Watching the puddle 7018 up - Page 2

# Thread: Watching the puddle 7018 up

1. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

I have a question: If travel speed, arc length remain the same but the center of the weave is building up (maybe sagging) this would or could be caused by the temp rising in the plate.

As suggested by Snoeproe to turn down the amps as i get closer to the top of the cap pass

Does anybody have any pictures of a completed 3g stick that they could post up.

I think I have some help available next Saturday on this. I know the more I practice the better it is getting but I also think I am somewhat stuck.

Anyway thanks again for the help

Joe

2. DSW
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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

I almost always find if the center is too high, you aren't moving fast enough side to side, or aren't pausing long enough on the edges. Travel speed, the distance you move along the joint is separate from this.

Usually if the edges are washed in well, a tall center means you aren't traveling fast enough across the center to the other side. If you are getting undercut on the edge, then it's usually indicative of the fact you need to pause longer at the end of the side to side movement. I do all of this based on what I see the puddle doing, not on any thing based on "time".

To break it down so it's easier to understand the best example I have thought of is time based however. You need the sides to have the same "time" as the center. A hump in the middle means you spent more time there, hence you deposited more material. I see a lot of students spend a count of "1" on the left, a count of "1" crossing the center to the right,a count of "1" on the right, a count of "1" crossing the center back to the left where they started. Using this example, you have a total of "1" on the left, "2" ( 1+1) in the center and a "1" on the right. If the sides are washed in well, that means you have 2 times the amount of material you want/need in the center. You need to pick up the pace crossing the center so you spend 1/2 the amount of time there.

Using the same example, if the student spends a count of "1" on the left, a count of "1/2" crossing the center to the right,a count of "1" on the right, a count of "1/2" crossing the center back to the left where they started, you have a total of "1" on the left, "1" ( 1/2+1/2) in the center and a "1" on the right. If the sides are washed in well, that means you have about the correct amount of material you want/need in the center.

I almost never see someone who crosses the center too fast and has piles on the sides and not enough material in the center on average, assuming there travel speed along the length of the weld is close to correct. The only time I see that is if they have massive slag inclusions because they are outrunning the puddle by traveling too fast.

The other big thing I see is guys motions are too large. They go too slow because they are trying to jump up to far with each side to side cycle. Lets say they do 4 "cycles" left to right and back to move forward 1". That means that they jump up 1/4" with each side to side cycle. To get good "fill" they need to travel slower side to side. Instead if they do say 16 cycles, they only jump up 1/16" each time. This means they have to move faster to prevent the weld material from piling up. There's a lot of motion in the rod, but the material laid down is smaller, so it's easier to control. Also on average I find you can move "faster" traveling up the joint, because you can use more amps and thus reduce the total heat going into the piece.

If the plate is heating up too much and the weld is getting "runny", you automatically correct for this if you are reading the puddle. You either close up your arc length slightly to cool the weld down so the puddle gets "stiffer" or you slightly increase your travel speed, if not both. Rod angle can also play a part. If the rod is tipped to far down, you are long arcing in the front of the rod, and short arcing at the back. That tosses a to of heat out in front of the puddle. If you move closer to 90 deg, you shorten up that arc in the front and reduce the heat moving ahead of the puddle some what. I think someone just commented on this after seeing Lanse doing this in his video. This is one of those subtle things that can be easily picked up while watching someone else weld, or that someone who knows what to look for can spot if they are watching you weld.

I'm a bit swamped right now trying to beat two different deadlines, but I'll see if I can't get some time in the next week to try and run a few.

3. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Excellent write up DSW!

Dave J.

4. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Excellent write up DSW!

Dave J.
I agree Thank you very much for taking the time.

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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Every night I get on here and read how other people do things.
The amount of info here is amazing.
If I can absorb even a bit of it I will be better for it.
Thanks
Chris

6. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Wish I could do a nice weave, never tried it. I do see a lot of really nice weaves in the oilfield. Something about the oilfield seems to attract the best welders, you see some beautiful structural welds.

Your progress is great, it's been a pleasure to watch it. Thanks for putting it up.

7. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by snowshoveler
Every night I get on here and read how other people do things.
The amount of info here is amazing.
If I can absorb even a bit of it I will be better for it.
Thanks
Chris
I second that. Thanks DSW.

It appears that the pattern is a figure 8. Is that true? Is there a reason for the pattern type? Eights versus circles versus zig-zag or something else?

The photos are helping me out too. Thanks JPS.

8. DSW
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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Pattern honestly doesn't matter. It's what works for you. I can do a figure 8, circles, V motion etc, but usually I do a Z or C motion.

It's about watching the puddle and waiting for the puddle to catch up to the arc on the sides and moving quick across the middle.

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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by DSW
Pattern honestly doesn't matter. It's what works for you. I can do a figure 8, circles, V motion etc, but usually I do a Z or C motion.

It's about watching the puddle and waiting for the puddle to catch up to the arc on the sides and moving quick across the middle.
Try to do a rainbow motion as well. even pushing the rod towards the top works as well.. I change it up a bit on on vertical. It's all about the mood and feel of the day..
Last edited by ShortbusWelder; 04-18-2013 at 11:06 PM.

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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

DSW - Great suggestions, critique and advice. I feel like I'm in welding school again, and I always learn something from your posts. Cheers

11. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by chuckhole
I second that. Thanks DSW.

It appears that the pattern is a figure 8. Is that true? Is there a reason for the pattern type? Eights versus circles versus zig-zag or something else?

The photos are helping me out too. Thanks JPS.
Actually it is not a Fig 8 when you hold on each side to fill it makes a fair size puddle then you go across the center quite fast as to not build up the center then make a puddle on the other side. When you don't keep your travel "up" real tight you get the look of two puddle next to each other " Fig 8"
From what I have seen many run this cap like that, I am trying to get/keep my tighter.

I am glad the pictures are helpful, sometimes I think its showing what not to do

I worked on it quite a bit today and had some help from an Instructor he showed me a little different way to run my fill pass, it helped quite a bit in keeping my fill pass flat, witch in turn help keep my cover pass flat, one of the 2 things I have been struggling with.

So now I can bring my fill pass up a little higher allowing me to run my cap a little faster

My Camera is in my truck up North so I wasn't able to take any pics today of the progress but I will this coming week.

Thanks for the posative comments and keeping the thread going, I am getting closer to getting this Done

12. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by ShortbusWelder
Try to do a rainbow motion as well. even pushing the rod towards the top works as well.. I change it up a bit on on vertical. It's all about the mood and feel of the day..
Short Bus
Can you explain a little more on the Pushing the rod towards the top, I think I understood the Rainbow.

I am running my fill pass in an arc (rainbow,horseshoe) then quick across the bottom this fills in the groove pretty well and stays flat, I am sure I could run my cap this way also but will keep working on the weave for now

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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by JPS
Short Bus
Can you explain a little more on the Pushing the rod towards the top, I think I understood the Rainbow.

I am running my fill pass in an arc (rainbow,horseshoe) then quick across the bottom this fills in the groove pretty well and stays flat, I am sure I could run my cap this way also but will keep working on the weave for now
Sometimes I just push the rod up. I angle my rod slighty upwards, and just push the rod up and in.. It's easier to show then explain, but that's the best I can do.. lol

Don't go across the bottom of the rainbow, just side to side in a ranbow motion.. WHen you go across, you may trap slag.. Then once you're on the bottom you have to make a bigger jump to get back on top..

I have done small zzzzzz motions as well..

14. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Thanks all for the pictures and replies. After some more practice on small projects, this is all starting make sense to me. This thread is becoming an old friend.

15. DSW
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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

I grabbed a few picts from class the other night and finally had a chance to upload them. Not perfect, but some pretty good examples of 7018 vertical up fillets.

Lincoln Jet-LH® 78 MR® E7018 H4R, 1/8" 100-115 amps IIRC, 3/8" plate . Not my favorite rod. The puddle isn't the easiest to read compared to some others I've run.

Consistency could use a bit of work, but with the puddle being a bit hard to read, that's no big surprise. No undercut, sides wetted in nice, beads look a bit coarser than they really were with the lights the way they were in the shop. The flash blotted out all the detail so I had to shoot with using the overhead lights and push the ISO up to get decent picts. The angled pict shows approximately how smooth the beads were.

Pretty much all of these were just a simple side to side motion. Either a Z or "rainbow" motion, pausing on the sides and moving fast across the center.

16. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

DSW

Thank you for taking the time to post these Pictures I will study them

This is the last set I ran Close but still a couple little undercuts, What really gets me is I run a cap between 2 weld beads and I can get a tight weave almost like my 6013 run on the Bottom, but when I run a cap over my welded groove I don't run it tight enough. but like I said I will get it someday

The 2 problem I see That I am Having

1 The sharp corner of the top of the groove is not my friend I keep cutting into it Rather than just letting the puddle flow over it

2 I don't think I can focus fast enough on the corners to see the Undercut happening, Price of getting older

The good news is That I will get it someday and I really enjoy the Challenge

Last thing the other Picture is 6013 1/8" DCEN was playing a little

Thanks again for the help

Joe

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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Do you guys run stringers at all, or all just weaves???

I was taught to run multiple stringers then one big weave..

I would learn to run both, but I wouldn't want to be weaving any bigger then what the pictures show.. I personally would've ran tighter weaves too, but that's me..

18. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

The 3 G test allows for a weave or stringers for the fill, at least that's what the CWI that I am testing with tells me, but the cover has to be a weave, so that's what I have been working on and having some trouble with yes I also practice my stringers.

The weave in my pictures is just the width of the groove on the 3/8" plate 3g test

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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by JPS
The 3 G test allows for a weave or stringers for the fill, at least that's what the CWI that I am testing with tells me, but the cover has to be a weave, so that's what I have been working on and having some trouble with yes I also practice my stringers.

The weave in my pictures is just the width of the groove on the 3/8" plate 3g test
Yea, that's why I thought you ran a big weave like that. The only time I did was on a plate test. I don't like running weaves that big. I'm more of a pipe welder, and we run stringers more then weaves, but like most, I can adapt to the situation and make quality welds..

What amps where you running at? What tech/s are you using?

20. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by ShortbusWelder
Yea, that's why I thought you ran a big weave like that. The only time I did was on a plate test. I don't like running weaves that big. I'm more of a pipe welder, and we run stringers more then weaves, but like most, I can adapt to the situation and make quality welds..

What amps where you running at? What tech/s are you using?
About 100 amps I have been playing with it up and down a bit but My Dialarc doesn't have a digital read out and the dials seem to be way off, other welders I have practiced on were at 95 to 105

AWS D1.1 I believe is the Tech Standard Structural Vert up stick test

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## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Originally Posted by JPS
About 100 amps I have been playing with it up and down a bit but My Dialarc doesn't have a digital read out and the dials seem to be way off, other welders I have practiced on were at 95 to 105

AWS D1.1 I believe is the Tech Standard Structural Vert up stick test
As for tech, I mean technique, sorry I wasn't clear. You doing a zzz motion, rainbow, just pushing the rod up, some other way..

This is 1/8 rod. If so, turn it up more, try 115, see if that helps you any.. As for the top, let your test plate cool before you cap, and when you get to the top, try to get the puddle on top of the plate and go side to side. Don't you have a little tab on the top as well that extends an inch or two past the plate?

22. ## Re: Watching the puddle 7018 up

Sorry my bad. yes I use a Z (probably best figure ) basically hold on the side move slightly up and over quickly then hold at the other side, also tried moving straight up a touch then straight across but that seemed more difficult to keep a tight weave.

Yes the test plate does have the backing bar extend past the plate and I will be able to finish welding out the top. The practice piece I am working with actually has bevels on both sides so I use the back of the other side bevel as my backing bar that's why no extension on my practice piece.

It had been suggested to me to let the plates cool to 250 deg before continuing with the next pass or cap, I did that a few times while practicing but haven't the past few practice runs.

I realize its more for repeatable control, but letting it cool then raising the amps is sort of like running with lower amps and the plate still hot, just thinking out loud.

Again thanks for the Suggestions and help

Joe

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