up hill or down hill
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  1. #1
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    up hill or down hill

    Ok here is one for you guys its my own little riddle just wanna see the awnsers i get then talk about it later hewre goes ...... if you have a up hill bead and a down hill bead using any kind of prosess and they are both 100% weld which one is better
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  2. #2
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Uphill stack quicker, takes longer and is more apt to trap slag. Downhill is quicker, looks better and is less likely to trap slag. Proper technique and correct machine settings eliminate the problems. I prefer down because of the speed and simplicity. When I learned pipe, it was ALL uphill, root, too. Just when I mastered the process they changed to downhill....
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  3. #3
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    It all depends on the thickness and how hot you're running. There is no quick and easy answer. The rule for MIG, when I was building locomotives, was 3/16 and less was dealers choice and anything thicker was uphill. Never had much luck with downhill TIG aluminum.
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  4. #4
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Most WPS that I am familiar with for piping systems are uphill. Personally, I think you can get good performance either way.

  5. #5
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    I agree with all the above, especially Argon Welding. Most my truck work is on tube (.120 wall or the frames themselves- from .100 to .180) And in most cases on that, I will go all 4 directions, up, down, across, and inverted as I need to. On the thicker stuff, I will almost always wind up going uphill, and usually wind up doing more than one pass. On alum. tube and ss boat railings, the thickness will vary from .065 to .140. I will run again, in all 4 possible directions. I tend to go downhill on that tubing; it's cleaner visually.
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  6. #6
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Hey gizzardgutz, hate to tell you, but if you've been running any flux core downhill, you may want to get the grinder out. If you were to take a x-ray of a vertical down flux-core weld, you will definitely find slag in there. A.W.S. weld procedure only allow flux to be run in the flat, horizontal and vertical up. Vertical down does look nice, but it is the least penetrating weld, as vertical up is a little "humpier" but gives you the most penetration. I used to build pressure vessels for use in ethanol production, and all were allowed to weld was vertical up duel-shielded flux core, never failed an x-ray. Do not listen to gizzardgutz, downhill flux is unacceptable!!!! By the way, I am certified by the state of WI for ASME pressure vessels in stainless, mild steel and stainless to mild flux-cored and also state certified for structural steel. So long story short, vertical up is the best weld as far as strength and penetration. The only benefit for vertical down is a smoother weld bead.
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  7. #7

    Re: up hill or down hill

    you said it's a riddle, so if both welds are 100% they should both be the same, no difference

  8. #8
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    I am a stick welder, never used flux core in my life, therefore I wouldn't have known that. Don't plan on using either.
    Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.
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  9. #9
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    ok read the original post a little slower and think about it before you awnser
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  10. #10
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    I'm TSSA certified to weld pressure pipe with stick and tig. I just renewed both my tickets on Tuesday, 6g tests.
    Downhill is faster, has less penetration and has a greater potential to trap slag with stick.
    Uphill has more penetration, less of a chance to trap slag with stick and is a bit slower.
    A quality welder can make either downhill or uphill work for what he's doing.
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  11. #11
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    ok its just killing me if both welds have 100% pennatration they are both the same all that technical stuff dont even come in to play 100% is 100% just like a test in school weather you take the test from start to finish or viseaversa and you score 100% you score 100% ponder it a little it will come to you
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  12. #12
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Quote Originally Posted by deucedj22 View Post
    Hey gizzardgutz, hate to tell you, but if you've been running any flux core downhill, you may want to get the grinder out. If you were to take a x-ray of a vertical down flux-core weld, you will definitely find slag in there. A.W.S. weld procedure only allow flux to be run in the flat, horizontal and vertical up. Vertical down does look nice, but it is the least penetrating weld, as vertical up is a little "humpier" but gives you the most penetration. I used to build pressure vessels for use in ethanol production, and all were allowed to weld was vertical up duel-shielded flux core, never failed an x-ray. Do not listen to gizzardgutz, downhill flux is unacceptable!!!! By the way, I am certified by the state of WI for ASME pressure vessels in stainless, mild steel and stainless to mild flux-cored and also state certified for structural steel. So long story short, vertical up is the best weld as far as strength and penetration. The only benefit for vertical down is a smoother weld bead.
    The REX East Project , (42" X80 or more Pipe) with API 1104 procedures, had a 5/32" 5P+, downhill bead, Low Hydrogen 9018, up hill hot pass, with fill(s) and cap, Flux-Core 5/64" Hobart Wire, down hill.

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  13. #13
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Quote Originally Posted by ArgonWelding View Post
    It all depends on the thickness and how hot you're running. There is no quick and easy answer. The rule for MIG, when I was building locomotives, was 3/16 and less was dealers choice and anything thicker was uphill. Never had much luck with downhill TIG aluminum.
    It all depends like mentioned above.

    The question needs more detail; otherwise, it is just plain unanswerable
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  14. #14
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    The world is larger than AWS structural welding and ASME pressure vessel welding. There is a whole bunch of downhill FCAW welding done in the transmission pipeline industry. Good operators have no trouble passing 100% X-ray and/or UT inspection with gas or self shielded fluxcore filler metal products. I've seen them welded semi-automatic and fully mechanized without a hitch. As Rhyno mentioned the REX project, Cheyenne plains project, both included FCAW welding. REX I know for certain used some downhill FCAW in some spreads. There's 1000's of miles of pipeline in Asia, Europe, and Russia welded using downhill techniques and FCAW products. It's not popular here in the Americas, but it's being used on a trial basis.

    All it takes is the right product, procedure, and a skilled weldor...

    In so far as benefits are concerned. Travel speeds are higher welding downhill. Heat input can be lower, which can be critical when welding higher strength steels.

    Before I forget about the OP. I don't see any difference between uphill and downhill welding when both are done correctly. There's a time and a place for each. A skilled golfer can use any club in their bag, a skilled professional welder should be comfortable with all the commonly available welding processes and techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by deucedj22 View Post
    Hey gizzardgutz, hate to tell you, but if you've been running any flux core downhill, you may want to get the grinder out. If you were to take a x-ray of a vertical down flux-core weld, you will definitely find slag in there. A.W.S. weld procedure only allow flux to be run in the flat, horizontal and vertical up. Vertical down does look nice, but it is the least penetrating weld, as vertical up is a little "humpier" but gives you the most penetration. I used to build pressure vessels for use in ethanol production, and all were allowed to weld was vertical up duel-shielded flux core, never failed an x-ray. Do not listen to gizzardgutz, downhill flux is unacceptable!!!! By the way, I am certified by the state of WI for ASME pressure vessels in stainless, mild steel and stainless to mild flux-cored and also state certified for structural steel. So long story short, vertical up is the best weld as far as strength and penetration. The only benefit for vertical down is a smoother weld bead.
    Last edited by A_DAB_will_do; 01-18-2010 at 10:09 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    AWS test procedure for D1.3 fluxcore, postion 3, is DOWN. For D1.1 fluxcore and stick and D1.8 fluxcore, position 3, it's UP.

    Most processes can be run up or down, depending on thickness and the particular filler/electrode being used. In most circumstances, provided the electrode/filler type allows for it, for thicker metal, UP gives best penetration, while DOWN is acceptable on thinner metal. This is especially true for tig and mig, while more restrictions come into play with stick and fluxcore, due to the flux characteristics of the particular electrode in question.
    Last edited by DesertRider33; 01-18-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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  16. #16
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Which ever one i welded

  17. #17
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Quote Originally Posted by heimbuckwelding View Post
    Ok here is one for you guys its my own little riddle just wanna see the awnsers i get then talk about it later hewre goes ...... if you have a up hill bead and a down hill bead using any kind of prosess and they are both 100% weld which one is better
    assuming you mean 100% penetration. Then really at that point which ever one gives you a greater deposition rate, or travel rate. Or which ever one is less likely to give you defects.

    Those are all process dependent questions. I'm sure electroslag welding works a lot better uphill.

    Sheet metal TIG is 100% downhill and probably the fastest travel rate of any manual process.

  18. #18
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Dealing in hypothetical situations, IF you could get 100% penetration welding 5/16 aluminum doing TIG downhill, then yes, it would be the same as uphill. It would also be in fantasy world because is sure isn't happening on earth.
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  19. #19
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    wow you guys are reading way to much in to it if you have 100% penatration up hill or 100% penatration down hill they are equal doesnt matter what the process material consumable or any of the other bizzar factors you all are putting in to it 100% penatration is 100% penatration DUH! wow what a bunch of professional welders we have here.
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  20. #20
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    oh and by the way you can get 100% penatration up hill or down hill you just have to know what your doing any monkey can run a bead it takes talent to be a welder
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  21. #21
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Quote Originally Posted by heimbuckwelding View Post
    any monkey can run a bead it takes talent to be a welder
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  22. #22
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Quote Originally Posted by heimbuckwelding View Post
    Ok here is one for you guys its my own little riddle ... if you have a up hill bead and a down hill bead using any kind of prosess and they are both 100% weld which one is better
    If you drop 10 pounds of feathers and 10 pounds of bricks from the same height, at exactly the same time, which will hit the ground first?
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  23. #23
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    I'd trust an uphill any day of the week over a downhill weld if its anything of any kind of importance. I think any welder wih any sense or experience would agree with that. Sure you can get full penetration with up or down, but your fusion is much greater with uphill.

  24. #24
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    Heat does rise. Why fight it when you can use it to your advantage.

  25. #25
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    Re: up hill or down hill

    if i remember right the rate of speed at whitch items fall is exactly the same no matter how much they weigh
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