Dual shield welding........Why?????
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  1. #1
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    Dual shield welding........Why?????

    I don’t understand the reason for dual shield welding. Please help me understand.
    1. Since you are using gas with dual shield, you have the same problems with the gas blowing away like standard mig.
    2. With dual shield you also have the same problem with slag remove, to a lesser extent as with flux core welding.
    Now, if you are welding where wind is not a problem (inside), what’s the advantage of dual shield over regular mig??? Next, and a may be wrong here but it seems dual shield wire is more expensive than regular, and you also have expense of running gas with the dual shield.
    Last, as I understand, leaving out stick welding, Flux core is the only option for outside, winding conditions.
    So, where is my common sense failing so badly?????
    Thanks,
    Pete
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  2. #2
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Dual shield is a very fast process. Time is money!
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  3. #3
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Flux core-gas (dual shield) runs well in all positions (unlike solid wire mig). Dual shield has superior penetration over solid wire with gas. Dual shield runs clean and spatter free, unlike flux cor self shielded wire. Dual shield has very high rate of metal deposition and is the preferred wire for large structural steel welding projects. You can run dual shield outside, you just need a wind shelter.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by snoeproe View Post
    You can run dual shield outside, you just need a wind shelter.
    We ran dual shield, splicing these 10-feet diameter X 1-inch wall piling in the Columbia River gorge.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    So, it's faster and smoother. May I ask, how come it's faster????
    Thanks,
    Pete
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  6. #6
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Its more commonly used on larger machines, and structures. It runs hotter and faster, and smoother than solid wire. It takes about 25v and 450 ipm to run just .035" dual shield/outershield. .045", 1/16" and up are fairly common sizes. It gets better penetration, is more tolerant of contamination than solid wire mig, and doesn't smoke as bad as gasless flux core. The slag peels off easily like 7014/7018 . Next time your near a back hoe, excavator or forktruck, look at the larger welds. You'll notice the welds are really smooth, almost ripple-less. They are most likely dual shield. In a nutshell it works, try a spool next time you have a lot of Heavy section I-beam splices, or heavy wall structural tube frames. My lincoln 210 mp can really only run the .035 well. "Willie" has a thread in another part of this site stating that he finally "gets it" .It might bring more light on the subject for you. I think a lot of Hobbyists use it in 33lb reels. Lincoln calls their brand Innershield, and I think Esab calls their brand Dual Shield. Put on your heavy gloves and buy some extra tips if you buy a roll.

  7. #7
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    MIG covers a lot of territory. Dual Shield is faster than short circuit MIG because you run hotter and with higher wire speed.

    I don't know how dual shield compares to pulse and spray MIG, seems like solid wire would be faster than tubular.

    We run short circuit roots and fill and cap with dual shield on the smaller pipe up to about 12 inch where I work. Not sure why we don't use pulse, a lot of shops are doing it.

  8. #8
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by CEP View Post
    We ran dual shield, splicing these 10-feet diameter X 1-inch wall piling in the Columbia River gorge.
    CEP, did you ride your Schwinn to work that day?
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  9. #9
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyTIG View Post
    MIG covers a lot of territory. Dual Shield is faster than short circuit MIG because you run hotter and with higher wire speed.

    I don't know how dual shield compares to pulse and spray MIG, seems like solid wire would be faster than tubular.
    can be faster, cheaper, and more cost effective. such as in flat horizontal spray. but not by much. dual shield does it all, and is easily and consistently certifiable. therefore it is the process of choice for most construction and industrial operations.

    the main reason i choose dual sheild for 90% of everything i do is consistency and speed. i very often lay down 15lbs of wire in a day, sometimes as much as 25lbs. and thats only in the 045 flavor. and it is always a good, deep, clean weld. if its not a good weld i can tell visually, i've been tricked with hardwire, it can look good but have nearly zero penetration. my 2cents
    Last edited by tracymobilecnc; 04-20-2017 at 11:51 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Dual shield, if I'm not mistaken, has a higher tensile strength than hard wire. I've always equated dual shield to 7018 and hard wire to 6011/6010.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    I believe our hard wire is 70s6, so should be pretty close to the same tensile strength.

  12. #12
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by fps View Post
    So, it's faster and smoother. May I ask, how come it's faster????
    Thanks,
    Pete
    faster.... refer to deposition rate (lbs of metal per hour deposited) hardwire 045 can be about 5.4 lbs/hr while ultracore 045 can be 11.9 lbs/hr (also notice melt of vs deposition rate)

    ultracore> lincolns brand of 'dualshield' its what i use

    for referance;
    http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...-N/c101011.pdf

    http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...Dual/c3128.pdf
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  13. #13
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    both hardwire and dualshield have same tensile

    *generally speaking. can be had different
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  14. #14
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by xryan View Post
    CEP, did you ride your Schwinn to work that day?
    No, I had a company pickup I used to go to work.
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  15. #15
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    For flat position flux free hot welds I prefer metal cor wire. For out of position welds, dual shield is the way to go.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    I seldom worry about weld metal tensile strength. 70,000 is almost always enough. Fusion, and ductility are more important in my mind. A 100,000 LB tensile weld metal is of no advantage if it didn't adequately fuse with the steel being welded, or if while cooling, (shrinking) it pulls away from the workpiece 'cause it can't stretch.

    6010 gives me the best penetration, and therefore fusion, it stretches easily maintaining strength until cool. Its shortcomings (in my mind) are; it doesn't run uphill super easy, and the water, and hydrocarbon flux give it lots of hydrogen molecules that migrate to the perimeter of the molten steel. This phenomenon might leave an opportunity to crack. I'll get flamed for this statement, I admit I've never had a good 6010 weld break, but I tend to be over cautious.

    Dual shield is fast, but that's not my concern. It gives good penetration, without much hydrogen. It runs uphill incredibly well, and has enough ductility to still be strong after it shrinks.

    The phenomenon of overheating the gun, while the welding machine doesn't seem to overheat, I don't yet have an explanation. It is spray transfer, so the arc is on all the time, there is jetting action, where solid MIG usually doesn't.

    Willie
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  17. #17
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Well, I may say I got a lot of information out of you guys, and good info, too. I'm sure you helped a lot of others wondering what I was. Since I'm only a small repair guy, that hasn't seen even 1/2 inch steel to weld, I'm hoping my setup of a portable 110v flux core machine for on the job fix its, another 110v mig machine for smaller gas mig, an alpha tig for other stuff, and my 220 amp machine with spool gun for bigger stuff.
    Thanks again for the help,
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  18. #18
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    The dual shield also aids the not-so-good-relationship between hard wired+gas and evul mill scale,especially on material over 3/8.
    That said I'm still a 7018 guy but "production" in my world is only 6-8 columns or repairing a machine.I wish it had existed back in the day when an order for 80-100 columns wasn't unusual. My back doesn't miss it tho.

  19. #19
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quick question on Dual shield. How do u think it would run in the Miller 350p in pulse mode?

  20. #20
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzoo View Post
    The dual shield also aids the not-so-good-relationship between hard wired+gas and evul mill scale,especially on material over 3/8.
    That said I'm still a 7018 guy but "production" in my world is only 6-8 columns or repairing a machine.I wish it had existed back in the day when an order for 80-100 columns wasn't unusual. My back doesn't miss it tho.
    "Back in the day" gotta be a long time ago. Dual shield has been around since the seventies.

  21. #21
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by matt1morton View Post
    Dual shield, if I'm not mistaken, has a higher tensile strength than hard wire. I've always equated dual shield to 7018 and hard wire to 6011/6010.
    it is a common misconception and commonly referenced by those in the industry that "dual shield is stronger than hard wire". It is complete misinformation as there are too many variables to consider and no definition in that statement of what is meant by 'stronger'.

    one of the more common FCAW-G wires is E71T-1 which has 70 KSI MINIMUM tensile strength. the same is true for all ER70S-x wires. 70 KSI Minimum Tensile strength across the board.

    FCAW-G can put down more lbs per hour for a number of reasons including and not limited to increased voltages and speeds due to two shielding mechanisms as opposed to relying only on one as with GMAW. FCAW, with its tubular structure, and by its very nature of having a flux, can be tailored very specifically to the job at hand by adding alloying elements or de-oxidizers in varying ratios with minimal reset at the manufacturing facility. Adding iron powder to the flux, in addition to many other elements, can also increase your deposition rates allowing a welder to put down significant amounts of weld per hour.

    Consistency and the necessary high voltages and amperage as compared to hard wire GMAW also allows the wire to forego the common missteps of cold lap and lack of fusion making it more trusted and more easily qualified to different codes.
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  22. #22
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by prconnection View Post
    Quick question on Dual shield. How do u think it would run in the Miller 350p in pulse mode?
    Good question. I've never tried (or seen / heard of) dual shield being run in pulsed spray mode. But though because of the slag it doesn't sound like all that good of idea to me. But I don't know for sure whether or not that's a deal breaker or if there's any advantages to be gained from running it pulsed.

    Metal cored wire on the other hand does run good in pulsed spray mode. In fact you pretty much have to run it in pulsed mode if you're going to be using it in any thing other than flat or horizontal.

    If I had a 350p I don't think I'd be able to resist the urge to try running some metal core wire in pulsed mode with it. That might be some thing that could serve you real well for a lot of things.

  23. #23
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    This is a very informative thread. Many thanks to the pro's for sharing their knowledge.
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  24. #24
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by prconnection View Post
    Quick question on Dual shield. How do u think it would run in the Miller 350p in pulse mode?
    It's just not required. It runs so well out of position you don't need pulse. It's like running 7018 from a wire gun.
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    Re: Dual shield welding........Why?????

    Quote Originally Posted by prconnection View Post
    Quick question on Dual shield. How do u think it would run in the Miller 350p in pulse mode?

    Although not in Pulse mode, we preferred to use the Millermatic 350p over the Millermatic 252 any day of the week for FCAW-GS. We would hit the 60% duty cycle on the 252.
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