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  1. #26
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    Dec 2008
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    Oklahoma
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    584

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Felonyass Monk,
    Just to elaborate on Allans answer in post #3. For things that are noncritical where a failure will result in nothing more than an "Aww crap, it broke again" or digging a part out of the dirt, the trick for drying electrodes works.

    However for code work that falls under AWS D1.1

    AWS D1.1 Clause 5. Fabrication

    5.3.2.1 Low-Hydrogen Electrode Storage Conditions.
    All electrodes having low-hydrogen coverings conforming to AWS A5.1 and AWS A5.5 shall be purchased in hermetically sealed containers or shall be baked by the user in conformance with 5.3.2.4 prior to use. Immediately after opening the hermetically sealed container, electrodes shall be stored in ovens held at a temperature of at least 250 F (120 C). Electrodes shall be re-baked no more than once. Electrodes that have been wet shall not be used.

    From table 5.1 Allowable Atmospheric Exposure of Low-Hydrogen Electrodes.

    E70XX & E70XX-X 4 hours max.
    E80XX 2 hours max.

    Note 3 for table 5.1 states "Electrodes shall be issued and held in quivers, or other small open containers."

    Best regards,
    jrw159

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    14

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Quote Originally Posted by denrep View Post
    Jsfab is right, and it takes a serious bake-out to restore the LH properties to exposed electrode.

    But a sealed "dry" container would certainly be worth exploring.
    After all, that's the only moisture protection that a new unopened electrode container provides.



    Ibanezed4yrs - Not exactly.
    Lets say you're not running volume production, but buying 50# quantities, or storing smaller amounts of mixed electrodes.
    For long-term storage, you'd have absolute perfect protection, without electricity.

    On a critical job, you would pull an estimated quantity from storage, and use a typical hot-box while working.
    That was my motive; true long-term protection for the seldom used electrodes, the large ones and the 110's, so that they're actually LH when you really need it.

    Good Luck
    First off, if this was a critical job you wouldnt have wet rods. Also, yes, a fridge would be enough...or you could just pick up almost any welding rod you see on the ground and use it, and yes i've seen it done...probaly cause im not union. Hahaha...union workers.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    41

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    here's the Lincoln site, they have specifics for different situations, different rods:

    http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...nt/storing.asp


    One point that hasn't been made is that it is not just water that is in the rod, it is the chemistry that has been modified with the addition of -OH groups to the flux coating. "Drying" might not always be the best term, as you sometimes are chemically reforming the molecules in the flux to drive off those OH groups. As Lincoln says: longer time at a lower temperature is not a replacement for the correct temperature.

    So, I think that means that heating the rod with the arc might drive off the moisture but might not be the right temperature to reform the molecules.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    SW Washington State
    Posts
    1,202

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Hello bobcatter, you have hit the nail on the head with the latter part of your post regarding reforming the oxides that come from exposure to moisture. Heating at lower temperatures will drive out active moisture, but isn't sufficient to change the oxides that have already formed from exposure to moisture, in order to do that it requires a Hi-temp bake-out at a specific temperature and for a specific time. D1.1 goes a bit further and specifies only one bake-out before you should discard the rod and that it cannot be used for code welding according to their specifications. There are likely other codes that take a slightly different view on this situation and those who work to those codes would have to investigate their stance on this subject. Earlier in my career I performed plenty of welding that didn't take these precautions into account, I can't say positively whether there were detrimental effects for absolute sure, but that doesn't make it right or correct. With current information and supporting documentation, those who don't adhere to the standards will open themselves up for liability and responsibility. Everyone needs to make their own decision with regard to this sort of information, for anyone who does code work they will likely already be aware or need to consider this topic seriously as they perform work with Lo-hydrogen electrodes or any other moisture sensitive consumables. A bit more for folks to consider. Best regards, Allan
    aevald

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Missouri
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    606

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Go to Wal-Mart get yourself a vacuum packager ($50.00 or so) open your sealed container and repackage in 1 pound vacuum sealed packs or r how ever many you need at one time. You can always open another pack if you need more. This also helps if you are charging customers for consumables as you know exactly what was used at the end of the day.
    "Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    5,797

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Quote Originally Posted by flatbustedbroke View Post
    Go to Wal-Mart get yourself a vacuum packager ($50.00 or so) open your sealed container and repackage in 1 pound vacuum sealed packs or how ever many you need at one time. . . .
    Okay Flatbustedbroke - It took a while, but I finally scored a garage sale vacuum sealer.
    The sale included several rolls of heavy plastic tube. The supplies are probably worth more than the machine.

    Here's how it went:

    First I played around with the sealer to get a feel for how it works.
    Attachment 49356
    Basically it sucks the air out of a bag and then a hot strip seals the bag closed.
    It works well.

    After graduating from basic training I cracked open a fresh can of 7018.
    Attachment 49358
    I filled bags each with one storage-tube quantity of rod.
    That way when a bag is opened the contents will fit in a tube.

    A narrower bag might work better, but regardless the sealer definitely pulls a good vacuum and seals tightly. It should be obvious if a seal becomes broken.

    The vacuumed bags probably couldn't handle too much rough handling in the rat's nest...
    Attachment 49357
    So I put them in a cheapie metal tote box for storage.

    Will it work? It should, unless the bags get punctured.
    Bagging electrode would sure straighten up the rat's nest.
    But the first batch seemed like a lot of tedious messing around.
    We'll see how it goes.

    Thanks for the idea, Flatbustedbroke
    Last edited by denrep; 10-20-2010 at 12:44 AM.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    1000 miles from nowhere........
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    450

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Quote Originally Posted by denrep View Post
    Okay Flatbustedbroke - It took a while, but I finally scored a garage sale vacuum sealer.
    The sale included several rolls of heavy plastic tube. The supplies are probably worth more than the machine.

    Here's how it went:..............................

    So I put them in a cheapie metal tote box for storage.

    Will it work? It should, unless the bags get punctured.
    Bagging electrode would sure straighten up the rat's nest.
    But the first batch seemed like a lot of tedious messing around.
    We'll see how it goes.

    Thanks for the idea, Flatbustedbroke

    The cheapie tote box is a good idea. I'll try to remember that one.

    Depending on how dry your XX18 rods were, will depict if the bag will look the same in a few days. If the rods were moist, the water under vacuum, will boil off and will show by the bag being "a little looser," than when packaged.

    Even though the water is "boiling," it does it at a much lower temperature. I don't have the exact numbers, but water will boil at room temp and lower, while under vacuum.

    -Rhyno
    07 Fowler 200D
    65 RedFace
    04 Miller TB 302, 22hp
    Miller 12RC
    Miller HF 251-1
    Lincoln SP135
    HyperTherm PM 380
    and a few others...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyno View Post
    But, if I "all of a sudden disappear.... ...." hopefully I didn't suffer too much....

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    1000 miles from nowhere........
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    450

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    After looking at your pics, again, I now see that it was a sealed can...........
    07 Fowler 200D
    65 RedFace
    04 Miller TB 302, 22hp
    Miller 12RC
    Miller HF 251-1
    Lincoln SP135
    HyperTherm PM 380
    and a few others...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyno View Post
    But, if I "all of a sudden disappear.... ...." hopefully I didn't suffer too much....

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Central California
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    3,769

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Depending on how dry your XX18 rods were, will depict if the bag will look the same in a few days. If the rods were moist, the water under vacuum, will boil off and will show by the bag being "a little looser," than when packaged.

    Even though the water is "boiling," it does it at a much lower temperature. I don't have the exact numbers, but water will boil at room temp and lower, while under vacuum.

    -Rhyno
    The vacuum the sealing unit produces isn't enough to pull any water from the coating, IMHO. A good vacuum used for refrigeration work would do the job, and such pumps are available cheaply at times. A sturdy container such as a section of large diameter pipe with a flat-turned end, a flat cap with a silicone rubber seal, and an on/off valve to hook to the vacuum source, works fine, and can even be heated to reasonable temperatures to aid the drying of 'old, already open' rod.

  10. #35
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    2,113

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Quote Originally Posted by Felonyass Monk View Post
    Good day eh,
    I had an old fella drop by tonight to pick up a stick welder i had for sale.He says do you have some 7018 rods laying around id like to run a few beads.I says yea sure but they been sittin awhile so dont expect to much.He says Son(i am not a young man but this guy was around when coal was still trees)let me show ya a little trick i learned a while back.He takes the whip ,turns down the amperage to about 75 amps and grounds the rod for a few seconds
    and presto a little steam and he says that oughta do it and gives the rod a snap, ups his amps and welds some pretty beads.So anyone one else use this drying method or is it rod ovens or bust?
    Felon
    Funny, I just said to do this in another post
    200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    92

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    lots of great info... thanks
    52, 59 & 66 Lincoln SA200, Tombstone Idealarc 250, Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 50, Marquette 250 amp mig, Miller 330 A/BP

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Toledo, OH
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    107

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    As long as they aren't code welds...
    CWI, CWE, CST for Miller, Lincoln, Thermadyne, Hypertherm & ESAB
    Millermatic 350P
    Lincoln Invertec 205 AC/DC
    Victor combo torch
    ESAB PCM 1125

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    5,797

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    We're gaining on it.

    I threw Alfred's cigars out of the oven and cranked up the heat to cook a batch:
    Attachment 49411
    But if you have any small red tool boxes lying around, tomorrow, they'd better be full and nailed down
    Last edited by denrep; 10-20-2010 at 12:44 AM.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    The armpit of NJ
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    932

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Storage comes up periodically, so here's the summary:

    Cellulitic fluxes: keep from getting wet. No heat. Heating cooks the flux and ruins the rods. Adding moisture later won't help, any more that soaking toast in water gives you fresh bread.

    Lo-Hy: a fridge with a lightbulb generally won't maintain the rods any better than nothing over the long term, but over a short term (a few days to a few weeks) will help. Not suitable for work to AWS, ASME, or any other code I am aware of, but fine for most general purpose work. In fact, for most general purpose work on material less then 1/2 inch using low carbon steel, you really don't need to worry about hydrogen at all unless the temperature is below about 50 degrees F.

    The flux is hygroscopic (it absorbs moisture from the air directly as part of a chemical reaction) with relative humidity greater than a few percent, unless the temperature is above about 200 to 250F. Easy way: store at 250F. Less easy: maintain temp at the appropriate temp above ambient to keep the RH low enough the rods stay dry (see ASME SFA5.1 for details. General spec is minimum of 50F above ambient) Vacuum storage or inert atmosphere storage will do the job as well, for most uses, (if the rods are not permitted to pick up moisture between the bakeout/factory can and the vacuum pack) but on a code job will need to be proven with lab tests. Easier to use an oven.

    Once the rods have been exposed to moist air, they WILL NOT dry at any temp below the bakeout temp (500 to 700F for most brands, for an hour or so. It depends on the exact flux composition, so see the papers for the particular brand and stock number). The flux hydrates like portland cement-- the water chemically bonds in. To remove it, the flux must be heated to a high enough temperature to break the bonds (like calcining cement of plaster) for long enough that the moisture can diffuse out. Shorting the rod for a few seconds isn't enough, and heating in a toaster oven to 300F isn't either.

    If the rod has seen liquid water, it is scrap. The steel will rust and NO bakeout short of a blast furnace will fix that. You may not see the rust, but it is there. Yes, Lo-Hy has about the best reducing property of any rod, but it doesn't take much oxidation before the entire capability of the flux is committed to reducing the oxides in the filler rod, and there isn't enough left to properly clean and shield the weld, giving a porous weld and crappy performance..

  15. #40
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    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Denrep;
    Have you seen the little indicator cards with spots which change from blue to pink when the humidity gets above a certain point? I have some with three spots, 10%, 20% and 30% IIRC. I think I've seen some for 5% too; if you could get some of those and seal them into your bags, they might give you some information about how well the system works, even though 5% might be at the upper end of allowable at room temperature. The cards might be available at a good refrigeration supply company; FWIW. they generally use Cobalt Chloride as the principal chemical.
    The freon systems sometimes have sight glasses with the indicators (they used to be a 'ceramic' rather than paper spot) inside to indicate the presence of moisture within a system; I used one in an R-12 unit I built years ago.

  16. #41
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    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Just a thought: Use silica gel by pouring some of it into a rod tube partly empty. You can get this in larger containers at Walmart - it's used for drying flowers. When it absorbs enough moisture it changes colour to let you know, and you can re-use it by putting it in the oven (the instructions are on the box), and the colour changes back again. This stuff is the same as all the packets used for packing tools etc. I haven't used it for welding rods yet, because I just got a welder, but I have used it for toolboxes etc, and it works good - just put it in coffee filters and close with elastic for tools. Maybe just pour it in loose for rods.
    Last edited by vulcanrider75; 10-25-2010 at 11:13 PM.

  17. #42
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    3,427

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    all seem to agree that if if it is not a code weld, a lohy rod that has laid around is okay and none of these methods is necessary. if it is a code weld, the inspector has no choice but to require what is specified, and none of these methods ,regardless of how ingenious ,would be acceptable.

  18. #43
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    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    Quote Originally Posted by jsfab View Post
    If you want to do code welds, you absolutely have to follow code proceedures,.

    Well my xray's just came back with a thumbs up. 2 different ones too. Just sayin.


    When I was taught by one guy was to remove every bit of slag after every pass and to sometimes let the pipe cool (not on big field pipes just our XX coupons). Now i just break off the slag and run it hotter and burn through everything and fill it to flush without stopping.

  19. #44
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    Mar 2008
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    92

    Re: Drying a 7018 rod

    please clarify... using what method of drying?

    Quote Originally Posted by zhillz View Post
    Well my xray's just came back with a thumbs up. 2 different ones too. Just sayin.


    When I was taught by one guy was to remove every bit of slag after every pass and to sometimes let the pipe cool (not on big field pipes just our XX coupons). Now i just break off the slag and run it hotter and burn through everything and fill it to flush without stopping.
    52, 59 & 66 Lincoln SA200, Tombstone Idealarc 250, Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 50, Marquette 250 amp mig, Miller 330 A/BP

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