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  1. #51
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    cell phone pics came out crappy, I didnt have time to find the digital cam this am.

    I played with it last night and just cant figure it out. I tried 60 amps, 6 background, 50% peak, and 4pps, 20pps, 60pps, 100pps... nothing helped.

    60 - 6 - 50% - 20pps gave me the best bead profile, good travel speeds to where I wasnt feeling rushed and I felt I wasnt putting alot of heat into the metal sitting there tinkering with making a pritty weld. but they still were grey. but the surface was smooth, not porus with lots of micro pits.

    tired 60 amps 6 bg, 40% peak, 10pps, 20 pps... still grey, alot less heat and had to travel slower to flatten out the puddle. HAZ was about the same though.

    lowered the peak time to 35 and 30% and couldnt even make a puddle flatten out.

    I even tried the interesting 150amps, low background, 50% peak, 4pps suggestion and it still didnt solve the problem. but it was fun! it was like blasting spot welds, I could only dab ever 4th or so.

    I took the pulse off and found that 30-40 amps would be the sweet spot to make a nice weld and run with it quick. still grey though.

    Then I got to thinking, maybe its my filler rod. If I used the 150 amp pulse thing on across the tube, it left a shiney weld, but only if I moved it fast. If I used my 60 amp settings above it would make a grey weld.

    Also for what its worth I notice the end of my filler rod is grey where it melts, yet shiney and a slight blue haz a mill or so up the end.

    I think its just crappy base metal and crappy filler? I dont really know.

  2. #52
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    You need to get rid of the pulse, use the .035 or 1/16 filler, and pay better attention to not pulling your filler out of the gas coverage during welding. I'd put money on both your rod and your base metal being fine, provided they're clean. This thread and many of the suggestions therein are trying to reinvent the wheel to a process which requires little more than the right materials, a reasonable amperage range, dexterity, and practice.

  3. #53
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by Supe View Post
    You need to get rid of the pulse, use the .035 or 1/16 filler, and pay better attention to not pulling your filler out of the gas coverage during welding. I'd put money on both your rod and your base metal being fine, provided they're clean. This thread and many of the suggestions therein are trying to reinvent the wheel to a process which requires little more than the right materials, a reasonable amperage range, dexterity, and practice.
    I tried some thicker filler a week back when i was messing with it, results wernt any better.

    I do the drop dab technique. position the filler level with the tungsten stand off, just about 1/16" infront of it, just drop it down into the puddle to dip, then raise it back up to move forward. I even tried laying the wire and running it over, and that didnt make any difference.


    Like I said already, I turned the pluse off and tried it conventionally, around 40 amps was all it took feathering it along the way to get a nice pace going. Still didnt help.

    Only thing I can think is that I am runnign low on argon in the tank, like there is less than 400psi left in it, maybe the quality of gas isnt there towards the end of the tank?

  4. #54
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    unfortunately I don't have any thin tube experience, but you might try starting a new thread to get more responses. My thread is kind of old and I'm sure people are skipping over it.

    I'll keep and eye on yours, have some headers I will have to work on soon.

    Robert

  5. #55
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    10-4. Ill get the digital cam out tonight and make a new thread with my pics and start there,

  6. #56
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    I use 41amps on 16gauge with 1/16 filler and by the end of the weld I'm melting off the end of the filler in the front edge of the weld pool as fast as I can, dunno, maybe 2/3 times a second. The problem with SS is that you need to go hot to get the filler to wet out nicely, if you drop down even a couple of amps it tends to either mount up too much (giving you nice colour but a crap looking bead) or you end up going too slow and burn the material.
    Don't expect to get it over night, it took me hundreds of welds before I could get it right without burning it, and if you're doing full pen using filler, purple is about as good as it gets (without using a trailing cup or purge chamber).
    Last edited by Baila La Pinza; 11-30-2010 at 01:27 PM.

  7. #57
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyKid View Post
    my setup is as follows for some 16ga 304 exhaust tubing and some 1/8th scrap plate for straight beads no fitments:

    Thermal Arc - Arcmaster 185
    #7 gas lenses, 1/16th 1.5% Lanth, sharp long point, ave of 14cfh (tried higher and lower), 309L 1/16th filler, 100% argon
    DC pulsed, 60 amps, 6amps background, 40% peak time, 10hz

    I cant seem to get the beads to stay shiny.
    First, why are you pulsing? MIller has an article about high frequency pulsing - giving better penetration and less HAZ. Not sure if you will see the benefit on .065

    Try .035 filler. You will need to make the puddle too big (ie too much heat) to even be able to dip the 1/16 rod. Not that experts couldn't do it, its just unnecessarily hard. Buy some MIG wire (308L) and cut and straighten pieces as you need them.

    I would also use the .040 tungsten. That should hold 60 Amps for a bit. Besides, you are pulsing anyway.

    Keep the shortest arc you are comfortable with.

    You didn't mention purge. Purge helps alot. If you aren't going to purge I would not go for a full penetration weld (if you are doing exhaust pipe you will not need full penetration anyway) - tight, tight fitup and fussion weld. Just enough to move the puddle. If the fitup is not perfect and you have to add filler, it will sugar on the backside and gray on the front. Its actually much better just to back purge from the get go. Solar Flux might help. Personally back purged is easier once you have second flow meter/hoses etc.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by con_fuse9 View Post
    Try .035 filler. You will need to make the puddle too big (ie too much heat) to even be able to dip the 1/16 rod. Not that experts couldn't do it, its just unnecessarily hard. Buy some MIG wire (308L) and cut and straighten pieces as you need them.
    I bought three foot lengths of .035 308L TIG rod from my LWS. For me, straightening MIG wire is not worth the difference in price.

    Solar Flux might help. Personally back purged is easier once you have second flow meter/hoses etc.
    Solar Flux will definitely help the inside of the weld, but no matter how tight the fit-up and carefully you apply the flux, it will find its way to the outside, floating on the pool and making it sluggish.

    I suggest you change the angle you sharpen your tungsten. The long taper spreads the arc so you're making a wider bead and putting more heat in the part than necessary. Look at this article and try something on the right side of the chart.

    http://www.arc-zone.com/pdf/GrindingTungsten.pdf

    As long as the arc starts and remains stable, you can go all the way to a flat tip with a small tungsten. Along with the smaller filler and short arc, you'll be able to make much smaller beads . . . with less heat input.
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  9. #59
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    First to answer the questions towards me.

    I am pulsing to try to keep the heat out, I though that was the point to pulsing. Also I wouldn’t consider 20hz or less high freq. I tried more tonight with out pulsing.

    I tried some .035 filler, but it was 312 or something odd irc. I bought a small spool to make quick tacks when building some exhaust. And they didn’t have 308L. Ill find some thinner filler or a spool of 308 035 and try it.

    Where are you finding .40 consumables? my LWS doesn’t carry them... i am sure arc zone has them maybe ill order them and give it a shot.

    no purge. I need to get to home depot and T it off and hook up my other reg laying around. I bet this will make all the difference in the world... i should stop wasting my time without it! lol

    Ill try a short flattened grind in a little while, or tomorrow night and report back.



    Anyways here is what I am dealing with.



    Thats done with 45 amps, NO PULSE, 1/16th filler. I watched the little white jitter bug circling around the entire time, and in a later pic you will see I am getting full pen. probably my problem.



    The weld looks smooth and decent bead profile to me. It looks like I am outrunning the shielding gas, or the weld is too hot and takes too long to cool, so as I move forward the gas trailing behind isnt shielding it long enough to keep oxygen out of it. The post flow at the end is clean, which supports my theory.



    That was 60 amps max, 6 bg, 60%, 20hz. Slightly flatter beads, little more penetration. Like you mentioned, apparently the pulsing added penetration, and hept the haz down. which you can see the haz is ever so slightly less.


    Why I probably need purging to fix this issue...




    Because I am putting the same heat into the entire bead, and the end where I post flow it till it cools... I dont think I am "cooking" the stainless and burning off the shininess (I forget what metal compound is in SS that keeps it shiny and rust resistant that is easily burned off by getting too hot).

    I think its a combo of too much penetration, allowing the unshielded oxygen to float up through the puddle, contaminating the weld and no shielding gas trailing behind cooling the "too hot" weld behind my forward movement.

    what do you think!?!

  10. #60
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    yeah its def too much penetration and no purge. I took the pulse off and set it to 10 amps, knowing no way would it penetrate to the other side. no filler, and moved forward 2 inches. tiny path and clean as a wistle. set it at 20, same thing, bigger weld still clean, 30 wider yet still clean, 40 amps was too much it penetrated through and was grey, I found about 33 amps was the ragged edge.

    Then I butted up two pipes and did the same thing. 10, 20, 30, 40. fusion welded them and found the same above. 30 was the sweet spot. But I found that if I added filler, the weight must have added penetration and greyed it again, and didnt make a very flat bead.



    30 fusion:




    40 fusion... too deep no purge:




    40 with filler... would have made a nice strong weld and look good if it was back purged:




    Tungsten was shot, and needed to be sharped... I dont have anything here to sharpen it with a am at my house and my tackle box of parts and sharpner is at the shop. So I wont even post the pipes I fusion welded together with 30 amps, becasue it was very poor arc control! lol but they were golden, clean and shiney. It isnt the strongest joints, I think 40 amps or so, purged and dabbed would add some more meat to the weldment, or atleast 35-40 amps fusion purged would be the ticket.

    I am going shoping for some purge equiptment soon!

    30 amps

  11. #61
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    KrazyKid

    Re-sizing your images will stop the text from being cut off in mid sentence.

    While you're working on techniques and settings, you need to begin
    trying real hard--at the bead end, to FADE OUT to stop making these
    rather consistent crater cracks.

    Those become crack initiators and pressure leaks, they're easy to do
    in SS, AL and steel--as you and many others before you have shown us!

    A crater is a no-pass on visual or NDT inspection and sez more than one
    might guess about the weldor.

    This biz of fading out has been discussed a bunch of times, concerning
    techniques and sometimes adding just a touch of filler to that last hot puddle.

    http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1291270133
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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  12. #62
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Yeah I gotcha... I usually back off the pedal and dab a few little extra touches at the end to keep the crater away... on these example I just didnt really care! lol Thanks for the keen eye though!

    a quick pic on some simple tabs for a radiator core support on my FWD drag car.
    http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...2/DSC00714.jpg not a great pic of my work, but only one I could find quickly.


    I am going to pick up 2, 3" rubber end caps and hose clamps from home depot and some hose nipples and hose to make a nice purge setup and see how it helps. I am sure it will be night and day.

    I have a few questions about this now. Since argon is heavier that air, I have to purge the entire section I "mask off" inside of air, then flow the argon while I weld. does it have to point upwards directing it towards my weldments or the argon blowing through will billow it around and shield it anyway? would it be a good idea to make a little difuser thing at the end of my hose inside the purge section, I was thinking find a brass or copper porus filter i could shove onto the hose and that would "mist" the argon out, not just blow it right out the tube. or am I over thinking this idea?

  13. #63
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyKid View Post
    I have a few questions about this now. Since argon is heavier that air, I have to purge the entire section I "mask off" inside of air, then flow the argon while I weld. . . . . I was thinking find a brass or copper porus filter i could shove onto the hose and that would "mist" the argon out, not just blow it right out the tube. or am I over thinking this idea?
    A porous filter might act like a gas lens, reducing turbulence and mixing of the incoming argon with the air in the tube, but I've never had a problem without it. It is helpful to have a small exit hole at the end opposite the fill to help the air escape.
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  14. #64
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Thats what i was what I was thinking. but if its to laminar of a flow it might not focus on the back side of my weld and not work as well as opposed to just blowing it around in there.

    Ditto on the exit port. Ill post up some pics of my setup... I have a good idea in my head on how to make it.

  15. #65
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Just a couple of notes:

    For filler, my LWS only stocks 308L in 1/16. You want anything else its special order and takes a couple of days. They use Washington Alloys almost exclusively. When I do buy small quantites of say, 347, often it doesn't come with stamped ends! I think they just straighten and cut the wire. I personally buy pre-cut, but if I needed something in a hurry, I would have to buy the MIG wire and cut it myself.

    Nice article on TIG points. I don't think I ever change the angle on the grinder. I will now.

    For purging stainless. I bought the smith dual flow meter (cheaper than Victor) for something like $160. LWS made up a 25ft hose. I do rough guesstimate on volume, multiply that by 1.2, and purge at 20cfh or so for a given amount of time (to cover the calculated volume). I then turn it down to 5cfh
    https://weldingsupply.securesites.co...EF:X:33-50-580 about $160 now.
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  16. #66
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyKid View Post
    Thats what i was what I was thinking. but if its to laminar of a flow it might not focus on the back side of my weld and not work as well as opposed to just blowing it around in there.
    Think of the argon as water . . . the argon will displace the air, not stay mixed with it. You are filling the tube with argon and it makes little difference whether the incoming stream is laminar or turbulent.
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  17. #67
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    exactly what i was thinking. hense the over thinking part of my reply up there! swingin into Homedepot tonight... ill be layin some sick golden dimes in no time.

    thanks for all the help guys!

  18. #68
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by rs_customs View Post
    Thanks for the comments guys!

    4sfed I'll have to ask my buddy what he had applied. He had a local guys do it here in town and the first coating flaked off after the first time running the car. The second coating seems to be holding up to 2000 degree f using pyrometers in the manifold to know what it seeing (rotarys get hot, lol).

    I'll find out and let you know.
    Robert
    Hey,
    Guess I'm the buddy.

    Anyway, I original asked for the Black Satin (BHK) they offer and to make a long story short I ended up with Cilgen Satin Black. Both of them are coatings offered by Techline Coating. This is a link to a page with just a few of the exhaust coatings they offer.

  19. #69
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader_9x View Post
    Hey,
    Guess I'm the buddy.

    Anyway, I original asked for the Black Satin (BHK) they offer and to make a long story short I ended up with Cilgen Satin Black. Both of them are coatings offered by Techline Coating. This is a link to a page with just a few of the exhaust coatings they offer.
    Thanks for the info. Some like their headers coated because of the appearance. Even on normally aspirated engines, stainless doesn't stay shiny very long. BTW, I just had lunch at the Right Wing Tavern last Wednesday . . . visiting relatives for the holiday.

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  20. #70
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Someone please help me figure out where all these new welders are so fixated on a root pass? That stuff is THIN. Tack and fry. SS hates heat, the more you pump into it the more you ruin it. The older guys know this and the new guys keep thinking that you have to stand on the pedal and go like crazy.

    I would say that anything thinner than 1/4 wall can be easily welded in a single pass if the fit is proper. I could be way off but this stuff with fusion weld passes seems down right silly to me.

    Those welds posted look really bad. WATCH THE POOL. Don't just stab the rod and go. You use low amps by heating the area adding your fill and moving slowly taking the pool with you. Your welds are done like this: heat stab with filler move way too far, and repeat. It should be: slowly establish pool, add a little filler and smoothly and slowly progress forward adding a quarter of the filler you have been and moving a quarter of the distance. Your filler hand should be adding filler constantly, tap tap tap tap tap every half second or so while moving much slower. That pool should flow before you move it. Even your fusion welds lack smothness, the edges are all wavy from you moving way to far too fast.

    Your torch angle is all jacked, your laying the torch way over. On tube it's always changing, those welds should appear round, not oval.

    90 percent of tig issues are people just doing, without watching the weld. If it's moving to fast for you back the heat off and slow down. If you watch a professional he is always working that pool. It's not a mig, you control the pace.
    Last edited by n20junkie; 12-02-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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  21. #71
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by n20junkie View Post
    Someone please help me figure out where all these new welders are so fixated on a root pass? . . . the new guys keep thinking that you have to stand on the pedal and go like crazy.
    That's the advice they're getting from some of the contributors . . .
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  22. #72
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    I might not be making friends then.
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  23. #73
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by dave powelson View Post
    KrazyKid

    Re-sizing your images will stop the text from being cut off in mid sentence.
    ..........................................



    Thanks for saying that. There are a lot of people who don't understand.
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  24. #74
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by n20junkie View Post
    Someone please help me figure out where all these new welders are so fixated on a root pass? That stuff is THIN. Tack and fry. SS hates heat, the more you pump into it the more you ruin it. The older guys know this and the new guys keep thinking that you have to stand on the pedal and go like crazy.

    I would say that anything thinner than 1/4 wall can be easily welded in a single pass if the fit is proper. I could be way off but this stuff with fusion weld passes seems down right silly to me.

    Those welds posted look really bad. WATCH THE POOL. Don't just stab the rod and go. You use low amps by heating the area adding your fill and moving slowly taking the pool with you. Your welds are done like this: heat stab with filler move way too far, and repeat. It should be: slowly establish pool, add a little filler and smoothly and slowly progress forward adding a quarter of the filler you have been and moving a quarter of the distance. Your filler hand should be adding filler constantly, tap tap tap tap tap every half second or so while moving much slower. That pool should flow before you move it. Even your fusion welds lack smothness, the edges are all wavy from you moving way to far too fast.

    Your torch angle is all jacked, your laying the torch way over. On tube it's always changing, those welds should appear round, not oval.

    90 percent of tig issues are people just doing, without watching the weld. If it's moving to fast for you back the heat off and slow down. If you watch a professional he is always working that pool. It's not a mig, you control the pace.

    Great advice!.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyno View Post
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  25. #75
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    Re: Tig SS pipe Problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by n20junkie View Post
    I might not be making friends then.
    I hope you stick around. It's the internet. You can't believe everything you read and, unfortunately, you can't expect everyone to believe the advice you give them . . . even though you know it's good. I'm sure your advice to WATCH THE POOL has helped more than one person who has been lurking, but not posting.
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