12volt to 110/120 volt inveters
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  1. #1
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    12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Having problems setting up a battery backup system for my furnace. Have 2 large 12v battery's connected to my inverter connected to my furnace. Furnace error code is open ground or reversed neutral. I checked the inverter shows open ground even with the ground connected to the grounding stake and water pipe!
    This is the second inverter I got took the first one back, second one the same problem. This is a full sign wave inverter because the furnace will not run on my modified sign wave inverter! Any Help out there?
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  2. #2
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    The inverter's neutral is floating vs. building ground.

    In a properly operating building electrical system ground and neutral are electrically identical. The difference being neutral is the normal return path and ground is the backup/safety path when things go sour.

    Until and unless you get an inverter that allows tying neutral to ground (grid intertie system) you are looking at lots of frustration.

    Research "neutral-ground bonding" associated with portable generators when used in portable applications.
    Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.
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  3. #3
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Thank You Mike837go. Not what I wanted to hear but puts me in the right direction. Any ideas for an Inverter? this is getting to be a nightmare! :mad
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  4. #4
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    1:1 Isolation transformer; tied in at the main panel.
    Last edited by Billdacat; 01-11-2017 at 03:12 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    You may need a split phase 120/240 volt inverter to get a 0v neutral.
    Problem is most 120v inverters is they run 60v on the hot and neutral, even on the expensive pure sine ones.
    Only problem is the cheapest one worth a damn is over $2,000.

    You would have the same problem if you were using a 120v only producing generator.
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  6. #6
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Mad Welder The generator produces the same problem it produces 220V but will not run the furnace! but not an inverter generator! Ouch at $2000. that being US$ equal to $3000 CDN$
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  7. #7
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Billdacat Interesting I have a 1 to 1 transformer may try that! Thanks!
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  8. #8
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ypop View Post
    Any Help out there?

    My backup is an old fashioned wood stove! Yes. Even in Florida.


    You DO realize that motors draw SEVERAL times their rated amperage when starting don't you? And I'm guessing that your furnace requires 220/230 VAC. That means that your amperage draw from TWO 12V batteries is going to be at least 10 times what the furnace draws! Even after the motors have started. Long story short, you would need a MASSIVE inverter to start and run your furnace and you'd need a room full of batteries to operate it for more than a few minutes. This is not a good application for an inverter! Buy a generator instead. They will also cope with the start up current much better than an inverter will.

    This would make a great excuse to buy a new Miller Bobcat or Trailblazer!

  9. #9
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ypop View Post
    Mad Welder The generator produces the same problem it produces 220V but will not run the furnace! but not an inverter generator! Ouch at $2000. that being US$ equal to $3000 CDN$
    generator probably has floating neutral as well, if it is giving you the same error code.
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  10. #10
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    You would need a bonded neutral-ground 120/240v generator, then unbond the N-G connection for home tie in.
    Nearly all of the smaller generators that only produce 120v power do not have a 0V neutral.

    An isolation transformer could work.

    I put installed my 100,000btu per hour high efficiency condensing natural gas furnace a few years ago, it actually only needed 120v power. I figured as big as it was it had to be 240v. Good thing I read the owners manual before installing it.
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  11. #11
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Thanks Beoccoli1 that is what I figured too Know of any way around it?
    Would like to just be able to run generator I thought the inverter would be a work around but no go!

    FlaJoe Furnace is 110V ac full load even start up is 5 amps no AC not needed much up here in Canada maybe one month a year so just suffer through it and yes have a fireplace but have to keep feeding it where as the natural gas keeps coming in!
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  12. #12
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    At Dad's old house we just had a plug on the furnace. Then when plugged in to something else the house wiring was unaffected.

    I did the same for my wood stove blower. Just unplug and plug in to something else.

    Will that work here?
    Dave J.

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  13. #13
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Sadly No Minnesota Dave furnace is computer controlled for high efficiency but not for running on generators!
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  14. #14
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ypop View Post
    Sadly No Minnesota Dave furnace is computer controlled for high efficiency but not for running on generators!
    For the genset (and possibly for the inverter) use the other 120VAC receptacle and install a G-N bonding plug.

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    You'll want to do some more reading on what this accomplishes BEFORE you use it with the inverter. The Genset should be OK with it.
    Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.
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  15. #15
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ypop View Post
    Sadly No Minnesota Dave furnace is computer controlled for high efficiency but not for running on generators!
    Right, plug it in to the inverter set-up.
    That way it is not tied to the house.
    Dave J.

    Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

    Airco 300 - Syncro 350
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  16. #16
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    My inverter genset (Yamaha EF3000iSEB) has a separate terminal on the front that is supposed to be tied to earth ground any time the machine is used (I never do though)
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  17. #17
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by frieed View Post
    My inverter genset (Yamaha EF3000iSEB) has a separate terminal on the front that is supposed to be tied to earth ground any time the machine is used (I never do though)
    Short of OSHA compliance, none of us do.

    However, G-N bonding has to take place somewhere in a business or residential electrical system. In a house or commercial building, the main panel has the bonding. A portable genset (or inverter) powering an appliance or tools over extension cords, will have to have the bonding added.
    Be wary of The Numbers: Figures don't lie,. but liars can figure.
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  18. #18
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by frieed View Post
    My inverter genset (Yamaha EF3000iSEB) has a separate terminal on the front that is supposed to be tied to earth ground any time the machine is used (I never do though)
    Silly CYA instructions and does not Bond The N & G.
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  19. #19
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Generator sets that produce 120v power only, typically your smaller ones have the floating neutral and no neutral ground connection.
    Larger portable contractor 120/240v generators usually always have the neutral ground bond.
    To properly tie in a generator it needs to have the neutral ground bond removed, so that neutral current doesn't flow through both the neutral and ground wires to the generator.
    But you are supposed to have a neutral ground bond on these generators for stand alone operation.
    old Miller spectrum 625
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    Craftsman 230amp AC/DC and WP-18V torch
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    Home made DR44G alternator welder

  20. #20

    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ypop View Post
    Having problems setting up a battery backup system for my furnace. Have 2 large 12v battery's connected to my inverter connected to my furnace. Furnace error code is open ground or reversed neutral. I checked the inverter shows open ground even with the ground connected to the grounding stake and water pipe!
    This is the second inverter I got took the first one back, second one the same problem. This is a full sign wave inverter because the furnace will not run on my modified sign wave inverter! Any Help out there?
    If it is 120 volts you have to take the neutral from the inverter and make sure you land it on the L2 not the L1 or you will get that code, even using city or municipal power you will get that code.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  21. #21

    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Inverters are supposed to be internally neutral bonded by code.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  22. #22
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    ok got the furnace sorted out Thank You Every One!
    This worked for the inverter and probably for the Generator as well seeing as it works for campers with the same problem!
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  23. #23
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Yup

    Good to hear it's all working.
    Ed Conley
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  24. #24
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    Re: 12volt to 110/120 volt inveters

    Quote Originally Posted by frieed View Post
    My inverter genset (Yamaha EF3000iSEB) has a separate terminal on the front that is supposed to be tied to earth ground any time the machine is used (I never do though)
    This confooses the ground neutral bond purpose.

    On a generator, the frame is really the "ground"- when ground is mentioned it is not always Mother Earth.

    Driving a ground rod on a generator does NOT bond the Neutral to "ground".

    Clear as mud ?
    Ed Conley
    http://www.screamingbroccoli.com/
    MM252
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    Lincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)
    Miller 125c Plasma 120v
    SO 2020 bender
    Beer in the fridge

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