Roll bar welding Q's
RSS | Subscribe | Contact Us | Advertise | About Us
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 67
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    433

    Roll bar welding Q's

    I'm putting a roll bar in my car shortly, and I'm not sure my welder is going to cut the mustard.. I'm going to stop by a local shop and get a small piece of tubing to test weld on it to make sure, but want some opinions from the experienced.

    it's a Lincoln pro mig 135


    Now the manual (PDF) page 20 says it can weld that much with flux core but not with gas...
    http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...r/im/IM787.pdf

    this is the deciding factor on whether or not to rent a stronger welder if I have to, or having someone else weld it up (which I'd rather save the moeny and do it myself).

    It's a mild steel, 10ga .135" tubing, cage....

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    489

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    i am afraid that lincoln 135 wont penetrate enough to weld that. i would at least step up to the 220 volt machines (hh187, miller 180,lincoln 180). also a lot of people tig weld their roll bars and roll cages. not that there is anything wrong with mig.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    3,372

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Note,

    Check any and all possible sanctioning bodies/groups for their rules/regs regarding rollbars before what is acceptable and required and prohibited -before- doing a rollbar. Different groups have different 'standards' and some overlap but others don't.

    That said, a 120V MIG machine isn't quite up to the task of working on 10 gauge tube IMHO. And 10 gauge is 0.140 (9/64) btw, not 0.135.
    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    433

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by down19992000 View Post
    i am afraid that lincoln 135 wont penetrate enough to weld that. i would at least step up to the 220 volt machines (hh187, miller 180,lincoln 180). also a lot of people tig weld their roll bars and roll cages. not that there is anything wrong with mig.

    That's what i figured... I'll rent a 220 machine.. I would love to tig it, but I never tigged before and I don't want to learn on my cage.. I'll be renting one come spring to learn.. I know it's not hard, but it isn't easy either..

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    433

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRise View Post
    Note,

    Check any and all possible sanctioning bodies/groups for their rules/regs regarding rollbars before what is acceptable and required and prohibited -before- doing a rollbar. Different groups have different 'standards' and some overlap but others don't.

    That said, a 120V MIG machine isn't quite up to the task of working on 10 gauge tube IMHO. And 10 gauge is 0.140 (9/64) btw, not 0.135.

    Checked already and I'm allowed mig welding. thanks for the tip.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    3,372

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Also note:

    If you have to ask if a 120V MIG is 'enough' welder to weld a rollcage, you really aren't ready to weld a rollcage.

    Practice and learn and maybe take some course(s) BEFORE you weld or attempt to weld a rollcage.

    It is deceptively easy to make a MIG weld that superficially looks fine, but is actually weak and barely fused into the parent metal.

    And a rollcage is not just for looks. It is there to save your A&& if things go wrong. Pretty but weak welds won't do it. Ugly and weak won't do it either.
    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    433

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    I'm a a fairly good welder, I was hearing that my welder might not be enough, so I figure before I dive into it, i'd ask around and go from there.. My fathers garage is wired for 220 so if I need to I'll rent a 220v mig and practice on some tubing and see.. I know someone that can weld the cage, but he's way down past atco..

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    5,234

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    That machine is WAY too clean to even consider calling yerself a fairly good welder
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
    MM252
    MM211
    Passport Plus & Spool gun
    TA 185
    Lincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    O/A set
    SO 2020 bender
    Beer in the fridge

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    67

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    if you have to ask if a 120V MIG is 'enough' welder to weld a rollcage, you really aren't ready to weld a rollcage.
    No offense moon but if I were speed I might be put off by this comment. He came here asking about a machine due to some confusion. His manual says that it will weld up to 1/4" (I know because I have the same machine) and have welded 1/4" plate with it, granted it was ground and preheated with multi-pass (which I learned to do from reading posts here and doing extra research). He might have great technique and do an excellent job on his roll cage as long as his machine is up to the task.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    3,372

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    No offense meant, or taken.

    Just to me, if I have to ask it means I don't know. If I don't know, it means I really shouldn't be doing something (potentially) dangerous.

    And doing a not-quite-so-good job on a rollcage is potentially dangerous IMHO.

    Hence my suggestion to practice, learn, and get some instruction if needed.
    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    67

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Ya I am all for practice and definately agree that a roll cage is not a time to learn. Just seemed like the question was more of a technical machine question than a "I just got a welder for my birthday and was thinking about building a roller coaster, what kind of tube should I buy for the tracks" type question

    Glad to see you didnt take offense

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Back in HB, close to my boys!!
    Posts
    4,664

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Martygras View Post
    Ya I am all for practice and definately agree that a roll cage is not a time to learn. Just seemed like the question was more of a technical machine question than a "I just got a welder for my birthday and was thinking about building a roller coaster, what kind of tube should I buy for the tracks" type question

    Glad to see you didnt take offense
    Paul- ZTFab does cage work all the time with his 135 Lincoln. I used to do a bunch of it with my Lincoln 100. The tube is in general .120 wall, and the 135 is good for .200 with no preheat, no problem. Nobody is making a cage out of 1/4" wall tube. The welder can do the job just fine; be sure to get good fitup to minimize your extra work, and you can do it. As to wether you are ready for an entire cage?? Get some guys who have some experience to help you, and just be sure to do the best job you possibly can; don't cut corners.


    GO FOR IT!!!!
    I think she is Bi-polar. She is a bear sometimes. Does this make her a BiPolar bear????

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    106

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    That machine is WAY too clean to even consider calling yerself a fairly good welder
    Ed, come on. . . . . If somebody takes good care of their tools, it means that they don't know how to use them? Gonna have to throw a BS flag on that play.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SF bay area
    Posts
    607

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    i second on checking your sanctioning body (im into classic mustangs) and im currently building an open tracker. If your putting it in because you think it looks cool, buy a bolt in one and save yourself the headache.

    If your getting into racing make sure the cage is allowed to be mig welded, and if it is turn that machine up and lay those passes in there nice and hot.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    557

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    That lincoln 135 will weld a roll cage just fine.
    Last edited by TSOR; 09-23-2008 at 03:27 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Westford, MA
    Posts
    114

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRise View Post
    It is deceptively easy to make a MIG weld that superficially looks fine, but is actually weak and barely fused into the parent metal..
    Let me reiterate this point, make a couple of out of position test welds and wack them with a hammer and make SURE the weld doesn't break. I was welding some 1/4" steel and decided to try my Lincoln 175 with 75/25 gas and 0.025" wire. The welds looked beautiful, but several wacks with a BFH caused every one to fracture at the weld.

    I stepped up to some 1/8" 6013 stick electrodes and was able to bend the steel, not fracture the weld!

    Chris

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,730

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreak87 View Post
    I'm putting a roll bar in my car shortly, and I'm not sure my welder is going to cut the mustard.. I'm going to stop by a local shop and get a small piece of tubing to test weld on it to make sure, but want some opinions from the experienced.

    it's a Lincoln pro mig 135


    Now the manual (PDF) page 20 says it can weld that much with flux core but not with gas...
    http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...r/im/IM787.pdf

    this is the deciding factor on whether or not to rent a stronger welder if I have to, or having someone else weld it up (which I'd rather save the moeny and do it myself).

    It's a mild steel, 10ga .135" tubing, cage....
    My two cents. Yes, it will handle 10 guage with fluxcore just fine. I base this on my experience with a Weldpak 100 I bought when Lincoln only made two Weldpaks, a 110 V and a 220V. It welds 3/16", one pass, with no trouble at all. Is it my favorite welder? Good Lord, no, but it sure handy.

    One tip, joint design matters in what you weld with any welding process. It will make or break the weld.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    1,618

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    The welder will work fine. One area to pay close attention to is where you tie it into the frame. Tube to tube is no problem, but if your frame is significantly heavier in that area, proceed with caution.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    433

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    That machine is WAY too clean to even consider calling yerself a fairly good welder
    lol! I have nothing to do with that.. that is my fathers doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martygras View Post
    Ya I am all for practice and definately agree that a roll cage is not a time to learn. Just seemed like the question was more of a technical machine question than a "I just got a welder for my birthday and was thinking about building a roller coaster, what kind of tube should I buy for the tracks" type question

    Glad to see you didnt take offense
    Yeah ti was a technical Q, I've been welding for a while with this welder, but nothing as thick as a roll bar. I'll be getting a piece to practice on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojodiablo View Post
    Paul- ZTFab does cage work all the time with his 135 Lincoln. I used to do a bunch of it with my Lincoln 100. The tube is in general .120 wall, and the 135 is good for .200 with no preheat, no problem. Nobody is making a cage out of 1/4" wall tube. The welder can do the job just fine; be sure to get good fitup to minimize your extra work, and you can do it. As to wether you are ready for an entire cage?? Get some guys who have some experience to help you, and just be sure to do the best job you possibly can; don't cut corners.


    GO FOR IT!!!!
    A buddy of mine will be watching over the process, I already asked him.


    Quote Originally Posted by drivethruboy54 View Post
    i second on checking your sanctioning body (im into classic mustangs) and im currently building an open tracker. If your putting it in because you think it looks cool, buy a bolt in one and save yourself the headache.

    If your getting into racing make sure the cage is allowed to be mig welded, and if it is turn that machine up and lay those passes in there nice and hot.
    Checked and double checked, it's able to be migged.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSOR View Post
    That lincoln 135 will weld a roll cage just fine.
    Thanks you.

    Quote Originally Posted by *chris* View Post
    Let me reiterate this point, make a couple of out of position test welds and wack them with a hammer and make SURE the weld doesn't break. I was welding some 1/4" steel and decided to try my Lincoln 175 with 75/25 gas and 0.025" wire. The welds looked beautiful, but several wacks with a BFH caused every one to fracture at the weld.

    I stepped up to some 1/8" 6013 stick electrodes and was able to bend the steel, not fracture the weld!

    Chris
    I'll deffinatly try the BFH on the sample stuff..

    Quote Originally Posted by Supe View Post
    The welder will work fine. One area to pay close attention to is where you tie it into the frame. Tube to tube is no problem, but if your frame is significantly heavier in that area, proceed with caution.
    It actually gets welded to 6x6 plates.. I'm not doing the whole through the floor sub frame connectors.. But I'll retain that info for the future.,



    Thanks for the info guys! it really helps!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    3,372

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    If the sanctioning body rules say MIG is allowable, that refers to GMAW.

    Flux-core is FCAW.

    And GMAW and FCAW are not exactly the same process.

    The PM135 can 'do' the thickness of your proposed roll-cage with FCAW, but not quite with GMAW. Moving up to a 180amp class (220-240V) MIG machine, and you could do that thickness tube with either FCAW or GMAW as those machines generally have the ooomph to do so.

    Also note that although I generally like Lincoln's NR-211-MP FCAW wire (the wire that came/comes with the PM135 and pretty much all of the Lincoln 'small' MIG machines and the one you can find easily at various stores) for around-the-house-or-shop projects and it is generally a nice wire, it is NOT rated for structural use and has NO listed impact properties nor does it have any requirement for meeting impact properties.

    In other words, I would NOT use NR-211-MP to weld a roll cage.

    Lincoln's 'standard' MIG wire is L-56, and is an ER70S-6 wire that has listed/rated impact properties. I would say that the L-56 wire would be a decent wire to use for a structural/impact application.

    It's not just the machine, but the wire and shielding gas choices that play a part in whether something is 'good' to use to weld a cage together.

    And invoking ZTFab in this discussion really isn't applicable. Speedfreak here is relatively new to welding (per his own introduction in the "Intro" section of the forums), while Paul/ZTFab is a welding cyborg.

    I thought my Lincoln 120V MIG machine (different label, pretty much the same as the PM135) did OK on 1/8 inch steel using FCAW 0.035 NR-211 wire, but didn't really have the snot to go much past that without all sorts of tricks. Although the door-chart claims up to 1/4 inch thick material is possible with that machine and 0.035 NR-211 FCAW wire, I thought welding that thickness was pretty iffy. With GMAW and 0.030 or 0.023/0.025 L-56 wire and C25 gas, it seems to top-out at around 14-16 gauge material, which is what the door-chart says as well.

    10 gauge with the PM135 and GMAW? Nope, the machine just doesn't really have enough snot. Remember, those machines are 90A rated (at a 20% duty cycle). They are nice and handy machines within their limits.

    But that's why I also have a 240V MIG machine. Because I kind of found the limits of the 120V MIG machine pretty quickly.

    And 0.025 L-56 with C-25 gas tops out at a rated 12 gauge with the SP175 machine. You just can't get enough amps through that little wire to do 1/4 inch thick workpieces. Go to 0.035 L-56 with C-25 and you would be close to being able to work on that 1/4 inch thick piece.
    Last edited by MoonRise; 09-24-2008 at 01:29 PM. Reason: more info
    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cassville, Missouri
    Posts
    2,116

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Moonrise said it. Flux core is not Mig. Also I dont care how goo of a welder you are Get a few Tube projects with triangulation under your belt before trying a Rollbar. You fitting skill will be as important as the welding.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Central NJ
    Posts
    433

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    I went and picked up some tubing today, I'll see what comes of it this weekend.. Like stated if this weld can't cut it, I will rent a stronger one.. I appreciate all your info.

  23. #23

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojodiablo View Post
    Paul- ZTFab does cage work all the time with his 135 Lincoln. I used to do a bunch of it with my Lincoln 100. The tube is in general .120 wall, and the 135 is good for .200 with no preheat, no problem. Nobody is making a cage out of 1/4" wall tube. The welder can do the job just fine; be sure to get good fitup to minimize your extra work, and you can do it. As to wether you are ready for an entire cage?? Get some guys who have some experience to help you, and just be sure to do the best job you possibly can; don't cut corners.


    GO FOR IT!!!!
    The 135 will do the roll bar with FCAW and not MIG. Cages need to be MIG or TIG. If you are not going to certify the cage and you are real good with FCAW, then go fo rit.

    I got TIG because MIG welding a cage is very hard do the the speed you need to move.
    Last edited by malich; 09-27-2008 at 08:56 PM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Back in HB, close to my boys!!
    Posts
    4,664

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by malich View Post
    The 135 will do the roll bar with FCAW and not MIG. Cages need to be MIG or TIG. If you are not going to certify the cage and you are real good with FCAW, then go fo rit.

    I got TIG because MIG welding a cage is very hard do the the speed you need to move.
    What in the world are you talking about???!!! Mig is faster than tig, by FAR. Not even close as far as speed is concerned. And, as for your and Moonrises' lack of fact on the thickness you are talking about welding with this welder, look at the FACTS:

    Fact: 98% of all rollcages are done in .120 wall tubing. Regardless of diameter of tube, the wall thickness is STILL only .120 Or...not even 1/8" thick.
    Fact: Most truck frames are thin, or thinner at best. A Ford ranger frame?? .105 thick. A Toyota Tacoma frame? .100 thick. An F150? .120 thick. A Chevy 2500/3500 frame?? .185 thick.

    So, the theory that you can not weld the heavier frame parts is FALSE. The part where the 135 amp machine can not weld .120 is FALSE. The part where you talked right out your other end about tig being faster than mig is FALSE.

    Once you learn this stuff, and stop repeating what you heard, second hand, from a guy.... who knows a guy....then answer the question correctly for the man.

    The 135 CAN mig weld 3/16 in one pass. Not a problem at all if you are decent with the welder.
    I think she is Bi-polar. She is a bear sometimes. Does this make her a BiPolar bear????

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    houston, TX
    Posts
    50

    Re: Roll bar welding Q's

    That's probably a little weak for that job, however keep in mind I did a rollbar in a pure stock car with 1/8 in. 6011's. and it worked just fine .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
RSS | Home | Penton Media | Contact Us | Subscribe | For Advertisers | Terms of Use | Privacy Statement