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  1. #26
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Wow! Quite the under taking there HT, nice job!!

    Pete

  2. #27
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Did get some time to go over the shell with an IR thermometer during the second full power test. With the exception of two spots up high on one side all was pretty good. The worst spot was this one right here that read close to 500 F. right in the center. Was going to cut a small place out with the zip disc and try and get some more fiberfrax in there but we were pressed for time and it got decided we could live with it as is. One thing I figured out was that the paint they used on it was good up to around 300 f. before it would start to darken.

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    The roof did really well. There was no discomfort at all being up there when the oven was up to 1375F. There was a few small areas up around 160 to 170 but mostly it was down around 120 or less.

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    The highest reading I got on any place you could walk around it and touch from ground level was 135 F. and that was on the doors. For the most part any place you could reach you could touch bare handed (all though there was some areas you wouldn't want to keep your hand on too long. There was no place some one could accidently touch that would sear them. I was given to understand that the OSHA rules governing this kind of thing say 140F max for where there's a risk of people coming up against it.

    Part of the safe operating procedures we've been coming up with is that this will have some safety warning barrier tape set up around it when it's in use. And how's this for some sternly worded signage. Before it gets turned on the back doors get pad locked with this tag on it.

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    On the second test we opened the doors when it got up to 400 F. so we could get a look inside. It was a fairly unpleasant experience that required taking a few quick steps back. In the couple of minutes we had them opened the paint on the sill above the doors got hot enough to start darkening. Based on that experience I'm pretty sure that opening the doors when it was at 1375 would be a horrible mistake. I'm not saying a guy couldn't do it (and survive uninjured) but I'm pretty sure you'd want to be wearing one of those silver proximity suits when you did it.
    Last edited by HT2-4956; 03-12-2018 at 12:48 PM.

  3. #28
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by pgk View Post
    Wow! Quite the under taking there HT, nice job!!

    Pete
    Thanks Pete. Just to be clear though...all though I'd like to think I contributed a few minor design improvement suggestions here and there this was entirely some one else's vision. I was basically just a fairly well paid helper on this project. In other words...this was some one else's baby I just helped midwife it.

  4. #29
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Another strange thing that happened on the first full power test that caught us both unawares was the amount of water that ran out of it as it came up to temperature. Were still not entirely sure just where it's coming from. Our working guess at this time is that it's coming out of the refractory material. By the time the first test was done and it had cooled back off it was sitting in a pretty good sized puddle of water. The water was condensing on the inside of the shell and dripping out the bottom edge. Turned out it was a pretty good idea the guy had to have me put that angle iron around the floor and caulk it and then grind all those flush spots (gutter spouts) in the remains of the walls that were on the floor.

    Even on the second test run it did the same thing, just not as much. What looks like a fillet weld back in this open area where the shell meets the floor is actually the caulk I put around that angle iron I screwed to the floor.

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    This picture was taken on the second test when it was close to being up to 1375 F. and you can see how it's still peed its self some. What you can see on the floor in these pictures is way less than what dripped out of it on the first test.

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    Last edited by HT2-4956; 03-12-2018 at 12:50 PM.

  5. #30
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    That moisture is normal, I used to do competition BBQ and when ever we fired up one of those large offset Pits there would always be quite a bit pf moisture or condensation. As far as opening the door while the oven is still hot your right even at 400 degrees that's going to get your attention, ever open your oven door on your range when it's at 400 with your face just above the door? I can't imagine opening it up at 1350!! It would be cool "no Pun" to set up a thermo lock on the door similar to self clean range so that the door can't be opened until it's at a safe temp..

  6. #31
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Nice work for a turd chaser!

  7. #32
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by welder4956 View Post
    Nice work for a turd chaser!
    Welcome aboard shipmate.

  8. #33
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by welder4956 View Post
    Nice work for a turd chaser!
    Marty,

    If you are who I think you are you've spent time in the 26A shop of two of the Sub Tenders in this picture.

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  9. #34
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by pgk View Post
    That moisture is normal, I used to do competition BBQ and when ever we fired up one of those large offset Pits there would always be quite a bit pf moisture or condensation. As far as opening the door while the oven is still hot your right even at 400 degrees that's going to get your attention, ever open your oven door on your range when it's at 400 with your face just above the door? I can't imagine opening it up at 1350!! It would be cool "no Pun" to set up a thermo lock on the door similar to self clean range so that the door can't be opened until it's at a safe temp..
    I've seen that too. If it would have been gas fired I wouldn't have been to surprised to see a lot of water coming out of it because I'd of figured it was coming from the end product(s) of hydrocarbon combustion. But being as it's electric powered I'm sure it's not coming from that. IDK, there's a pretty good volume of air in it and maybe it's mostly coming from getting cooked out of that. Now I'm going to have to see if I can puzzle out how much water vapor might be available to come out of the volume of air that's in it at the start at a given temperature and humidity level.

  10. #35
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    True, I would think that gas and or wood would produce more condensation the a electric setup? It may have been moisture in the insulation? What was the humidity the day you guys fired it up?

  11. #36
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Just in case I haven't completely exceeded any ones interest in this thing yet........

    This was the inside just prior to closing the doors and starting the second test run. We put four of the eight adjustable height support stands the guy had me build for use in it inside to have a place to hook some thermocouples up to. Those stands are made from ss square tube.

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    For hooking up the thermocouples so the controller would have some input I twisted the two wires together and pinched them in the joint where the sections of the stands slipped together. Had one down low (1' off the floor) and one up high (3' off the floor) on each of the 4 stands. When actually stress relieving something those thermocouple wires will be welded directly on to the assembly with a pin welding gun. It's like a miniature stud welder that works by capacitor discharge.

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    This picture was taken a minute or so after power was switched on to that one section of heating element that runs on the floor next to the wall. Didn't take long for it to heat up and grow in length to where it started to bow up out of the channel it lays in, in a few places.

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  12. #37
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Maybe I missed it, how many amps does this oven draw when in use? I did notice the huge generator you guys were using.
    Pete




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  13. #38
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by pgk View Post
    Maybe I missed it, how many amps does this oven draw when in use? I did notice the huge generator you guys were using.
    That was a 350 kVA generator and the max draw I saw being pulled on it during the few minutes I spent watching it's on board monitor screen was 253 kVA. It was fluctuating up and down quite a bit as the controller on the oven was switching power to the 12 heating elements on and off (which it was doing quite a lot of) trying to keep an even temperature between each of the 8 thermocouples I had spaced out inside the oven. On top of that the guy had changed the software settings of the oven so the heating elements were only working at an 85% duty cycle.

    The Brother of the guy I was working for is a software engineer and he wrote the software that controls it. In fact he was kind of right there with us (while still at his place in Seattle, WA) monitoring things and making some changes over the internet as we were running it.
    There's actually a web site that if you had authorization and the password to log on to you could monitor what it was doing, up load new time and temperature profile programs for stress relieving different materials or run diagnostics on it in case of malfunction. As long as that oven is being used where there's a good wifi signal it can be controlled from pretty much any where there's interweb access. A lot of the details of just how that oven works are still some what above my current pay grade (understanding).

    I can't hardly believe than when I took this picture that I caught it with all the indicator lights on because that was kind of rare. At one point for a few minutes I got kind of mesmerized watching them switch on an off trying to discern if there was some kind of pattern involved. It seemed like every 3 to 5 seconds there was a major change in which elements were getting power and which were not.

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  14. #39
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Way cool!! 253kva Damn!!
    Pete




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  15. #40
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by pgk View Post
    Way cool!! 253kva Damn!!
    And you know for as powerful as that generator was it was whisper quite and not in the least annoying to have to be around. Mostly it sounded like it was just idling but ever now and then I could hear it drop down to a lower note like it was having to work a little harder. But even then it didn't make much noise. There wasn't any time that you couldn't have stood right next to it and had a normal volume level conversation with some one.

  16. #41
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by pgk View Post
    True, I would think that gas and or wood would produce more condensation the a electric setup? It may have been moisture in the insulation? What was the humidity the day you guys fired it up?
    Now there's a good question. Don't normally pay much attention to the projected humidity levels when I check my Weatherbug app in the morning. Normally I only care about what the temps are going to be so I know how many layers I need to put on. Have checked it some the last couple days and based on what I've seen I'm going to estimate it was in the 40 to 50 % range. But, that building we were in was being heated with natural gas heaters to keep it above freezing inside. The thermostat was kept at 50 F. overnight (we turned it up to 60 when we were there working). We've been having a pretty good deep freeze going on here for quite some time and those heaters ran quite a bit so it wouldn't come as a big surprise to me to find out the humidity levels in the building were actually pushing 100%.

    Concerning calculating how much water might be in a given volume of air well, not quite as straight forward as you might tend to think. It got complicated real quick. Have found a psychometric chart where it's all worked out for sea level but I'm at around 3400'. Not sure just yet if that'll make a real big difference. Need to do some more studying up.

  17. #42
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    More concerning the heating elements....

    I think I mentioned in the first thread I started on this; that evaporated due to the server crash, that the heating elements had what's called a "cold tail" on both ends. There's a 1' piece of a different alloy wire that doesn't have as much resistance so it doesn't get as hot as the main body of the element welded on both ends. That's all about keeping the heat off the main electrical connection and so it runs cooler where it passes thru the shells insulation.

    I remembered to get some pictures. These welds were made at the company the elements were purchased from. Looks to me like there's a good chance they were done with tig. I've now got some scrap pieces of both these wires and I plan on playing around in the next couple days to see if I might be able to get similar results using tig. Pretty sure I'm going to need some kind of simple basic fixture to hold them in alignment and butted up tight against each other.

    The 1' piece of "cold tail" wire is on the right in these pictures. You can see by the temper colors left on it (an inch or so to the right of the weld) that it didn't get as hot as the wire in the main body of the element. That element was in the oven on the first test run so it's been thru a thermal cycle of taking that oven to 1375 F. and holding it there for one hour.

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    For scale purposes...that pink ceramic insulator (bead) you can see on the left has a 1/2" OD.

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  18. #43
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by HT2-4956 View Post
    And you know for as powerful as that generator was it was whisper quite and not in the least annoying to have to be around. Mostly it sounded like it was just idling but ever now and then I could hear it drop down to a lower note like it was having to work a little harder. But even then it didn't make much noise. There wasn't any time that you couldn't have stood right next to it and had a normal volume level conversation with some one.
    LOL, I remember competing down at one of the Kansas City Royal BBQ competitions and our team setup was like 30 feet away from one of those huge Generators and I thought to my self that it was going to be a real annoyance as far as noise went, turned out like you said, could hardly hear that thing running. I'm sure it wasn't under anywhere near the load you guys had going on. I do remember the muffler on it was enormous, and the inner case looked like it was lined with some type of sound deadening material.
    Pete




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  19. #44
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by pgk View Post
    LOL, I remember competing down at one of the Kansas City Royal BBQ competitions and our team setup was like 30 feet away from one of those huge Generators and I thought to my self that it was going to be a real annoyance as far as noise went, turned out like you said, could hardly hear that thing running. I'm sure it wasn't under anywhere near the load you guys had going on. I do remember the muffler on it was enormous, and the inner case looked like it was lined with some type of sound deadening material.
    I did a little google fu on CAT generators the other night and man do they ever have a big selection of them. And some of them are seriously bigger than the one we were using. And it seems like the one we had (and the one you saw at the BBQ event) have been specially design for low noise levels so they can be used for non-industrial public events that are being held where there's not enough on grid power to support them.

    Came across a used one with 4300 hours on it that looked to be pretty similar to the one we just used and it was listed for $117,000 USD. So they ain't cheap. I don't know what it cost to rent it for the 4 days it was out at that shop but I'll see if I can find out.

  20. #45
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Took a quick run at seeing if I could get a good manual tig weld on some of that heating element cable to be able splice on a "cold tail" piece if the need arises at some future point. Slapped together a rudimentary fixture that definitely needs some improving on. It better than having nothing but just barely. I think I've got a big idea on how to make a better one with out to much fuss or having to involve NASA.

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    First two tries at it were pretty ugly but on the third attempt I started liking the results.

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    The other thing I learned doing this is that every pair of wire cutting pliers (dykes, end nippers, needle nose, welpers, etc) I've got is dull as hell from having cut to much tig wire with over the years. I'm definitely needing some kind of new "stranded" wire cutting tool that will cut it a lot cleaner and leave a good square end that's not crushed and beginning to unravel.

  21. #46
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by HT2-4956 View Post
    The other thing I learned doing this is that every pair of wire cutting pliers (dykes, end nippers, needle nose, welpers, etc) I've got is dull as hell from having cut to much tig wire with over the years. I'm definitely needing some kind of new "stranded" wire cutting tool that will cut it a lot cleaner and leave a good square end that's not crushed and beginning to unravel.
    The correct tool for cleanly cutting stranded cable is a shear type cutter. I use them to cut aircraft control cables that are then swaged with whatever terminating hardware desired.

    Here is an exemplar:
    https://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-722-..._&dpSrc=detail

    I have the Greenlee and probably bought them back when you were still pooping your Pampers.

    I also was wondering if a Nico-Press sleeve would work for a quick field repair? Just thinking out loud, AGAIN. Or is that mumbling incoherently? Hard to tell these days.

    BTW, HT! Since you seem to have found a home on this EZY Bake Oven project, maybe we should just start calling “Betty Crocker”!
    Roger
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  22. #47
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Rodger (you old fart),

    Thanks for the info on the cable cutters. They look like just what I'm needing. Took my calipers to it the other day and it measures in the .105 to .110 diameter range.

    As to calling me "Betty Crocker" well, you can call me anything you want as long as you don't call me late for supper.

  23. #48
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    HT2, this is another vote for those types if cutters. I have a set and they work great. Mine are not Greenlee, but red and I cant remember the brand

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  24. #49
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    Read, or heard, about empty containers here in the United States. Can't find it, but remember it.

    Because of the trade imbalance between us and China........a good deal of containers are "stranded" here because there's no outbound load back to China. We simply don't sell them anything. And in a lot of cases, it's cheaper to sell the container than pay to haul it deadhead back to China.

    So..........we're becoming the next Somalia. Nothing of value that the world wants.
    Check with the rental companies, around me we rent them for $80/mo and you can often buy them for around $1600-$2000

  25. #50
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    Re: Portable Electric Heat Treat Oven

    Have some red handled cutters, made by FELCO. Cut real nice, they are model C3. Swiss company, website was slow to respond; https://www.felco.com/
    Found them on Grainger, item #12R370. $76
    Some of the cost with shipping containers is transport. Had a twenty footer moved for $250, easy access and it went over the road five miles or so. Wondering about renting a trailer suitable for one time move to CO, might be easier to find one there but we could bring back a skid steer on the return trip.
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