Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc
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  1. #1
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    Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    I recently picked up a lincoln 175 promig to replace my chicago electric that I've had for years (but only use occasiionally).
    At the bottom of this thread is my original thread (that was posted in the harbor frieght forum).
    Long story short, I was having this "non-starting" problem with the old welder, so upgraded to a better welder..still the same problem. I thought I had narrowed it down to a cleaning issue but it doesn't seem so after yesterdays problem. See my question/descrption next.

    OK, using my new lincoln promig175 with gas and .035 solid wire (hi cleaning action stuff). I had the same "unable to keep a smooth arc" going. I ensured that the weld surface was clean and grounded well. This sputtering and sparking non start seems to occur when I'm welding a 1/4" flange to 1/16" square tube. Anyway, I tried turning up the power turning up the wire speed and nothing helped much (maybe faster wire helped a bit). Anyway, I finally laid down a wab of metal that I'm sure is a sucky weld, I ground out the excess and made it look better and moved on to weld the other side of the flange. To my amazement and without changine any settings, the other side welded up like I was a pro....so, what the hell...I need to find out the cause of this because I cant buld reliably if i cant weld reliably....I'm sure its something stupid I'm doing....can the gas be up to high (I know it can and I have it turned to a medium flow but I have no flow meter so rely on sound and feel). The angle of both sides (of my nozzel to part) was pretty much the same. I need to know what I'm doing wrong. I didn't replace my tip but I got a good weld with it on the second side???? How important is the tip....I have stuck it once or twice when I was set up for flux core with no gas diffuser on the end..


    ************************************************** ************************************************** *****************************************
    I've had my chicago electric (I think it was from harbor freight) for about 10 years. I'm not much of a welder and my need to weld is usually a small project every year or so.
    I've always had trouble using my welder and always attributed it to wire speed, gas output, not matchting power level. (my polarity is correct for gass BTW), I'm on a new project (welding with 1" square tubing 1/16" thick) and have been doing OK up until last night. After welding/working on the project for about 2 hours I fabricated a new piece and was about to tack it in place. No changes to settings at all that had been sucessful earlier. I could get the arc stable and it was spttering and sparking and leaving a mess where my nice weld was to be.
    I slowed and speed the wire up to no avail. lower gas pressure to see if maybe I was blowing to much wind past...no help.
    I dont know if its just me or if the welder has a problem? This has happened at times before but it always seems to come out of it and work later.
    I saw a thread where someone added a capacitor to stabilize the arc.
    Can anyone give me some advice...

  2. #2
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Got pictures?

    What gas C/25?

    What are your settings?

    David
    Real world weldin.

    When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.

  3. #3
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Gas is CO2/argon mix (not sure on the ratio)
    the lincoln 175 was on setting B wih feed set to 2.

    What I finally ended up with on the bad side seemed like bad penetration and the steel was pileing up. I'll get some pictures tonight and show what I ended up with (on the good side because the bad side I ground it out). I've been avoiding showing pictures of my welds but I guess I'll have to take the criticisum sooner or later..:-)

    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Got pictures?

    What gas C/25?

    What are your settings?

    David

  4. #4
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Sounds way too cold. 1/4" thick to 1/16"? or more like your welding 1/16 to the thicker 1/4. Anyway that setting will not work with .035 Try and put it on tap D or E if there is one and put feed on 5.5 - 7 try that and see if it helps.
    weld it like you own it

  5. #5
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Well, I actaully did move it to C in a desperate attempt to "try something" and it still was having problems. I'll get shots of what I was welding and post them

    This is a link to the directory of 5 shots showing the weld.
    The ones with the "x" appended on the end are super large for more detail
    http://www.grimlabs.com/weld/

    (no comments about the garage mess..:-) I know how to fix that)
    Last edited by kb9nvh; 09-30-2008 at 07:29 AM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    You say you cleaned. I have discovered over the years that NO mig welder will weld properly without an extremely clean GROUND surface AND weld area surface. I also attempt to attach the ground to what I am welding (after grinding a clean spot to attach ground) and not to my metal bench. If configuration of the item being welded is such that it's impractable to attach ground clamp to item being welded, grind a clean spot on your bench, another spot where the welded item will be contacting the bench, and make sure the item is clamped solidly to the bench.

    Your statement that after you welded the one side then turned it over and got a good weld, sort of confirms my thoughts on clean. The new weld appears to have made a good contact with your bench.

    Also be sure to stay out of the wind to ensure good gas flow around the weld zone. If shielding gas is removed, crappy weld. I do a lot of Aluminum MIG welding of dump truck bodies. Most are too big to get in my shop. If the wind is blowing, I can't weld. Looks like a chicken with diarrhea did the job

    CLEAN can't be over done when MIG welding.

  7. #7
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Well, I am using oil now to drill my holes (man its like a miracle, bits stay sharp, holes drill cleaner),
    I was clamped to the part but not ground clean.

    its possible wind was an issue cause the garage door was open.

  8. #8
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Are the welds on the second side that you say go down better placed immediately after or do you grind on the side you welded first? Reason asking is if you have heat in the base and welds get better you need to turn the welder up for the first pass.

  9. #9
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    I'm not familiar with your welder to comment on the settings but it could be a tad on the cool side. Some 'pre-grind out' shots would be nice but more importantly though that material is NOT clean at the joints and could be the root cause of your problem. Use that grinder before you weld and clean that rust and scale off and I think you'll have better success.

    I know you said not to say anything but at least move those gas cans away from your work area.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    You know, I didn't even realize they were there until I looked at the picture myself. Guess I'm a candidate for the Darwin awards.
    I'll go photoshop them out now..LOL

    I did grind everything before I started..you sure your just not seeing after weld dirtiness?
    I did not grind the ground clamp but I had the tab I was welding over on the grind wheel and cleaned every edge. The square tube I used my hand grinder on and it was shiny. I did not use any acetone or mineral spirits though...and the oil from the drilling may have still be creeping around some...

    Quote Originally Posted by duaneb55 View Post
    I'm not familiar with your welder to comment on the settings but it could be a tad on the cool side. Some 'pre-grind out' shots would be nice but more importantly though that material is NOT clean at the joints and could be the root cause of your problem. Use that grinder before you weld and clean that rust and scale off and I think you'll have better success.

    I know you said not to say anything but at least move those gas cans away from your work area.

  11. #11
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    It was after I ground out the first side...I needed to see how bad it really was.

    Quote Originally Posted by flatbustedbroke View Post
    Are the welds on the second side that you say go down better placed immediately after or do you grind on the side you welded first? Reason asking is if you have heat in the base and welds get better you need to turn the welder up for the first pass.

  12. #12
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    So cold starts and arc sputtering, and its done this with not one but two welders now? Have you checked the power output of your electrical circuit? Do you run any sort of extension cord with either welder? Not wiping down a material with acetone after grinding has little to do with the inability to establish a solid arc with the MIG process. 9 times out of 10 that I see this problem, it is with smaller units, and they're not getting enough juice to function properly.

    If you can, try a different outlet or try it at a buddy's house to verify.

  13. #13
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Well, I wired the garage myself and the 220 outlets are all wired with #10 wire and its a seperate circuit so nothing else is being fed from that 220 ganged breaker. Now, the entire garage is fed from the house main with aluminum wire and I cant remember but its what is used when you wire up a mobile home (4/8/4 maybe) and I think I set it up for 100amps (I'll have to look again). Now, the outlets were 220V 20A outlets that I adapted to the "dryer" plug (30 amp plug) that was on the lincoln. Also, since I was only on the B setting it shouldn't have been too taxing on the system. But, there still could be some issue in the power distribution and I might try a different plug next time it happens (thanks for the tip).
    Also, to add ammo to your theory, this never seemed to happen (dont remember it happening) when I was using the outlet in the back of the shop.
    Last edited by kb9nvh; 09-30-2008 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    I can tell you why this happens to me with a hobart handler 135.
    The ground clamp that comes with the machine only conducts well one one jaw, the jaw the cable comes out of. The other jaw conducts very poorly.

    My solution for the moment is to pay attention to which way around I mount the ground clamp, I put the cable jaw on the metal I grind clean for my ground.

  15. #15
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    "035 solid wire (hi cleaning action stuff)"

    ?? What do you mean "hi cleaning action stuff"?

    The manual for the ProMIG-175 suggests voltage C for 16 gauge (1/16 inch) material and wire speed 3.5 using 0.030 solid wire (Lincoln L-56 ER70S-6 wire) and C25 gas. Settings move up to D-5.5 for 14 gauge material with the same wire and gas, and up to E-7.5 for 12 gauge material. Setting B-2 with 0.030 L-56 wire and C25 gas is the suggested setting for welding 20 gauge sheetmetal (thin stuff).

    I don't see any listed parameters for using 0.035 solid steel wire and gas (aka MIG) in the ProMIG-175 manual.

    Settings for 0.035 NR211-MP FCAW wire and NO GAS (!!) on 14 gauge material are B-2.

    Something doesn't match up there.

    Furthermore, the manual recommends using #8 AWG copper wire to feed the circuit/outlet that the ProMIG-175 is using.

    The manual lists several things to check for under "Troubleshooting - Arc is unstable". They are:

    1. Check for correct input voltage to machine. See Installation section, “Electrical Input Connections”.

    2. Check for proper electrode polarity for process.

    3. Check gun tip for wear or damage and proper size – Replace.

    4. Check for proper gas and flow rate for process. (For MIG only.)

    5. Check work cable for loose or faulty connections.

    6. Check gun for damage or breaks.

    7. Check for proper drive roll orientation and alignment.

    8. Check liner for proper size.

    You need to have the area where the work lead (aka 'ground clamp') is grabbing to be clean bare metal. No rust or paint or oil in the way.

    You also should double-check your settings and the wire size and type (what does the label on the wire spool say?) and do a check on all the connections in the torch and machine to make sure everything is snug and seated properly. And maybe double-check the wiring and circuit breaker and panel connections as well to make sure that everything is snug and tight like it's supposed to be.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Wire is 0.035 and is solid core...my chart only shows that thick of wire as flux core. listed as NS115 Copper free, heat 67136 size 0.035 I looked this up and its allows dirtier surfaces than other wire.

    I dont see any non-flux core listed at 0.035 either so I thought I was using the flux core levels..I'll recheck this as setting C on 3.5 would be way different than what I was doing..also, wire seemed somewhat slow for what i was doing set at 2.

    WOW, number 8 wire at 220...thats what an electric range needs. I'll move to a new outlet that is closer to the distribution to avoid voltage drop due to run length. I think the outlet I'm using is a good 100ft out from the box.

    thanks for all the tips...I'll go through the checklist from the book

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRise View Post
    "035 solid wire (hi cleaning action stuff)"

    ?? What do you mean "hi cleaning action stuff"?

    The manual for the ProMIG-175 suggests voltage C for 16 gauge (1/16 inch) material and wire speed 3.5 using 0.030 solid wire (Lincoln L-56 ER70S-6 wire) and C25 gas. Settings move up to D-5.5 for 14 gauge material with the same wire and gas, and up to E-7.5 for 12 gauge material. Setting B-2 with 0.030 L-56 wire and C25 gas is the suggested setting for welding 20 gauge sheetmetal (thin stuff).

    I don't see any listed parameters for using 0.035 solid steel wire and gas (aka MIG) in the ProMIG-175 manual.

    Settings for 0.035 NR211-MP FCAW wire and NO GAS (!!) on 14 gauge material are B-2.

    Something doesn't match up there.

    You need to have the area where the work lead (aka 'ground clamp') is grabbing to be clean bare metal. No rust or paint or oil in the way.

    And maybe double-check the wiring and circuit breaker and panel connections as well to make sure that everything is snug and tight like it's supposed to be.
    Last edited by kb9nvh; 09-30-2008 at 04:35 PM.

  17. #17
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Aren't there settings inside the door? In the manual. If it doesn't list settings for .035, then don't run it.

    Get some .030. NO wire is good for "dirty metal". Clean it!

    Oil residue will trash your welds every time. No need for acetone, or mineral spirits. Grind clean and use an alcohol based solvent to get rid of the oil.

    David
    Real world weldin.

    When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.

  18. #18
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Quote Originally Posted by kb9nvh View Post
    .can the gas be up to high (I know it can and I have it turned to a medium flow but I have no flow meter so rely on sound and feel).
    How do you have the Gas connected?

    What is controlling the Flow?


    The 175 only draws 20 amps- I believe Lincoln is being a little cautious with the #8 wiring.

    The 10 should work just fine.




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  19. #19
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Lincoln made it pretty easy- Just follow the Chart

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  20. #20
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    OK, I looked up your wire.

    NS-115 is a Heico/National Standard brand ER70S-6 wire. The copper-free version doesn't have a copper outer coat, the other version has a copper outer coat.

    Recommended shielding gases are CO2, 75-95% Argon - balance CO2, and 95-98% Argon - balance O2.

    Recommended running parameters for that wire in 0.035 size and CO2 for short-circuit transfer are:

    100 - 150 - 250 ipm wire speed

    18 - 19 - 22 volts (that's using CO2, drop 1-2 volts if using C20-C25 gas)

    80 - 120 - 175 amps

    Voltage tap "B" is not enough voltage for that wire at that wire speed for the thickness metals you are/were welding.

    And an ER70S-6 does 'allow' or tolerate a bit more millscale than an S-3 wire, but solid MIG wires do NOT 'tolerate' as much crud on the metal as say a fluxcore wire or a SMAW (aka 'stick') electrode which have more flux (actually they have flux, solid MIG wires don't have any) to take care or tolerate a little bit more rust/oil/scale/crud.

    The best general plan is to get rid of 'crud' and weld bare, clean metal.

    I think you had several things all going the wrong way. You had the machine set too low, you had too much crud on the metal, you didn't have a good 'ground' (work clamp) connection because you had crud there too, and your voltage at the outlet the machine is plugged into is a bit low (which makes the machine's output a little bit lower than what you set on the dials).

    Don't try to use parameters for FCAW wire with GMAW wire. They don't match up like that.

    A better 'guess' would have been to look at the way the voltage and wire-speed changed on the chart as the solid wire changed from 0.025 to 0.030 and then tried to extrapolate that settings progression to the next bigger size 0.035 solid wire.

    Which for 14 guage steel workpieces would be about mid-dial voltage and mid-dial wire-speed on your machine (as best as I can guess from here). Fine tune from there up-down a little bit as needed.

    NOTE: Do NOT change your voltage on that tapped voltage machine while the machine is energized/on/welding. You will do bad things to the machine. Stop welding (the really wary will turn the machine OFF to avoid inadvertently energizing the machine by an accidental touch onto the gun trigger), and then change the voltage as desired. Then turn the machine back on and make a test weld to check how the parameters are. You CAN adjust the wire speed while welding.
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  21. #21
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    So I have to throw/give away my giant spool of 0.035 not flux solid?
    Damn, at the pace I weld that was gonna last me another 5 years.

    Gas is connected through the regulator that came with the unit and I just have it coming out at a good gentle pace. i dont have a flow meter and I'm only guessing at what the proper flow should be. I'm certain the flow would not blow out a candle but its enough to feel with your finger as it flows out

    This is my chart below..

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    Lincoln made it pretty easy- Just follow the Chart


  22. #22
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Nice info...I'll be back at it at least by Friday and will let everyone know how it goes. I've burned through some of my butt edges on the 1/16 inch stuff and so have been wary to use too much power (I joined my bottom frame square tube by cutting the tube at 45deg angles and butted them together and welded the seams).


    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRise View Post
    OK, I looked up your wire.

    NS-115 is a Heico/National Standard brand ER70S-6 wire. The copper-free version doesn't have a copper outer coat, the other version has a copper outer coat.

    Recommended shielding gases are CO2, 75-95% Argon - balance CO2, and 95-98% Argon - balance O2.

    Recommended running parameters for that wire in 0.035 size and CO2 for short-circuit transfer are:

    100 - 150 - 250 ipm wire speed

    18 - 19 - 22 volts (that's using CO2, drop 1-2 volts if using C20-C25 gas)

    80 - 120 - 175 amps

    Voltage tap "B" is not enough voltage for that wire at that wire speed for the thickness metals you are/were welding.

    And an ER70S-6 does 'allow' or tolerate a bit more millscale than an S-3 wire, but solid MIG wires do NOT 'tolerate' as much crud on the metal as say a fluxcore wire or a SMAW (aka 'stick') electrode which have more flux (actually they have flux, solid MIG wires don't have any) to take care or tolerate a little bit more rust/oil/scale/crud.

    The best general plan is to get rid of 'crud' and weld bare, clean metal.

    I think you had several things all going the wrong way. You had the machine set too low, you had too much crud on the metal, you didn't have a good 'ground' (work clamp) connection because you had crud there too, and your voltage at the outlet the machine is plugged into is a bit low (which makes the machine's output a little bit lower than what you set on the dials).

    Don't try to use parameters for FCAW wire with GMAW wire. They don't match up like that.

    A better 'guess' would have been to look at the way the voltage and wire-speed changed on the chart as the solid wire changed from 0.025 to 0.030 and then tried to extrapolate that settings progression to the next bigger size 0.035 solid wire.

    Which for 14 guage steel workpieces would be about mid-dial voltage and mid-dial wire-speed on your machine (as best as I can guess from here). Fine tune from there up-down a little bit as needed.

    NOTE: Do NOT change your voltage on that tapped voltage machine while the machine is energized/on/welding. You will do bad things to the machine. Stop welding (the really wary will turn the machine OFF to avoid inadvertently energizing the machine by an accidental touch onto the gun trigger), and then change the voltage as desired. Then turn the machine back on and make a test weld to check how the parameters are. You CAN adjust the wire speed while welding.

  23. #23
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    Your 0.035 solid ER70S-6 wire should be fine and your machine -should- be able to 'drive' it OK.

    Just use the right volts-amps settings for the solid wire and don't try to use volts-amps settings for fluxcore wire (from the door chart).

    Because they are different wires and use different volts-amps, even if they both have the same wire outside diameter.

    And clean things off before welding them. You can't weld rust or millscale, and you definitely can't weld oil (or paint or grease, etc).

    And make sure the work clamp (aka 'ground' clamp) makes a good connection to the workpiece.
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  24. #24
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    OK, I just measure my square tubing and its #14 0.075" not #16 so another reason to boost the power.

    So, when welding my 1/4" stuff to the the smaller stuff what do I choose on the chart..the larger or smaller?


    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRise View Post
    Your 0.035 solid ER70S-6 wire should be fine and your machine -should- be able to 'drive' it OK.

    Just use the right volts-amps settings for the solid wire and don't try to use volts-amps settings for fluxcore wire (from the door chart).

    Because they are different wires and use different volts-amps, even if they both have the same wire outside diameter.

    And clean things off before welding them. You can't weld rust or millscale, and you definitely can't weld oil (or paint or grease, etc).

    And make sure the work clamp (aka 'ground' clamp) makes a good connection to the workpiece.

  25. #25
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    Re: Mig Spitting and sputtering non-start arc

    KB9,

    This whole posting is crazy.

    What type regulator "came with the machine" that doesn't show flow rate. Is this a used machine that someone replaced the flowmeter (standard) with a regulator. Until you know how much gas you're flowing, you might as well be pissing in the wind.

    Why did you install .035 wire in the first place? The smaller migs (under about 180A) tend to run much better with .030 solid wire than they do with .035. That, combined with the fact that your door chart doesn't list .035 wire should have been an indicator.

    You need to verify that you are using C25 (75% Argon/25% CO2). You'll get a little less splatter with C25, but you'll get more penetration with straight CO2, but that's going to require a different flowmeter. (Standard flowmeter will likely freeze up)

    From your photos, it's clear that you're running way too cold. That one photo which showed the 1/4" piece (vertical) showed NO penetration at all. Just a glob of metal where two pieces of steel came together.

    Not trying to rain on your parade, but you need a lot more practice on coupons. In all those photos, I saw nothing that would pass as an "acceptable weld".

    From those photos, it appears that you are attempting to build something with a steering linkage. I hope you don't plan to put that on the road anytime soon.
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