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  1. #51
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Well Ive never had HAC from 6010. Some weldors even wash or reccomend watering 6010.
    Yeah, I've seen watering on 6010 recommended if it's old also...and then letting it dry...I was mostly curious in why it is used for a root pass when 7018 is typically used when HAC is a concern. It just seems counter intuitive.

    I see we cross posted and I edited to ask you about that San Jose job...

  2. #52
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I'm sure well engineered structures are designed with just enough strength.
    Well, yeah, I guess if "double or triple or five times the expected maximum load" is considered "just enough strength."

    For example, wire rope that has a breaking strength of 14,400# but the working load limit (WLL) is rated at under 3000#.

    Normally, engineers try to build-in strength to withstand that once-per-century or "once every 500 years" event...and dynamic loads are far different from static loads. A 200# man who falls 8 feet can break a rope rated for 2000# breaking strength (going from memory here and I'm not certain of the exact numbers but you would be surprised).
    Last edited by Kelvin; 04-16-2018 at 08:23 PM.

  3. #53
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    I took some lessons from a pipe weldor a few weeks ago. He said they dont cap with 7018 here in Nevada. Maybee California also. Makes sense since you dont have to change settings and rod or use rod oven etc. Maybee he will read this and comment but as A Dab pointed out: low tensile strength steel doesnt need low Hy or something like that.

    I dont know what brand used in San Jose and I assumed EXCALIBUR. I will ask. He was bitch'n about the Bobcat he had to use. He tried to get his boss to rent my SA 200 but the boss rented a new Bobcat for his Reno job.

    Did you feel the quake a few weeks ago?

    EDIT: the pipe weldor mentioned cathodes and isolation used on gas pipe. I assumed it was to control electric build up but may have been more for resisting hydrogen cracking.
    Last edited by Insaneride; 04-16-2018 at 08:25 PM.
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  4. #54
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    Indeed that is. I would think that would completely "bake" out the hydrogen at that heat, but I'm no expert but the color looked like it must have been around 1500-1600 degrees on the root pass, it was pretty much red.



    I'm not a garden artist, but the reason I was asking was because both 6010/6011 infuse hydrogen into the weld and if you place a weld in mineral oil you can see the difference between 6010/6011 and 7018 clearly. This has nothing to do with keeping 7018 in an oven. AFAICT, that's a separate topic in itself. Do you really get it?

    EDIT: Insaneride I was curious about San Jose, as I live in San Jose. Did they use Murex 7018 on that job? I'm mostly just curious. The water company is laying new pipe in our neighborhood and they're using some type of pipe that uses a plastic finger lock similar to how a Chinese Finger Puzzle works. The harder you pull the tighter it evidently gets. They say it's guaranteed for like 50 years...They are replacing welded pipe that was in the ground. That seems like some of the work where certified welding was needed in the past. I wonder if non-welded pipe will eventually replace even gas and oil lines in the future? (I guess I'm derailing my own thread...LOL)
    So, what about the X-85 line pipe that is still welded with 7010 or 8010? are those pipeline guys stupid too?

    You are not going to have Hydro issues with mild steel or even higher grade cross country pipe, hot multi pass welds take care of that problem. Honestly a city water system doesn't even count, C-900 plastic with O-rings is more than enough, the "Chinese finger" thing would be good insurance. I suppose that over a certain size of pipe they might go welded steel, but anymore I doubt that in a city system.

    Do you "really get it?"

  5. #55
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    So, what about the X-85 line pipe that is still welded with 7010 or 8010? are those pipeline guys stupid too?

    You are not going to have Hydro issues with mild steel or even higher grade cross country pipe, hot multi pass welds take care of that problem. Honestly a city water system doesn't even count, C-900 plastic with O-rings is more than enough, the "Chinese finger" thing would be good insurance. I suppose that over a certain size of pipe they might go welded steel, but anymore I doubt that in a city system.

    Do you "really get it?"

    My city water comes from that green C-900. Does the C stand for chlorine ? You know like pvc? I used the 12 feet leftover piece for a culvert. My water treatment plant is about 4 miles away. It sits on a large pile (3 square miles or so) of naturally formed calcium carbonate. Ironically, calcium carbonate is the main ingredient in 7018 flux.

    As for the mineral oil test, mineral oil is full of hydrocarbons and from what I can tell its mostly hydrogen with only half as much carbon. There are many different mineral oil combinations but they all were around 50 hydrogen atoms to about 20 carbon. Ive seen that mineral oil test somewhere but I dont recall it being used to measure hydrogen outgassing. The modern method uses a spectrophotometer but I do believe liquid mercury was the method used to monitor hydrogen outgassing. My point is: dont believe everything you hear or read and only half of what you see.

    BTW, that Chinese finger thing is probly a seismic thing for California.
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  6. #56
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    The 'C' in PVC actually stands for Chloride and no the 'C' in C900/c905 pipe does not stand for that C-9xx is a spec or class of pipe relating to how it is constructed and sizes, etc.... We have laid a stick or two its a lot easier than ductile or steel just for the weight factor alone and the pressures most systems use rarely goes above a few hundred psi unless you count surge spikes and such.

  7. #57
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by ronsii View Post
    The 'C' in PVC actually stands for Chloride and no the 'C' in C900/c905 pipe does not stand for that C-9xx is a spec or class of pipe relating to how it is constructed and sizes, etc.... We have laid a stick or two its a lot easier than ductile or steel just for the weight factor alone and the pressures most systems use rarely goes above a few hundred psi unless you count surge spikes and such.
    Ok thanks. It seems like the bell (name?) or coupling and burial would hold it together for water pressure. I dont think mine leaks and about ten years ago, I had a couple months of repeated quakes. The water line stops at my home. The neighbor that built next to me is on a well. The quakes started soon after the well was drilled. The well driller came back for a different neighbor and I told him the quakes started after the last drilling . He said he knew and had to drill deeper after quakes started. Anyway the C900 seems to hold up and I had a girl friend in town that had a major water leak. She had an older house and I think it was before C-900.

    Correction about the main ingredient in 7018 flux. For EXCALIBUR the MSDS shows iron (15%) as main ingredient and calcium carbonate (10%) second main ingredient but I think different brands use different amounts.

    https://www.centralwelding.com/MSDS/...8%20USM291.pdf
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  8. #58
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Yeah, the gasketed bell ends can have quite a bit of movement and not leak, in fact you can actually deflect the pipe a good amount without leaks.

  9. #59
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Do you "really get it?"
    Well, I get why I posted this thread, but admittedly I don't understand why...which is why I asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    I took some lessons from a pipe weldor a few weeks ago. He said they dont cap with 7018 here in Nevada.
    That's kind of interesting as it seems the standard in the industry to cap with 7018. Are you saying they weld root and cap with 6010?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Did you feel the quake a few weeks ago?
    Funny, we barely felt it. There was another quake in San Jose yesterday my wife said she heard, but it was in the morning and I was sleeping and didn't wake up...I've been through many of the major quakes in California, including Sylmar, Whittier and Northridge in the L.A. area. Here's a funny story about the Whittier quake, around '87 time frame...I was working at a bank in Downtown L.A. (Security Pacific, since merged with BofA), and working on the 27th floor of the headquarter office, a huge building on rollers. It was like 57 floors, the top 3 where storage and helicopter pad. A Chinese guy from Taiwan had been working in our department for about 3 days. He was reading a computer programming book at his desk when the Whittier quake hit, it was in the morning around 8:00am, as I recall...sometime around fall...the guy almost $#!T his pants, left the building and never returned. He left his books, which were Chinese, and never came back to the bank to get his books or get paid... My boss was stumped, never had that happen...

    I guess they don't have earthquakes in Taiwan...

  10. #60
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Where did you get the information that 6010 for root and 7018 cap is industry standard? Im with snoepro in that its whatever is written (power of the pen). Actually Ive heard the same but not that it was a standard for gas line but I thought because the 7018 is more aesthetic for cap. Dont forget to grind out 6010 slag before cap tho. I think your over thinking the whole 6010 infuses hydrogen and 7018 bakes it out. Im not really buying the 6010 infuses mass quantities of hydrogen either. And if its a small amount it should just outgass. Worrying is a waste of time because if you dont get HAC then you worried for nothing. If you do get hac then you have to worry twice. The pipeliner said 6010 was used all the way out. No need for 7018, change settings or rod oven. I will have to ask about the cathodes. They may have been hydrogen deterrent but now Im guessing. My advice is ; just weld something.

    I was in El Segundo during the Whittier quake. 6.3 I think? The building had the roller skate bushings in foundation footings. The floor looked like a wave. I was on second floor across the street from Security Pacific on Sepulveda. The guy probly did s'it his pants on the 57 floor. Thats why he didnt come back. I probly would have peed myself above a third floor.

    I had a coworker that lived in Sylmar during that one. He was just a kid and said he slept thru it. When he woke, his bed was in the middle of his room. He said he was real mad because his bed was in the middle of the room.
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  11. #61
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Where did you get the information that 6010 for root and 7018 cap is industry standard?
    That's what it seemed to me when I watch Jody Collier's videos. He's often showing how to run a root pass on an open gap root pass, say with pipe, then laying 7018 over the top as a filler/cap.

    Honestly, maybe I misinterpreted him... He seems to imply that for passing certification this is how the test is conducted...and NO, I'm not looking to get certified, I merely want to understand metallurgy to do decent welds. Just kind of like trying to develop "good habits".

    Since I read about hydrogen being infused in 6010/6011 welds, I was just curious...

    I was just asking so I could understand. Not trying to point fingers, or imply anything I don't understand. I thought this forum was the place to ask something like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    I think your over thinking the whole 6010 infuses hydrogen and 7018 bakes it out. Im not really buying the 6010 infuses mass quantities of hydrogen either. And if its a small amount it should just outgass.
    Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to learn from this thread. I merely wanted to understand the proper use of 6011/6010, so I could understand where I would want to use it. From what has been said in this thread, I would try to use it whenever there's an open gap, poor fit up or even dirty steel. The later is probably the most useful for me to understand as that will most likely be the place I would use 6011 over a 7018 rod. For anything I can clean the steel, 7018 would probably be a better choice. Especially if there is no open gap. And one other area I would probably use 6010/6011 is for overhead possibly, it seems to be better suited for overhead, from what a few have said here.

    Again, sorry if I misunderstood something, or asked a dumb question, just trying to learn and understand about welding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    I was in El Segundo during the Whittier quake. 6.3 I think? The building had the roller skate bushings in foundation footings. The floor looked like a wave. I was on second floor across the street from Security Pacific on Sepulveda. The guy probly did s'it his pants on the 57 floor. Thats why he didnt come back. I probly would have peed myself above a third floor.
    We were on the 27th floor, but still...it was surf city with that building I was in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    I had a coworker that lived in Sylmar during that one. He was just a kid and said he slept thru it. When he woke, his bed was in the middle of his room. He said he was real mad because his bed was in the middle of the room.
    Sylmar quake I was in Canoga Park, my family was in the middle of moving to the evacuated zone, the Van Norman damn was splitting open and they thought was gonna burst, so they evacuated a huge area in the northern section of the SF Valley (where I grew up, now called North Hills). In that quake Canoga Park was about 15-20 miles away. I watched the next door neighbors swimming pool throw water 2 stories up and over the house behind it....I watched it out my window...but the Northridge quake was the biggest I was in...and it makes you realize why earthquakes are so dangerous...no matter how much you plan for the steel to stress, or the magnitude of stress that will be required of steel welds...mother nature can defy all odds...and make them buckle like a wet noodle...

    This was from the Sylmar quake in '71...this type of stuff makes me want to understand proper welding and building.




  12. #62
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    I use to work around a lot of pipe welders. I worked in all the oil refineries in the Bay Area, and a lot of food processing plants. The pipe welders would generally use 6010 for the root pass, and hot pass. Then fill and cap with 7018.
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  13. #63
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    That's what it seemed to me when I watch Jody Collier's videos. He's often showing how to run a root pass on an open gap root pass, say with pipe, then laying 7018 over the top as a filler/cap.

    Honestly, maybe I misinterpreted him... He seems to imply that for passing certification this is how the test is conducted...and NO, I'm not looking to get certified, I merely want to understand metallurgy to do decent welds. Just kind of like trying to develop "good habits".

    Since I read about hydrogen being infused in 6010/6011 welds, I was just curious...

    I was just asking so I could understand. Not trying to point fingers, or imply anything I don't understand. I thought this forum was the place to ask something like that?



    Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to learn from this thread. I merely wanted to understand the proper use of 6011/6010, so I could understand where I would want to use it. From what has been said in this thread, I would try to use it whenever there's an open gap, poor fit up or even dirty steel. The later is probably the most useful for me to understand as that will most likely be the place I would use 6011 over a 7018 rod. For anything I can clean the steel, 7018 would probably be a better choice. Especially if there is no open gap. And one other area I would probably use 6010/6011 is for overhead possibly, it seems to be better suited for overhead, from what a few have said here.

    Again, sorry if I misunderstood something, or asked a dumb question, just trying to learn and understand about welding.



    We were on the 27th floor, but still...it was surf city with that building I was in.



    Sylmar quake I was in Canoga Park, my family was in the middle of moving to the evacuated zone, the Van Norman damn was splitting open and they thought was gonna burst, so they evacuated a huge area in the northern section of the SF Valley (where I grew up, now called North Hills). In that quake Canoga Park was about 15-20 miles away. I watched the next door neighbors swimming pool throw water 2 stories up and over the house behind it....I watched it out my window...but the Northridge quake was the biggest I was in...and it makes you realize why earthquakes are so dangerous...no matter how much you plan for the steel to stress, or the magnitude of stress that will be required of steel welds...mother nature can defy all odds...and make them buckle like a wet noodle...

    This was from the Sylmar quake in '71...this type of stuff makes me want to understand proper welding and building.



    Thats a good reason to want good welds. I think are tallest building here is only 30 floors.

    I thought 6010 was generally capped with 7018 also. 7018 looks better IMO but I guess it all depends on what is written.

    What Saskwelder said in the beginning of your thread seems to answer your question.

    "I have heard that pipes using higher tensile steel cannot be welded with the common XX10 electrode typically used on transmission lines here in North America. I must be done with a low hydrogen process, (which to my understanding basically means any process or electrode other than high cellulose rods or possibly, rods with iron powder in it).

    Apparently that is what the XX45 electrodes are supposed to do, be able to produce sound welds (low hydrogen suitable for sour service), but retaining the deposition rate of downhill welding.

    Its interesting that just today (while I'm attending a week of weld training here in Cleveland at Lincoln Electric) I asked the instructor about this very question.

    I reckon its a skill and certification worth attaining for those doing pipeline work, as its very likely to eventually overtake the XX10 electrodes and procedures. "


    If I understand; with lower tensile strength steels, xx10 is exceptable but higher tensile strengh steels need xx18 .
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