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cutter
01-11-2004, 10:52 PM
and in case you never looked, the entire innards:

cutter
01-11-2004, 10:59 PM
the search for aliens was on, no problem finding them; here is the fan motor:

cutter
01-11-2004, 11:01 PM
And here is one of the little Chinese wire feed motors that started this whole brouhahaha, if I recall correctly?

Scott S
01-11-2004, 11:09 PM
Thanks Cutter, now I don't have to open mine. This is kinda like the Roswell Insident :D

Franz
01-12-2004, 12:06 AM
Well, my fingers are tired, and I gotta go plow snow later, so I'll keep this short.
I wouldn't give a rats *** about Chink and Mexican components in a machine, and I doubt most other guys would either, if the damn machine didn't have USA all over the outside, and the manufacturer hadn't just blew a truck full of bucks on their red white & blue immitation motorcycle nobody will ever ride.
Course, if I owned one of them phoney labeled welders and the box it came in, I might just be printing off a certain thread on a certain board, just in case there was a recall, or class action thingy on down the line.
Miller Minder, immediately print that and run it up to legal.

JustLooking
01-12-2004, 03:59 AM
Thanks Cutter,

The Hobart 135 is a nice little mig - not sure about the newest versions.

I agree 100% with Franz.

Either be True Blue to the printed words MADE IN USA or don't use them.

I still think Hobart/ITW canned Rock because he offered to much information about the former motor being foreign made too. Not just the one Made in China. I'd bet sooner or later the welders will be sealed up and a Warning about Voiding the Warranty in the Future for peeking under the hood.

JustLooking
01-12-2004, 04:41 AM
BTW never peeked under the hood of the Hobart 135. I took their word for the Made in USA contents a few years ago. Kind of wished I'd looked inside now before trading up on welder sizes.

I am thinking about buying another 120 volt MIG welder.

Does Lincoln Claim to be Made in USA?

Banzaitoyota
01-12-2004, 08:23 AM
You are correct: I DON'T mind foreign components in my machines, Just don't try to SNOWBALL me with a "Made in the USA" label when it is "ASSMBLED in the USA"

1grnlwn
01-12-2004, 11:14 AM
So you found two components and that's it? Two inexpensive motors? I'm sure there is a law that says how much of a product is allowed to be of foreign origin and still be labeled Made In USA. I thought you guys came over here to turn over a new leaf. Seams like you brought a lot of baggage. Instead of opening the box and taking pictures, go build (invent) something and make sure it is produced in the good ole USA. Careful though don't slip up and use Chinese (not Chink) or Mexican bolts. Your old buddies will be all over you. It upsets me that the only jobs around her are insurance, med, legal, and investment. But who do we have to blame but ourselves, politicians, unions, and the lazy *** Americans that rather steal or take handouts than work. I could say more but instead of whining I am going to get something done today!

cutter
01-12-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by 1grnlwn
So you found two components and that's it? Two inexpensive motors? I'm sure there is a law that says how much of a product is allowed to be of foreign origin and still be labeled Made In USA. I thought you guys came over here to turn over a new leaf. Seams like you brought a lot of baggage. Instead of opening the box and taking pictures, go build (invent) something and make sure it is produced in the good ole USA. Careful though don't slip up and use Chinese (not Chink) or Mexican bolts. Your old buddies will be all over you. It upsets me that the only jobs around her are insurance, med, legal, and investment. But who do we have to blame but ourselves, politicians, unions, and the lazy *** Americans that rather steal or take handouts than work. I could say more but instead of whining I am going to get something done today!

Wooo. Feel better now? ;)

I opened the case because I was curious, and I presented the photos without comment because the danged software would not accept the first photos I tried to post - kept claiming they exceeded the 800 x 600 pixel limit. So I finally just killed the page & started over & flung them up here because I had said I would. I lost my text in the process & had meant to come back to it later.
As to being upset over finding the Chinese drive motor: well no, I am not upset & I was not surprised either. Inexpensive? Hmmm, I don't know about that. I think I will go ask. This much I do know: it is a critical part of the welder. No wire feed - no welder, so it would be nice for it to be a good motor, and I hope that it is. But I doubt it, so I think I might try to acquire a spare. Now if that causes you to get your panties all in a big wad then I guess that's just too doggoned bad. :p

The little fan motor was no surprise at all; I buy those little "phonograph" motors all the time to use in appliances & vent hoods. And I doubt there is still an American manufacturer of cheap little motors like that ; I could replace it with a better one without even bothering the dealer.

Now as to being upset over the job market because of foreign competition, I am sympathetic with all of you. That's why I've gone along with this business of trying to maybe hold Hobart's feet to the fire a little bit even though it doesn't hurt me personally. However, I thought I could see this coming many years ago when American labor unions were throwing their weight around, especially in the auto industry. So my solution , albeit imperfect was this: I have not had a "job" where I had to punch the timeclock since I was 19 years old. I have made my way either by being on commission or self employed for over 40 years & that has not always been so easy either, lots of ups & downs but at least I have always known who to blame for my difficulties and I always known who to turn to for the answer to my problems. Some people can't live like this , I really can't live any other way. There ain't no handouts , there aren't many perks & I will probably have to work until I drop dead but living by my own wits suits me better than having to ask some corporate suit for permission to keep breathing.

Y'all have a nice day. And remember to be good to yourselves; no one else really cares. :D

Charles Brown
01-15-2004, 06:04 PM
Cutter:

I'm glad you posted those pictures. It was appropriate considering the circumstances surrounding our gathering over here on this site. I hope you posted them over there too.

It puts an undeniable reality check on the subtle slight of hand that I read on the Hobart website.

As they say, pictures a worth a thousand words. You probably went through a lot of trouble to be able to get clear enough images just to be able to see and read those labels... to be the right distance from the lens, to have the right light, and to take enough apart to have the right component posistion. Thanks again for going through all of that trouble, and for posting them.

JustLooking
01-19-2004, 02:54 AM
Cutter,

Did you happen to see a Manufacturer - Name on the Made in China motor?

cutter
01-19-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by JustLooking
Cutter,

Did you happen to see a Manufacturer - Name on the Made in China motor?

Nope, just that little white tag. But then, it was night, it was cold and I could only see the topside and butt end through a wad of wires.

JustLooking
01-21-2004, 05:52 AM
Hey Cutter,

Here is why I was wondering what name brand of drive is inside.

My Thermadyne Holding Company - Firepower FP160: 220 volt mig has an EVER drive motor in it. The Ever motor is traced back to China. Took these pictures a Year Ago and am not sure why this one frosted up and looked hazed over? Anyway. Both transformers are aluminum and the one in the back is rather big. No Gas Solenoid. :confused: Tweco Gun stamped USA but labeled assembled in Mexico. The ground clamp is top quality. :) All the electronics and (third) smaller tranformer and relay attached to front panel are marked Foreign Made.

http://www.firepoweronline.com/sales.html

http://home.comcast.net/~dcofer4/pics1/FP160inside.jpg

Here is the Firepower Regulator and did better with the picture maybe the camera thawed out :) The camera had been outside in the glove compartment 19 degrees or so last winter before taking the pics. This regulator don't even compare to the Hobart in my opinion and was a disappointment. Imagine visions of a Hobart Type Regulator setup then finding only this in the box. These are somewhat like the old pre-set regulators of many years ago.

http://home.comcast.net/~dcofer4/pics1/FPregulator.jpg

Also have an older pic of the drive assembly and a few others but can't find them right now or would post it too. Hope the resize works ok for these examples.

I am fairly sure the FP160 is NOT Made in America but it doesn't do to bad. It might be assembled here but I won't even say that. At a delivered price of $430 at the time think it was a decent deal. That's about all I think China Inside is worth for this one.

Never posted these on the Hobart website because didn't want to read a bunch of static about Made In USA. An open and away from One Brand Forum might be a good thing.

Anyway just wondering what the manufacturer name was on the Drive Motor for your 135. It is usually on the bell end if you ever get a chance to look at it again. Owned a Hobart 135 before the FP160 and kind of liked it better for doing sheetmetal although never looked under the hood. Your HH135 pictures are interesting and a lot better quality then mine were when using a cheap Fuji Finepix 1400.

Has anyone else popped the hood on a Hobart 175 or another small mig for pics? I'd like to see them.

Thanks

Dan
01-21-2004, 07:53 AM
Justlooking,

Here is a look at the inside of a HH 175. It is similar to the HH135. However the transformer and choke are copper wound.

JustLooking
01-21-2004, 04:15 PM
Hey Dan,

Thanks for the HH175 pic. I wish more manufacturers showed pictures of what is actually inside and how it all works for a package.

Years ago used a HH175 in a machine shop and it never let us down - not once. So I know they used to be good machines and imagine they still are. Think there are several good machines out there to choose from and what is inside might or might not be so important for the major players. The lack of a gas solenoid valve and adjustable argon regulator in the FP160 is a distraction for what is not included. Actually the pre-set regulator seems to work ok just no gages.

Found my other floppy disc with the FP160 drive picture stored on it. Hope the resize looks ok. The FP160 drive appears to be mostly plastic and the drive roller has an allen screw that is taken out to flip the roller around for wire size changes. If I remember right the Hobart 135 was the same way but it always stayed loaded for actual MIG operation on sheetmetal.

FP160 drive mech pic:

http://home.comcast.net/~dcofer4/FP160drive.jpg

Top shot of the FP160 exposed:

http://home.comcast.net/~dcofer4/FP160top.jpg

Had thought my aluminum transformer was copper but it was just a coating of insulation when looking at the terminal connections. Mine doesn't appear to have any additional insulation between the wraps on the transformer other then the dipped insulation. The Hobart - HH175 Transformer appears to be made better and copper is getting rare. Is the HH135 copper or aluminum?

This FP is the only welder ever had the cover off of for a look. Again pictures were taken right after unboxing it from delivery. It is definitely interesting to see inside of them and think the manufacturers should show more pictures of internals so curious people don't have to remove the cover. Regret not looking inside the HH135 and the previous pictures by Cutter and you are great for a look see inside Hobarts.

To my knowledge only HTP shows full shot of the inside of their mig welders for advertising. The diodes in the HTP rectifier seem to be substantial in size. There is no indication whether this is typically what they all look like or if this is a particular model for the HTP advertising.

http://www.htpweld.com/product_page/mig_welders/inside.html

HTP compares drive mechs for different brands - pics.

http://www.htpweld.com/product_page/mig_welders/comparison.html

This Adobe PDF link shows some of the Lincoln SP135 Plus and Miller MM135 internals but not a full shots. The Lincoln transformer appears to be well made and more insulated between wraps. My brother has the smallest Lincoln 220 volt mig bought about 8-10 years ago and has never had a problem with it. Should probably have listened to his recommendation to buy Lincoln but hey buying and learning is part of the fun sometimes.

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/av564.pdf

IMO the saving grace for the FP brand is it appears to weld ok considering never really had a problem. Had to do over again would have gotten a HH175 or an HTP. Might still order the HTP120 just to play around with it for sheetmetal because it is cheaper in price then the others in that size range. Some inside pics of the HTP 120 might be interesting to see too.

Would like to see what is inside a small Clarke mig and an Astro mig if anyone can share pics. Think it would be interesting.

Thanks :cool2:

Bolt
01-21-2004, 06:35 PM
I have a little Clarke mig, and the drive rolls and spool setup are virtualy identical to your setup above. The flip side is somewhat different than yours.

I can get some pics, but it will likely be next week before they are up here.

JustLooking
01-21-2004, 07:45 PM
Before people go poo poo'ing these Non-Major Brand of Migs to much.

The Firepower warranty is 5-2-1 Warranty - 5 years tranformer, 2 years total machine, and 1 year on gun. They have some faith in them lasting for at least 5 years for the transformers.

CLARKE POWER PRODUCTS INC.
For 10 years: The welder’s transformer and rectifier
For 2 years: The entire welder, including the welder’s Mig welding gun or arc Welding cables – as applicable (excluding accessories packed with the welder) Clarke seems to have even more faith in their transformers. Think the Clarke's are somewhat popular in England.

Have read nothing but good reports about this Clarke Mig for doing autobody & sheetmetal repairs. The 6 listed heat settings are suppose to offer more adjustments.

http://store.ineedparts.com/store/viewitem.asp?idProduct=19004

Both of these mig brands have what is considered a Gun/Torch gas control valve. Just for anyone interested in how that works without a gas solenoid valve setup it is in the torch. I prefer the solenoid though.

Not sure how the HTP 120 and other migs from that brand is setup. May have to find out soon. NO LOYALITY to anyone but myself from now until time ends.

Again would like to see the internals of other small migs if anyone cares to share. Will be looking for the Clarke centerfolds. :blush:

Gee would never have posted this on the Hobart Forum because of the :realmad:

cutter
01-21-2004, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Bolt
I have a little Clarke mig, and the drive rolls and spool setup are virtualy identical to your setup above. The flip side is somewhat different than yours.

I can get some pics, but it will likely be next week before they are up here.

Hey Bolt, where did you get your Clark?

I looked at & compared them at Texas Tool. Greg gave them a good report mostly because of the info provided by the rep he buys them from and because he has had zero customer complaints. He did not try to push it, just said he wouldn't be afraid of it. He also volunteered that he uses a Miller, 210 I think he said. He didn't push the Hobart on me either but I felt very comfortable buying it from him. Also, I had noticed that Sears had the same deal on the Clark. That further pushed me towards the Hobart. ;)

Robert D
01-21-2004, 08:37 PM
Dan.....if you look at the end of the copper where it is bolted down see if is alu...my mm251 looks like copper also until you look at the end...It has copper paint on my trans....It really does not matter to me. but a little miss leading.

Bolt
01-21-2004, 11:34 PM
Well Cutter, I got mine at Peavey Mart in Red Deer, Alberta. Now, that doesn't help you any. It has treated me well, and since lately I have been rigging it up to run off my Miller Bobcat engine drive, and using the CV settings off of that. I run the flux cored in it, and can get some good welds on some heavier plate, not to mention a much better duty cycle.

I wish it had a longer gun cable, and that the parts for the tips were a little more readily available localy (at the time I did not check Texas Tools), I just bit the bullet and ordered it from Clarke, I needed a new gas tip I think its called, the piece between the gun and the contact tip, the threads got galled up on me.

BTW, I get most/all my welding stuff from Milstead's Hardware & Welding in Plainview here. He treats me well, and so have the guys at TX Tools, I'm just not on a name to name basis there.

cutter
01-22-2004, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Bolt
He treats me well, and so have the guys at TX Tools, I'm just not on a name to name basis there.

The big guy in the glass office is Greg, the owner of course, a good & thoughtful guy in all respects. His right hand guy is the thirtyish blonde fellow, medium height, name of Phil. I like them both a lot. Very low key, lots of patience. Greg has recently started accumlating the oldest power tools he can find of all sorts for displaying in the store. I have managed to snag a couple of things to contribute & I notice that other customers are bringing things in. I suppose that says something about the way Greg has built his business over the years.

Another option you might try for Clarke parts would be Price Repair. They are the warranty station for most brands of welders.
1833 N. University 765-8402 Notice they are even on the north side of town, nearest you. Delbert Price is an old motorcycle jockey & mechanic, used to be the Kawasaki dealer 25 -30 years ago & has over the years expanded into all sorts of things, small engines, generators and welders. If I recall correctly, when I called and asked if they handled parts for the Clarke & did they stock parts; the answer was "yes" and "not many" but they will order anything you need, However, they do have parts for Tweco guns & I think yours is Tweco compatible so they might have your part. They might could do something about the cable length, too. I 'spect you'd need to to take it in with you. I think it's worth a shot.

Bolt
01-22-2004, 02:08 AM
Thanks for the good info Cutter, I shall put it to good use.

dfrazier
01-22-2004, 02:13 AM
Hey Bolt,
I have a Clarke 180 EN 220V mig and I love it. Finding consumables is pretty easy. The tips are tweco style and I have also seen replacement clarke tips at Sears. The gas nozzle takes the same one as Lincoln's 135 and 175 machines. Lincoln also has a gasless nozzle that will fit. If you are using flux-core wire it gives you a better view of the weld puddle and also keeps spatter from clogging up the diffuser. The only problem with using the gasless nozzle is that you have to be careful to not touch the contact tip to the work. With the gasless nozzel the tip sticks out about 1/4". Both the gas and gasless nozzles are available at Home Depot and Lowes. I haven't tried the Lincoln tips or diffuser but it looks the same as clarke's.

cutter
01-22-2004, 02:29 AM
Well, there you go Bolt. Sometimes the ether is balanced just right and the answers seem to swarm through the wormhole. Looks like dfrazier has the info you need. You gotta love these boards. Now if Price can extend that cable 2 or 3 feet for you, you'll be set. I wonder if the little drive motors can handle the extra length?

Bolt
01-22-2004, 03:02 AM
Yeah, thats what i was wondering, but if the little motor goes out, find a bigger one to put on there.

JustLooking
01-25-2004, 12:24 AM
Here is a description and internal exposure for the HTP Mig welders in an online viewable video sample:

http://www.autobodysupply.net/migwelders/htpproducts2.asf

Think they now offer 6 different Mig Welders including the HTP 120 Mig.

There is also a video from within the HTP Striker Helmet at this website:

http://www.autobodysupply.net/migwelders/htpproducts2.asf