Canadian RED SEAL or redseal
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  1. #1

    Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    I'm looking at challenging my red seal interprovincal welding ticket test. Any Ideas or books or courses I could take to sorta prime myself for the test. I've been doing it a long time but I'm sure i have either forgotten or just plain not learned some information that may be on the test. I know safety has evolved alot since 1990
    Best Regards

    Jay Holland
    http://www.hamilton-welding.com

  2. #2
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    I did the same thing 4-5 years ago, I got the modules fromAlberta which is what the test is based on. If I rememeber right there was 140 questions. The worst part of the complete process was proving to the apprenticeship board that I had sufficient experience to challenge the test. Luckily I had saved every training course certificat that I had got in 30 years. Paid my $147 and they agreed I had the experience so I could write.
    I rememebr a few of the questions were way out in left field, One that sticks in my mind "you are welding on the deck of an ocean going ship, what process would you use" duhhh, could you be a little more vague please...Mike

  3. #3
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    My apolgies if I am reading your posts wrong.....This thread is really confusing....

    There isn't such a thing as a "Red Seal Interprovincial Welding Ticket Test".....

    I have Journeyman Certificates and Interprovincial Standards (Red Seals) in both Auto Mechanics and Welding..... I qualified to write the Red Seal exams after I completed my Apprenticeships to Journeyman level and passed my Journeyman level Technical Exams......not before.

    Whether your Province considers Welding to be a Compulsory or Elective Trade, you should still have to complete an Apprenticeship in that trade to qualify to write the Red Seal Exam.

    It is a companion to your Journeyman License.... Not a replacement for one.

    I do not understand how you are able to "Challenge" a Red Seal exam WITHOUT a license.... Kind of defeats the purpose of the entire program.

    http://www.red-seal.ca/Site/index_e.shtml
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 05-14-2009 at 11:36 PM.
    Later,
    Jason

  4. #4
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    No, the Interprovincial Standards (Red Seal) Exams are not based on the Alberta Program....

    Quoted from: http://www.red-seal.ca/Site/trades/i...noq/Welder.htm


    Welder
    EXAM COUNSELLING SHEET
    A Red Seal exam is based on the National Occupational Analysis (NOA) for the trade. The analysis describes the skills and knowledge required to perform the duties of the trade. Each NOA consists of blocks (main subject areas), each block is divided into tasks, and each task is divided into sub-tasks.

    Percentage of questions on exam per blocs Titles of blocks Percentage (%) of questions on exam*
    A – Occupational Skills 21
    B – Quality Control 12
    C – Cutting Processes 17
    D – Gouging Processes 10
    E – Welding Processes 40
    Total 100


    For more information about examination preparation materials (textbooks, modules, etc.) contact your provincial/territorial apprenticeship office.

    * Average percentage of the total number of questions on an interprovincial examination, assigned to assess each block of the analysis, as derived from the collective input from workers within the occupation from all areas of Canada. Interprovincial examinations typically have from 100 to 150 multiple-choice questions.
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 05-14-2009 at 11:36 PM.
    Later,
    Jason

  5. #5
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    As the Wolf mentioned you have to be considered a journeyman first in order to write. You will have to check with your Ontario authority. They will likely administer the exam and you will get an outline of the requirements. Here in BC you require at LEAST a B certification in order to qualify to write the test.
    You are wise not to just go in and write cold... often you only get two chances. Also check to see if there is an upgrader course available in night school to coach/prepare you on the theory.
    If you have a CWB supervisors ticket or a basic welding inspection ticket you would likely be capable of writing the exam cold.

  6. #6
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Jason,
    No, the Interprovincial Standards (Red Seal) Exams are not based on the Alberta Program....
    Beg to differ, when I challenged it there was a fella at work going thru the apprenticeship and that's what they were using then, SAIT I think it was called or something similar. I purchased the modules, the ones I didn't get from him, directly from Alberta. My son, who graduates this year from welding, uses Alberta modules, if the the whole enchilada 95% of it anyway.

    Black Wolf:
    Whether your Province considers Welding to be a Compulsory or Elective Trade, you should still have to complete an Apprenticeship in that trade to qualify to write the Red Seal Exam.
    You do, I was able to challenge it first by providing proof that I had been in the trade, was capable of doing the work and had received the training or had sufficient experience to accomplish the work. The apprenticeship board checked out my credintials and allowed me to write.

    It is a companion to your Journeyman License.... Not a replacement for one. I do not understand how you are able to "Challenge" a Red Seal exam WITHOUT a license.... Kind of defeats the purpose of the entire program.
    Not sure what you mean, I would consider aRed Seal the journeman license.

    lotechman
    If you have a CWB supervisors ticket or a basic welding inspection ticket you would likely be capable of writing the exam cold.
    I indeed did have that from being a shop supervisor where I worked previously but do know people that haven't had it and been allowed to challenge.

    On the same subject, there is another younger fella at work who's gone thru the whole apprenticeship, been in the trade for 7+ years, wrote for his seal and got it. I wouldn't let him weld a button on a s**thouse door, can barely run a bead. To me that lowers the quality of a seal. explain to me how he's gone to school, with instructors, and was allowed to write let alone get his ticket when he can't weld.......Mike

  7. #7
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    The Red Seal is an "interprovincial" meaning that your meet a minimum requirement and allows recognition of trades qualifications between provinces. As for whether someone is really qualified to do a job: That is for the employer to determine and usually it only takes a couple of days for an employer to decide that.
    As for the "quality" of a certification the final determination has to be made by the employer. I have worked in one shop that had several very good welders that were hired and before the saloon doors swung the other way they were back out on the street. They were pressure welders that had many years experience on piping but had not any idea what was required of them to do a structural weld.
    I have also heard second hand recently that many Alberta structural shops would hire a BC welder long before they would hire an Alberta trained welder. The skill set required is different between shops and different between training facilities. Any practical test or written test is only a sampling and does not guarantee the success of the welder in a particular job.
    Keep in mind that a CWB supervisor's ticket does not say you are a welder. It only qualifies you to supervise welders in a certified shop. Much of the information you would know is the information that would be asked on a Red Seal test.
    Slowly but surely the learning modules/ teaching materials across Canada are being standardized. Black Wolf has given a good reference point from which to get started.

  8. #8
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Hello Mike,

    We have two major training instutions in Alberta

    NAIT - Northern Alberta Institute of Technology - based in Edmonton

    and

    SAIT - Southern Alberta Institute of Technology - based in Calgary

    I am a little biased as I am FROM Alberta, but yes, the Alberta Program is quite good. Having said that, it still does not change the fact that the Red Seal exams are NOT based on the Alberta Program. I provided the link for you, it is there in Black and White. Believe what you wish, it matters little to me.

    This type of conversation is always difficult with fellows from other Provinces, as only Alberta and BC recognise "Welder" as a Compulsory Trade....and even WE cannot get along. Everywhere else, it is Elective, so we play by different rules.

    If every province had the same Compulsory Trades, and threw out all the "Equivalency" Certificates, this would be MUCH simpler....

    Here is the Alberta Apprenticeship system for Welding:

    http://tradesecrets.gov.ab.ca/index....=ilm/home.html

    From reading your post, it appears that you may have been granted a "Certificate of Qualification" from the Ontario Gov't. No, this is not a Journeyman Certificate.

    I have provided the links for the Interprovincial Standards (Red Seal) as well, so I do not need to discuss it's function any further.... No, this is not a Journeyman Certificate either.

    Sorry if I ruffled your feathers... We are not comparing Apples to Apples here.
    Later,
    Jason

  9. #9
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Quote Originally Posted by lotechman View Post
    I have also heard second hand recently that many Alberta structural shops would hire a BC welder long before they would hire an Alberta trained welder.
    Nice attempt at an insult.....

    I'm not sure if you are trying to pick a fight, or more likely, you are just a gullible fool...But I have lived in Alberta all my life and have never heard such nonsense.

    Let me know if you "hear" (or dream) anything else.

    Honestly, you BC guys just amaze me with your arrogance. LOL

    In any event, Enjoy your Long Weekend.
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 05-17-2009 at 02:47 AM.
    Later,
    Jason

  10. #10
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Hi Jason,
    No you didn't ruffle my feathers in the least, sorry it came off that way, all is good. I like a good argument as well as the next guy :-). No insults intended or taken.
    It is indeed a Red Seal I have. see attached. Hell of a mug shot but they didn't have a lot to deal with I'm afraid.

    As for enjoying a long weekend *&^%% rain so that isn't gonna happen. Be well.....Mike
    Last edited by mrmikey; 05-17-2009 at 12:01 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Morning Mike,

    Yep, raining here too....But it is better than the bits of SNOW we had off an on the last two weeks.

    Yessir, That very definitely IS a Red Seal Endorsement - I didn't doubt your word that you had it. I do not recognise the card that you posted though (read: Never seen one like it before)....It very obviously identifies you as a Welder, and clearly states your Red Seal number (You are MUCH braver than me to post personal info like that on the internet) but I am not seeing an actual "Journeyman Number" like I have on both my certificates. I can see the "Certificate Number" but do not know if it is the "same" thing???

    It would be much easier if all the Provinces/Territories would get on the same page with their trades....If you put in the time, received the training, and can successfully pass Guided Bend Tests (With CWB approved equipment) at a Journeyman Level, then the Gov't of Ontario should issue you a proper "Journeyman Certificate"

    For all intents and purposes, maybe that IS Ontario's version of a Journeyman Certificate, I do not know... It is not clearly defined like my Alberta ones are. I have wall plaques with Official Gov't of Alberta Gold Seal, and IP Red Seal (Number on Red Seal) and a bunch of other stuff on them....Then also have identical (but obviously much smaller) wallet sized certificates that I have to carry on me at all times, and be able to produce upon request.

    If we (Canada) ever got out crap together, then a Journeyman from Victoria BC should be trained and tested equal to a Journeyman from Bay Roberts, Newfoundland. Yes, our specific skill sets where we excel may vary with our different backgrounds and industries, but the training and testing should be the same.

    In any event, if that was presented to me at an interview, I would take it that you have knowledge and experience, and would then have specific expecations as to the skills and abilities that you should bring to my shop.

    They should save those "Certificates of Qualification" for the foreigners on a Work Visa, but that is a whole other topic altogether, and this is neither the place nor the time.....
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 05-17-2009 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Extra info on Certificates
    Later,
    Jason

  12. #12
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    In Ontario you must be able to prove experience by a sworn afidavit or with a letter from a supervisor at the company you've worked for on (get this) Company Letterhead detailing processes used, training, time served as an apprentice through journeyman.
    Most companies will not in this litigious environment, allow a supervisor to even write a letter of reccomendation never mind an endorsement of an employees abilities.
    You can obtain the requirements for an Interprovincial Ticket (Red Seal Endorsement) through the
    Ministry of Universities, Colleges and Trades numbers in the blue pages of your phone-book, it cost $100 CAD to Challenge the test which is a 4 hour written test as far as I have been able to gleen there is a preparatory course one may take through community college.
    Is it based on Alberta's? I dont know but with it you are supposed to be eligible to work in any Province including Quebec.

  13. #13
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Quote Originally Posted by ol' Stick Guy View Post
    In Ontario you must be able to prove experience by a sworn afidavit or with a letter from a supervisor at the company you've worked for on (get this) Company Letterhead detailing processes used, training, time served as an apprentice through journeyman.
    Most companies will not in this litigious environment, allow a supervisor to even write a letter of reccomendation never mind an endorsement of an employees abilities.
    You can obtain the requirements for an Interprovincial Ticket (Red Seal Endorsement) through the
    Ministry of Universities, Colleges and Trades numbers in the blue pages of your phone-book, it cost $100 CAD to Challenge the test which is a 4 hour written test as far as I have been able to gleen there is a preparatory course one may take through community college.
    Is it based on Alberta's? I dont know but with it you are supposed to be eligible to work in any Province including Quebec.
    sounds a little much, i think a signature with all the details of what you have experience in would be enough, and id they got any doubt they can call the supervisor to verify

    am i wrong? realistically

  14. #14
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Legal documents are a requirement now. I heard through the grapevine that in Alberta they have one person from the provincial department of trades and an RCMP officer full time just researching fraudulent documents. That is why they are so picky about paperwork. This problem covers all trades.

  15. #15
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    In British Columbia you have to have a level "B" certification number, before you can passe the red seal certification test.
    Which ever way you get the British Columbia level "B" certification number it's up to you.

  16. #16
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Do the AWS welding certs hold and water up there in Canada? I'm looking at getting the heck out of Oregon and looking for greener grass. If that greener grass is on the other side of the boarder how hard would it be to get a job in a fab shop in BC or Alberta? I will have an associates degree in fabrication and welding technologies and two AWS welding certs. Along with 2+ years of experience in a structural shop.

  17. #17
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    For AWS and CWB there is a reciprocity agreement. From what I understand they will only ask you to write certain sections of the Canadian code if you are inspecting. Welding certs expire in two years or less if you do not use on a regular basis.

  18. #18
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    Re: Canadian RED SEAL or redseal

    Why didn't you write the test back in 1990?The reason for allowing a challenge for red seal interprovincial is probably because he never wrote the test when he was writing his provincial journeyman certificate and/or possibly grandfathered way back into his provincial certification and that tests are gleamed from a culmination of all provinces which is why you have some silly questions such as this offshore question posted above.Also you have to have at least 6400 hours if I am correct, which is why he has to prove eligibilty or job qualification by providing proof of employment of copies of payroll cheques.
    Best way of ensuring a pass would be to go to any school accredited and get a copy of the curriculum notes and book list and study from that, or from a friend that has recently passed, in Alberta it would be Nait or Sait.I would speak to one of the instructors, they stop short of telling you exactly what you need to know.

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