Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle
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  1. #1
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    Question Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    I've never needed to pull 220V off the TB until I got this XMT. I want to set it up so it can be running off the generator while I can be welding off the TB as well. As you may know, the receptacle is the 14-50 range style, for which already have two plugs.

    1. Right-angle range plug.
    2. K&H Industries P-1450DF plug.

    I used K&H plugs and connectors to make up the 50' extension cord, and a K&H plug at the XMT pigtail. All of these are 6/4 SO cord, and I wired them up with all three of the current-carrying wires so I would be set for in-plant 3-phase.

    My plan was to make a little 3' single-phase adapter cord to adapt to my shop and TB. So I test-fit a K&H plug to the receptacle on the welder, and unless I notch through the partitions between the work lug and the receptacle, and the 110V bank and the receptacle, the plug won't fit - it's way too big in diameter.

    I hate to cut on the machine, but the main problem I have is I don't know how OSHA will look on notched partitions on the machine.

    The little right-angle range plug I have is a tight fit, but I'm not sure it'll fit at all once there's a cord coming out of the bottom, again because of the way the receptacle is recessed into the TB. I'm also not sure I can stuff (3) 6-gauge wires into it, as compact as it is. Especially for the ground lug.

    The only other option I see is that Cooper/Arrow Hart makes a straight plug, part number 5745N. Has anybody physically plugged that plug into a TB302 receptacle? Does it fit?

    If not, what do you do to use your 220V receptacle?
    Applied Fabrications, LLC

    Mobile Welding / Mechanical Repair in VA's Piedmont & Shenandoah Valley

  2. #2
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Quote Originally Posted by tbone550 View Post
    ...As you may know, the receptacle is the 14-50 range style, for which already have two plugs.

    1. Right-angle range plug.
    2. K&H Industries P-1450DF plug.

    I used K&H plugs and connectors to make up the 50' extension cord, and a K&H plug at the XMT pigtail. All of these are 6/4 SO cord, and I wired them up with all three of the current-carrying wires so I would be set for in-plant 3-phase....
    This is the part that is confusing me. Why is 3-phase part of this question? The big receptacle on the TB only supplies 120/240V single-phase power, with a neutral and a ground.

  3. #3
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    I think he was referring to the fact he wired up the plug so it would work on single phase on the generator, and 3 phase when he had it in the plants to hook up directly to the power.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    There is couple issue it will be arise here first thing first., the 1450 NEMA receptale / plug foramt is a 120/240 volt single phase with netural and grounding conductor set up while the three phase verison of this will have complety diffrent face on the receptale and both are NOT interchangeable

    So let me post the 15-50R first to show what this is a three phase verison look like.


    http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1291451389


    Now let me post the 14-50R look like this is a single phase 120/240 volt 4 conductor set up


    http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1291451430

    that will make the diffrence between the two and both are not interchangeable at all.

    And to OP which three phase supply do your customer have due some are wired for 240 volt delta or 208 Wye connection { both will share same type of receptales } so that is the extra step you have to watch out.

    Merci.
    Marc
    Last edited by Frenchelectrican; 12-04-2010 at 04:34 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Let me explain the 3-phase part further to help get you beyond that, because my question doesn't have anything to do with that. Sorry if I explain some things you already know, and I probably shouldn't have even mentioned the 3-phase part at all, since it's just confusing things. My fault!

    The XMT 304 I have is made to automatically detect and link to single-phase or 3-phase current, 208V-230V/460V. The pigtail coming off of the welder has (6) 4-ga wires - green, black, red, and white.
    -Green is always ground.
    -According to the manual, if you're using single phase, you hook the black and white wires up in the plug, and tape the red one off.
    -If you're using 3-phase power, you use all 3 wires in addition to the ground.
    -My shop is single-phase, and is going to be wired with 14-50 receptacles so the same tools I use in the shop can be plugged into the Trailblazer on a jobsite. Those receptacles will be wired normally, including the neutral, which is not used by the welder.
    -Yes, the Trailblazer is also single-phase.
    -The heavy industrial plants around here are on 3-phase.
    -They are all using different receptacles.
    -If there is no single-phase available in those plants, I'll probably be connecting to the 3-phase by jumper wires from a pigtail adapter on the end of my extension cord.
    -I don't want to be continually switching wires in and out of a plug to adapt between phases.

    So, I wired both the machine and the 50' SO 6/4 extension cord up as if they were going to hook into 3-phase, using the neutral terminal on the 14-50 plug as if it were the 3rd phase conductor. It's exactly the same construction as the other terminals, so I'm not concerned. Each plug which is wired this way is big, weather-resistant bright yellow and will also be labeled "3-PHASE ONLY." I'm the only one who uses this machine, and when I sell it I will definitely be taking off that expensive K&H plug, so no one will be confused and mess up.

    As a side note, because of the weather-resistance of this design of plug, farmers in this area use these plugs for silo unloaders, many of which are 3-phase.

    Soooooo......we have an XMT and it's extension cord, both wired up as if for 3-phase use. Now there will be 2 short adapter cords made.

    1. A 3-phase adapter cord. It will have a 14-50 K&H connector to mate to the extension cord (or the XMT plug), and the other end will be a pigtail, ready to be hooked into a subpanel, or if need be into the appropriate plug for use in a receptacle. This will spare me having to remove plugs at either the machine or the extension cord to hook in the red wire and/or use that end as a pigtail for hardwiring.

    2. A single-phase adapter cord. It will only have 3 wires hooked up - the ground, black, and white. The red wire will be taped off inside the plug, and nothing will be hooked to it's terminal.

    The adapter cord will have a 14-50 K&H connector to mate to the extension cord (or the XMT plug), AND A 14-50 plug of SOME SORT WHICH IS WHAT I NEED HELP WITH, which will have to fit in between the partitions surrounding the 220V plug on the Trailblazer.

    So again, does anyone know if a Cooper 5745N is small enough in diameter that it fits in the Trailblazer receptacle? Because the angled range plug I have doesn't (the downward-exiting cord stops that) and neither would a K&H plug (around 3/4" too large in diameter).

    Or what did you find to fit that receptacle?
    Applied Fabrications, LLC

    Mobile Welding / Mechanical Repair in VA's Piedmont & Shenandoah Valley

  6. #6
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    I use one of these Leviton plugs. Available at HomeDepot. Fit's just fine into the TB302 socket.

    http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...minisite=10026

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  7. #7
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Wintermute, thanks. That's a lot more beefy than the angled plug I have out in the shop. That's exactly the answer I was looking for.
    Applied Fabrications, LLC

    Mobile Welding / Mechanical Repair in VA's Piedmont & Shenandoah Valley

  8. #8
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    not a problem. You're making a pig-tail adapter right? One that will adapt to connect to the single phase output of the TB and then a separate one that will connect to your 3 phase socket correct?

    --Wintermute
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  9. #9
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Yes, two different adapters. Since the TB and 50' extension cord are wired up for 3-phase input already, the 3-phase adapter will just be a short cord with a female K&H connector on one end and a pigtail on the other, ready for whichever 3-phase plug is needed or to be hardwired into a breaker panel. The single phase adapter will have a female K&H connector on one end and the Leviton 14-50 plug on the other, and the Leviton plug will not have that red 3rd phase wire hooked up in it. So all the TB will "see" is the ground, black, and white wires, and the auto link will figure out the rest.
    Applied Fabrications, LLC

    Mobile Welding / Mechanical Repair in VA's Piedmont & Shenandoah Valley

  10. #10
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    What you're doing will work fine. However, I would use 15-50 plugs for the 3-phase ext cord and power cord on the XMT, and then adapt that to 14-50 single phase for the Trailblazer and shop, to reduce the confusion. At least then you'll be using the correct class of plug for the type of connection you're making and no accidents can happen, resulting in a fried XMT.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Quote Originally Posted by tbone550 View Post
    . . .I hate to cut on the machine, but the main problem I have is I don't know how OSHA will look on notched partitions on the machine. . . .
    That's a concern, seriously?

    Don't worry, it'll never be noticed. When the inspector's eye is drawn to the adapters used for connecting mixed systems, he's gonna blow a 100 amp fuse and never will get around to checking details on the portable.
    -----------
    Okay, seriously.
    For the sake of this discussion lets assume that NEC didn't exist and this system's user is the last person on earth; it's still a recipe for disaster.

    But let's skip the "wrongs" and instead ask one very basic question:
    Why not simply always connect the XMT as just single-phase, even when used at your customer's heavy industrial plant?

    Good Luck
    Last edited by denrep; 12-05-2010 at 02:25 AM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    DesertRider, thanks for your input. After reading the replies to this thread, that's exactly what I'll do.

    Quote Originally Posted by denrep View Post
    That's a concern, seriously?
    Yes, because I'll rarely be running the XMT off of the TB, but I'll always have the TB on jobsites.

    Sorry I don't have your electrical knowledge. My local electric supplier knew exactly what I was doing and said it would work fine. Also, I knew we used the K&H weather-resistant 14-50's on the farm for 3-phase silo unloaders and had no problems with them. I've noticed them on other farms running 3-phase unloaders as well - those big, bright yellow plugs and connectors are hard to miss. I had no reason to think about it any further.

    I asked the same question about pulling single phase off of three-phase. They said it created an unbalanced load and wasn't recommended, especially if I had an auto-linking machine at my disposal.
    Applied Fabrications, LLC

    Mobile Welding / Mechanical Repair in VA's Piedmont & Shenandoah Valley

  13. #13
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    I wouldn't see too many problems with using pigtail adapters from an inspection standpoint. Alot of the new multi-voltage/phase machines come with factory supplied pigtail adapters for just that purpose. Just make sure you wire them all up correctly, and they should all be adapted off of the 3 phase cord from the machine. For the single phase pigtail, don't use 3 phase wiring and then just cut one wire short or cap it off, use single phase wiring and just don't connect to one post on the three phase adapter side of the pigtail.

    --Wintermute
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  14. #14
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Sorry Tbone, I just found it ironic that with an all-out bootleg, we'd be worried about cutting a small and neat clearance notch in the machine's fascia, next to the receptacle. What I meant mostly is that it'd take a very picky checker to notice that or to consider it as a problem. Anyway, it sounds like you're getting closer to a solution.

    The industrial job sites where you want to plug in are probably running 480v with drops fused at 60 amps. As to one small single-phase load putting such system into imbalance, it's a non-issue. Anyway, back to connecting XMT at three-phase.

    Some of the plugs mentioned here -all rules aside- can not be trusted with 480v, regardless of what any salesman says.

    480 is a different animal than 240. In a typical welding environment, 480 will easily arc and track, even with 600v rated equipment, when slight defects are present. There is just no way you can trust low-grade 250v equipment with carrying 480v. Until you've see a 480v plug vaporize in a fireball, it's tough to appreciate their potential. I'm sure there are others here who have seen it too. Last time: Plugs rated for 250v are very unsafe to use at higher voltage.

    So to wrap this up, when connecting at three phase the machine probably only needs a 20-30 amp supply from a #10 or #12 cord; you'll have to confirm that. With such low current requirements, the correct wire and connectors will be relatively inexpensive. Why pay extra for the wrong stuff?? There's just no sense gambling with the improper connectors and also fighting jumbo #6 wire, especially since the heavy cable and its compatible adapters will cost much more than the right stuff.

    But the biggest issue here is that this solution has to solve an unknown problem. The unknown future site's available power and the cord length needed to connect to it are both unknown. I don't see how anyone can have one right answer to prepare Tbone Welding for these unknowns. What is known, is that mismatched components aren't permitted anywhere and that it'd be a rare facility which would turn a blind eye to haphazard temporary connections. Think about it... if we're worried about a notched fascia plate, just think how an inspector or supervisor would handle seeing an ad hoc three-phase connection.

    In my opinion, the best (and cheapest and safest) way to be prepared for whatever unknown three-phase comes at you, would be to buy two terminal boxes (per temporary generator connections) a roll of the smaller less expensive wire (#10 or whatever the machine specs) and a few pieces of miscellaneous strain-relief hardware. A lot of this cable will easily fit under your truck's seat. When you land the job, in five minutes you can make a safe and legal connection through your terminal boxes. If you'll be connecting there often, you can buy their style plug and connect through your terminal box with a short whip. If the next job is at a different place, the same stuff will connect you again; regardless of their plug type. The jumbo cable you now have will still be good with the TB or at the home shop, where you need its heavy conductors.


    Good Luck
    Last edited by denrep; 12-06-2010 at 05:50 PM.

  15. #15
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Tbone - I couldn't find the one I wanted to post a picture of, but you can imagine the fire that flies to do this:

    Attachment 59119
    Last edited by denrep; 12-06-2010 at 06:49 PM.

  16. #16
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    Re: Need help with Trailblazer 220V receptacle

    Denrep, understood. I didn't know what I was proposing was a 'bootleg' to begin with. The reason for the heavy cord is, well, that's what I already have on hand. The XMT came with a brand new 50' roll of 6/4, and I already had another 50' of 6/4 at the shop with K&H ends on it.

    Let's talk a little further about modifying my original idea if you don't mind. I'll start another thread so it'll be easier for searchers to find in the future.
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