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  1. #26
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Most everything organic is hydrocarbon. The process of making charcoal involved burning in an igloo shaped kiln about 40 feet across packed utterly full of wood. Holes around the base let in air, a hole at top served to load, and vent. Once the wood was raging burning, the vents were all closed. Denied oxygen, hydrocarbons couldn't burn. Intense heat broke the bond of hydrogen and carbon allowing the hydrogen to gas off. Two weeks later it was cool, and the desired product of pure carbon was left. This stuff was so light weight, that wagons carrying 12 cubic yards were moved down a mountain with two horses.

    Hydrogen doesn't willingly go away, it takes a lot of energy to force it.

    I know nothing about the steel pipelines are made from. Are they a ductile steel not greatly affected by hydrogen?
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  2. #27
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    The hydrogen gets into the steel by welding.

    "Bake out" might be confusing the issue. Hydrogen moves through the steel faster at higher temperature.

    But subsequent passes on thick enough material can add more metal than the hydrogen can move out of before the temperature drops low enough to trap it.

    This is one reason preheat is measured at a specific distance away from the weld. The higher the preheat, the slower the cool down after welding. This leaves enough time for the hydrogen to escape. Edit: I forgot, sometimes post heat is needed as well...
    Thanks, Dave. Did not know that the preheat and postheat helped with dissolved hydrogen...I always thought preheat and postheat were more to prevent the quenching effect of welding on cold steel, in other words, to normalize and stress-relieve the weld deposit and HAZ to some degree. (And maybe there's some overlap in the two issues.)
    Last edited by Kelvin; 04-10-2018 at 08:31 AM.

  3. #28
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Thanks, Dave. Did not know that the preheat and postheat helped with dissolved hydrogen...I always thought preheat and postheat were more to prevent the quenching effect of welding on cold steel, in other words, to normalize and stress-relieve the weld deposit and HAZ to some degree. (And maybe there's some overlap in the two issues.)
    That's my understanding as well - that there is some overlap with the two concepts.
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  4. #29
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Not sure I understand this statement. If subsequent passes will "bake out" the hydrogen, why didn't the hydrogen "bake out" in the original root pass?

    If steel has hydrogen dissolved in it, will heating it drive off that hydrogen? And if so, how did hydrogen get into the molten puddle in the first place? Confusing...
    And why didnt the hydrogen ignite at hi temperature?

    I had some instruction from a local pipe line weldor a week ago. He said they used 6010 on gas line. No 7018 no 7010.

    Hydrogen is a gas at room temperature. Heres a link to what the AWS said about hydrogen and how to reduce using flux.

    https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0907-273.pdf

    Hydrogen bonds are weak. Remember, three things need to exist for hydrogen assisted cold cracking: (1) Hydrogen, (2)stress and a (3)metal that reacts to Hydrogen. This does not include heat from welding source unless the heat causes warping and stress.

    This quote is from the AWS. I highly recommend reading the above link from the AWS.

    "Dissociation of CaCO3 also introduces higher levels of oxygen into the arc atmosphere that contribute toward the observed lower hydrogen levels. The influence of oxygen on hydrogen absorption during
    welding can be explained on the basis of the decomposition of moisture in the arc atmosphere, represented by Equation 3.
    H2O (g) ↔2H + O
    "
    Last edited by Insaneride; 04-10-2018 at 10:51 AM.
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  5. #30
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    And why didnt the hydrogen ignite at hi temperature?

    I had some instruction from a local pipe line weldor a week ago. He said they used 6010 on gas line. No 7018 no 7010.

    Hydrogen is a gas at room temperature. Heres a link to what the AWS said about hydrogen and how to reduce using flux.

    https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/wj0907-273.pdf

    Hydrogen bonds are weak. Remember, three things need to exist for hydrogen assisted cold cracking: (1) Hydrogen, (2)stress and a (3)metal that reacts to Hydrogen. This does not include heat from welding source unless the heat causes warping and stress.

    This quote is from the AWS. I highly recommend reading the above link from the AWS.

    "Dissociation of CaCO3 also introduces higher levels of oxygen into the arc atmosphere that contribute toward the observed lower hydrogen levels. The influence of oxygen on hydrogen absorption during
    welding can be explained on the basis of the decomposition of moisture in the arc atmosphere, represented by Equation 3.
    H2O (g) ↔2H + O
    "
    Why would such a small amount of hydrogen cause an ignition?
    If deposited at 8ml per 100g (0.22 lb.) of weld deposits, I don't see how that small of an amount, released over a long period of time, and over a broad surface, would be an ignition hazard.

    If my math is right, that rounds up to 0.184 liters of hydrogen per 5 lb weld deposited.
    That seems very small to me and is released very slowly over time - and some of it is already being released as soon as the welding stops.

    With the LEL of 4% by volume, a lot more hydrogen would have to be put into the air than that in my opinion.

    I believe your (3) is misquoted. From what I've read, it should say sufficiently crack sensitive material. I don't recall ever reading about reacting to hydrogen.

    The Lincoln document you linked is about experimentation with flux. It does not seem to be relevant to the question at hand.

    My comments should be taken as the opinion of a chemically ignorant, moderately skilled, welder.

    In case someone wants some easy reading, this document is a good summary and only 4 pages: http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...ldcracking.pdf
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 04-10-2018 at 12:05 PM.
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  6. #31
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    1)Why would such a small amount of hydrogen cause an ignition?
    If deposited at 8ml per 100g (0.22 lb.) of weld deposits, I don't see how that small of an amount, released over a long period of time, and over a broad surface, would be an ignition hazard.

    2)If my math is right, that rounds up to 0.184 liters of hydrogen per 5 lb weld deposited.
    That seems very small to me and is released very slowly over time - and some of it is already being released as soon as the welding stops.

    3)With the LEL of 4% by volume, a lot more hydrogen would have to be put into the air than that in my opinion.

    4)I believe your (3) is misquoted. From what I've read, it should say sufficiently crack sensitive material. I don't recall ever reading about reacting to hydrogen.

    5)The Lincoln document you linked is about experimentation with flux. It does not seem to be relevant to the question at hand.

    6)My comments should be taken as the opinion of a chemically ignorant, moderately skilled, welder.

    ...

    To answer your questions, I labeled them in paragraphs.

    1) Ignition or rather combustion does happen to some of the hydrogen as shown in the balanced equation shown in my post #29. Some of the hydrogen bonds with Flouride. Read the link and look at an msds for 7018.

    2) I will get back to this in question 3).

    3) Math units used in chemistry are mole's and Avagrados number. Your math is off and I have no answer but in response to your question; if it's such a small amount then why does it matter?

    4) You say I misquoted. I basically reiterated something that you copied in a similar thread so I didn't copy verbatim. Again, three things need to be present for hydrogen assisted cracking. 1) hydrogen 2) a metal or material that reacts to hydrogen 3) stress.

    A welding arc is not needed for hac. You may have not understood what you read and to say that I am wrong because you didn't read it that way is arrogant. The reason hydrogen assisted cracking occurs is because metals react to hydrogen.

    5) Wrong and wrong. The link I referenced is from the American Welding Society. The relevant question at hand has everything to do with effects of hydrogen.

    6) I have nothing to comment here but I am not offended by you arrogance mentioned in question 4). We don't all think alike.

    Hope that answers your questions and the AWS link in post #29 was an experiment to find the optimum flux chemistry to reduce hydrogen in the weldment .
    Last edited by Insaneride; 04-10-2018 at 07:31 PM. Reason: Edit rhetoric
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  7. #32
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Insaneride, I have nothing further to add as I don't enjoy conversing with you regardless of right or wrong.
    Dave J.

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  8. #33
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Zap once said, " we don't all think alike". Boy was he rite and that phrase has stuck with me.
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  9. #34
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Companies use 6010 roots under a 7018 fill and cap because they have a WPS written by an engineer and approved by a CWI to do that.


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  10. #35
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by snoeproe View Post
    Companies use 6010 roots under a 7018 fill and cap because they have a WPS written by an engineer and approved by a CWI to do that.


    That about sums it up...asked and answered!

  11. #36
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Why are people getting unhappy when they post answers for the O.P. or anybody else, and parts of the answers are questioned? Maybe somebody misunderstood, or heard contrary info, or just would like further reaction to clarify the subject. I find that the more questions are asked, the more useful explanation/information/ideas come out.

    I spent one hour in a class with a reputed martial-arts expert visiting from Japan. The few Americans in the class were asking questions, which got answers, but if anyone asked a follow-up question to clarify, or if they dared ask "why" A was better than B, the "master" got irritated, even hostile, evidently feeling that his expertise was somehow in question, and that the askers were not showing proper deference. Yet none of us had any intention of offending him. I'm sure the guy knew his stuff, but I left the session fed up with his self-importance and over-sensitivity, and never went back.

  12. #37
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by snoeproe View Post
    Companies use 6010 roots under a 7018 fill and cap because they have a WPS written by an engineer and approved by a CWI to do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by old jupiter View Post
    Why are people getting unhappy when they post answers for the O.P. or anybody else, and parts of the answers are questioned?
    old jupiter, here's a perfect example of why that occurs. snoeproe provided an answer that has added nothing, in fact, this is the very reason I was actually asking the question to begin with.

    I was really looking for an answer as to WHY those engineers and instructors write that in? Most of the answers you find while searching on the web end up with, "at the end of the day, do what is on the WPS and all will be ok.

    I think the question has been answered, that 6010/6011 is used primarily for a root pass to fill a gap, and that filling with 7018 will provide most all the strength, and will even bake the hydrogen out when you weld on top of it. In that regard, and nobody has mentioned it, doing your fill promptly after the root pass would allow better "baking" * as the root pass is still hot would be advantageous. Probably won't matter at the end of the day, since that root pass will heat up quick enough when you start filling over the top.

    * I don't know if baking is the right or wrong term, but that is what it is referred to in the docs and info from Lincoln and/or on Wikipedia. Of course the later doesn't mean much as anyone can edit Wikipedia, but Lincoln should be considered a good reference.

  13. #38
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Well, it seems to me that Snoeproe offered a "bottom-line" or "at the end of the day" answer of why the pipeliners (or others) are doing the welds in a particular way. Which is fine as far as it goes but as was the case with that martial-arts guru, I had more "why" questions. Like you, I can understand reasons why someone doing his own non-code projects might want to do a root pass with 6010/6011 before completing the weld with 7018, and often do this with mild steel. Also, probably like you, I have wondered about the pipeliners doing this. And I think that we got our answer: most of the pipe they work with is not very sensitive to cracking from hydrogen embrittlement, and normally their base metal is not as touchy as we might have thought.

    I liked Dave's (post #30) link (which I am sure I've read before, but a refresher is always good). What Lincoln said there makes me skeptical about the idea of "baking out" the hydrogen from a 6010 root pass with subsequent low-hy passes. Lincoln said the complete degassing of hydrogen out of the bead takes weeks, even months, if left alone. Doesn't sound to me like coming back with a second pass, low-hy or not, is going to suck the hydrogen right out of the root pass (and do what with it?). So again it seems that the answer is to know your base metal and handle it accordingly. Which is probably what most of us have been doing anyway, but some of us always are open to further enlightenment. A basically fairly low-tech welder like me, who starts from a basis of what he learned in his welding school metallurgy classes, is always open to hearing what the smart high-tech welders (piping, high steel, shipyards, nuclear, etc.) have to pass on to us.
    Last edited by old jupiter; 04-12-2018 at 12:52 PM.

  14. #39
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by old jupiter View Post
    Well, it seems to me that Snoeproe offered a "bottom-line" or "at the end of the day" answer of why the pipeliners (or others) are doing the welds in a particular way. Which is fine as far as it goes but as was the case with that martial-arts guru, I had more "why" questions. Like you, I can understand reasons why someone doing his own non-code projects might want to do a root pass with 6010/6011 before completing the weld with 7018, and often do this with mild steel. Also, probably like you, I have wondered about the pipeliners doing this. And I think that we got our answer: most of the pipe they work with is not very sensitive to cracking from hydrogen embrittlement, and normally their base metal is not as touchy as we might have thought.
    One thing I should make clear is that I don't plan on doing any pipeline work, and much of this root pass discussion seems to aim in that direction. Should be no surprise, just that I know I don't plan on doing any high pressure pipe welding. I have 500 feet of 2" water pipe to run, but will use PVC as it's not high pressure and a tiny fraction of the cost.

    What I do plan on using 6011 for is any type of dirty metal and/or outside work, and after this thread, I would use it to fill a gap. If I can clean the steel, 7018 would probably be the choice, and certainly with no gap...but short of that I would probably use 6011. 6011 seems like a good all around electrode to have around in case a need arises, just very useful stick. My inverter doesn't run 6010, or I would probably use it, so the 6011 is a substitute for that which I can run. Poor fitups, gaps, dirty steel, that type of stuff seems good for 6011.

    The other thing I learned out of this thread is that you can run 7018 on DCEN if you need to fill a gap. That could come in handy if you just don't have any 6010/6011 but do have 7018 and need to fill some type of gap.

    Quote Originally Posted by old jupiter View Post
    So again it seems that the answer is to know your base metal and handle it accordingly. Which is probably what most of us have been doing anyway, but some of us always are open to further enlightenment. A basically fairly low-tech welder like me, who starts from a basis of what he learned in his welding school metallurgy classes, is always open to hearing what the smart high-tech welders (piping, high steel, shipyards, nuclear, etc.) have to pass on to us.
    Indeed, if I could only retain everything about metallurgy and how to fuse them together I'd have it licked...in the meantime I keep trying to learn what I can, but more importantly trt to apply it either in practice or project. And that is kind of how this question arose in my head...being curious as to why would a low hydrogen weld as used in pipeline work use a root pass that infuses hydrogen into the weld. I think it's been answered adequately, and yes, those Lincoln sheets are very helpful for much of that.

    My one wish would be for Lincoln to manufacture a 5P+ (in steel tube) in a 6011 variant. AFAIK they only offer the 6011 in Fleetwood 180 or Fleetwood 35 (or similar), in the plastic square tubes. Those are manufactured in Mexico, and it seems the 6010 5P/5P+ in the steel tubes are manufactured in America like the Excalibur. Don't know if there is any difference, just that I can try to keep my $$$s in the U.S. when I can. This goes for tig filler rod or any consumable also, I prefer to buy made in the U.S.A. if possibly.

  15. #40
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Maybe if I go back in the thread far enough, you have stated only AC? otherwise, why not use 6010? As for 6010 being used for general structural work, the first 30 years of my welding I was ignorant. Not that I didn't have an appetite for knowledge, it just wasn't available. The local farm store was also a grain mill. It burned to the ground in 1967. When rebuilt, it was all steel. The whole building was built with 1109 5/32 rod with an ancient Marquette AC welder. They sold the rod bulk, and never knew they were reading it upside down. From 1970 to the mid 2000s I used 1109 with a Twentieth Century 295 amp AC only welder. Nothing I welded has ever broken.

    The truth is, those like me trying to design a fabrication without engineering skills try to over engineer. I'm sure well engineered structures are designed with just enough strength. Everything else is too much or too little.
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  16. #41
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by old jupiter View Post
    Well, it seems to me that Snoeproe offered a "bottom-line" or "at the end of the day" answer of why the pipeliners (or others) are doing the welds in a particular way. Which is fine as far as it goes but as was the case with that martial-arts guru, I had more "why" questions. Like you, I can understand reasons why someone doing his own non-code projects might want to do a root pass with 6010/6011 before completing the weld with 7018, and often do this with mild steel. Also, probably like you, I have wondered about the pipeliners doing this. And I think that we got our answer: most of the pipe they work with is not very sensitive to cracking from hydrogen embrittlement, and normally their base metal is not as touchy as we might have thought.

    I liked Dave's (post #30) link (which I am sure I've read before, but a refresher is always good). What Lincoln said there makes me skeptical about the idea of "baking out" the hydrogen from a 6010 root pass with subsequent low-hy passes. Lincoln said the complete degassing of hydrogen out of the bead takes weeks, even months, if left alone. Doesn't sound to me like coming back with a second pass, low-hy or not, is going to suck the hydrogen right out of the root pass (and do what with it?). So again it seems that the answer is to know your base metal and handle it accordingly. Which is probably what most of us have been doing anyway, but some of us always are open to further enlightenment. A basically fairly low-tech welder like me, who starts from a basis of what he learned in his welding school metallurgy classes, is always open to hearing what the smart high-tech welders (piping, high steel, shipyards, nuclear, etc.) have to pass on to us.
    I think your question comes down to the speed that the hydrogen can diffuse out of the steel.
    Since the 6010 theoretically put quite a bit in there, if the temps are up it can diffuse out much quicker.
    If some of the heating is coming from properly stored 7018, then in theory there is barely any new hydrogen being put in, just the other stuff coming out to the air.

    Part of the document I linked shows the estimated difference in speed by temperature.
    450 degF: 1" per hour
    220 degF: 1" per 48 hours
    room temp: 1" per 2 weeks

    Again, this is just my understanding as a non chemist and moderately skilled welder
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  17. #42
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    One thing I should make clear is that I don't plan on doing any pipeline work, and much of this root pass discussion seems to aim in that direction. Should be no surprise, just that I know I don't plan on doing any high pressure pipe welding. I have 500 feet of 2" water pipe to run, but will use PVC as it's not high pressure and a tiny fraction of the cost.

    What I do plan on using 6011 for is any type of dirty metal and/or outside work, and after this thread, I would use it to fill a gap. If I can clean the steel, 7018 would probably be the choice, and certainly with no gap...but short of that I would probably use 6011. 6011 seems like a good all around electrode to have around in case a need arises, just very useful stick. My inverter doesn't run 6010, or I would probably use it, so the 6011 is a substitute for that which I can run. Poor fitups, gaps, dirty steel, that type of stuff seems good for 6011.

    The other thing I learned out of this thread is that you can run 7018 on DCEN if you need to fill a gap. That could come in handy if you just don't have any 6010/6011 but do have 7018 and need to fill some type of gap.



    Indeed, if I could only retain everything about metallurgy and how to fuse them together I'd have it licked...in the meantime I keep trying to learn what I can, but more importantly trt to apply it either in practice or project. And that is kind of how this question arose in my head...being curious as to why would a low hydrogen weld as used in pipeline work use a root pass that infuses hydrogen into the weld. I think it's been answered adequately, and yes, those Lincoln sheets are very helpful for much of that.

    My one wish would be for Lincoln to manufacture a 5P+ (in steel tube) in a 6011 variant. AFAIK they only offer the 6011 in Fleetwood 180 or Fleetwood 35 (or similar), in the plastic square tubes. Those are manufactured in Mexico, and it seems the 6010 5P/5P+ in the steel tubes are manufactured in America like the Excalibur. Don't know if there is any difference, just that I can try to keep my $$$s in the U.S. when I can. This goes for tig filler rod or any consumable also, I prefer to buy made in the U.S.A. if possibly.
    You should try the Lincoln/Murex 6011C, its made for low voltage AC buzzboxes but it's also very smooth on DC invertor machines. The "Fleetweld" stuff is crap. I use this stuff all the time for repairing galvanized irrigation equipment and prefer it over 6010 5p for thin rusty stuff without the blowouts 5p seems to cause. I can get an 1/8" rod to run at 65 amps on my Trailblazer 302 with no problems... it's that stable. But I think it only comes in 50# boxes and its not cheap. But it will run on any thing.

  18. #43
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    You should try the Lincoln/Murex 6011C, its made for low voltage AC buzzboxes but it's also very smooth on DC invertor machines. The "Fleetweld" stuff is crap. I use this stuff all the time for repairing galvanized irrigation equipment and prefer it over 6010 5p for thin rusty stuff without the blowouts 5p seems to cause. I can get an 1/8" rod to run at 65 amps on my Trailblazer 302 with no problems... it's that stable. But I think it only comes in 50# boxes and its not cheap. But it will run on any thing.
    I was looking at that and couldn't tell from any of the images online where it was manufactured. 50# is way more than I need also...

    Earlier I was at OSH (Orchard) and picked up some Forney 6011 which is made in the U.S.A. A bit surprised to see some made in U.S.A. product a couple blocks from my house...you never know...LOL. I will try to run some beads with it tomorrow.

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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Is it reasonable to say that a root pass will mostly be remelted by the hot pass, driving off the hydrogen? 6010 or 6011 are deep penetrating fillers, they jet away contaminated metal, and replace it with filler. Hydrogen moves easily through hot steel, might it dissipate through a thin pass with both sides exposed to space?
    There's a VERY interesting video of this on Youtube:

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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaDave View Post
    Excellent post



    When I'm tucked up under something, uncomfotable, and poor visibility, 6010 allows me to zip something up easier than 7018.
    If there are any young welders out there trying to learn the trade, this is not a criteria for selecting the proper welding rod.
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackslacks View Post
    If there are any young welders out there trying to learn the trade, this is not a criteria for selecting the proper welding rod.
    Haha! Sure it is Nothing wrong with using a 6010 to zip up a gap and then finishing it off with 7018
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  22. #47
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    Maybe if I go back in the thread far enough, you have stated only AC? otherwise, why not use 6010? As for 6010 being used for general structural work, the first 30 years of my welding I was ignorant. Not that I didn't have an appetite for knowledge, it just wasn't available. The local farm store was also a grain mill. It burned to the ground in 1967. When rebuilt, it was all steel. The whole building was built with 1109 5/32 rod with an ancient Marquette AC welder. They sold the rod bulk, and never knew they were reading it upside down. From 1970 to the mid 2000s I used 1109 with a Twentieth Century 295 amp AC only welder. Nothing I welded has ever broken.

    The truth is, those like me trying to design a fabrication without engineering skills try to over engineer. I'm sure well engineered structures are designed with just enough strength. Everything else is too much or too little.
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  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    I have fresh LINCOLN Murex 7018. I have a rod oven but havnt plugged it in in at least 6 months. Last weekend I was practicing. There was some partial EXCALIBUR that had been rained on outside for two days. With the same settings I was using for Murex, I burned up the wet EXCALIBUR in hopes of getting hydrogen assisted cracking. No cracking whatsoever that I could see and the stuf burned real nice. Ive tried other other ways to try to get HAC. Once I saturated 7018 with acetone (CH3)2CO and didnt get any visible HAC.

    From my college chemistry book, they showed a pic of Niobium in an environment of hydrogen under stress. It had HAC. It does seem that the 300-400*F temps help migrate hydrogen through metal and remove moisture, but the Niobium was at room temp. The test was used to find ways to store hydrogen in a solid form or hydrated. Hydrogen is usually in gas form but because of its small size, it leaks. To liquify' it would take a huge refrigerator so hydrating is a way to store H. I met a young mechanic that was having stainless electrodes made to produce under hood on demand hydrogen to boost his hot rod. He kept it vague tho.

    I know an iron worker that was welding in San Jose last month. He said their oven broke. The inspector told him to replace 7018 after it was opened for 4 hours. I asked him what he did with leftover. He said use it anyway. They have since had a quake in San Jose but the building is still standing.
    Same iron worker was welding here in town last week with 7018 in the rain. He has a bad temper and went home early because he kept getting shocked in the rain.

    Look, I get it, use fresh 7018 from an oven for code work. But how much hydrogen are we talking about and why do garden artists care?


    EDIT: what A Dab said in post #9 answered my question. Also, this is a quote from the link he shared in post #9.

    "Steel with an ultimate tensile strength of less than 1000 MPa (~145,000 psi) or hardness of less than 23 HRC is not generally considered susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement. In tensile tests carried out on several structural metals under high-pressure molecular hydrogen environment, it has been shown that austenitic stainless steels, aluminium (including alloys), copper (including alloys, e.g. beryllium copper) are not susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement along with a few other metals"

    Intersting that Cu copper is not susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement. It doesnt (Cu)react to H unless its a Cu alloy. This quote is also from the same link:

    "Copper alloys which contain oxygen can be embrittled if exposed to hot hydrogen. The hydrogen diffuses through the copper and reacts with inclusions of Cu2O, forming H2O (water), which then forms pressurized bubbles at the grain boundaries."
    Last edited by Insaneride; 04-16-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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  24. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    San Jose, CA Kelseyville, CA
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
    There's a VERY interesting video of this on Youtube
    Indeed that is. I would think that would completely "bake" out the hydrogen at that heat, but I'm no expert but the color looked like it must have been around 1500-1600 degrees on the root pass, it was pretty much red.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insaneride View Post
    Look, I get it, use fresh 7018 from an oven for code work. But how much hydrogen are we talking about and why do garden artists care?
    I'm not a garden artist, but the reason I was asking was because both 6010/6011 infuse hydrogen into the weld and if you place a weld in mineral oil you can see the difference between 6010/6011 and 7018 clearly. This has nothing to do with keeping 7018 in an oven. AFAICT, that's a separate topic in itself. Do you really get it?

    EDIT: Insaneride I was curious about San Jose, as I live in San Jose. Did they use Murex 7018 on that job? I'm mostly just curious. The water company is laying new pipe in our neighborhood and they're using some type of pipe that uses a plastic finger lock similar to how a Chinese Finger Puzzle works. The harder you pull the tighter it evidently gets. They say it's guaranteed for like 50 years...They are replacing welded pipe that was in the ground. That seems like some of the work where certified welding was needed in the past. I wonder if non-welded pipe will eventually replace even gas and oil lines in the future? (I guess I'm derailing my own thread...LOL)
    Last edited by TraditionalToolworks; 04-16-2018 at 08:02 PM. Reason: San Jose

  25. #50
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    Re: E6010/E6011 for root pass and the effects of hydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by TraditionalToolworks View Post
    Indeed that is. I would think that would completely "bake" out the hydrogen at that heat, but I'm no expert.



    I'm not a garden artist, but the reason I was asking was because both 6010/6011 infuse hydrogen into the weld and if you place a weld in mineral oil you can see the difference between 6010/6011 and 7018 clearly. This has nothing to do with keeping 7018 in an oven. AFAICT, that's a separate topic in itself. Do you really get it?
    Well Ive never had HAC from 6010. Some weldors even wash or reccomend watering 6010.
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