how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase
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  1. #1
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    Question how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Hi new to the forum.being i am not that great with electric,i wanted to get some feedback if this would be possible,i am a bodyman and repair cars that have been wrecked,i used a 3 phase welder at work to put on quarter panel, door skins, frame rails etc,well i came across a great deal on a used 3 phase resistance welder but i want to use this at home in my shop on 1 phase power,i want to use this to put sheetmetal,floors etc on my musclecars that i restore,the welder is a electron watercooled unit,i will have to get the specs off the machine,is it possible to convert the power and also make it perform as it should useing a some type of converter,i am concerned that the weld should be a strong as possible.also it is a mobile unit on wheels so then again is there some thing that could mount to the unit so it can move with it,any input would help,i hate to sell this welder to buy a 220v pro spot unit. if this could work what do you think it would cost?

  2. #2
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    You could buy a 220 volt motor-gen set to convert single phase to 2 phase or pass the deal by.

  3. #3
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Go to http://www.use-enco.com and type in 'phase converter' in the search box.
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  4. #4
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    An industrial 3-phase welder is almost certainly overkill for automotive sheetmetal work.

    A little 120V MIG machine has enough power to weld automotive sheetmetal, although the machine's duty cycle is often kind of small you aren't going to run a continuous 24" bead on some sheetmetal anyway. Not unless you want to spend gobs of time correcting all the warping and distortion such a long bead caused in the sheetmetal.

    A 'small' 240V single-phase MIG machine has more than enough power to weld sheetmetal and some frame-rails.

    A 250-class 240V single-phase MIG machine has more than enough power to weld almost anything on a car. Besides maybe the cast iron engine block itself, and might even be able to do that as well with some high-nickle wire $$$$.

    By "used 3-phase resistance welder" do mean a spot-welder? With water-cooled tongs and running off of 3-phase power?

    And before getting too interested in that 3-phase machine, check to see if you could even supply enough raw POWER to the machine to even run it. For a home garage, about the biggest breaker/subpanel you can typically find would be 240V and 100 amps single-phase (unless you somehow have a 3-phase house, but if you did you wouldn't even be asking your question now, would you? ) Ignoring the 3-phase requirement for now, would that 'big' machine even run on 240V 100amp power? Or is it a bigger machine needing 460V 3-phase power?
    The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...

  5. #5
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    Question Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Hi thanks for trying to help out,here is some info on the welder from the owners manaul.
    electron Multispot M80 made in germany.
    power supply unit
    supply voltage 208-230v
    supply fuse 60 A
    mains freguency 50/60 Hz
    power supply cord 14 KVA
    max.welding capacity 43 KVA
    open circuit voltage 12V
    welding current 6400A 3%duty cycle
    welding time 0.03-0.9 s automatic adjustment
    pulse welding time 0.1-1.5 s automatic adjustment
    Ambient temperture 40*C/104 F
    Type of protection IP21
    Dimensions of power supply 375/265/535 14,7"/10.4"/21"
    weight power
    supply unit 54.5KG 120.15lb
    dimensions of power supply
    unit in trolley H/W/D mm 1020/517/600 40.15"/20.3"/23.6"
    total weight inc. accessoroies approx. 97.1 kg 214lb

    spot welding tongs (pneumatic)
    weight (without cable) 3.5 kg 7.7lb
    weight (with cable) 11.5kg 25.35lb
    operating pressure 8 bar 116 psi (24 cfm)
    Electrode arms 20x20 mm
    Electon contact pressure 1800 N 396.8 lb
    Welding cable length 2.5 m 8'3"

    Push spot welder
    welding cable length 2.2 m 7'2"
    earth cable length 1.5 m 4'11"
    weight 6.15 kg 13.5lb
    Electrodes 10mm 13.5lb


    hopes this helps,like i said i dont know much about electric,fixing cars yes.
    this is one of the approved welders by the auto makers. there is others the pro spot is the most common and they make a 220 model called the pr 10. we use a I4 model at the the dealer i work for. if i can covert this to use, what style converter box do i need to use and can i mount it to the welder unit?? i thought of contacting the welder maker to ask but trying to keep it simple,also this welder when i worked at the ford dealer paid $13k for this unit i paid not much for it because they were bought out and the chevy dealer use pro spot.

  6. #6
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    So, this is not TIG or MIG - this is spot welder.
    Two power supplys apparently...
    Slightly weird... Complicated...

    power supply unit
    supply voltage 208-230v
    supply fuse 60 A
    mains freguency 50/60 Hz

    and then

    Dimensions of power supply 375/265/535 14,7"/10.4"/21"

    I think you'll be better off talking to Manufacturer...

  7. #7
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Hi yes it is a spot welder,it welds or fuses the panels together makeing the correct appearing weld,very nice and time saving,if anyone ever pulled back the weatherstrip on their door jam you can see how the panels are welder together,this machine does this.i bought it because i am very picky about my old cars that i restore, and the classic car guy knows this quality when he is looking to buy them when i am done,i always had to take mine to the shop to weld, which is a pain loading the car and time wasted. if any body know about these i hope to use it or will call the maker,if not i guess i can sell it to a bodyshop ang buy a single phase unit.

  8. #8
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Read the thread call converters that is below this thread. You'll get an idea what it will take to do the job.
    Tough as nails and damn near as smart

  9. #9
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Bodyman37,

    Dimensions of power supply 375/265/535 14,7"/10.4"/21"

    The above are probably physical dimensions in millimeters, not electrical specs.

    power supply unit
    supply voltage 208-230v
    supply fuse 60 A
    mains freguency 50/60 Hz
    power supply cord 14 KVA
    max.welding capacity 43 KVA


    Crunching the above specs, 14.4 kva seem to add up to it being a single phase welder:
    230v x 60a = 13,800watts -or- 13.8kva (single phase)
    Not:
    230v x 60a = 13,800
    13,800 x 1.73 = 23,874 -or- 23.8kva (three phase)

    Although that's: "cord kva"
    It seems that if it were three phase, it would be 24kva.

    I'm thinking that the welder is single phase, and labeled with 208/230 as a concession for the US single phase market.
    Why do you think it's three phase?

    Is there a phase symbol (Ř) on the data plate?

    Good Luck
    Last edited by denrep; 01-08-2010 at 12:27 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Denrep scored again.

    Yes, looks like those are dimensions in inches and millimiters.
    Then other specs would make it looking like single phase...

  11. #11
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    With the maximum welding capacity being 43 kva, the per phase power would be 43/3 = 14.33 kva. That matches with the power cord power. We may be running into semantics.

    Now back to working on my time machine.

  12. #12
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    It could be 43kVA on welding side.
    Open voltage 12V with current 6400A will make it 75.8kVA. Obviously there is voltage drop, which will make it 43kVA.
    And there is probably some energy accumulating device - capacitor or coil - that is why there is duty cycle 3%...

  13. #13
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Hi i have been trying to find a dealer or the company,i did locate the company page,www.elektron-bremen.com .it says this welder can be order 2 ways single phase and 3 phase,now if mine is 3 phase what would it need to change ot out?,i am going to keep trying.here is the info if you look at the web page.mine is the m80 model.

    Technical Data
    Power supply unit: M 80 - 400 V (380-415V)
    Slow fuse: 32 A
    Mains frequency: 50/60 Hz
    Power supply cord: 14,7 kVA
    Max. welding capacity: 45 kVA
    Open circuit voltage: 12 V
    Welding current 6800 A (RMS): 3 % duty cycle
    Peak current Î (pliers 2 m): 10700 A 3 % duty cycle
    Ambient temperature: 40° C
    Type of protection: IP 21
    Power supply unit in trolley Dimensions H/W/D mm: 1020 / 517 / 600
    Total weight incl. accessories: approx. 97 kg
    Welding cable Ř / length: 120 mm˛ / 2,2 m
    Earth cable Ř / length: 120 mm˛ / 1,5 m
    Weight: 6,15 kg
    Weight (without cable): 3,5 kg
    Weight (with cable): 11, 5 kg
    Operating pressure: 8 bar
    Electrode clamping force: 1800 N
    Welding cable Ř / length: 120 mm˛ / 2,5 m
    Power supply unit 230 V: upon request

    Technical specifications are subject to change without notice.

  14. #14
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    I too had thought about the high 43kva output, but with weld time of only around one second, I figured maybe that was a capacitor discharge figure.


    60 amps of 240v three phase would be a lot of spot-welding power.

    The old defibrillator, -or whatever those two-fisted auto-body spot welders were- connected single phase at maybe 30 amps, and they'd let go with a zap that would sink a very deep heavy spot together. Wouldn't seem like new technology would draw three to five times as much current.

    Bodyman37 - Let us have a look at the input connections.

    With a name like M-80, this thing is gonna have to let loose with some sort of bang!

    Good Luck
    Last edited by denrep; 01-08-2010 at 08:55 PM.

  15. #15
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    I've downloaded Operating Manuals in different languages. Russian version specificly said that 400V is 3ph. Although it does not say 230V 1ph.

    Bottom line - Operating Manual and their other documents - SUCKS!

    See paragraph 3.3 in English and Russian

    3.3 Mains power supply connection
    400 V 50/60 Hz (automatic switch-over)
    Connection to a 32 A Cekon socket
    Fuse: 32/35 A slow fuse
    or
    32 A automatic circuit-breaker
    230 V (190-240 V) 50/60 Hz (automatic switch-over)
    Connection to a 63 A Cekon socket
    Fuse: 63 A slow fuse
    or
    63 A automatic circuit-breaker



    3.3 Подключeниe к элeктричeской сети
    Трёхфазная (3ph) сeть 400 В (380 – 415 В) 50/60 Гц (пeрeключeниe
    автоматичeскоe)
    Подключeниe производится с помощью розетки типа СЕЕ 32.
    Защита: обeспeчиваeтся инерционным плавким прeдохранитeлeм с
    задержкой срабатывания на 32/35 А или
    автоматическим выключателем тока на 32 А.


    Then I've got this picture with power configurations.

    So, take a look at your power cord. What kind of plug do you have there?
    Second I would definetely call Bremen, Germany and told them that for that kind of money Operating Manual and tech specs could be MUCH clearer.

    ELEKTRON-BREMEN Elektrotechnik GmbH · Am Hohentorshafen 17-19 · 28197 Bremen
    Tel + 49 421 54906-906 · Fax +49 421 54906-19 · vertrieb@elektron-bremen.de · www.elektron-bremen.de

    And final - I think - 230V power supply - 1ph. 400V - 3ph.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  16. #16
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomand View Post
    . . .Second I would definetely call Bremen, Germany and tell them that for that kind of money Operating Manual and tech specs could be MUCH clearer.

    ELEKTRON-BREMEN Elektrotechnik GmbH · Am Hohentorshafen 17-19 · 28197 Bremen
    Tel + 49 421 54906-906 · Fax +49 421 54906-19 . . .
    I can hardly wait to hear how that call goes:

    ...Hello?

    Hallo, Elektron-bremen.de welder - Guten Morgen!

    Huh?

    Elektron-bremen.de welder - Guten Morgen!

    Yah, do you build the M-80?


    No spreken ze deutch?

    No freaken WHO?

    Hello?

    Hallo!

    Never mind!




    Good job on finding the manual Nomand.
    Last edited by denrep; 01-09-2010 at 09:21 AM.

  17. #17
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    Wink Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    I was surprised yesterday i got a call from the electron dealer for the eastern states, he said that it is a 3 phase welder 63 a but for a split second draws 300a HUH? he also said that the only diffrence between the two is the transformer, he said when ready i can call him and change it out if they have one,boy that sounds expensive.i asked about a converter and he told me that he has heard of guys doing it but did not know the specifics.waiting for the germans to call me.

  18. #18
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Go ahead, call me a skeptic, but I don't believe it.
    And I'll bet a dollar that the dealership where the welder was previously used didn't have 208 or 230 three phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomand View Post
    . . .So, take a look at your power cord. What kind of plug do you have there?. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by denrep View Post
    . . .Bodyman37 - Let us have a look at the input connections. . . .
    What did the supply connections look like?

    Good Luck
    Last edited by denrep; 01-10-2010 at 11:19 PM.

  19. #19
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Sounds weird what you were told...

    On the picture above - there are power configurations. It specifically says that 63A for 230V. And I loosely called it 1ph - it is actually for 2-wire system. And for split seconds there may be 1000A as long as breaker's characteric allows it...

    Did you ask that person about power configurations?

    You see this is just the problem with this German Operating Manual - it is misleading. That is why dealers may be making mistakes. Talk to them with the Manual referring to paragraph 3.3. And the Manual does not specify total power consumption, which is wrong.

    And again different power configurations have different power cords. Just how many wires in the power cord if plug is not available?
    Last edited by Nomand; 01-10-2010 at 11:24 PM.

  20. #20
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    i hope these pics came up,i did it quick,if it does i will add more.Name:  DSCF0098.jpg
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  21. #21
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

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  22. #22
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    The way I see it - this is 3 prong plug with grounded body and no neutral- for 230V/63A - standard 2-wire system. Exactly like in my house. And exactly as per power configuration shown in the Manual.

    Furthermore - there is no danger of damaging the machine if you plug into 240V. The worst case scenario - if voltage is low - the light will come on - as per Manual.

    The only thing - needs receptacle ot transition piece - not sure if I have seen this kind in HomeDepot...

    PS - you do realize - this thing requires insane compressor...
    Last edited by Nomand; 01-11-2010 at 10:47 PM.

  23. #23
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    That connector is a three-pole with ground, it could be used with three phase.
    With a part number or a good straight-on look it could be ID'd in the Hubbell catalog.
    But there's no guarantee it's been wired to spec.

    Next step is to remove the machine's input terminal cover and see what's in there.
    Maybe see if the cord is connected to two line terminals or three.

    Looks like a nice piece of equipment.
    The air just clamps the tongs, right?

    I'm still betting it'll go single phase.

    Good Luck
    Last edited by denrep; 01-12-2010 at 12:51 AM.

  24. #24
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Buy rotophase or build one. You need a third more horse power motor to run your 3 phase motor. In other words a 3 horse power home built phase converter will run 2 horse power 3 phase.
    Tankeedog.

  25. #25
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    Re: how to run 3 phase welder off 1 phase

    Quote Originally Posted by tankeedog View Post
    Buy rotophase or build one. You need a third more horse power motor to run your 3 phase motor. In other words a 3 horse power home built phase converter will run 2 horse power 3 phase.
    Tankeedog.
    But Tankeedog... If we're relying on the stated specs and the welder draws 60 amps three-phase, that's roughly equivalent to a 20hp motor. So then a converter motor aproximately 30% larger would be in the class of 25hp or 30hp. Such a large single phase motor would not be so common.

    Well Bodyman, what'd we see behind the cover??

    Good Luck

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