PDA

View Full Version : Millermatic 200 14 pin to 4 pin spoolmatic 1



redhotgluegun
09-19-2006, 04:59 AM
I have a Spoolmatic 1 spool gun and would like to use it with a Millermatic 200. The MM200 I have located has the 14 pin RC3 connector and the Spoolmatic 1 has a 4 pin RC1 connector. Has anyone done a conversion to the old four pin connector? Or is there an addapter available? I was thinking I did not have to have the weld control box and could just plug the spoolmatic into the old style 4 pin connector figuring I would buy and install one in place of the new style 14 pin.
Any knowledgable help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

redhotgluegun

MotoFab
09-19-2006, 05:26 PM
What is this Spoolmatic contraption? Sure, a wire drive in the gun is the necessary item. But how much did that box of something-to-justify-the-cost, cost? With the oh-that-must-be-complex look of a 14-pin connector :jester:

I understand the motivation and presence of nothing-for-something as common to most industries. But this looks more like a protection racket :)

But in answer to your question . . . The easy answer is, if the drive motor in the Spoolmatic can be driven directly from the drive motor leads in the MM200 then, yes. A small amount of rewiring in the gun, and connect the MM200 motor drive leads to the two unused positions in connector RC1 on the front panel of the MM200.

The less easy answer is, if the Spoolmatic motor cannot be driven directly from the MM200 drive leads (and it may not because it looks like the Spoolmatic motor has a gear reduction) then, also yes. Providing the drive signal is suitably adjusted or modified.

Do you have a standard gun for the MM200? Or, is the wire feed not working in the MM200? Or are you using aluminum wire or something?

- Jim

redhotgluegun
09-19-2006, 10:42 PM
MotoFab,
The Spoolmatic 1 was the aluminum spool gun designed to be used with the early versions of the Millermatic 200 which has the 4 pin RC1 conector. The late model of the MM200 has the 14 pin RC3.

Was looking for some advise from someone who has run into this issue before, Possibly a miller repair tech who is familliar with these older machines. A experianced hand who may have come across this... Before I fully resort to the brute force method... I recall hearing about this being done years ago when I took a welder equipment repair course in college.


thanks
RHGG

MotoFab
09-19-2006, 11:57 PM
MotoFab,
The Spoolmatic 1 was the aluminum spool gun designed to be used with the early versions of the Millermatic 200 which has the 4 pin RC1 conector. The late model of the MM200 has the 14 pin RC3.

Heh heh, sounds right. So you are saying that the older model MillerMatic worked the (possibly also older) Spoolmatic gun directly. And did so without the additional complexity in the gun, OR the separate weld control box.

What a racket :)

- Jim

redhotgluegun
09-20-2006, 12:53 AM
Are you saying differently?

MotoFab
09-20-2006, 01:32 AM
Oh, sorry if unclear. We are on the same page RH.

My commentary is about the extent of the 'bill of goods' nature of manufacturers. I mean, it's present to some extent or another in most industries.

But in some industries, and especially when the typical user does not clearly understand the device operation, it is rampant. You should see what passes for technology in the medical electronics industry. If a 175A inverter TIG welder were a medical device . . . You think they are high/overpriced now?

- Jim

redhotgluegun
09-20-2006, 04:35 AM
Motofab,
I believe the gun is used by itself on machines that included the control circuit in the welding machine itself. That the control box was used on machines that were not so equipped. My assumption may be wrong but it states that in the Owners manual for the Spoolmatic. :waving:

Thats right the later spoolguns have that circuit in the gun itself. So I likely do not have the control circuit in the later model machine I have. I'll confirm as soon as I receive the machine serial number, and can compare schematics.

I do like the older style spoolgun and the MM200. I have owned a MM35 for about 22 years and it was time to upgrade. I picked up the spool gun years ago for around $25. So even if it proves to be cost prohibitive to install a control circuit and RC1 and I have to buy a new spool gun, I'm still way less than the cost of a new machine and spool gun. (>$1000).

Medical, I felt those costs recently.... Know what a gallon of oil costs to produce, refine, distribute, sell retail? There is no tie to production cost at all... especially now that Wall Street is in the oil speculation business.

Thanks
RHGG

MotoFab
09-20-2006, 04:11 PM
I get ya RH.

About those 'control circuits' . . . I'm saying that a SEPARATE control circuit is functionally unnecessary. Whether in the gun, the weld control box, or the power supply. The GMAW supply already has a 'drive motor control circuit' inside. So adding an additional one to the power supply, the weld control box, or the spool gun, is a 'forced' option say.

I hear you that the earlier models did not have such an option. And instead let the user plug the spool gun right into the supply.

And about the 14pin converter plug, I think it is entirely possible that 4 of those 14 pins could be used for the gun. 2 for the contactor, and 2 for the motor drive. It depends on the circuit board schematic. The wiring diagrams in the manuals do not specify. I'm sure that somebody experienced with those welders will post up. I am only familiar with circuits, and cynical enough to understand the rationale that pays to design many of them.

- - - - -

Heh heh. +1 on oil speculation. Similar condition there. People that do not understand are so easy to take advantage of that they will usually do it for you. Knowledge is lacking or erroneous, and the missing support of our fellows in gaining it and acting on it is criminal. Couple that with a 'keep your head down and row' perspective and you get something that looks and feels a lot like slavery. Slavery hasn't left, it moved upmarket to manufacturing and 'education'.

Please HG, my friends call me

- Jim

weldersales
09-21-2006, 05:44 PM
The easiest way to solve this is to swap a Spoolmatic 1 gun for a Spoolmatic 3 which will plug into your MM200. Each of these guns has an scr control built into the gun itself, so they require a constant ac voltage with the speed set on the gun. Seems to me the Sp 1 used 36 volts, but that is from memory. Be happy to check if you want or you can get it from Miller website. Third option is to get a WC1 control, plug the Sp1 into it and wire WC1 into MM200. The WC1 should be available for 100.00 or less.

J-P
10-10-2006, 09:13 PM
If you intend to swap it for a Spoolmatic 3, i am interested to buy your SM1.
I have a MM200 with the 4 pins plug...
(serviceATechosysteme.com)

all4naught
05-05-2007, 12:37 AM
Your all incorrect. "Weldersales" comes the closest to the truth. The Spoolmatic 1 gun requires 36V DC (hence the requirement for the WC-1 control).The Spoolmatic 3 has a bridge rectifier circuit internally that converts the 24Vac from the Miller power source to DC for the motor in the gun. You can't just add a rectifier circuit because the Spoolmatic 1 needs 36VDC not 24VDC(won't feed at the right speed). There is a SCR motor control circuit in the Spoolmatic 1 gun but the SCR is forced back off by the circuit itself(no need for AC to gate the SCR off). This part of the circuit is identical to the spoolmatic 3.
Most newer Miller welders with the 14 pin connector have 24 AC and a contact closure input(jumper pins A and B this will close the contactor).
I think the Spoolmatic 3 gun also jumpers 2 others pins on the 14 pin connector to disable the internal feeder in the Millermatic 200.
Also the remote contactor output on the WC-1 has line voltage present so don't go connecting it to pins A and B on the 14 pin connector of your welder without rewiring the relay in the WC-1 to act as a dry contact. Additionally the WC-1 has a RC timedelay to allow a remote contactor to pull in before the motor starts feeding.
The circuit diagrams for the WC-1(and Spoolmatic 1) on page 8 of its manual make everything clear(Diagram N0. CA-000 259-1C and CA-00 396-1C).
I have two Spoolmatic 1 guns and two WC-1 controls both work fine with my Syncrowave 250 with this simple mod.
If you are up to some simple electronics you could duplicate the WC-1 function with a 115V to 36V transformer and a bridge rectifier. If you don't mind the torch tip being always live you could omit the 36V relay that pulls in the contactor. Hope this helps.

12,000 Doors
05-11-2007, 07:37 PM
That all sounds pretty confusing. Years ago I remember you could also hook up those old mig power sources to a tig foot pedal. What would you have to do to make a five pin foot pedal hook into a 14 pin millermatic?

19000mike
11-24-2009, 06:03 PM
I dragged up this post because it is similar to a problem i am working on. I am trying to get an AIRCO MIGET gun to work on my Millermatic 200 (Ser. # 525099 Which has a 4 pin plug) The AIRCO spoolgun just has 8 numbered wires at the end of the cable. Can I do it without the WC-1?
Thanks to anyone who can help!
19000Mike

duaneb55
11-24-2009, 07:45 PM
I dragged up this post because it is similar to a problem i am working on. I am trying to get an AIRCO MIGET gun to work on my Millermatic 200 (Ser. # 525099 Which has a 4 pin plug) The AIRCO spoolgun just has 8 numbered wires at the end of the cable. Can I do it without the WC-1?
Thanks to anyone who can help!
19000Mike

Actually Mike, you would need the WC-2 or WC-3 to make the Airco Miget work with your first generation MM200. They're out there but you may be more successful finding a direct connect Spoolmatic 1 or Spoolmatic 3 first that can also operate on your early MM200 which lacks a number of circuit components the Airco unit needs to function thus the reason a WC-2 or WC-3 would be needed.

19000mike
11-25-2009, 10:40 AM
Thanks Duane,
Is ther any diff between the spoolmatic1 and 3 other than the connector? Also, I would not be against building my own weld control if anyone has any suggestions. My MM200 has the spot weld control panel installed and I wonder if it could control the spoolgun output as well since I don't use it much as a spot welder.

My life would be much simpler if my brain didn't try to re-engineer everything I see!

Mike

duaneb55
11-25-2009, 11:16 AM
There are some subtle circuitry differences between the SM-1 and SM-3. The SM-3 started the standardization to the 14-pin remote plug for spoolguns. Basically, the SM-1 and SM-3 can be used on all MM200s but with serial number JJ407380 and above a SM-1 requires weld controller WC-1 and units below JJ407380 require special order adapter cord #042236 or a simple 14-pin to 4-pin plug change to use the SM-3 (as I did with my units).

No, the spot control on the machine does not function with the spoolgun. For that, the WC-1S would be needed and I have both set ups - early MM200 with spot controller and SM-1/3 and a SM-1 with WC-1S.

As for building your own controller, duplcating the required circuit to run the Airco Miget in the MM200 is definately doable and wouldn't be that difficult if you're up for it.

19000mike
11-25-2009, 11:24 AM
I will keep my eyes open for a WC-2 or WC-3 and if I don't find one on the cheap..... Is there wiring diagrams for the Airco spoolgun available. I did not find any on the Profax site. Specifically what the numbered wires actually need to be wired to on the WC-2 or 3

Thanks again,
Mike

duaneb55
11-25-2009, 11:35 AM
Airco / Profax wire color on the left, WC-2/3 1T terminal number on the right.

Purple / #22
Orange / #21
Black / #16
Green / #15
Blue / #14
Yellow / #13
Red / #23
White / #20 (with optional 'Jog' feature)

19000mike
11-25-2009, 11:37 AM
Thanks Duane!

You are the answer man!

19000mike
05-05-2010, 10:26 AM
Hey all,
I hate to dig up the old but.... I found me a new in the box WC-3A to use with my Airco Miget gun. I have hooked it up as per above as recommended by Duane. I have no wire feed (jog switch dont work as it did with the muget controller) but the contactors close and the stinger is hot when the trigger is pulled. I had earlier tried to use the MIGET controller and temporairly gave up or got distracted. Now I decided that the cheap WC-3A was way more advanced and it would operate the contactor on the MM200 as well as give me the run in control. Any help from anyone??? Ideas as to why the feed wont work?
Thanks,
Mike

duaneb55
05-05-2010, 02:45 PM
Mike,
Do you have the MM200 and WC-3 work clamps connected (clamped together or both on a piece of metal)? This is required to complete the gun control circuits.

The WC-3 isn't set up to accommodate the Profax 'jog' feature.

Are you using the WC-3 terminals #11 and #12 to close the MM200 contactor thru the 4-pin receptacle pins 'B' and 'D'?

19000mike
05-05-2010, 03:09 PM
I did not clamp the sensor clamp to ground or work. It was getting late and I had seen enough wiring for the night. When the jog didn't function I figured I screwd up so i checked my wiring and then quit for the night. I will try again tonight and see if that helps. I am using 11 and 12 to close the MM contactor

ccawgc
05-06-2010, 01:58 AM
anybody working with the airco type spoolguns. They all were made by profax for them.
Please call profax tech support they probably have an adapter on the shelf for your gun.
There are several types of these guns. one feed it 24 volt dc and it runs. one requires a motor control pc board. and a couple of other changes. Ask and they may help you wire up what you have. When your motor wares out they have new one and may be able to repair yours. Tech support will talk to anybody. but they sell through their distributors.
to answer the spoolmatic question of old. There were 3. 1 needed dc power 1 needed ac power. And the spoolmatic 3 could plug into any welder with a 14 pin plug.
sm1 and sm 2 had the same 4 pin plug but were not interchangeable.
Plug in the wrong in and it dies. sm1 and 2 were complete but there was a brake suppressor assembly in side the welder or control box.

19000mike
05-07-2010, 09:43 AM
Duane and ccawgc Thanks for the help. I have it running but the wire feeds a bit too slow. I will call PROFAX today and see what needs to be done. Thanks again for all the help!!! This info is great and only available on these forums from these experts.
Mike

duaneb55
05-07-2010, 09:51 AM
What output setting do you have the welder set on? The higher the setting, the faster the wire feed speed for the same gun dial setting.

19000mike
05-07-2010, 10:04 AM
I had it cranked and it would not keep out ahead of the tip. I only had .030 aluminum so maybe going to larger wire would help??? I weld aluminum with a new Miller spoolgun at work and have no problem but it is a CV machine and mine is a CC.

Mike

duaneb55
05-07-2010, 10:07 AM
CC?? I thought you were connecting the gun to your MM200? The 200 is CV.

19000mike
05-07-2010, 10:18 AM
Old machine is a MM200 CC. Prior to serial number something is CC. I think I had a jumper on the WC-3A for low voltage needs moved to high voltage to get more speed. Sounds logical i'll check it out later and see what happens.
Thanks,
Mike

duaneb55
05-09-2010, 12:55 AM
Old machine is a MM200 CC. Prior to serial number something is CC. I think I had a jumper on the WC-3A for low voltage needs moved to high voltage to get more speed. Sounds logical i'll check it out later and see what happens.
Thanks,
Mike

A Constant Current, Millermatic 200 MIG?? Any letters in front of the 525099 SN? You got any pictures of this rig?

19000mike
05-10-2010, 09:36 AM
I will check it out and let you know. I have misspoke before so I will get more info.
Mike

19000mike
05-13-2010, 11:12 AM
Hey Duane, my MM 200 is Constant Potential Serial number is JB525099
Looks like I am spraying aluminum!
Mike

MotoFab
05-13-2010, 03:20 PM
Potential means voltage, Mike.

19000mike
05-13-2010, 04:26 PM
hello motofab,
I dont want it to sound rude all the advice I have gotten has been good and much appreciated. If I do it is because I don't type too fast so I try to keep it short and to the point.
As I read it In Miller's one line explanation Potential may "mean" Voltage but a constant potential and a constant voltage machine aint even close to having the same arc characteristics. I welded steel daily 22 yrs both at work and home many machines. CV at work CP at home. CV is much more stable than the CP. On aluminum I can't give an opinion I have only used the CV machine extensively. It works well.
This old MM200 is just a fun project for home. Using up Lots of antique parts, old profax spoolgun and have some fun. I work with Electrical engineers, at an Electric utility company and the Potential and Voltage explanations get pretty complicated much more than "they are the same". More like they are both measured with voltage but that is about all. Maybe someone (Duane where are you?) can better explain the diff in the machines, it is what makes this forum great.
Thanks again for all the help guys,
Mike

MotoFab
05-13-2010, 07:42 PM
Ok, but they are merely two different words describing the differential between two points.

The arc voltage is a phenomenon of arc length. The power supply cannot directly vary the arc voltage above or below whatever the arc voltage is at any given arc length. It does of course control the arc length, which indirectly changes the arc voltage.

If two wire feed machines have different arc characteristics, look for differences in the wire drive mechanism and drive control electrics. That is provided the torch tip, relay contacts, power input, etc., are equivalent.

ccawgc
05-24-2010, 12:42 AM
I think they changed from CP to CV terminology. To clear up questions like this.
Years ago there were other terms also.
Aluminum is welded using a spray arc process. Not short arc.
It would not surprise me if your wire speed is at max, using 0.030 wire.
The Two parts that ware out on the mm200 are the contactor and the cap bank.
I have changed a lot of capacitors lately in that age machines.

duaneb55
05-24-2010, 01:44 AM
The Two parts that ware out on the mm200 are the contactor and the cap bank.
I have changed a lot of capacitors lately in that age machines.

Yup, just changed out my caps a couple months ago after one blew on a project. Had to finish about 12" of weld in short circuit mode. New Mallory's made a new machine out of the 'ol girl.