L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:
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  1. #1
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    L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    What is the differences between these two items? Is one physically larger than the other and that it? Both are rated at the same capacity and duty cycle. If one is more robust in construction then that is the road to take, but the cost is substantially more.

    Here is another question I'm hunting an answer for:

    I have a 150A main lug only, 18 space panel with plug in stabs. I'm wondering at what point do requirements change for bolt in, rather than the plug in style? The front faceplate retains all inserts solid to preclude loosening, but I'm more used to bolt in style than the plug in variety although I see both in use routinely. All are NEMA 1 rated for indoor use.

    Thanks for any assist.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    L14-30 is for 125/250 VAC single-phase and is commonly called a "generator plug", found on gensets that serve both 125 and 250 volts. Hot-hot-neutral-ground.

    L15-30 is 3-phase 250 VAC. L1 - L2 - L3 - ground. Both are rated for 30 amps.

    Can't help on the service panel.
    Last edited by Canoecruiser; 11-27-2016 at 06:23 PM.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoecruiser View Post
    L14-30 is for 125/250 VAC single-phase and is commonly called a "generator plug", found on gensets that serve both 125 and 250 volts. Hot-hot-neutral-ground.

    L15-30 is 3-phase 250 VAC. L1 - L2 - L3 - ground. Both are rated for 30 amps.

    Can't help on the service panel.
    Thank you. Have never seen the L15-30P myself but sounds like what is needed for the task and application. The need is for 3ph, delta configuration in 240VAC.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slob View Post
    Thank you. Have never seen the L15-30P myself but sounds like what is needed for the task and application. The need is for 3ph, delta configuration in 240VAC.
    That's what I use in my shop after the RPC, 3-phase delta. The stores like Lowes/Home Depot don't carry them but any electrical supply house does.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoecruiser View Post
    That's what I use in my shop after the RPC, 3-phase delta. The stores like Lowes/Home Depot don't carry them but any electrical supply house does.
    You're right there. I see the items online but my supply house discount is better than the cost I've seen on ebay and such.

    Thanks again,
    Slob

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  6. #6
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    L15-30P/R is what I used on my 3 phase milling machine as well.

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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    There is no code requirement for bolt in breakers with the exception of field installed back fed breakers. Bolt in breakers are common in commercial settings but very rare in residential. Your local utility may have requirements on commercial service equipment though. As an alternative to bolt in breakers look at the Square D QO series and the Cutler Hammer CH series. They both have clips that clamp tightly onto the bus and the rail, kind of like Eagle's claws.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    There is no code requirement for bolt in breakers with the exception of field installed back fed breakers. Bolt in breakers are common in commercial settings but very rare in residential. Your local utility may have requirements on commercial service equipment though. As an alternative to bolt in breakers look at the Square D QO series and the Cutler Hammer CH series. They both have clips that clamp tightly onto the bus and the rail, kind of like Eagle's claws.
    Thanks, I've looked in my NEC manual, NEMA manual, and even the old trusty "Ugly's" manual and cannot find anything in print for requirement of either type. I see mostly Square D and Federal Pacific with some Crouse-Hinds and Cutler-Hammer, but predominantly Square D in newer facilities. Everything is however bolt in types. I have a "QO" series panel I'm planning to use in my work trailer and the breakers mount rigid into the enclosure. This is the same series, (albeit single phase) used in my house and never have had any problems.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    where would there be problems using a 5100 series pin and sleeve instead of the 4100 series in a 240VAC Delta configuration? I have both 60A, and 100A sets available along with cable to interconnect them.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    I have had problems with fpe panels in the past. IIRC they don't sell them any more due to the buss loosening and causing fires. I have found breakers used in one of the supply houses but replace the panel instead. Have a siemens panel in the house and will use square d qo, not homeline stuff in the shop.
    Regards
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Federal Pacific closed up during the 1970's if I remember correctly. A lot of equipment I work with is fed by their panels but are not homeowner quality. I've not been around much residential apparatus myself. We usually use Square D w/DOB series breakers on smaller panels 200 amps and less. The 400 and larger panel use breakers which are physically much larger in construction in both single, and multi pole types. Both have had many safety recalls over the past couple of years and there have been counterfeit copies in the marketplace distributed. I've been recalled to jobsites numerous times to check on lot production numbers to ascertain if they are subject to recall.

    I'd still like to know if there is any problem using the 5100 series apparatus which is rated for 208VAC 3ph, wired for 240VAC 3ph which is normally the 4100 series? I'm not subject to any inspection citing the work is done by myself. Lot's of leeway available when you are not doing a job for hire, but for oneself.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    FPE I believe is still in business. They make industrial equipment. Their residential panels were and continue to be a nightmare! A federal lawsuit accused FPE of manufacturing very dangerous residential equipment. The suit accused FPE heads of falsifying test results, suppressing evidence of numerous life, and property losses because of FPE failures.

    Most commonly, they are accused of failing to clear faults. High current faults cause the breaker points in FPE breakers to weld. This renders them unable to open a circuit. If you have FPE breakers in your home, get rid of them!!!!!

    Bolt in (QOB) VS QO is usually a mater of amperage. I've done Dr. Offices where there were many low amperage loads using QO load centers. Industrial applications where 50+ amp loads are common, might be better served with bolt in. Newer QOB panels will accept bolt in, or QO snap in breakers. Feeding big sub panels, or heavy single circuits go QOB. Over240 Volts, I don't think QO is available.

    Square D special orders it pays to order panels full of breakers. Be careful if you intend Delta three phase. Square D will build the panelboard with only as many three phase positions as you buy, all others will be single phase. I spent months fighting to get the panel I ordered. I had numerous 240 volt single phase loads, they insisted I put all on one transformer. They eventually gave in and supplied me a whole new panelboard as altering it on site violates UL listing.

    Willie
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    FPE I believe is still in business. They make industrial equipment. Their residential panels were and continue to be a nightmare! A federal lawsuit accused FPE of manufacturing very dangerous residential equipment. The suit accused FPE heads of falsifying test results, suppressing evidence of numerous life, and property losses because of FPE failures.

    Most commonly, they are accused of failing to clear faults. High current faults cause the breaker points in FPE breakers to weld. This renders them unable to open a circuit. If you have FPE breakers in your home, get rid of them!!!!!

    Bolt in (QOB) VS QO is usually a mater of amperage. I've done Dr. Offices where there were many low amperage loads using QO load centers. Industrial applications where 50+ amp loads are common, might be better served with bolt in. Newer QOB panels will accept bolt in, or QO snap in breakers. Feeding big sub panels, or heavy single circuits go QOB. Over240 Volts, I don't think QO is available.

    Square D special orders it pays to order panels full of breakers. Be careful if you intend Delta three phase. Square D will build the panelboard with only as many three phase positions as you buy, all others will be single phase. I spent months fighting to get the panel I ordered. I had numerous 240 volt single phase loads, they insisted I put all on one transformer. They eventually gave in and supplied me a whole new panelboard as altering it on site violates UL listing.

    Willie
    Thanks Willie;

    I was told they were defunct but that could be in the residential line of which I have no experience. I've seen some of their old panels in farm duty but they are usually on an old bin or dryer and have been for years. We've been standardized on Square D and the QOB for a lot of years encompassing at least 30 that I've been around. Even facilities built in the late 1950's are Square D. The old Federal Pacific panels are installed into buildings which were built in the mid to late 1950's and never replaced.

    Everything I deal with is either 480VAC, or 208VAC when 3 phase. My old skid mount Onan genset which I plan to use is 240VAC 3ph and non reconnectable to 208VAC. It's an Onan thing I'm thinking. I have a couple of older 30kw sets which are 12 lead reconnectable but they weigh quite a bit more and parts are long obsolete for the engines, (Hercules RXLD, Continental R-6602). This is why I keep dwelling on the 208 "Y" apparatus configured to operate on 240 Delta configuration. I have a few 100 amp pin and sleeves along with 60 amp units with several hundred feet of 4/4 SOOW, 6/4 SOOW, and 8/4 SOOW cord I've saved through the years. I have about 70' of 2/4 SOOW cord also which is the dongle for powering my house or shop when commercial power is out. Far too many outages through the years to not have this capacity around these parts. Although this Onan generator has never been mounted since I removed it from a fire station 22 years ago, (replaced w/Kohler) it's always served me well in a mobile capacity.

    Appreciate your insight with this.
    Last edited by Slob; 11-30-2016 at 12:30 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    I strongly prefer the Delta 240/208/120 configuration. Most machines capable of running on 208 will run easier on 240. A 400 amp service gives more available power, longer circuits with a given conductor size. Architects, designers, and engineers don't get it. A motor designed to function on 200 volts is hard pressed to get started on a circuit 200 feet one way supplied from 208. I did a clinic, a building serving several doctors. It was a big cavernous 20 year old warehouse building you might build for a truck repair facility. The perfect place for the air conditioning was at the back of the building right beside the electric service. Circuit length would have been under twenty feet. AC was designed for 230 with 198 minimum voltage. They insisted on placing it on the opposite corner of the building. Round trip circuit length was about 400 feet! It was supplied with #2 copper, where a 240 volt service would be done with #8.

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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Numerous manufacturers were known to fail to interrupt high amperage faults. I am aware of only two manufacturers able to pass the new (C. 1985) standard Square D, and Cutler Hammer passed with flying colors. Others redesigned their breakers. I believe various values according to power supply calculations, 22,000 for Service disconnects, 10,000 Amps symmetrical root.mean.squared.

    Everybody's breaker would open at current double its rating. A short circuit, or fault to ground would weld the breaker points together. FPE were the most erratic.

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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    We have been tied up with short circuit analysis for months on end during equipment demolition and new installs. I don't know why engineering tends to stay with 208VAC wiring myself and they don't seem to mind spending the funds for the larger copper when upping the voltage would reduce overall cost. However, I have to follow specifications without variance. Much of the equipment I work around is joint use military/civilian and they have been 208VAC for many years along with DC buss type setups.

    I'm wanting to set this trailer up with weatherproof electrical connections, (pin and sleeve) on the exterior as to not have extension cords dangling all over the place. Internal wiring and switchgear is to all be NEMA 1 in conduits. Everything will either be shore power fed, or engine generator supplied for electrica and I have the needed switchgear on hand. I'm kinda thinking along the lines of a 60amp feeder from the pin and sleeve to a distribution box, (NEMA 4 enclosure) of which extension cords will plug into if I'm explaining that correctly. This of course so several operations can go on at once with plenty of available power. I've not researched the requirements but am planning to incorporate a 60 amp fused disconnect to feed the 60 amp pin and sleeve right next to it on the trailer exterior for easy access. We never have a pin and sleeve assembly live as they are always powered through fused disconnects. Probably a requirement but I don't know for sure.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    I post up that I've never seen an L15-30 plug series and rooting through my wire storeroom I find a box of six of the plugs after I'd just ordered a half dozen from the supply house, (go figure). Name:  L15-30 Plug.jpg
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    I have no idea what job they are left over from, or if someone gave the box to me but I'll cancel the order placed yesterday for the same plugs. We usually only use "Hubbell, or Woodhead" brand connectors and these are "Leviton", so not something I ordered myself. I also ordered six each of power inlets/outlets with both male and female spade along with female ends for the 10/4 SOOW cable that will feed the machinery.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Found my bigger honkers. 200A P&S, (pin side only) fed with 1/0 cables. Too big for this application but I use them with my other gensets on jobsites.

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    Slob

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  19. #19
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Lots of times we get Leviton products that are obviously relabeled Hubbell equipment. Hubbell products are staggeringly expensive. Identical Leviton stuff is half the price.

    The pin & sleeve plugs you show look to be Meltric. They offer both Disconnect rated plugs, and load break rated stuff. At $1000 per, you don't want to have then to provide a 100 amp knife switch! One customer bristled at 200 amp equipment load break rated, but presented with the multi component alternative, decided it was a bargain.

    Don't waste those plugs, they might come in handy.

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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Those plugs are Meltric and I do use them on engine generator replacement projects to keep facilities backed up while the upgrades take place. Yes, they are very expensive but I only follow demolition and installation procedures. Not my place to educate them engineers, just fix their screw ups. These are 208VAC 3phase Y configuration as you know. I have a double 400 Amp set also but those are currently in use on a job paralleled with another set for capacity. I hate working with that stuff as the cables are 500MCM and it takes two men and a small boy to move those around.....

    I don't know if we have a contract with Hubbell and Square D or not but all electrical and switch gear of late has been those brands. In my minds eye, they are cost prohibitive to use. Other brands meeting the same spec are much less expensive to purchase. Transfer switches are all Zenith, (Kohler rebranded) and the engine generator sets are all Kohler under 1MW output. Marathon builds the generator portions about 600KW with Kohler manufacturing all under that size. The engines are from varying manufactures of seemingly anyone whom produces engines. IMO, ASCO switch gear was much better but that gap is closing. Many modifications to closed transfer switches later and they're becoming quite reliable. The open transfer type(s) got a wholesale controller change out to make them work reliably.

    Found a spool marked 400' of #2AWG THHN wire this afternoon in the storage locker. This is left over from a job performed eons ago. I'm thinking a little of that will be used in my trailer to support the generator output into the entrance panel, and from a 100A breaker, feed the 100A pin and sleeve assembly on the trailer side. I returned my 150A main lug 18 space panel today and ordered the same in a 24 space to have adequate circuit breakers to protect more branch circuits without junction terminations. I'm planning to have the 100A pin and sleeve, a 60A pin and sleeve, an L5-20 duplex receptacle, and an L15-30 all mounted in water resistant apparatus on the outside of the trailer. I hate extension cords hung all over the place creating a trip hazard so working another angle to lessen this.

    Where I'm going is the 60A P&S will feed either a load, or a junction box with a couple of L15-30R receptacles in the end, an L5-20 duplex receptacle in one side, with another 10-50R single phase receptacle in the other side. I have about 200' of 6/4AWG SOOW cord for this. The junction box will not have a cord permanently attached but rather will be fed by a 60A sleeve receptacle so will be easy to field deploy from the trailer. Primarily I'll use the 50' section of this cord and coil the 75' sections. This way work can be performed very near the trailer, or distant as power is readily available. I plan for everything to have removable cords that moves and what doesn't move will be rigidly affixed to the trailer supporting members, and hard wired.

    Wish you were closer as I can do this by my lonesome but it's a lot faster working with someone else whom has knowledge of the type job.

    Everything is dead when I plug into it so don't need load break rated. Know what you mean about the cost of these things as I remember working with engineering for the acquisition years ago.
    Last edited by Slob; 12-03-2016 at 12:42 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    The flanged power inlets, (L15-30) I ordered are about 3-5/16 diameter which is physically too large to fit on my bandsaw, or hydraulic pumping unit without modifying the same. I'm wondering if it would work for me to wire a short pigtail with an L15-30P through a cord grip to hang in free space when not connected? This would allow a quick connection with an L15-30R but not have the long cord permanently attached to either portable machine.

    I've seen this done in the past but it's been for privately owned machines in home garages.

    Thanks,
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  22. #22
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    extension cords are forbidden for permanent use. A cord equipped with approved strain relief from a ceiling or wall permanently connected to a box meeting a short cord from a machine I don't know of a rule prohibiting. Some inspectors might say the UL listing is for the machine without the short cord.Adding the cord voids the listing. The inspectors I've dealt with aren't that difficult. I'd try to avoid permanent cord laying on the floor.

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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    extension cords are forbidden for permanent use. A cord equipped with approved strain relief from a ceiling or wall permanently connected to a box meeting a short cord from a machine I don't know of a rule prohibiting. Some inspectors might say the UL listing is for the machine without the short cord.Adding the cord voids the listing. The inspectors I've dealt with aren't that difficult. I'd try to avoid permanent cord laying on the floor.

    Willie
    Yes, that is exactly what I'm trying to envision. I don't want cords on the machine, just a short pigtail. I will roll my bandsaw out of the trailer, plug an extension cord into the L15-30 receptacle in the side of the trailer, and the other end, (female) will connect to the male end which is on the pigtail mounted to the bandsaw. This way I can completely remove the cord from the bandsaw and roll it back into the trailer up it's ramp w/nothing to trip on. My pumping unit will be set up the same.
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    Wondering if this will work and be acceptable? It would be crowded with the contactors inside the enclosure but I do feel I could fit an inlet if need be.

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    This is a 125' spool of 6/4 SOOW cord with a 60A P&S, a 60A M&F P&S for an extension, and a 100A Sleeve, along with a 60A fused disconnect.

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    Slob

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  25. #25
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    Re: L14-30P, vs. L15-30P:

    That I believe is going to be a red flag to an inspector. The weight of the cord attaching to it will place undue strain on the SO cord where it passes through that rusty old connector. At least, I'd use a cord a foot longer equipped with a strain relief. At best, a box with chase nipple, and bushing could be mounted to the saw in place of the present cord. Then a hub in the bottom could receive the strain relief. Vertical strain could be better survived without bending the cord.

    Willie
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