Welding on a gun barrel
RSS | Subscribe | Contact Us | Advertise | About Us
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    731

    Welding on a gun barrel

    Hello all,

    I recently got a call from a gun dealer who wanted to know if I could weld on gun metal. More specifically he asked if I could do Chromemoly or high carbon steel. I thought it was a bike enthusiast at first.

    So when we talked it turns out that he needs to modify a gun barrel by filling in an indent for a pin that locates the barrel in position. It is going to be adapted to another application and the original hole needs to be filled in and turned down, then a new one will be machined.

    I have never welded gun metal formally and would like to know what the correct procedure might be and what type of filler metal is best suited. I was doing some initial research on line and found a site that talked about using a certain type of silicone bronze rod for gun metal.

    Any thoughts on this? Aside from some pre-heat, easing off of the pedal as I break the arc to avoid the dimple, what should I take into account? Preheat, type of filler rod, procedure?

    The only time I welded on gun metal was on an old .30 cal carbine that had developed a split in the slide rail from a hot reload. I TIGed it and have had no problems with it since. I used regular mild steel filler rod for the job. That was a by the seat of my pants repair.

    Any help is appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Tony

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    1,279

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    you would be better off taping the pin hole and putting in a flush screw..

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    long island, ny
    Posts
    132

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    silver brazing is most id do. welding can produce a lot of heat, almost too much sometimes.

    theres a big difference between a gun manufacturer using a automated welders (where vairables such as heat, amps and all that is greatly controlled in a stable enviornment) and a person doing it.

    ask about tolerances. wouldnt wanna machine a new barrel out and find out something is comprimised.
    the grand ol' opry aint so grand anymore

    miller maxstar 150s
    working on an oxy/acet set up

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Canada with mosquitoes.
    Posts
    245

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    All been covered here

    http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=52348

    Vinnie

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    16,011

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
    Beat me too it. Keep this in mind, will your liability insurance cover this? ( You do have insurance right?) barrels of firearms are subjected to enormous pressures and barrel design uses some unique alloys. As mentioned above there's always the possibility someone will load a hot load in the gun. Can you sit in court and explain to the jury why you got your information online to do a weld of this sort while the grieving widdow of 3 sits there bawling, or the user missing an eye, and hand, faces the jury? At that point it won't matter if the load was hot or not, you didn't know the manufacturers requirements to do this ( the mfg will say they won't recomend doing this) and you'll get nailed to a cross.

    Firearms are tested with proof rounds at the factory. These rounds exceed the design perameters of the cartridge by a specified amount. Then the guns are inspected for issues before being sold. I doubt your gunsmith has the facilities or correct information to do this properly. I'd strongly suggest you decline and walk away.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    161

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Totally a bad idea. This "gun dealer" is going to get someone killed. this type of work should only be done by an accomplished gunsmith if at all.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    318

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Get out your ten foot pole and push this job away from you. Seriously.
    Two turn tables and a microphone.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hellinois
    Posts
    4,785

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    And if you do decide to do this sort of work continuously in the future, I believe you too must become a dealer. If the firearm is in your possesion, it must be logged in and out as gunsmith work. If the other dealer logs it in and BATFE comes to do an inspection and the gun is missing.......OUCH!
    "Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749
    "SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55
    "I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding
    "Stick-man"

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Austin TX
    Posts
    576

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    I wouldn't hesitate to do the job if you feel comfortable with it. I have migged and tigged quite a few guns (also riveted some of them) and haven't had a problem with anything. Use common sense and you'll be ok. It doesn't sound to me like you are welding in the "chamber" area, so pressures will bleed quickly and normal steel filler or even stainless will work in a small area that will only be a tiny part of the new threaded portion. I keep seeing the comments from others telling people that they shouldn't repair car frames etc because they haven't done that exact thing before and I am reminded that each and every one of us learned a lot of what we know from trial and error. Common sense is improtant.
    Miller Syncrowave 350
    Millermatic 252/ 30A spoolgun
    Miller Bobcat 225g w/ 3545 spoolgun
    Lincoln PowerArc4000
    Lincoln 175 Mig
    Lincoln 135 Mig
    Everlast 250EX Tig
    Century ac/dc 230 amp stick
    Victor O/A
    Hypertherm 1000 plasma

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    731

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Hi everyone and thanks for your opinions and suggestions. The general drift seems to be to stay away from it for liability reasons. This angle never occurred to me as part of the reality of modern day life.

    If welding on a barrel or receiver is not an accepted practice then my instinct would agree with the view of refusing the job. However, in legal terms what if I had the dealer in question sign a waiver, excusing me from liability. Would that make any difference?

    It is possible that I am not dealing with a dealer per se, but a gun enthusiast that is building a hybrid gun (rifle, etc.) and needs someone to do the welding. He said that he will have the sample barrel by next week so I can come by and check it out so I can see first hand what the job is. In fact he told me he welds but is not setup to TIG so needs someone to help him out with it.

    Anyway, does the idea of a waiver of liability make any difference in the mix of things if I have him sign one that basically says that he understands that there may be liability issues and that he is assuming all liability and releasing me of any responsibility. In other words that it is at his own risk.

    Any thoughts on this approach?

    That aside and from a technical standpoint, regular mild steel rod, stainless rod (308)? I have a handful of TIGTECTIC TIG rod from Eutectic Castolin that is recommended (and I have used) for high alloy steel welding or steel to stainless or where you are welding an unknown type of stainless). Would this stuff do the trick?

    Thanks for your thoughts,

    Tony

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Phoenix
    Posts
    731

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    I forgot to reply to the idea of silver brazing it. Is the thinking here that the temperatures won't reach fusion temps? Isn't this something akin to welding on cast iron where the idea behind using nickel rod (for example) is to run a small bead, peen and not let the metal get hotter than your hand can stand?

    In other words, the fusion temperature will get diffused quickly so the entire weld zone never reaches critical temperatures. Would this be the procedure to use for gun metal? In this sense wouldn't brazing temperatures allow the part's heat affected zone to reach unwanted temperatures?

    Or just weld away till the indent in question is filled up in one shot? I had thought of heating the metal up prior to welding to around 200 degrees or so prior to welding on it. Again, this is a matter of procedure. I hadn't planned on doing the job unless I felt that I had the correct procedure down pat. That's why I am turning to my peers to get more experienced perspectives on the subject.

    I appreciate the liability issue. On the technical side, sooner or later one of us may have to weld on a gun for whatever combination of reasons that may present themselves. It would be good to know what the right practices are so that we put the odds in favor of a good weld and structural integrity.

    Thanks again,

    Tony

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    16,011

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Unfortunately in todays legal climate a waiver isn't worth the paper it's printed on often in court. In some ways it can be a detriment as it shows you knew in advance there might be issues and "carelessly" disregarded them and went ahead anyways. Unfortunately most jurys vote their feelings, not the facts. Put a crying mother, wife or child in the court or a "victim" who's maimed and appears to be in pain, and the jury will open your wallet and the insurance companies and hand out the money. Any excuse the insurance company can use to deny coverage and cut their losses dumping it all on you, they will.

    I've been dragged into court over things that had absolutely nothing to do with what I did and "lost" as my insurance company chose to settle and pay rather than fight. It was "cheaper". Today it's always someone elses fault. The victim will dump it on the gunsmith, and the gunsmith will say its your fault because he paid you to do it right. The lawyers will go after anyone they even think might be involved, original gun manufacturer, ammo manucturer, reloading component manufacturers, gun range, you, the gunsmith, hospital, EMS, attending doctor... and I bet they can add six or seven more to the list easy with a bit of thought. It's less about who's "at fault" and more about how much cash they can grab.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    North of Philly
    Posts
    16,011

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by DougAustinTX View Post
    I keep seeing the comments from others telling people that they shouldn't repair car frames etc because they haven't done that exact thing before and I am reminded that each and every one of us learned a lot of what we know from trial and error. Common sense is improtant.
    Common sense says stay away from critical welds if you don't know how to do them. Things like car frames and suspension components are poor areas for "try and fail" learning. Add to that the number of people here who really can't "weld" no matter what they think. Sticking metal together is not welding.

    Can these sorts of things be done? In many cases the answer is yes with proper training and instruction. How do you get that knolege? It's listed in the engineers prints on how he's spec'd the welds. It's thru "school" whether thats a formal training on the specific area, or thru an "aprenticeship" with someone who has that knolege. Do you know how to check and test the welds and do you have the proper tools to do so? In many cases critical welds 100% are tested and checked. Xray, UT, magnaflux etc... I've seen "bad" welds on high strength steel that looked "good", but under magnaflux the steel looked like a shattered windshied beause of all the tiny cracks because the "welder" had no idea what the proper techniques were to do it right. Wrong alloy rod, wet damp conditions, no preheat, too much heat, and then it was cooled too quickly. This was on an item that if it failed, it would have failed catosrophicly and chances of death and injury were high. In this case they lucked out and an inspection of the equipment "failed" because they didn't have the proper documentation on the work.

    More and more things are using special alloys, heat treated or tempered steels to save weight and money. This makes doing it right the first time more important than ever. What worked 20 years ago won't necessarily work today.
    .



    No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

    Ronald Reagan

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    161

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by therrera View Post
    It is possible that I am not dealing with a dealer per se, but a gun enthusiast that is building a hybrid gun (rifle, etc.) and needs someone to do the welding. He said that he will have the sample barrel by next week so I can come by and check it out so I can see first hand what the job is. In fact he told me he welds but is not setup to TIG so needs someone to help him out with it.
    Interesting. A gun enthusiast wants to manufacture a gun? You are looking at problems with ATF. Unless he is building a replica of an antique firearm (like black powder kit) you need to be licensed to manufacture firearms. I suspect he is trying to build a de-milled machine gun or something similar. Again, there are special licenses and taxes that need to be obtained first.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    318

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    If you do weld on a gun part that is going to be reblued, the weld area will look red in comparison to the rest of the gun. Nothing you can do about it.
    Two turn tables and a microphone.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    laguna niguel, Ca USA
    Posts
    1,005

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by DougAustinTX View Post
    I wouldn't hesitate to do the job if you feel comfortable with it. I have migged and tigged quite a few guns (also riveted some of them) and haven't had a problem with anything. Use common sense and you'll be ok. It doesn't sound to me like you are welding in the "chamber" area, so pressures will bleed quickly and normal steel filler or even stainless will work in a small area that will only be a tiny part of the new threaded portion. I keep seeing the comments from others telling people that they shouldn't repair car frames etc because they haven't done that exact thing before and I am reminded that each and every one of us learned a lot of what we know from trial and error. Common sense is improtant.
    there is a autobody welding Certification for working on frames and panels and there is a reason for this Welding Certification when it got imposed about 84% of the currently working autobody guys that had been doing it for years FAILED the cert
    Smith Gas Mixer AR/H
    Tig is my Kung Fu
    Throwing down dimes and weaving about
    Welding Engineer
    Instagram http://instagram.com/weldor_wes

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Martinez CA
    Posts
    1,748

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Hey RED guns are purty.........



    Miller Dynasty 350
    Twenty Six Hammers
    Two English Springer Dogs
    Three Crow Bars


    Big Rock

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Martinez CA
    Posts
    1,748

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Welded gun parts for a local gunsmith and we have had good results with 308L stainless......Stainless flows well on some of the weird gun metals......



    Miller Dynasty 350
    Twenty Six Hammers
    Two English Springer Dogs
    Three Crow Bars


    Big Rock

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    laguna niguel, Ca USA
    Posts
    1,005

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    personally i would not touch what he wants done simply due to liability and legal issues
    only way i would if i was on the gunsmiths issurance and payroll
    Smith Gas Mixer AR/H
    Tig is my Kung Fu
    Throwing down dimes and weaving about
    Welding Engineer
    Instagram http://instagram.com/weldor_wes

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    318

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by B_C View Post
    Welded gun parts for a local gunsmith and we have had good results with 308L stainless......Stainless flows well on some of the weird gun metals......
    Except it wont take a blueing. I learned that the hard way about 30 years ago.
    Two turn tables and a microphone.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    351

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    just another vote on the liability of working on a weapon. Remember that the weapon is designed to contain and direct an explosion. If you have a lawyer, maybe have him draw up a release of liability form.

    on edit: the comment about the ATF is spot on. I would turn this one down.
    Last edited by tenpins; 04-24-2011 at 03:56 PM.
    Weldanpower 225 G7
    Ironworkers Local #24

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Caddo Mills TX
    Posts
    932

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    tig GTAW your muzzle brakes and compensators on...just 3 seconds of pinpoint intense heat then air quench.........otherwise im blowing the brakes off during intense combat . or just shooting a lot of hot loads
    Lincoln SP-135 Plus, Solar 2-175 wire feed welder, Iwata LPH 400

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Martinez CA
    Posts
    1,748

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    From what I have seen most of the gun smith guys weld their own junk......When i build up a worn area with tig it's typically on a gun that you can't buy parts for any more and you have to make it work.....Mainly old shot guns that the owner might want to shoot now and then....



    Miller Dynasty 350
    Twenty Six Hammers
    Two English Springer Dogs
    Three Crow Bars


    Big Rock

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Martinez CA
    Posts
    1,748

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Pangea View Post
    Except it wont take a blueing. I learned that the hard way about 30 years ago.
    yeah but the parts I build up are inside the workings of the gun anyway....don't show



    Miller Dynasty 350
    Twenty Six Hammers
    Two English Springer Dogs
    Three Crow Bars


    Big Rock

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    62

    Re: Welding on a gun barrel

    Quote Originally Posted by hp246 View Post
    Interesting. A gun enthusiast wants to manufacture a gun? You are looking at problems with ATF. Unless he is building a replica of an antique firearm (like black powder kit) you need to be licensed to manufacture firearms. I suspect he is trying to build a de-milled machine gun or something similar. Again, there are special licenses and taxes that need to be obtained first.
    To me it seems he is working on an AK variant. Like putting Chi-com 19 mm barrel on a 23 mm eastern block trunion. If you are just welding a barrel pin I don't think there is a manufacturing issue. This is common practise with scarce parts. Only when the parts are assembled or if certain full auto parts are present along with a non full auto firearm of the same type without the proper license.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
RSS | Home | Penton Media | Contact Us | Subscribe | For Advertisers | Terms of Use | Privacy Statement