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View Full Version : 20" Saddle and pipesaddlelayout.com isn't giving the right numbers

TXTimberMulcher
12-08-2011, 09:05 PM
I used the program in the past and it worked great but now I'm getting point measurements that are clearly incorrect. Need help. 20" x 1/4" wall to 20" 1/4" wall at a 90.:confused:

NHMatt
12-13-2011, 12:29 AM
http://metalgeek.com/static/cope.pcgi is a site I used in the past. It will only calculate up to 10" but it is easy enough to scale it up to 20 inch.

fdcmiami
12-13-2011, 07:56 AM
i am curious about this process. first, i've never used a computer program to develop the true length lines. sometimes i would divide the diameter of the piecec being laid out into divisions based on degrees and then use an equation to solve for x and y on each of those divisions and then connect the dots.

this worked fine on light guage material, say between 22 and 12. when i would lay out for pipe, say in your case 1/4 wall i would work to the mean diameter to calculate my stretch out and alter layout accordingly.

no matter what though the two layouts did not end up the same, the sheet metal would finish to a sharp rise on the sides; 90/270; but in the case of the pipe i would always have to use my steel rule and radius that section (elminating the spike) to get the pipe to seat correctly. the pattern would look different than the pattern for the light guage material.

see page 3/20 figure 3/49

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/nrtc/14251_ch3.pdf

obviously the material thickness had a lot to do with this and was easy to deal with doing one off's. but if you look at the drawing, it shows the actual mathematical projection of line (like you would see laying out for light guage material) and the modified version where it has been radiused and beveled so that it will slip over the lower piece.

basically if you are using a program that is developing line lengths according to a fixed od stretchout that is used basically for sheet metal; could that be what is making the fabrication difficult for you? since the points for proper layout on the sides will actually be located differently.

either way if your fitter or welder is skilled this should not pose a problem, it's done every day.

fdcmiami
12-13-2011, 08:21 AM
ok; i went to the site that you are using and found it pretty primitive.

if you see a statement that a piece of software is in the beta stage of development (something stated on their home page) then it's user beware. see excerpt.

Beta

Beta (named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet) is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts to users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and this is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it.

The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price

zipzit
12-14-2011, 02:09 PM
Do you have access to a CAD system (autocad?) I'm an okay welder, but I'm very good at software. I wrote the tubenotcher program at:

www.cobratorch.net

I did the work using old school descriptive geometry stuff and lots of math translations... The cope thing was okay, but I really wanted more.

For really big stuff, I added the option of .dxf output.. the program creates a file that will import to a CAD program, so you can print out a full size template on your full scale plotter. Its similar to the pipe cope program, but I do material thickness, and references to intersections as well. When you are fillet brazing 4130, you want to keep track of both the inside and outside surface of the steel You don't want to trim away material that you will need later.

If you want, you can decode the .dxf file output.. the output stuff is in plain text, but I will say, a curve is made up of LOTS of little, very little straight line segments.. PM me if you have specific questions..

--zip

fdcmiami
12-14-2011, 03:15 PM
the flaw i see, and i will grant that is is minor, in these elementary programs comes about when you have substantial material thickness. for example, in this case you have a 12 on 12. solving this with descriptive geometry is a relatively easy excercise.

see att.

the problem i see is when you are working with thicker materials. suppose you are working with half inch plate, you need to hold 12 inches outside at the top. however you are working with a 12 od pipe on the horizontal. so in effect you no longer have a cylinder intersecting cylinder but a right frustrum intersecting a cylinder; 12 in od to 13 in od. i suspect this would change the mathematics involved in the programing. technically it changes the layout from parallel to radial or triangulation.

that is why, when you are in the shop you can make the light guage work according to the layout showed in the attachment but for heavier materials i would usually take the rule and connect points four and six with the same arc as 8 9 8. a haphazard way of raising the tangent point. it would seem if you program to this occurrence you could have a nice nesting fit. or perhaps the bigger operations already do this. i've been away from this for quite some time.

Rickster
02-04-2012, 01:16 PM
There is a Metal Layout Calculator that fits in your shirt pocket that will layout flat patterns for (Cones that are C/L or Offset), Square to Rounds/,C/L or Offset, Round Elbows, Tee's/Saddle's at any angle including the hole layout and much more. It reads out in both Decimal and Fractional to the closest 1/32" of an inch. using a large Blk.& White screen. It comes with a 100 plus page Visual Manual for people that can read a drawing easier than they can read the written word. You just transfer the dimensions the calculator gives you to your material starting with a BaseLine. You can copy a page to follow from the Visual Manual to take out in the shop for reference if you don't know the Layout. It really speeds up a job and is mathematically DEAD ACCURATE and you don't need to know any math. It also has a lot of Utility programs like solving triangles,(90` & Oblique), Finding Arcs and Radius's, layout for a perfect Ellipse including the circumference,(Used for penetrating a deck or wall with a pipe at any angle), length of any ARC & DEG and much, much more. Its worth looking at, the website is www.sheetmetallayoutcalculator.com

Rickster
02-04-2012, 04:13 PM
[QUOTE=Rickster;766201]There is a Metal Layout Calculator that fits in your shirt pocket that will layout flat patterns for (Cones that are C/L or Offset), Square to Rounds/,C/L or Offset, Round Elbows, Tee's/Saddle's at any angle including the hole layout and much more. It reads out in both Decimal and Fractional to the closest 1/32" of an inch. using a large Blk.& White screen. It comes with a 100 plus page Visual Manual for people that can read a drawing easier than they can read the written word. You just transfer the dimensions the calculator gives you to your material starting with a BaseLine. You can copy a page to follow from the Visual Manual to take out in the shop for reference if you don't know the Layout. It really speeds up a job and is mathematically DEAD ACCURATE and you don't need to know any math. It also has a lot of Utility programs like solving triangles,(90` & Oblique), Finding Arcs and Radius's, layout for a perfect Ellipse including the circumference,(Used for penetrating a deck or wall with a pipe at any angle), length of any ARC & DEG and much, much more. Its worth looking at, the website is [url]www.sheetmetallayoutcalculator.com

99331

Pipelinetrash
02-21-2012, 11:41 PM
Pipefitters bluebook and a roll of calculator paper. Y'all are tryn too hard.

vic
02-26-2012, 12:46 AM
Amen...

MainePiper
04-27-2012, 06:08 PM
There is a Lateral Pipe Calculator on the android market that will do Saddles, Eccentric Saddles, Laterals and Eccentric Laterals. ALso one will output the layout as a graph template for those in a fab shop.

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