK BROKE BEFORE CUTTER'S WELDS. Think what he would have been in for if one of the welds broke :D :D.

Allen T.

[Hickey]

Originally posted by atucker
Geesh - for this being a welding forum, you guys missed the best part. THE JACK BROKE BEFORE CUTTER'S WELDS. Think what he would have been in for if one of the welds broke :D :D.

Allen T. I was thinking the same thing. At least you have proved your welds are good.:cool2:

[Banzaitoyota]

keep it coming Cutter!!!

[cutter]

Well, it's been another week now so I have just about recovered from the last attempt to salvage this beat up old bahs-turd of a vise. Lessee, where was I when I quit last time..... go back to page 10 ....... aw crap! I thought I had posted the episode after the jack destruction. Damn damn damn, I have twice as much to report as I thought!
Well, ok. First of all, I had to find another jack, as you may recall. That required a little tinkering to get it to fit into the rig because of the extra length & of course I had to block it up less to reach the center of the slide. But I finally got it lined out and heeded Franz's advice about throwing a blanket over the chains to catch any broken parts that might get flung out. Actually, it was the canvas cover for an evaporative cooler that I had serviced out for the season earlier last week. Now, this was all taking place last Saturday, the 24th of May.
First of all, here is a sidebyside picture of the old & new jacks; you can see that there should be some more power even if the big one is Chinese. It uses a smaller pump & much larger ram so that each stroke results in about half as much travel as the little orange one. And it works about like using a smaller pulley on a motor shaft in that it takes less pull to operate the jack handle.

[cutter]

Now, there is another detail that I need to make clear because it factors in later. I had cut a 3" disc from 1/4 inch plate to place between the sliding tube of the front jaw and the ram of the jack to protect the tube from marring and also because the ram of either jack is smaller than the open area of the tube. Then, as I think I have mentioned, I welded a stick of all-thread to the disc and ran it through the vise to secure it in place because it had to be notched in the bottom to miss the guide in the main casting.
Keep this in mind for later reference. Here is that disc or buttplate positioned in the arse end of the vise.

[cutter]

So that is what I am jacking against. And here is what the new jack looked like ready to pump that old vise apart. Right?

[cutter]

So here we go, tugging on that 3 foot cheater pipe and peeking under the canvas ever 4 or 5 strokes. (I know I called it a 4 foot cheater earlier but I lied. Or it was a typo. I'm not under oath, am I?) I finally got the thing so tight with no visible effect that I was willing to pack it in for the day. I tossed the cavas over to the side. I sat there to catch my breath & ponder the meaning of such a life, whilest studying the stupid, stubborn old POS. Finally I got on top of the handle and gave it one more pump and Blam! Something gave. Lets see if you can spot it: :) (Hint: look for the stray glove, it is there on purpose.)

[cutter]

Yup, it's pointing to the broken bolt with nut that had been holding the chains to the beam on the side. The canvas just happened to be in the right spot; otherwise, I might never have found it. And the bolt on the other side was just about ready to erupt as well:

[cutter]

I had to saw off the bent bolt to get it outta there. And that was the end of round 4. Round 5? I have lost track, all this begins to run together after a while. But I was not really very surprised to break the bolts, they were only 3/8ths inch. The ones that held the chain that wraps around the back upright were also 3/8ths so I removed them too. Also bent all to hell.

So I spent the rest of the evening reaming out the holes and dug up some 1/2 " hardened bolts which also required that I cut my best old chain into short lengths so the the bolts went through the very ends because they were too big to fit between continuous links. I hated doing that because it pretty much ruined that chain for any other purpose. But some things just have to be sacrificed for noble causes, right? Actually, this was where I quit for the night. All this didn't go as quickly as it sounds.
I had to rediscover my Drill Doctor (don't even start) & sharpen a 1/2 inch bit, I miscut one of the chains & had to cut another, yada yada, so I did part of this Saturday evening and the rest on Sunday afternoon. And it is 2:26 am where I am sitting so I will continue into the next round later in the day - maybe. Dunno for sure; my mind is pretty numb right now. :D

[7018]

Well cutter im getting really interested in this been wondering when we would see more on this vise! and im sure u'll get it working.cause the whole world is watching,maybe we can get it put on the world news!! :)

[cutter]

Having killed and eaten the insubordinate Klingon, I had Scottie beam me aboard the badly damaged Enterprise. I found First Officer Spock directing a crew of Sarilian slaves in repairing the forward photon torpedo bays. He estimated they would be battle ready within the hour. Proceeding to the bridge I noticed part of the crew missing so I demanded to know the whereabouts of Mr. Chekov. Sulu smiled, "Ah, you know Captain - the barrel." Sheesh, these guys get more & more difficult to deal with after a few months ...... Lt. Uhuru interrupted to tell me that those clowns at Travelocity said they still didn't want me back & I told her for the last time, "Get your finger out of your ear!" She's been this way ever since that last bridge Christmas Party. I never should have been at that damned thing to begin with .... "Message for you, Captain. It's Donald Trump, says to tell you 'You're fired!' They're going with the prissy bald guy."

POOF!

After a couple hours sleep I woke up thinking about the vise so I guess I may as well take the hint and finish this report to get it off my mind so I can go back to sleep.
Sunday afternoon I finally had the old Wilton lashed back onto the rail, all bolts replaced with the half-inchers and the ones holding the chains were those gold-toned 5mark hardened ones. I noticed that the backing disc was beginning to distort a little bit so I decided to positiion the jack down low and push against the bottom part of the slide since that is probably where the worst rust is located. I was hoping that might also spare the disc from further damage. I jacked the tension up until the chains were all tight enough to feel like solid bars.

[cutter]

I lit the torch and heated things up for maybe ten minutes, concentrating along the lower parts of both sides & winding up going all around the back end where I imagine the real problem is. When I had it radiating pretty good I used a Sharpie to mark a starting point on the ram then tossed the canvas cover back on it and started leaning into the cheater. This time I just kept at it, not bothering to pause to check on the jack, vise, chains or bolts. I had made up my mind to either break it loose, break another jack - whatever. It took about 5 minutes, I'd guess because this jack really does move in small increments. Then there was a loud snapping sound and it startled me into jumping backwards. Everything jumped - beam, jack, vise & all. Only the cheater pipe stayed in my hand.

[cutter]

I guess this ten dollar chinaman jack is ok. It snapped one of those 60cent bolts like it was a candy cane & bent the other one. The ram moved nearly an inch. And it nearly sheared the backing disc into a washer. I took ten pictures of that danged disc & for some reason, never did get a clear closeup, but you can get the idea, sort of. I guess.

[cutter]

As to the vise? It moved nary a fraction other than to jump up in the air & fall on its nose. Before all this activity I etched a mark just behind the slide. I took this picture after the tumbling act. No difference at all. However you can see where the disc began to wear into the inside margin of the slide. So I dunno what its gonna take but I do not think force alone is going to open this thing up.

[cutter]

Oh, by the way, the welds still held. :D

So I hauled the blue trash can out to the alley & dumped the nasty black glop out of it & started all over with nice clear water & washing soda - and a clean mower blade electrode. I had begun to wonder if I was still getting rust out of the vise or just out of the water or off the sediment on the bottom. And this time I turned the vise 180 degrees and dunked it face down to give the slide maybe a better chance to clean up. Besides, this seems to be the best place to store it between workouts.

Suggestions? I'm wondering if about 8 hours baking in an oven at 500 degrees might do it but I'd like to hear Old Pilot's opinion on whether that would hurt anything. I have an old Frigidaire cookstove buried over at the barn that I could rig up to use. Need to throw it away anyhow. Or I'm thinking there will have to be some other kind of chemical dunk to penetrate between the parts.
What do you think?

[fla jim]

Cutter;
Thanks for the birthday wish.
At the risk of irritating Franz. I don't think that the electrolsis will work to loosen the "vise" there's no clearance for material release between the jaw and body.
I would recommend heating the vise slightly to get all the moisture out of the vise. then Use "Kroil" . I'd place the vise nose down, apply some Kroil every day for about a month, to give it time for capillary action to get the kroil to penetrate completely through the vise. Also as a last resort I'd try drilling a hole through the side of the housing. tap it for 1/8 NPT, screw in a zerk grease fitting. Fill an old grease gun with some Kroil. and force it into the vise with pressure. again let it sit for a few weeks. then use heat and pressure. I've done this before, as a last resort, and it worked for me.

[7018]

Well shoot when i got the e-mail was hoping it was good news,sounds like fla jim mite has a good idea there,ooooooo and happy brithday jim!!

[cutter]

Originally posted by fla jim
Cutter;
Thanks for the birthday wish.
At the risk of irritating Franz. I don't think that the electrolsis will work to loosen the "vise" there's no clearance for material release between the jaw and body. I would recommend heating the vise slightly to get all the moisture out of the vise. then Use "Kroil" . I'd place the vise nose down, apply some Kroil every day for about a month, to give it time for capillary action to get the kroil to penetrate completely through the vise. Also as a last resort I'd try drilling a hole through the side of the housing. tap it for 1/8 NPT, screw in a zerk grease fitting. Fill an old grease gun with some Kroil. and force it into the vise with pressure. again let it sit for a few weeks. then use heat and pressure. I've done this before, as a last resort, and it worked for me.

Nope Jim,

I don't think electrolysis can do much more good, either but I have to undo the rust and soot from all this torching anyway,and like I said, it has to be stored somewhere. I just checked back to page 2 & this process started on the 6th of March so it's been derusting most of the time for nearly 2 months.
You're right again, the tolerances between the "sleeve & cylinder" on these things is real close for castings. I doubt water even soaks all the way through. However, I don't know what Kroil is? Explain that to me, please?
About drilling a grease zerk into the side, I was thinking that perforating it in several places really wouldn't hurt anything other than the appearance & what the hell, its already so beat up and old that like myself, that's no longer an issue anyway. We're "through being beautiful", as my Dad said on his 75th birthday or thereabouts. :D I'm thinking that the worst of the problem is probably concentrated along that half inch keyway that runs through the very bottom so tapping in a pair of zerks on each side near the bottom on either side of the base would do the most good. This metal seems to be very malleable & not prone to cracking so I don't believe it would do any harm structurally.
And someday I would like to spend a little time on other projects again. This thing has been taking up nearly all of my time & energy since this all started.

[Mike W]

I had a newer Wilton that was stuck from being outside on a truck. I finally got it unstuck by using a sledge and a short bar to hit on. :rolleyes:

[cutter]

Originally posted by Mike W
I had a newer Wilton that was stuck from being outside on a truck. I finally got it unstuck by using a sledge and a short bar to hit on. :rolleyes:

Yeah, that was a fantasy I had maybe a month ago, Mike. But there is no telling how many years this thing laid out in the weather before I stumbled across it. I think there is a lesson here: if you're going to leave one outside, keep the internal parts well greased and always leave the jaws open an inch or two so that you can use the screw to pull it inwards. The collar can only stand a limited amount of outward stress before it pops the retaining screwheads off, and warps the collar.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Paychk
Cutter

I’m a believer in wedge technology now, if your jacks don’t work, maybe you could set up a wedge to push the vise apart.

Paychk,

I've been forgetting to reply to your suggestion & I am familiar with "wedge technology" but more as applied in woodworking. The problem here is that there is nothing to "wedge against". This thing was designed to apply force, not to take it. Even if the jaws were open far enough to work with, I think it might snap the moving jaw off the slide before it pulled it out of the body.
Never the less, I enjoyed your story. Thanks. :D

And thanks again to all the rest of you who read and respond to this adventure. I can't even consider giving it up because of you; besides, I have my local reputation as a stubborn extremist nutcase to maintain. :D

[pjt]

Realizing you have more experience on vice rehab than the rest of us, I've been wondering:
1) Have you smacked it with a sledgeo'matic while the hydraulic cylinder is putting a strain on it,and
2) Have you thought about leaving it under tension from the
cylinder,say, over the weekend?

[cutter]

Thanks for the thoughts, pjt. But Yes and Yes. It has brand new scars from my hammering on it.
Even brought an air chisel home and sawed one of the tips down blunt & tried to vibrate some life into it.
Got a stick of dynamite you'd like to contribute? :p

[Mike W]

I read that one way to break loose a flywheel one a small engine is to take a air hammer with a pointed tool in it. You hold the flywheel and let the air chisel point bang on the end of the shaft. It is supposed to make the flywheel pop right off.

Perhaps you could do something similiar on a larger scale. You don't want to loose your stubborn nutcase status. :D

[fla jim]

Cutter:
Here's the link to Kroil.
http://www.kanolaboratories.com/
It's a super good penetrant. I get it locally from the guy I get all my bullets, powder and reloading supplies from.
It makes a good rust preventive. The say it will penetrate one millionth of an inch.
You could drill and tap and install some zerk fittings in several places. I think the key to using penetrant is "time" to let the stuff do it's work. I'd be patient, and let it soak for about a month, while filling the zerks every day.
when you get it free. Remove the zerks. Install some pipe plugs. Saw them off. Grind them flush to match the vise contour. when you paint it you'll never see where the holes were.

[cutter]

Paint it???? Paint it! Hmph. :rolleyes:

I had thought of pipe plugs but you know, it wouldn't hurt a thing to be able to grease it once in a while.

Thanks for the link, dunno why I didn't think to do a search.

[pjt]

Kroil wants to send you a free sample! Here's the address:
https://secure.cnchost.com/kanolabs.com/order_kroil.shtml

[stingers]

As one buzzard said to the other buzzard “patience hell-let’s kill something.”

I doubt that any anti-cease, de-ruster is going to get between the parts. Get some charcoal-several bags and get it burning in a steel drum cut off to make a fire pot or build a wood fire in a pit until there is a bed of coals. Lower the vise by chains, movable (??) jaw up, into the coals and let the vise get red hot. Then hoist it up and smack the vise body with your big sledge.

Option 2; Drill the key out! Then try twisting the movable jaw and the vise while pushing with the jack.

[cutter]

Originally posted by Mike W
I read that one way to break loose a flywheel one a small engine is to take a air hammer with a pointed tool in it. You hold the flywheel and let the air chisel point bang on the end of the shaft. It is supposed to make the flywheel pop right off.

Perhaps you could do something similiar on a larger scale. You don't want to loose your stubborn nutcase status. :D


Well, I can appreciate the sentiment but this vise doesn't have a tapered shaft in a matching aluminum flywheel. ;) A sharp rap with a hammer does the same thing, but you could beat this thing to peices before it popped apart.

[cutter]

Originally posted by stingers
As one buzzard said to the other buzzard “patience hell-let’s kill something.”

I doubt that any anti-cease, de-ruster is going to get between the parts. Get some charcoal-several bags and get it burning in a steel drum cut off to make a fire pot or build a wood fire in a pit until there is a bed of coals. Lower the vise by chains, movable (??) jaw up, into the coals and let the vise get red hot. Then hoist it up and smack the vise body with your big sledge.

Option 2; Drill the key out! Then try twisting the movable jaw and the vise while pushing with the jack.

Ummm,
The heat option might work; I've been thinking about something along that line. But drilling out the key? Bear in mind it is about a foot long. That's why I said the bottom is where it is stuck the worst - I think.

[Franz]

And, NOW, a word from our Sponsor; Uncle Franz's Products.
I think the time has come for submerging in diesel fuel for a month or so.

Geez, I take the evening off to go check out Martina McBride, and you guys go nuts wantin to sledgomatic a poor vise. This thing didn't get stuck over night, and it ain't gonna get unstuck quick either.

[stingers]

Option 2; Drill the key out! Then try twisting the movable jaw and the vise while pushing with the jack. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Cutter;

I offered the drill the key out as a last resort kind of thing, as if the "red hot" method isn't. There are drill bits long enough to do the job. The price of a few of those grade 8 bolts. :blob2:

Where I worked they had a method of burning? broken taps or bolts out of parts when they broke off down in a part or die. I never saw how they did it, but know there is a way. I don't know how deep a hole it would work in. I don't know it that method could burn the key out. Can you see the front end of the key-way or is the movable jaw too close? If you could get the key removed, then there might be hope for a solvent to get to the bore.

[terry lingle]

I will second the diesel fuel you can heat the vice up to about 250 -300 before submerging it that may help it penetrate . also set it in a hot location as raised temperatures will thin out the diesel and aid penitration. Terry

[Sirarcalot]

I'm with Franz. Try the diesel fuel before drilling or heating.

I've heard that Kroil was good stuff.

I've also seen some amazing results from PB magnetic penetrating catalyst. I got it at Wall Mart. I've seen this stuff climb into threads rusty threads and loosen stuck bolts in a matter of seconds.

[rusted]

Originally posted by Sirarcalot
I'm with Franz. Try the diesel fuel before drilling or heating.

I've heard that Kroil was good stuff.

I've also seen some amazing results from PB magnetic penetrating catalyst. I got it at wall mart. I've seen this stuff climb into threads rusty threads and loosen stuck bolts in a matter of seconds. I got it at Wall Mart.

Where did you get that again? I didn't catch it? Kmart? :laugh:

Just joshin ya, I'll have to check that stuff out, sounds cool.

[Sirarcalot]

Man Rusted, your fast. I didn't even get time to proof read it.

[rusted]

Originally posted by Sirarcalot
Man Rusted, your fast. I didn't even get time to proof read it.

:laugh: I didn't notice, I just clicked the thread and it was there, didn't mean to be too fast. Sorry!

[Sirarcalot]

No problem, Rusted. I can't believe how this vise story is keeping my attention. I'm telling all of my friends at work about this soap opera. And, of course none of them are interested. They just don't get it. Some people just don't appreciate a good story.

[cutter]

Clear the bridge. Just kidding, that was too much even for me.

Well guys,

I've been reading all your comments and thinking them over for an hour or two. I'll try to address them in one or two posts instead of one per post. Looks like we've got 5, maybe 6 types of "treatments" on the table:
1. heat
2. diesel
3. Kroil with or without zerks or PB Blaster
4. impact - tapping, hammering, sledging, beating it to death
5. pressure
or a combination of all or several (such as heated diesel)

6. and Stinger's suggestion of drilling out the key, which I ain't gonna attempt to do because I am not equipped to drill it cleanly without ruining the slots it runs in. While I'm here - Stinger, the the key & keyway are not visible from the front through the main casting which gives me the impression that the key is fixed to the main casting. A look at the next to last picture (of the butt end of the vise) bears that out. Notice that the major portion of the slot is in the slide & the slot in the casting is just deep enough to serve as a positioning groove for the key. I also have an exploded view of a similar, later model Wilton that indicates the same thing. This is a bit curious because the baby 903 Wilton that I posted does have the key attached to the slide. Go figure. At any rate, drilling it is simply not a practical thing for me to do. I will show the exploded view below. Look at the complete circle at the front of the base.

I tend to favor diesel right now because of time considerations. I will be too busy during the next several days to screw with it very much and then be gone for a few days. It will be the weekend of May 15 & 16 before I can do any serious tinkering anyway. And I know where to get diesel as compared to probably having to order Kroil or at least run around town trying to buy some locally.
Furthermore, leaving it soaking in diesel requires no babysitting and prevents additional rusting while I'm out of pocket.
By the way, Sirarcalot, I have a spray can of PB Blaster, bought it at NAPA, tried it for a few days but I really think its gonna take a minimum of a gallon of any kind of solvent; I could plug the front end, set it on its nose and fill the inside with Kroil or PB and just keep topping it off every day. But diesel is a lot cheaper and so much more acessible. If I do get into that, I do know that Kroil can be ordered in gallon sizes for about $22 plus shipping, I don't know about PB. And I do like Jim's suggestion about the grease zerks.
As for as heating it goes, building a bonfire in my backyard sounds like more fun that it would really be, I'm afraid. I just hate being handcuffed & riding in a copcar - too much novelty. It wasn't even fun the first time. :p I'd rather use the old cookstove idea & even that would be a pain in the butt to arrange. However, I can do it if I have to. But not until later in the month.
Hammering doesn't seem to get any results at all. I think that's because we're dealing with 16 - 18 inches of a massive, rusted, tight fitting tube & sleeve here. And it dents easily; it was already scarred up pretty badly when I found it. Adding to it seems pretty pointless to me.
I think my homemade press will be called back into duty after a period of soaking and I will need a new backing disc to even do that. I guess I need to find some 1/2 " plate to use for that because 1/4 inch just didn't hold up last weekend.

So from where I sit right now, the diesel soak looks like the most practical idea. A note about the cost of this kind of thing: with a few exceptions, keeping the cost way down just adds to the fun of a project like this. The idea of spending $200 - $300 in either materials or outside labor just defeats the concept as far as I am concerned. That's why I don't really enjoy those lame tv shows like American Chopper or American Hotrod very much - they don't even have to consider the expense of the custom parts or paint jobs. Where's the challenge & fun in that? Most of us have to give up something else when we do that, if we can afford to do it at all. So there again, diesel fits the bill mo' better. Now that pretty much defies what I did with that old Delta vertical bandsaw that I restored last fall & posted to the Hobart site, but that was one of those exceptions for me. And it is proving itself to be darned well worth the $300 or $400 I invested in it. The difference in the 2 projects is that there is really no other way to get a 1945 model metal cutting bandsaw unless you spend about 3 times as much for one somebody else has already refurbished. I already have other vises I can get by with. And when I do get this cranky old thing back into a useable state, it will be an real joy to use just because I poured so much care into it and all of you fellows were witnesses and collaborators to the deal.
Maybe that's why you keep coming back to see what's going on :); I have really wondered about that myself. At the present time there are 6515 page views of this thread & that just amazes me. I guess it strokes my ego but nevertheless, it is deeply gratifying to have somehow kept your sustained interest for 2 months now and I really do thank you for it. Someday, it will suddenly be done. I hope. :D

[fla jim]

Cutter:
Diesel might work. I still would drill and tap some Zerks into the body, and use a grease gun filled with Diesel fuel to inject diesel into the body. I'd still ;eave it soak about a month filling it every day or so before I attempted to seperate it again.

[stingers]

All the skin lotion, Diesel fuel, Liquid Wrench, etc. in a bath applied to the outside of the vise body isn't going to soak in. The only access to the bore of the vise is that thin parting line between the vise body, key and barrel. If-if any penetrate can get down that crack-gap it's going to take a miracle. You can plug the hole in the barrel and fill the end of the vise with whatever liquid of choice-that should be enough. The same goes for the other end as far as that thin line of access. So you shouldn't need a gallon of what-ever.

Even if anything penetrates that bore, the grip between the two moving (?) parts because of the amount of surface involved is going to be difficult to overcome. Getting the two contacting surfaces to separate a tad should help.

But I'm with you. I'm stubborn too. You might heat the vise in that stove and then use a CO2 fire extinguisher and shoot the hole with CO2 to see if it would shrink the tube to loosen it.

[Mike W]

Ok, I have an idea. Do you know what an oxygen lance is for cutting steel? It is a piece of pipe hooked to the oxy regulator. A torch is used to start the cut and then the lance is brought into play.

Make one on a smaller scale and you should be able to cut out the key stock for it's entire length. :D

[SDean]

Do you know what an oxygen lance is for cutting steel?

Jeez Mike, He's trying to SAVE this vise.:eek:

[cutter]

Originally posted by SDean
Jeez Mike, He's trying to SAVE this vise.:eek:

LOLOL! My thought exactly.
Some of these guys appear to be trying to get me to act out their fantasies or something. :D
I know, I asked for suggestions so keep them coming. So far I don't have a death wish
so I think it's ok for you to keep trying.

[Franz]

Obviously Mike has never had an up close & personal relationship with an Oxygen Lance!!

Cutter, given that I've put 48000# of push on a rusted up Reese receiver to move it, much to the constirnation of the press owner, I've come to be a great believer in patience and heat, along with air hammers. There is a lot to be said for air hammers, along with appropriate striking surfaces machined to fit.
I generally try to hang onto the thought it wasn't working when I got my hands on it, and all I really gotta do is NOT break it. You sure as hell ain't gonna hurt it by soaking it in diesel for a month or 2.

[stingers]

Cutter;

I was looking at the photo in post #532. Do I see a hole pitted through the forging bore into the keyway? Just wondering. If I was trying to drive the movable jaw barrel, I would make a counter-bored steel cup for the jack post to fit into that was stepped down to slightly smaller than the barrel with a pilot turned on the end opposite the jack pocket that located/centered the cup. Cut a slot to clear the key. Reading your thoughts- the key is pinned so it shouldn't move?

I found a 50 ton bottle jack that works horizontally so maybe you can find a loaner. Then you will have to find something to handle that much pressure to push against. Heavier chain or heavy steel bars and cross bars all bolted together. Chain or strap both the jack and the vise down to the I beam. I'd cover it like you did before and sand bag every thing but the jack handle.

I know the results of squeezing a solid bar of aluminum (stop block) out of a 200 ton press. :(

[Mike W]

If you can blow out a broken off bolt in a cylinder head with a torch.....I have never tried it, then why can you not blow out a steel key stock in a cast iron vise? :o

I don't think a jack is going to work. :cry: