Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver
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  1. #1
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    Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    I have an old Haas Model 5C Indexer. I was planning on cutting a 93 tooth back gear for my old Lagun mill and got side tracked upgrading my indexer. I decided to break this build out as it may interest others building similar indexers. In case you missed the original thread here it is: http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...sor&highlight=

    Turned out I discovered a programming limitation in my old indexer control. Anything evenly divisible into 360 is not an issue. 90 tooth, cake, 93 tooth, not so much. The interface only allowed for degrees and minutes. Every move was going to be off by 15.48 seconds... and by the time I made it around the horn I was going to be off a lot. Ok, not too much only 25 thousands at the radius... but jeez that didn't sound like a smooth running gear.


    So, I posted my dilemma over at cnczone, and even called haas hoping for a work around. General consensus was that it was too old. Haas speculated that half stepping may help. Nope. Turned out this indexer was built in 1985 so granted it is old. Here the full write-up if your interested in the gory details. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas-m...77828-cnc.html

    So I called my friend who built an indexer control for his little Sherline rotary table using an Arduino. He made it sound pretty simple but because of the 4.6 amp stepper I'd need some kind of stepper driver... and a power supply... and an Arduino. I started reading.
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/arduino/215402-cnc.html

    I dug around the shop and found some Pacific Scientific 6410 stepper drivers that I got with a mill I'm working on. He said they would work great. I started layout the Arduino plan.

    Then I came across a stepper driver called an indexer... what is that I wondered? Did some reading and turned out I could program the driver directly over rs-232.

    After a LOT of reading I rolled the dice on a Pacific Scientific 6420 for $97+shipping. I liked the programming language, very simple and it would suit itself to an Arduino interface if I ever decided to finish it out. It supported variable stepping down to 1/100 step and programmable slopes. Sure, I looked at the Geckco indexer but I liked some of the features like loops.

    So yesterday I dug out an OLD laptop and installed a command line version of Ubuntu 15 with Minicom. I'm planning on mounting the whole mess in a Nema box. This morning I drilled the back plate and pressed in captive nuts. I mounted the power supply and built a serial cable while I waited for Fedex. Once the drive was in my hands I wired it up. It works great! Now I can program the steps directly.

    I did all 93 steps... manually... and it appears to have finished exactly where I started! I can't believe how simple it was.

    Here's a few photos:
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  2. #2
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Nice!


  3. #3
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by Britt View Post
    Nice!

    Thanks Britt.

    I've been gone for a new days. I finally had some time to work on this some more. Yesterday afternoon I went to shop and turned on the new control and setup and ssh connection to the house so I could work on writing an interface. Serial programming has always made my head hurt so I decided I'd try my hand at Python with pySerial. Everyone said it is so simple. After a couple of hours of messing around I was able to write and read some basic stuff but my program was seriously limited. No where near my goal. I sent an email to my friend hoping he had some pyserial experience. Then it dawned on me my brother does serial programming for a living... so I blasted him an email and he called me back. After answering a few questions he said he'd drive out. He came out and whipped out a working frame work in no time. Yeah! After he left I cleaned up a few things. Basically the program prompts for number of divisions, writes the number of steps to the driver, waits for the steps to complete, then prompts for the user to press enter to move the next division. Pretty simple.

    I'm thinking I should be able to alternatively read one of the 8 input lines and move forward based on the relay pulse from my cnc control... but for this project of making the new back gear for my old Lagun... I'll be pulsing manually on my manual mill.

    Here's the code if anyone is interested. Be kind, it's purpose built for my needs.
    import time
    import serial
    import itertools, sys

    spinner = itertools.cycle(['-', '/', '|', '\\'])
    stepsPerRevolution = float(14400)

    def readWriteCommand(data):
    assert 0 == ser.inWaiting(), 'Unexpected Data In Buffer'
    ser.write(data)
    result = ser.readline()
    return result

    def init():
    ser.flushInput() #Mske sure buffer isn't dirty
    readWriteCommand("I 1\r") #Set Variable Resolution mode
    readWriteCommand("M 10 10\r") #Accel/Decel ramps
    readWriteCommand("F 300\r") #Initial velocity
    readWriteCommand("V 3000\r") #Final velocity
    readWriteCommand("Z\r") #Absolute home @0

    def moveToPosition(target):
    strTarget = "%.2f" % (target)
    readWriteCommand('@' + strTarget + '\r')
    while isMoving():
    sys.stdout.write(spinner.next()) # write the next character
    sys.stdout.flush() # flush stdout buffer (actual character display)
    sys.stdout.write('\b') # erase the last written char

    def readCurrentPosition():
    return readWriteCommand('C\r')[1:].strip()

    def isMoving():
    result = readWriteCommand("]\r")[1:].strip()
    if result == '0':
    return False
    elif result == '1':
    return True
    else:
    raise Exception('Unexpected response for isMoving')


    def promptForNumberOfDivisions():
    while True:
    var = raw_input("Enter number of divisions (Positive integer):")
    try:
    var = int(var)
    except:
    continue;
    if var > 0:
    return var

    def calculateNextTarget(numberOfDivisions, completedDivisions):
    return stepsPerRevolution * float(completedDivisions) / float(numberOfDivisions)



    ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyS0', 9600, timeout=5)

    init()

    divisions = promptForNumberOfDivisions()

    print 'Processing ' + str(divisions) + ' divisions.'

    completedDivisions = 0
    while completedDivisions < divisions:
    moveToPosition(calculateNextTarget(divisions, completedDivisions))
    pos = readCurrentPosition()
    degrees = float(pos)/40
    print 'Position (from unit): ' + pos + ' Degrees: ' + str(degrees)
    print 'Current Position: ' + str(completedDivisions + 1) + '/' + str(divisions)
    raw_input('Press [enter] to proceed to next postition')
    completedDivisions += 1

    #Return to Zero position without reversing
    moveToPosition(14400)
    pos = readCurrentPosition()
    degrees = float(pos)/40
    print 'Position (from unit): ' + pos + ' Degrees: ' + str(degrees)

    ser.close()

  4. #4
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    for hire; when our antique south bend lathe crashed i found out just how difficult gear cutting can be without an index. we don't even have cnc but i like reading your posts. always informative!
    i.u.o.e. # 15
    queens, ny and sunny fla

  5. #5
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by docwelder View Post
    for hire; when our antique south bend lathe crashed i found out just how difficult gear cutting can be without an index. we don't even have cnc but i like reading your posts. always informative!
    Thanks, I'm really liking the stepper indexer. It's proving very easy to program now that I have the basic program working. I spent some time today playing with it and made some changes to fix a few issues I found while testing. Basically I am now flushing the io before writing/reading and put a few pauses to allow the controller to catch it's breath. Turned out the ESC-SPACE that is required to activate the indexer and returns the banner was too slow and caused the program to lose the next command. Oops! I also removed some of the code that was causing it to escape out if it didn't get the response it hoped for right away. Funny how some of the timing issues didn't show up when run over ssh... I guess it was just slow enough. Now it's working very reliably.

    Here's the update functions:
    def readWriteCommand(data):
    ser.flushInput()
    ser.flushOutput()
    ser.write(data)
    time.sleep(0.01)
    result = ser.readline()
    return result

    def init():
    readWriteCommand("\27 \r") #Enable Indexer
    time.sleep(0.01)
    readWriteCommand("I 1\r") #Set Variable Resolution mode
    readWriteCommand("M 10 10\r") #Accel/Decel ramps
    readWriteCommand("F 300\r") #Initial velocity
    readWriteCommand("V 3000\r") #Final velocity
    readWriteCommand("Z\r") #Absolute home @0

    def isMoving():
    result = readWriteCommand("]\r")[1:].strip()
    if result == '0':
    return False
    else:
    return True

  6. #6
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    I milled out the enclosure for the various plugs and switch I needed. I really dislike milling enclosures. They are a pain to fixture and hard to keep rigid. In this one I put a jack inside to stiffen it up. I've had some mishaps over the years and this time was no exception. This time my post processor didn't issue a move to the clear point before changing tools and ran the drill through the brand new cabinet. ATC will get you every time! No real issue. I backed it with some graphite and welded it up. I then straightened it and washed it down for paint before calling it a day. I wonder if I can find a color that is close locally?

    I didn't get a photo of it straightened and washed. I'll upload a photo tomorrow before touching up the paint.

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  7. #7
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    This morning I installed all the plugs and the power switch into the cabinet. I went very fancy with etching primer as I couldn't find any paint that matched.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    After I got everything into the enclosure I started testing and I was losing steps... about 20 to 25 in 360 degrees (14400 steps). Argh! I was always spot on when I was testing. It didn't matter fast or slow. I thought the stepper was possibly slipping so I pulled the indexer apart because I had over driven it last night trying to squeeze more speed. My business partner stopped by and suggest I grease it... spent a bunch of time fitting a new zerk and getting it pumped full of grease. Still losing steps. Finally re-assembled everything to verify it still worked on the original control. Clearly something changed when I put it in the box. I started by hooking a cord up directly, bypassing the plug (and it's filtering caps). Spot on so I chopped out the caps... but still no luck. Then it dawned on me that the amphanol 97 connector was never grounded when I was testing. So I bonded the DC negative off the capacitor to the chassis. WOW! problem solved. Hours of work for 3 inches of wire!

    It's really a good reminder to bond the negative on linear power supplies. I should have know better... code requires it on dc systems powered off three phase... why would single phase be any different.

    I was wishing I had encoders. Steppers drive me nuts sometimes.

    I shot a quick video with my cell phone if you want to see it run. Enjoy.
    YouTube Video:
    Click here to view on youtube

  9. #9
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Really nice work.

    I did some indexer in the past with steppers too.

    Could you post a picture of the indexer with the stepper.

    Jeff

  10. #10
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by ostie01 View Post
    Could you post a picture of the indexer with the stepper.
    I didn't take any photos when I had the stepper removed. Best I have on my phone. The stepper is under the finned cover.

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  11. #11
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Is it direct drive or you put some kind of gear box.

    Direct drive will have a resolution of 0.18 deg. or 10min 48 sec.

    Jeff

  12. #12
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by ostie01 View Post
    Is it direct drive or you put some kind of gear box.
    Direct drive will have a resolution of 0.18 deg. or 10min 48 sec.
    It has a 72 tooth gear and worm... 72:1 ratio... so 200 steps * 72 = 14400 steps. The indexer driver supports Variable Resolution Mode which allows for positioning at a resolution of 1/100 of a step without compromising speed by whole stepping when feasible. I'm currently using absolute positioning.

    In Variable Resolution mode, the position specifies ± 8,388,607.99 Full steps with 0.01 step size resolution (20,000 pulses/rev). If:
    position = 200.00 the shaft spins 1 revolution.
    Here's a link to the manual if you want more details.
    http://www.ahs-antriebstechnik.de/pd...ves/MA6420.pdf

  13. #13
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by forhire View Post
    It has a 72 tooth gear and worm... 72:1 ratio... so 200 steps * 72 = 14400 steps. The indexer driver supports Variable Resolution Mode which allows for positioning at a resolution of 1/100 of a step without compromising speed by whole stepping when feasible. I'm currently using absolute positioning.



    Here's a link to the manual if you want more details.
    http://www.ahs-antriebstechnik.de/pd...ves/MA6420.pdf

    Glad to know that, so you'll get 0.18/72= very, very good

    Jeff

  14. #14
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by ostie01 View Post
    Glad to know that, so you'll get 0.18/72= very, very good
    0.18/72=0.0025 is good. With 1/100 micro-stepping it's even better...0.18/100/72=0.000025 which I'd call very, very good. Not sure if 1/100 micro-stepping is reality but in any case the resolution is darn good. Being able to enter my steps in 1/100 value such as 154.84 is more accurate than rounding to the full step. Also, on my old control I had to enter the degrees and minutes and loop through it which carried any rounding error forward compounding it (1439.64 seconds by the end), which caused my last move to be about a third of a degree off.

    In python I changed my order of operations to minimize the impact of rounding and prevent carrying the error forward.
    def calculateNextTarget(numberOfDivisions, completedDivisions):
    return stepsPerRevolution * float(completedDivisions) / float(numberOfDivisions)
    For example, 14400 steps total, division count or position, and 93 divisions total (for my gear in this example).
    First step:
    14400*1/93=154.8387096774194
    Last step:
    14400*92/93=14245.16129032258

    I then round to two decimal places so it becomes...
    First step:
    14400*1/93=154.84
    Last step:
    14400*92/93=14245.16

    And if you subtract the last position from the total steps you'll see they are the same, 14400-14245.16=154.84. Sure beats losing 15.48 seconds every step like what was happening with the old controller.

  15. #15
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by forhire View Post
    And if you subtract the last position from the total steps you'll see they are the same, 14400-14245.16=154.84. Sure beats losing 15.48 seconds every step like what was happening with the old controller.

    So that's why leap year exist

    Jeff

  16. #16
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Started my dog driver tonight. This has been on my todo list for a long time. It will screw onto the nose of the indexer which is 2-3/16 10 tpi. It will have a slot and set screw to retain the dog. Basic drive plate. The material is 6" aluminum round bar out of the scrap bin. I just had enough to squeak my 1.375 desired length out of it with a bit to spare. The OD and ID are done. I still need to thread it. I'll thread it tomorrow because insert on the bar was chipped... and I only had right hand inserts on hand. The new inserts should arrive in the morning. I'm hoping aluminum will hold up for this application... if not I have some 5" HR... but this scrap was about the right size without any fuss.

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  17. #17
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Slowly making progress. Every time the indexer is turned on or off it consistently shifts 2 steps so early this morning I wrote and tested a simple jog function to allow the indexer to be jogged into zero prior to setting the divisions. I was going to hook up the jog buttons but doing it in software was easier. Tonight when I finally made it back to the shop I quickly finished the threads. I man handled the indexer into the lathe to test the fit. I then flipped it and faced it. Turned out good. I then mocked it up on the mill so I could test my dogs... and it looks like I need to make a dog as all my dogs are either way too big... or way too small. Argh!

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    Last edited by forhire; 08-21-2015 at 02:45 AM.

  18. #18
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    After giving this a bunch of thought I decided to make a standard H style drive arm. This is what would normally come with a dividing head a and allows the dog to be carefully adjusted. Not normally required for a blanking operation but needed to re-work/re-align something. I modified my Hardinge G9 5C dead center. It had been kissed at some point... and had a slight burr. So I won't feel too guilty. These Hardinge as 0.570" which is just over 9/16" and I planned on using a 9/16" reamer. So I ground it down a little. I also ground a weldon flat so the set screw can get a flat bite. I milled the part from mild steel and drilled and tapped for 5/16-18 screws. I oped for two sets of screws to it can accommodate multiple diameters easily. Hopefully I can get the dog sorted tomorrow and actually start cutting this gear!

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  19. #19
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Do you stop and watch TV sometime

    You're a very productive guy, nice work again.

    Jeff

  20. #20
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    I missed the YouTube video earlier in post#8, and just saw it. Very cool ... lots of really neat photos and information in this thread. The last picture of post #17 was my first introduction to an expanding mandrel. Thanks for taking the time to share and post your projects. I always learn something.

  21. #21
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Quote Originally Posted by ostie01 View Post
    Do you stop and watch TV sometime

    You're a very productive guy, nice work again.
    Thanks. I try to work on my projects between paying work... sometimes this means my stuff drags on forever. I'm pushing hard to finish all the bits required for this project because my Lagun mill is still tore apart awaiting a new back gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by el bob View Post
    I missed the YouTube video earlier in post#8, and just saw it. Very cool ... lots of really neat photos and information in this thread. The last picture of post #17 was my first introduction to an expanding mandrel. Thanks for taking the time to share and post your projects. I always learn something.
    Thanks. I ordered this one off ebay. I actually ordered it twice... as the first one escaped the usps flat rate box. Left a nice hole. I ended up paying $25 more for the second one... but it did arrive. It came with two expanding sleeves and between the two will handle bores between 1.5" and 2". This bore is 42mm (1.65"). I thought about just turning a mandrel but I figured the expanding mandrel would likely prove more concentric. We'll see.

    I've been running parts on the cnc lathe that take about 4.5 minutes apiece... I can't venture far... so I used the time to mill out a dog. I then cut off the excess with the abrasive saw. Milled out a set of soft jaws. I then faced the second side and ran the chamfer. I still need to machine the pocket for the tang... but I ran out of time tonight. I had planned to only work until I finished the lathe op I was running. After I change over the lathe in the morning... I'll finish the dog. I think finshing this dog is the only thing preventing me from making my gear... finally. But it's time to take off my boots and watch some TV.

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  22. #22
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Milled a slot for the tang. Milled the tang. Brazed the tang into place. Cleaned up the braze over run on the mill and trued up the tang after welding. Tapped the set screw on the bottom. The color change looks pretty neat. Think of me the next time you pass a box of assorted lathe dogs at the swap meet and figure the guy is asking too much.

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  23. #23
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Here's the dog in place on the indexer. Looks pretty good.

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  24. #24
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    Tonight I trammed in the indexer and tailstock. I center drilled a length of chromed rod which really helped get everything lined up. I then pressed the aluminum gear blank onto the expanding mandrel using the arbor press. Nothing crazy but tight enough to keep it in place. I then took light pass to make sure the divisions came out correctly and that the module 2.0 was the correct pitch. It looked good so I went ahead and cut the gear. Thank goodness for a power feed, 93 divisions takes a while. It turned out nice.

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  25. #25
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    Re: Haas Model 5C Indexer converted to stepper indexer driver

    This morning I fitted the aluminum blank and it looked pretty good so I went ahead and setup the cast iron blank for the real gear. Cast iron machines so easy... it's almost therapeutic. I did pull out my patented half a bucket splash guard to collect the cast iron chips/dust... otherwise it would get into the ways and give me grief. If it ever has the chance to rust it will plug everything up real bad... so I prefer to collect it. Once the gear was done I put it on the lathe and smoothed it out. I then pressed it into the bearing and gave it a spin. Yeah. It works great.

    Getting it into gear takes a little patience though. The pinion gear has rounded teeth to help it engage but the new gear doesn't. Anyone have any ideas how I might round off the teeth on the bull gear like the pinion?

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