Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet? - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Jan 2017
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    Bozeman, Montana
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    206

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    I'd outlaw those back stab outlets - I think they are too flimsy of a connection.

    Just personal opinion.
    My daughter recently complained that the outlet she plugged her iphone into was working intermittent. I had to move her bed to check and the the outlet cover had gotten hot enough to deform it. The outlet was a back stab type and the wire insulation was ruined from the heat and I ended up cutting out sheetrock and replacing the wire all the way back to the previous outlet. All because someone saved five minutes by not using screw type terminals. I replaced every other original in the house too, they were all backstab types.

  2. #27
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    Jun 2012
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    Bemidji MN
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    13,041

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin811 View Post
    My daughter recently complained that the outlet she plugged her iphone into was working intermittent. I had to move her bed to check and the the outlet cover had gotten hot enough to deform it. The outlet was a back stab type and the wire insulation was ruined from the heat and I ended up cutting out sheetrock and replacing the wire all the way back to the previous outlet. All because someone saved five minutes by not using screw type terminals. I replaced every other original in the house too, they were all backstab types.
    Damn man, that's scary
    Dave J.

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  3. #28
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    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    Damn man, that's scary
    Yes it is! I have been looking into AFCI breakers, which are supposed to detect that type of arc fault. I can't afford to change out the whole breaker box right now, but I think I'll start at least with the bedroom circuits, and change the rest a few at a time.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
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    4,502

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    You can't afford a fire. CAFI (Combination Arc Fault Interrupter) breakers see both series arcs (loose connections), and parallel (Nail in a wire, rat chewed, staple too tight, pinched between building and foundation). They eliminate most sources of electrical fires. They give more bang for the buck than any safety device ever. Find a way.

    Willie
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  5. #30
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    Jan 2017
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    Bozeman, Montana
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    206

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    You can't afford a fire. CAFI (Combination Arc Fault Interrupter) breakers see both series arcs (loose connections), and parallel (Nail in a wire, rat chewed, staple too tight, pinched between building and foundation). They eliminate most sources of electrical fires. They give more bang for the buck than any safety device ever. Find a way.

    Willie
    Yes, thank you! I thought from reading the specs that the AFCI breakers I was looking at didn't protect from series arcs, and that's want I wanted. For some reason I hadn't discovered the CAFI breakers yet.

  6. #31
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    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
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    4,502

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    In 1997 VT started requiring CAFI breakers on limited situations First in the nation. It turns out they jumped the gun. Square D, the brand I prefer to use, had an electronic design glitch. There was a massive recall.

    Over the years, National code has added ever more situations where these things are required. Sadly, where I live the old residential structures most in need of these devices aren't required to have them. They are required on most residential circuits when they are installed, or altered. Enforcement is spotty. Usually it's after a fire, there might be a lawsuit.

    Willie
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    614

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    You can't afford a fire. CAFI (Combination Arc Fault Interrupter) breakers see both series arcs (loose connections), and parallel (Nail in a wire, rat chewed, staple too tight, pinched between building and foundation). They eliminate most sources of electrical fires. They give more bang for the buck than any safety device ever. Find a way.

    Willie
    Good advice Willie. What do these costs and where is the best place to get them?

  8. #33
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    Jan 2017
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    Bozeman, Montana
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    206

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlaJoe View Post
    Good advice Willie. What do these costs and where is the best place to get them?
    for the square d qo (the type i need) 20amp, I found them ranging from $20 on ebay to around $45 at home depot. I'm suspicious of the ebay ones, especially after reading this,
    https://www.schneider-electric.us/do...sKnockoffs.pdf,
    so I'll go with a reputable supplier. I've got more research to do to see if Home Depot has the best price.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    614

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by robin811 View Post
    I'm suspicious of the ebay ones, especially after reading this,
    I'm with you on that one! You wouldn't believe some of the counterfeit electronic parts that I've seen coming out of China! They're even faking the OEM boxes and instruction manuals. And lot of the Chinese counterfeit parts are being sold by sellers inside the US now so buying only from sellers within the US is no guarantee. I've learned to be very suspicious of any electronics sold on E-bay.

  10. #35
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    Jun 2012
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    Laredo, Tx
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    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    I guess this is one case where buying at big-box stores pays off.
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  11. #36
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    Nov 2012
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    614

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    I guess this is one case where buying at big-box stores pays off.

    At least their packages tell you that they were "Made in China".

  12. #37
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    Dec 2013
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    Mount Tabor VT
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    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Square D QO tend to be a chunk more expensive. Square D Homeline are usually cheaper. I usually order from electrical wholesalers, but I've found very similar pricing at Home Depot. You can get a price break if you buy a breaker panel full.

    Willie
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  13. #38
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
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    1,988

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Square D QO tend to be a chunk more expensive. Square D Homeline are usually cheaper. I usually order from electrical wholesalers, but I've found very similar pricing at Home Depot. You can get a price break if you buy a breaker panel full.

    Willie
    Keep in mind if you have any multiwire branch circuits you will need 2 pole arc faults for those. Also if your house was wired by the kind of monkeys that think all the neutrals go together at every switch box you will have to straighten that out as well.
    Last edited by bigb; 02-17-2017 at 08:24 PM.
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  14. #39
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    Jan 2017
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    Bozeman, Montana
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    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    Keep in mind if you have any multiwire branch circuits you will need 2 pole arc faults for those. Also if your house was wired by the kind of monkeys that think all the neutrals go together at every switch box you will have to straighten that out as well.
    This house was built around 1970. I've found some sketchy things, and some annoying ones, like each rooms lights and outlets are all on the same circuit. But no multiwire branch circuits at least. And unlike a lot of the older houses around here that are 100 amp services, it is a 200amp service, so I was able to run a 100 amp subpanel to the garage. It's just an ongoing project to update things and fix all the issues I find. There wasn't a single GFCI outlet in the house, now I have them on every circuit required by code, plus the bedrooms for good measure. The ground wasn't connected on a several outlets and it took some digging to find where the problem was (A box in the ceiling of the basement that split a single wire into four differnt wires all twisted together with red wire nuts. That one circuit was feeding a section of the basement, the garage, one wall of the upstairs living room and one wall of the master bedroom and some of the ground wires had been cut off short because there wasn't room to stuff them in the box. I cleaned all that up. Such are the joys of owning an older house.

  15. #40
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    Jan 2017
    Location
    Sylva, NC
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    36

    Re: Fried an outlet with my new welder, GFI versus extrenal box, 30 or 20 amp outlet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Square D QO tend to be a chunk more expensive. Square D Homeline are usually cheaper. I usually order from electrical wholesalers, but I've found very similar pricing at Home Depot. You can get a price break if you buy a breaker panel full.

    Willie
    But if he has a QO panel, he can't use home line breakers. QO can ONLY use QO.

    Find a friend at a supply house, or maybe you know an electrical contractor who has a friend at the supply house. Panel change out is straight forward and easy enough to do.
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