AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat
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  1. #1
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    AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    I'm in the jungle of Venezuela and welding on a friend's metal boat. It's a canoe shaped boat make with an angle stock frame and then probably 3mm steel sheet bent over the frame and welded to the frame. The boat was neglected and in some spots about half the thickness of the steel has rusted in big flaky sheets and has come off. In the remaining metal where it's thin and also in some places where it's still full thickness the rust has eaten through in cone shaped pockets making small holes that I can usually weld around the edge some and then come across the pocket of rust to the other side and back to the center and fill it in with one quick weld. In some spots there's longer scratches which rusted deep so I'm needing to weld a bead which is a number of inches in length. In both types of welds I'm geting strange dimples or pockets and the bead is also thinner and flatter where I end the bead even if when I get to the end of the weld I do a few circles to fill in and finish the bead. I'm not a professional welder but I have some experience stick welding, mostly AC welding in the jungle with poorly stored rods but also some experience with a nice three phase 440v DC stick welder, boy that was a beauty. That machine made me look like a good welder, but it was the machine.

    Anyway, I'm using a Lincoln AC welder with 1/8" E6011 rods with the welder set on 75 amps, sometimes going down to 60 or up to 90 amps as the work warrants.

    I'd love it if people could tell me what I'm doing wrong. Be brutal. I want to know.
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  2. #2
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Just out of curiousity, what in the water there will eat you if one of those holes busts out worse?

  3. #3
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    can you get 3/32 6011? I would turn my heat down to 50-60 and run small circles or a quick whip technique. I am so accustomed to the circle method on sheet it is almost second nature to start running with it.
    Last edited by Scott Young; 05-19-2011 at 12:42 AM.

  4. #4
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Hi!

    I think you just need to keep the weld zone clean in between welds. When it doesn't work, grind it all out and try again. You will get there with patience and perseverance.

    That machine works much better on thick metal than on thin sheet! That job would be so much easier with an oxyacetylene torch!
    Good luck.
    Have fun canoeing!
    City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;
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  5. #5
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by WelderBC View Post
    Just out of curiousity, what in the water there will eat you if one of those holes busts out worse?
    There are anacondas and alligators but attacks are rare. The pirana are vegetarians in this part of the Amazon. Probably the worst threats are the stingrays which really hurt and cause a lot of necrosis if you get stung, and there are electric eels which are painful and scary but not dangerous.

    The worst part is I travel places where there are no villages for a long distance, no communication, no tow trucks or 911 call boxes. Getting stuck some where would be a real pain. And if the boat sunk quickly before you got to shore you'd lose the boat and motor and all the goods you're traveling with. It would suck.

    Here's where I'm at http://gregihnen.me. No spam and I'm not selling anything, it's just a site about my life in the jungle.

  6. #6
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Young View Post
    can you get 3/32 6011? I would turn my heat down to 50-60 and run small circles or a quick whip technique. I am so accustomed to the circle method on sheet it is almost second nature to start running with it.
    Thanks so much! I'm going to do that. I do need to get smaller rods. I'm going to order those now.

    Greg

  7. #7
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by tanglediver View Post
    Hi!

    I think you just need to keep the weld zone clean in between welds. When it doesn't work, grind it all out and try again. You will get there with patience and perseverance.

    That machine works much better on thick metal than on thin sheet! That job would be so much easier with an oxyacetylene torch!
    Good luck.
    Have fun canoeing!
    Thanks! That's very interesting. So with the torch would you weld or braze? What would be the filler metal, flux and technique. We had a torch but we ran out of gas and never got the bottles filled, but we still have them. Down here I think they last forever. You don't have to have them hydro'ed.

    Greg

  8. #8
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Since you have been using 6011 rod, I assume the boat is made of steel. Brazing or welding will work with the torch. With brazing the joint has got to be cleaned of all paint and rust, then flux applied, then the brazing rod melted into the joint. With welding, the joint still needs to be clean, but flux is not necessary, just compatible filler metal such as RG45 or R60, which work well on most ordinary steels.
    Cleaning a weld joint in preparation is always a good idea, it eliminates many hazards to accomplishing a sound weld.

    Heck, out in the field, a few packages of JB Weld could come in handy on a boat trip!

    http://jbweld.net/index.php
    City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;
    "Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."
    Job 28:1,2

    Lincoln, Miller, Victor & NKJV Bible

    Danny

  9. #9
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by tanglediver View Post
    Since you have been using 6011 rod, I assume the boat is made of steel. Brazing or welding will work with the torch. With brazing the joint has got to be cleaned of all paint and rust, then flux applied, then the brazing rod melted into the joint. With welding, the joint still needs to be clean, but flux is not necessary, just compatible filler metal such as RG45 or R60, which work well on most ordinary steels.
    Cleaning a weld joint in preparation is always a good idea, it eliminates many hazards to accomplishing a sound weld.

    Heck, out in the field, a few packages of JB Weld could come in handy on a boat trip!

    http://jbweld.net/index.php
    Thanks for the information about doing the repairs with a torch!

    I'm always traveling with Indians and they know all kinds of things to patch boats with. We've limped home with boats patched with clay, tree sap, a banana, and bits of cloth stuffed in or covering holes.

  10. #10
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Is the water salt water?

    If it is, you can stop the corrosion by using some zincs on the boat hull.

    The thing wrong with using E6011 is that it is a deep penetration rod.
    It would be better to use a medium penetration rod like E6013 on that thin metal.
    Put some kind of paint on that metal too. Anything.
    Last edited by Donald Branscom; 05-19-2011 at 01:56 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Branscom View Post
    Is the water salt water?

    If it is, you can stop the corrosion by using some zincs on the boat hull.

    The thing wrong with using E6011 is that it is a deep penetration rod.
    It would be better to use a medium penetration rod like E6013 on that thin metal.
    Put some kind of paint on that metal too. Anything.
    No, it's fresh water and very very soft (no minerals) but the Indians don't take care of the boat and they leave a lot of mess in it, stuff which is somewhat corrosive. It rusted from the inside out.

    Greg

  12. #12
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    (1 inch = 25.4 mm) So if your boat metal is 3mm (or 0.118 thick) then it is only slightly less than 1/8" thick (1/8 = 0.125) .

    1/8" thick metal should be easily doable with an AC arc welder although I would use 6013 in a 3/32" diameter. If you have a a 230 volt welder or better then I would also consider 7014 in 3/32" diameter. 7014 is very easy rod to use but it likes a few more amps than 6013 will require so 7014 is not a god rod choice if you have only an itty bitty welder. 6011 is great for rusty metal, but it is a deep penetrating rod. 6013 or 7014 will not penetrate as deep which helps you on your thin metal. You will have to clean metal before welding with either 6013 or 7014. If you still burn through with 3/32 then try some 5/64 6013. Unfortunately, 5/64 is not a real common rod size, but it is available in 6013, but actually costs more than 3/32 - you sorta have to pay a premium for this oddball size. Regardless 5/64 can sometimes be handy and is sometimes worth the extra cost when trying to weld thin metal with an arc welder. (Note: I realize that they also make 1/16" diameter rods, but I hate this size as they are so darned flimsy - like trying to weld with a spaghetti noodle. If I have to use 1/16" diameter rods then I usually cut the rods in half to help with flimsiness).

    Since you are literally in the remote areas of the world where it may be hard/expensive to get acetlyene gas then definitely consider making yourself a "Twin Carbon Arc Torch" which will be powered from your AC arc welder. Plans are available for making a Twin Carbon Arc torch for nearly free from the internet or you can buy a used factory torch for low cost from the internet. With a Twin Carbon Arc torch you can braze metal, heat metal for bending, silver solder, release frozen nuts with or without flame, flame fill weld, etc. (note: Twin Carbon Arc will NOT cut metal and should not to be confused with Carbon Gouging which is a totally different process that does cut metal). Twin Carbon Arc can actually burn up to 1000 degrees hotter then oxy/acetylene if desired and would be perfect for you in your remote area since no gas is needed. Only carbon rods are required which cost like $10 and last a very long time - heck you can salvage the rods from flashlight batteries if real desperate.

    I use one of these myself - too cheap to buy acetlyene for my infrequent needs for extreme heat. I can easily produce a flame silimlar to oxy/acetlyene with a rosebud tip. Old time craftsmen could do even better and control the flame so tightly with one of these that they could literally use it like a poor mans tig welder minus the shieding gas of course.

    Here are a couple Youtube videos of Twin Carbon Arc. (Statements made during video are not 100% accurate but useful for pictures anyway - wear your helmet and cover all exposed skin if you use one of these as any exposed skin will severely sunburn).





    How are 2 links on how to make a Twin Carbon arc torch:

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Make...volt-stick-we/

    http://books.google.com/books?id=VCc...%20arc&f=false


    Admittingly a crude tool, but they are a useful tool and even more useful in remote regions like where you are and very cheap to run to boot.
    Last edited by rankrank1; 05-19-2011 at 11:15 PM.

  13. #13
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by rankrank1 View Post
    (1 inch = 25.4 mm) So if your boat metal is 3mm (or 0.118 thick) then it is only slightly less than 1/8" thick (1/8 = 0.125) .

    1/8" thick metal should be easily doable with an AC arc welder although I would use 6013 in a 3/32" diameter. If you have a a 230 volt welder or better then I would also consider 7014 in 3/32" diameter. 7014 is very easy rod to use but it likes a few more amps than 6013 will require so 7014 is not a god rod choice if you have only an itty bitty welder. 6011 is great for rusty metal, but it is a deep penetrating rod. 6013 or 7014 will not penetrate as deep which helps you on your thin metal. You will have to clean metal before welding with either 6013 or 7014. If you still burn through with 3/32 then try some 5/64 6013. Unfortunately, 5/64 is not a real common rod size, but it is available in 6013, but actually costs more than 3/32 - you sorta have to pay a premium for this oddball size. Regardless 5/64 can sometimes be handy and is sometimes worth the extra cost when trying to weld thin metal with an arc welder. (Note: I realize that they also make 1/16" diameter rods, but I hate this size as they are so darned flimsy - like trying to weld with a spaghetti noodle. If I have to use 1/16" diameter rods then I usually cut the rods in half to help with flimsiness).

    Since you are literally in the remote areas of the world where it may be hard/expensive to get acetlyene gas then definitely consider making yourself a "Twin Carbon Arc Torch" which will be powered from your AC arc welder. Plans are available for making a Twin Carbon Arc torch for nearly free from the internet or you can buy a used factory torch for low cost from the internet. With a Twin Carbon Arc torch you can braze metal, heat metal for bending, silver solder, release frozen nuts with or without flame, flame fill weld, etc. (note: Twin Carbon Arc will NOT cut metal and should not to be confused with Carbon Gouging which is a totally different process that does cut metal). Twin Carbon Arc can actually burn up to 1000 degrees hotter then oxy/acetylene if desired and would be perfect for you in your remote area since no gas is needed. Only carbon rods are required which cost like $10 and last a very long time - heck you can salvage the rods from flashlight batteries if real desperate.

    I use one of these myself - too cheap to buy acetlyene for my infrequent needs for extreme heat. I can easily produce a flame silimlar to oxy/acetlyene with a rosebud tip. Old time craftsmen could do even better and control the flame so tightly with one of these that they could literally use it like a poor mans tig welder minus the shieding gas of course.

    Here are a couple Youtube videos of Twin Carbon Arc. (Statements made during video are not 100% accurate but useful for pictures anyway - wear your helmet and cover all exposed skin if you use one of these as any exposed skin will severely sunburn).





    How are 2 links on how to make a Twin Carbon arc torch:

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Make...volt-stick-we/

    http://books.google.com/books?id=VCc...%20arc&f=false


    Admittingly a crude tool, but they are a useful tool and even more useful in remote regions like where you are and very cheap to run to boot.
    Wow! Thanks for all the great info! Thanks everyone who has replied too.

    The welder is 220 only and I think it goes out to 220 amps.

    So you're saying even though the 7014 rods want more current that extra current won't be as destructive with the 7014 rods as it would be with the 6011 rods? Interesting.

    I'm definitely going to look at and consider that twin arc tool! Crude is good down here. We do crude all the time. : - ) What I'm doing now (the way I'm fixing that boat) I'd consider crude.

    Thanks again!
    Greg

  14. #14
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Very impressive that you're a self made missionary and equally impressive how you have been able to say there as long as you have without any kind of financial or material support from churches or organizations. I've got a lot of respect for you and what your doing there including all of what you have had to learn in order to take care of the the power grid as well as the satellite internet and the wireless system and to learn how to do some basic welding.

    If anyone wanted to offer up some kind of help what would they have to do?

  15. #15
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by takoateli View Post
    Wow! Thanks for all the great info! Thanks everyone who has replied too.

    The welder is 220 only and I think it goes out to 220 amps.

    So you're saying even though the 7014 rods want more current that extra current won't be as destructive with the 7014 rods as it would be with the 6011 rods? Interesting.

    I'm definitely going to look at and consider that twin arc tool! Crude is good down here. We do crude all the time. : - ) What I'm doing now (the way I'm fixing that boat) I'd consider crude.

    Thanks again!
    Greg
    Well you have plenty of welder then to do almost anything you need and one that is especially useful in an environment where supplies are low like where you are. A welder like you have is also useful for metal cutting and piercing holes - stick some 6011 in the stinger and crank up the amps and use a sawing motion and you can cut metal metal and pierce holes for crude level fabrications. There are also specialty electrodes for cutting/champfering too but might not be available where you are. I have an uncle that swears he can cut thin sheet darn near to plasma quality by using a straight edge guide and 6011 in the stinger. I need to learn this trick from him myself.

    6011 arc characteristics are harsh and forceful for burning through rust/dirt or for digging deep penetration wise on really thick metal. That said some people prefer 6011 for welding even thin metal but the technique they use is different than when they normally use 6011 - on thin metal they whip in and out using the fast freezing properties of the rod before burn through takes place. That said 6011 is what is called a low depostition rod so it is not the best suited for filling holes like you are trying to do. It is best suited for digging deep into metal that is already there whether it be rusty or clean.

    6013 arc characteristics are generally considered to have light arc penetration quailities so arc better suited for thinner metals. Also, 6013 is a medium depostion rod so some some metal is being deposited from your welding rod into your weld ( these metal deposits are helpful for filling holes)

    7014 arc charectistics are light to medium penetration wise but the rod is probably the easist rod to run so much so that it is called "idoit rod". Being easier to run helps low skilled guys like me use it especially on AC power. Also 7014 is a high deposition rod so even more metal from your welding rod is being deposited with the weld. (again these metal depostis are helpful for filling holes).

    Generally speaking I think 3/32 diameter rods will work better for you regardless of which one you pick over the 1/8 that you are currently using. All 3 of these rods work well on AC power supply welder so all 3 are worth worth having around and they do not require special rod oven storage either. If you still have trouble with 3/32 then try some 5/64" diameter rods but you will likely only find these in 6013 and may not find them at all where you are. 1/16 diameter are more common than 5/64 but 1/16 diameters can be flimsy, try cutting them in half and using these if you keep burning through with the larger diameter 5/64 or 3/32 rods.

    Generally speaking you almost always want to use a rod smaller in diameter than the material you are trying to weld.
    (So remember your math when you pick your rod diameter selection: 1/16 = 4/64, 5/64 speaks for itself, and 3/32 = 6/64, and 1/8 = 8/64) and from there pick the rod characteristics that are most desirable to you based on application.
    Last edited by rankrank1; 05-21-2011 at 02:08 PM.

  16. #16
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    That is cool.I might have to make me a Twin carbon Arc torch to go with my lincoln.At the moment I don't have any acetylene either and wasn't planning on filling my tanks up here any time soon but could have used something like this to heat the bolts up on my grader blade to break them loose so I could turn my cutting edge over,I give up on it for now until I can get some heat on the nuts.I broke a 15/16" socket using a cheater on a breaker bar.
    D size batteries have carbon rods in them,6 volt batteries have longer rods in them.
    Last edited by dugndeep; 05-21-2011 at 02:34 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Big65mopar View Post
    Very impressive that you're a self made missionary and equally impressive how you have been able to say there as long as you have without any kind of financial or material support from churches or organizations. I've got a lot of respect for you and what your doing there including all of what you have had to learn in order to take care of the the power grid as well as the satellite internet and the wireless system and to learn how to do some basic welding.

    If anyone wanted to offer up some kind of help what would they have to do?
    Well that would depend on what kind of help you'd want to offer. My work is along the lines of community development. Here in Coshilowäteli we have an unfinished water project to easier access to clean water to the village. What we need is to lay some more hose in the ground and build places where the Indians can get water, wash clothes and bath.

    Other things I do gun repair for the Indians. Though even in this village the folks still have and know how to use and make bows and arrows most hunting is done with shotguns. I purchase parts in the US and repair their guns no charge.

    I also help remote villages with solar electric systems which provide a light in their house and a 6 volt battery charger which they use for charging small gel cell batteries which they use for night hunting (game animals and frogs) and fishing.

    I also help remote villages with trade goods (utilitarian items) which greatly improve their quality of life. We're talking about fishing hooks and line, cooking pots, knives, cloth for loin cloths, cloth for hammocks, machetes, axes, thread for tying their arrows, etc.

    All that I do out of pocket. If you wanted to assist with any of that I would start a page on my web site http://gregihnen.com and show where the money went and photos of the guys who receive it. The neat thing is that 100% of the donation would go directly to the Indians. I already have my own support. Any donations would go directly to the Indians and you could specify what you'd like it to be used for.

    Greg

  18. #18
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Excellent, I will talk with some friends and let them look through your webpage and see what happens.

  19. #19
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    I would also suggest some 1/16th 6013, harbor freight sells it in a 2lb box I think. works about 20-45 amps and really good for sheet metal... I just did some stick welding with that rod and it was real easy without burning through...
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  20. #20
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Big65mopar View Post
    Excellent, I will talk with some friends and let them look through your webpage and see what happens.
    Cool! I'll add a lot more info.

    In the past few months I've been changing the program I use for doing my website. I was using RapidWeaver, iWeb and Sandvox, and I finally discovered and settled on WordPress. I'm building the site back out now with Wordpress.

    Greg

  21. #21
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    The nice thing about the people I know is that they come from a broad range of disciplines and specialties most of which blend with the work your doing there and its possible that they would have contacts to help with cutting the cost of satellite and network equipment down amongst other things.

  22. #22
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    Re: AC Stick welding E6011 sheet metal boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Big65mopar View Post
    The nice thing about the people I know is that they come from a broad range of disciplines and specialties most of which blend with the work your doing there and its possible that they would have contacts to help with cutting the cost of satellite and network equipment down amongst other things.
    Cool! If they could bring the cost down, or even just offer expertise that would be cool too!

    Greg

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