Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% duty
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  1. #1
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    Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% duty

    But wait theirs more, that's just what I could fit in the title line.
    Anything worth doing is worth overdoing so here it is.

    I decided I would like to get an engine drive.
    But since no one can meet my extreme list of specifications for anywhere near the amount I am willing to pay then I will just have to DIY.
    Off the top of my head I would like to be able to do CC stick and tig, CV for mig (I do not have a wire feed rig right now so that might be later on) and battery charging 12 maybe up to 48 volts. Plus have the ability for more than one person be able to weld at one time. Have a high enough duty cycle at full power so I will get tired of welding before it over heats. Variable speed to save fuel when full power isn't needed.
    The 400 amps will only be the name plate amps on the alternators it might make less it might make more. If it were to make any where near 400 amps I would expect it to only on 12v CV for battery charging and start assist. With the thin air here I expect the engine to only be able to support around 300 amps of SMAW and maybe a little more amps with tig because of the low voltage tig tends to run at. If it can do more than 300 amps for smaw then great, I don't see how or where I would need it.

    I believe the best way to do this is just like the title says, start with a 22hp V-twin.
    Then to make the 400 amps butcher two SI-10 clones with stators wrapped for 200 amps. SI-10 and SI-12 are my favorite alternator to convert for "other" uses like this.
    To convert them I will take the built in 3 phase bridge rectifier and trio diodes out because I don't know what their voltages are rated at and since this is a welding application it could see 70 to 90 OCV and fry them. Then this is where it starts to get weird, convert the alternators stator windings from 3 wire wye to 4 wire wye for maximum current generation and run the wires to external rectifiers. Each alternator having its own set of rectifiers. That way the alternators will produce less heat internally and get more air flow through the windings.
    Each alternator will have its own welding plug and receptacles then I will just have to make a special combiner "2 into 1" cable to run both alternators to one stinger or tig torch. Each alternator will kind of be like its own little independent welding machine.

    For CC operation I am just going to use a single big rheostat to reduce the voltage from the 22hp motors battery and charging system down and feed it into the alternator rotors.
    The only problem I foresee is getting the amps down nice and low if I need to do certain low amp TIG stuff. Taking it down to single alternator mode should do this. Single alternator mode will set me up to do the 2 weldor thing.
    Since I will have single alternator mode that will allow me do the 2 weldor thing quite easily. To switch over to 2 weldor mode one alternator will retain use of the big large span rheostat and the second alternator will just have a simple dash bulb dimmer. I do not believe the simple dash bulb dimmer will allow for low amp tig that is why I am hunting for one fairly unique rheostat. In 2 weldor mode each weldor will only have the output of one alternator, so up 150 to 200 amps.

    For CV operation I am going to make a circuit reusing the OEM voltage regulators and no trio diodes. In this mode the alternators will not be self exciting like the OEM setup, my guess is that higher voltages (greater than 24v) being fed into the alternator OE style voltage regulator is what will cause it to fail, so CV will also depend on external power from the 22hp engines battery and magneto. All I will need to do is wire in a voltage divider potentiometer to the V-sense tab on the voltage regulator, this will trick the OEM style voltage regulator to making what ever voltage I want. Then to test it crank it up to say 50 or 60 volts and power some stuff. If the voltage regulator fries then go to napa and get 24v voltage regulators and hope they don't fry or find out where it does fry and not go past that point and start looking for some kind of voltage regulator that will let me run whatever voltage I want. But with external excitation power I am very sure this will work how I want it to. And no, I am not expecting to get 400 amps at 55 volts.

    To build the inductive choke for CC/CV I was going to gut some Microwave Oven Transformers (MOV) wrap them approximately 50 times with the biggest wire solid wire that I can fit in the MOV core. Parallel them as needed to handle possibly up to 400 amps. Solid wire is inductively much more efficient than stranded.
    I find around 50 turns in factory made machines and that 48 turn inductors works very well in my own machines. Welding inductors are very expensive, I can wrap my own so there is no point in spending big $ on this.

    To make a true CV system I am going to need a big or several big power supply or welding duty capacitors. 40,000 to 60,000uf should way more than plenty for a 3phase DC with low ripple voltage.

    Since all the CC and CV power will will use external excitation this may be too much for the little magneto on the engine. If running any of the settings starts to drain the battery then I will just install a 3rd small alternator that is all stock, nothing special to keep the battery charged and provide all the external welding alternator excitation power I could ever need. I expect the 22hp V-twin magneto to make 10 to 12 amps. With a 150 amp load on each alternator I am thinking each alternator will demand up to 6 to 8 amps, running full tilt may drain the battery and cause the 3rd alternator to be necessary.

    Variable speed will save fuel when I do smaller jobs.

    The only thing I wont have is AC or auxiliary 120VAC. Well I can fix that lack of 120VAC to some degree with one of my power inverters.

    I am not asking how to do this. I already know how, its only a matter of time, money and lots of wiring.

    Sounds easy right?

    And don't say "buy a cheap engine drive". The only "cheap engine drives" I would buy (Lincoln) appears to be AC only, top out at around 140 amps have a low duty cycle even at 125 amps and cost nearly $2000 and be useless for tig-ing steel. The miller has more amps, DC and a better duty cycle but is around $3,000. Yeah already ruled those out, way out. And they run at fixed 3600RPM so they will be very noisy and their fuel consumption will be no less than catastrophic.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Subscribed

  3. #3
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    My head hurts now...
    Ryan

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  4. #4
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    hope it works,

  5. #5
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    I should add that the projected start date is some time in august since I am not currently located in north America.

    For the CV side so far I have 100VDC 13,000uf electrolytic power supply capacitors, 4 of them. Normally you want a lot more capacitance to make good CV from a single phase 60hz source. I know it will work great for battery charging and I am betting on the high frequency 3 phase made DC not needing a lot of capacitance to smooth it out.
    For example in a 60hz single phase mig you want around 40,000uf to 70,000uf for GMAW. For FCAW you can go well over 100,000uf and it just gets smoother the more capacitance you run. If these are 6 pole alternators I believe they will run between 200 and 450hz so they will make really good DC.

    For the CC side I found a 12 amp 0 to 96 ohm rheostat. That should allow me to reduce the amps to well below anything useable for low amp DC tig welding.
    Last edited by mad welder 4; 05-11-2016 at 02:44 AM.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  6. #6
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    "convert the alternators stator windings from 3 wire wye to 4 wire wye"
    So you are going to rewind the stators ?
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  7. #7
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Not going to rewind the stator.
    All I have to do is gain access to where all 3 phases tie together and remove the insulation and install the neutral wire and rewrap the insulation.
    I know it works because I have done it before.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  8. #8
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Ok, read it a couple times and I think I'm up to speed mostly

    Should be very interesting
    Dave J.

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  9. #9
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    if you value your time at nothing then I could see it possibly being worth it, however if you ended up not liking the then you would get very little for resale.

  10. #10
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    I like homemade welders so I can't wait to see how this thing turns out. Might want to think about a custom controller that could use pulse width modulation to excite the alternators. You could have an open loop mode (doesn't look at the output voltage) for constant current and a closed loop mode (regulates output voltage) for constant voltage. It could also have "hot start" for stick welding so it gives full power to the rotors until the arc is struck then goes down to what ever the desired current is set to.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Make it 110% duty cycle, I dare you.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    To me a $5,000 machine is a waste of money.
    Wouldn't it just suck if I built something that welds as good if not better than a $5,500 to $9,000+ machine for around $1,500?
    I think my time is worth that difference.

    I use small 500uf to 1000uf electrolytic capacitors on a switch to aid starting in my 230 amp craftsman for use with the lowest OCV settings to boost OCV from around 50 to 55 volts up to 80 to 90 volts. The capacitors is a big help on restarts.

    To regulate CV I am going to try and use the OE alternator voltage regulators powered externally with 12v power from the 22hp engine and a voltage divider on the V-sense to trick the voltage regulator into making what ever voltage I want.

    PWM does not regulate CC very well for some reason. I am going to stick with rheostats since I know they work.

    I was found a hotrod magizine article from 2013 that shows an alternator with no electrical load causes a 3 hp load at 6,000 alternator RPMs and a 4.5 horsepower load at 12,000 alt RPM.
    So that engine will have the power to turn the alternators at that speed and make power.
    I won't get any advantage to turning the alternators faster than 9,000 to 10,000 rpm. The max speed on the engine is 4,000rpm so my over drive ratio I will be trying to get will be 1:2.2 maybe higher.
    So it will take around 8hp to turn both alternators at 10,000rpm and take around 14hp to generate 400 amps at 25 volts. That is 22hp .The goal is 300 amps for smaw and tig. Seems reasonable to me.
    Last edited by mad welder 4; 05-12-2016 at 12:27 AM.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  13. #13
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Doing some more digging and figuring I found that my plan to use the OE style voltage regulator to run the CV regulation will work but not as much as I would like it to.
    Because the alternators I am getting only need about 4 or 5 amps to power the armature field at full output and typical high out put alternator voltage regulators only make 4 to 5 amps.
    So I will just use the 12v regulators for 12v battery charging and starting assist.
    If these OE voltage regulators are only going to put off 5 amps then they would make about 200 amps on each alternator at 12v, 100 amps at 24 volts, 67 amps at 36 volts, 50 amps at 48v, 44 amps at 55 volts. (55 volts is more for industrial/off grid battery bank charging, not welding) It doesn't even really sound all that useable for CV welding.
    If it was enough its not that certain degree of over kill that I am looking for.
    No wonder it costs so much to upgrade to include CV in a commercial or industrial machine. CV is turning out to be slightly more of a PITA than I thought it would be.

    Got looking around some more and found extra heavy duty external alternator voltages regulators that make 10 exciter field amps. That would make about 80 amps from each alternator at 55 volts, 190 amps each at 24v, 150 amps each at 30 volts if the engine can take it.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  14. #14
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    With all the thought you have put into the electrical side of this, have you given any thought as to this 22 HP V-Twin engine you are going to power it with? Which one/brand are you thinking of using? What's the torque output and max RPM available? Vertical or horizontal shaft?

  15. #15
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    I'm sorry but I view this as a recipe for a blinding blue flash and cloud of magic smoke. Any time you start messing around with the way a 3 phase alternator is wired, the chances for a disaster are astronomical. Go buy a commercial unit that's ready to go to work!

  16. #16
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    I made one once with a burned up pressure washer, gm 150 amp alt and 2 deep cycles and 3 caps.

    worked but it's no real welder...better off finding an older engine drive that you can repair or modify. windings are much better in a real welder instead of alternators...

  17. #17
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Horizontal shaft. Besides that I don't really have to worry about the engine since I am not building it. I can be assured the max speed and horsepower on the motor will be 4000rpm, or close to it. Torque will peak around 2200 to 2500rpm.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  18. #18
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Quote Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
    I'm sorry but I view this as a recipe for a blinding blue flash and cloud of magic smoke. Any time you start messing around with the way a 3 phase alternator is wired, the chances for a disaster are astronomical. Go buy a commercial unit that's ready to go to work!
    I can mess with how a 3 phase alternator is wired all I want it's not that difficult. All I am doing is putting together a 3 phase power source to make some DC.
    Seems that people who have never messed with building and modifying welding machines or who have never worked on 3 phase motors and generators can make some what effective alternator welder machines I should see what I can do with one.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  19. #19
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Interesting project. Some people want to build their own stuff, if only to gain the knowledge about how things actually work. I happen to also be one of them.

    Regarding the CV side of things: I think that you may find the time constant on the altenator field is too long to effectively control the voltage into a constant state with the excitation. This is why choppers with high gain pi filters are typically used for DC CV. You may get it to work with a high capacitance though, as this will moderate the time constant of the altenator field by slowing the change in voltage to a rate where you can replenish it with extra output from the altenator. Use a smaller inductance on the output of the cap bank vs CC.

    As far as the field windign goes, there will be a maximum current you can run in the field (thermal limitation), and a max voltage you can run (insulation). Not sure which you will reach first, not knowing the altenator you are using.


    You will need a feedback type excitation circuit for the CV side, so why not use it for both CV and CC. I'd suggest the use of a PIC or TL494 chip for a pulse width modulated mosfet based current source. I think you will find that at different engine speeds you will need different amounts of excitation current to produce the same stator output. Thank Faraday for that!

    I was researching the CV vs CC mode on the Miller Shopmaster in our shop. It is a scr phase controlled unit. The main hardware difference between CC and CV is that on CV mode, the inductance was dropped substantially, and a big cap bank is added in. I'm sure the feedback control loop on the scr gating is changed somewhat as well, in your case this pertains to the excitation circuit feedback loop.

    Anyway, the concept is valid, but there will likely be lots of small hurdles. That's what I call learning experiences though.

    Chay
    Last edited by miller300a; 05-13-2016 at 12:03 PM.

  20. #20
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    I was already planning on having different voltages at different RPM with fixed field current, which is exactly how the SA200 works.

    I was not expecting an automotive alternator to have 1 microsecond response time of a typical generator, but be fast enough to work.
    The field voltage won't be more than 14 volts.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  21. #21
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Quote Originally Posted by mad welder 4 View Post
    I was already planning on having different voltages at different RPM with fixed field current, which is exactly how the SA200 works.

    I was not expecting an automotive alternator to have 1 microsecond response time of a typical generator, but be fast enough to work.
    The field voltage won't be more than 14 volts.
    No, not 1 us.

    The field winding on a generator (Altenator is just a generator) is an inductor. It takes time to change the current in an inductor. Your altenators are small, thus small inductance, but the change in voltage is quick without the right size capacitance. Just trying to get that concept across, that direct voltage regulation with the field current may be difficult without enough capacitance in the output of the welder. Trial and error may be the best approach to figure this out.

    For reference, the large generators I work on can have time constants in seconds!


    Chay

  22. #22
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    As far as capacitance goes I have a few 10,000uf 100v electrolytic power capacitors I can use.
    The out put frequency of the 3 phase alternator will be between 200 and 450hz so there is very little voltage ripple.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  23. #23
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Alright, next thing I am looking at is the building the inductor coils.
    I put about 1mH in my big 230 amp craftsman and about 2mH in my 100 amp craftsman tig.
    In the 100 amp tig I used that much inductance because that's all I had room for and the 230 amp craftsman stick, that was just what I was able to find and it works excellent.

    So for the CC SMAW/tig side I am thinking my original plan of gutting microwave oven transformers is the way to go. Repacking 4 with 10 gauge magnet wire and setting them in parallel, 2 on each alternator.

    For the CV welding side I need know a little more about how much inductance they like to run. All I hear is "less than a DC-CC welder". For now I will worry about the least about CV welding since I don't have a wire feeder. It can go on the back burner.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

  24. #24
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    How much does your life insurance cost you

    I love this sort of stuff, but don't come on my job site!

    But I await the result with breathe held!

  25. #25
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    Re: Alternator welder 22hp V-twin, 400 amps, CC/CV, TIG, stick, MIG, 2 weldor, 100% d

    Good ideal, I should put a hood on it to make it look like a normal looking machine.
    old Miller spectrum 625
    Lincoln SP-135 T, CO2+0.025 wire
    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
    Craftsman 100amp AC/DC and WP-17V torch
    Century 115-004 HF arc stabilizer
    Home made 4 transformer spot welder
    Home made alternator welder

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