Yield vs. Fatigue - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by Brand X View Post
    I know Sam, and those cows he was milking were bulls. Happy cows as he likes to say..
    Yeah, pour that on your corn flakes, why don't cha. Or just enjoy a tall cold glassful

  2. #27
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    I only pay attention to expiration dates that matter

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    Gawd do I remember The Happy Cow Chick

    'Bout as good as landing on your happy *** when I fell off the dam bunk bed thingy

  3. #28
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    I only pay attention to expiration dates that matter

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    Gawd do I remember The Happy Cow Chick

    'Bout as good as landing on your happy *** when I fell off the dam bunk bed thingy
    The ones on products that will NEVER see their expiration date.

    jrw159

  4. #29
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    I sucked it up, and bit the bullet. Added the steenkin' crossmember

    Cylinder stalled against a "load"

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    ZEEEEEERO DEFLECTION

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    BUT...…... There's always a but...……

    I got her all hooked up, and ready to run off to the Uranus Proving Grounds for a little test spin.

    Dam hydraulics on the jaw are so jerky it could loosen all your fillings

    Raises smooth, lowers like it's got some sorta palsy.

    I knew I had some issues earlier, but sorta put it off for later

    Anyways tried the usual...……….Switched the cylinder out for a known good cylinder, reversed hose connections, changed tractor remotes......nothing helped.

    Remove the cylinder from the grapple, and it runs smooth as a baby's bottom. We got sumpin' goin' on here

    I think I gotta proportioning problem, which I guess is a flow problem. I'm not into hydraulics so I don't know crap.

    BUT I DO HAVE A THEORY One of those theories straight from Uranus

    The cylinder is mounted at a 10* angle, I verified it today.

    From my pressure research, I know that this reduces the ability of the cylinder to do work at that angle. Only puts out about 1400# of force.

    Taking 2+2, and coming up with 5 I'm thinking the proportioning thingy in the valve is being fooled.

    The weight of the grapple jaw is somewhere around 200#, but it's magnified by the cylinder angle. Maybe as much as 5 fold, possibly making the valve think it's somewhere on the order of 1000#. So the dam valve is altering the flow in a bad way.

    My thinking (watch out here, this could get dangerous ) is that I'm needing some flow restrictors on one, or both lines.

    My Oliver has some weeeeeeerd hydraulics.....they're always under full pressure. Tractor running, tractor shut down. Makes hooking up hoses a positive PITA. The manual even has a special sequence for hooking up hoses. Apply pressure to one line, and hook up the other line that has no pressure on it. I've hated this feature for 20yrs

    My other tractors run like any other normal tractor. Shut them down, apply the valve levers, and the lines de-pressurize. Eazy Peezy.

    Did Oliver do this as a safety feature??????????????? Dunno, but it is how it was designed.

    Anyways, I might hook up the grapple hydraulics to one of the other tractors, and see if they run it smooth. Otherwise it's a trip to Tulsa to give money to the Hydraulic Dood I guess.

    That flimsy little cotter pin is only in there for testing purposes, just so ya know (grin)

  5. #30
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    It's probably in a slight bind, causing jerking in the one direction. Otherwise, if it is a distribution thing, adjustable flow controls on that side will work to even out the distribution.

  6. #31
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    It's probably in a slight bind, causing jerking in the one direction. Otherwise, if it is a distribution thing, adjustable flow controls on that side will work to even out the distribution.
    We (had to call K'kins in for a consultation) thought of a possible bind due to the really tight angles.

    When the ports are open, no pressure held in the cylinder, hoses disconnected...……..the arm moves smoothly thru its entire arc, both up and down when moved manually.

    Stopping the arms at any point in the arc, and manually lifting the arms creates slop in the pins. In other words, the pins are free to move at all positions, so far as I can tell,, there's no binding.

    So, we've eliminated (hopefully correctly) any possibility of classic cylinder bind, and mechanical bind.

    Hydraulic supply place ought to be open by now, I'll give them a call.

    I hate the idea of an adjustable restrictor, they get real expensive real fast. I'm hoping a simple restricted orifice will do the job at about $5 a pop.

  7. #32
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    If it's not needed in a huge rush, surplus center should have them at pretty reasonable prices.

  8. #33
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post

    My Oliver has some weeeeeeerd hydraulics.....

    Anyways, I might hook up the grapple hydraulics to one of the other tractors, and see if they run it smooth.

    Have you tried this yet??

  9. #34
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by Bistineau View Post
    Have you tried this yet??
    Hell I just now got off the phone with the idiots over in Tulsa. Called a bunch of places, and IF they knew what I was talking about, they couldn't get it

    So no...……. Haven't swapped tractors yet

    You can get the dam things on Ebay, so what's the mystery with the local guys

    THESE STUPID THINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! https://www.farmandfleet.com/product...4-57af6c7a4733

    If I had my stinkin' lathe up and running, I'd just make a threaded plug with a stinkin' hole in it

    Can do it on the mill, but it's a PITA, and involves hand threading

  10. #35
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    And I really can't use any tractor but the Oliver. It's the only one with good steering, and good tires that can withstand running in the stumps, limbs, etc.

  11. #36
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    But, just to satisfy my sick curiosity, I'm gonna hook it to the Allis. And if it runs right then I know the Oliver needs work on the valves WHICH ARE BURIED DEEP INSIDE THE STINKIN' TRANSMISSION/HYDRO HOUSING

  12. #37
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    This is like slamming yer pecker in a door...……….repeatedly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  13. #38
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Might just buy a stinkin' union, cut a plug to size on the mill, press fit the bastard inside the union, and drill a small hole in it

  14. #39
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    The world isn't full of MORONS

    One guy calls back, and says they have restrictors. Couple of boxes of the things, because nobody buys them anymore (??)

    Anyways,, they're "blanks". Solid swivel fitting, and you drill your own hole to match your flow needs. Start small, and enlarge the hole as needed.

    THIS IS WHY WE'RE FALLING BEHIND OTHER COUNTRIES...…...NOBODY DOES ANYTHING ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So, it's off to Tulsa in the AM

  15. #40
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Good luck Sam.
    Jerry


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  16. #41
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersamm View Post
    But, just to satisfy my sick curiosity, I'm gonna hook it to the Allis. And if it runs right then I know the Oliver needs work on the valves WHICH ARE BURIED DEEP INSIDE THE STINKIN' TRANSMISSION/HYDRO HOUSING
    Yeah do that first to make sure whether the problem is with the Oliver or if it is with the design of your grapple or some other hydraulic problem that has not occurred to you yet.. Might save you a long drive to buy what you don't need. At least operating it on a different hydraulic system, even if you can't use that tractor for it, will give you a different perspective as to what may be the problem. Also, maybe swap the cylinder orientation, flip it end for end to see what that does for you. I kind of think you may have it installed backwards from the way it should be. A cylinder like that produces more force extending than it does retracting.

  17. #42
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    I'm no help. The only thing I'm sure of is that if I apply my old brain to this problem it will "yield to fatigue."

    How ya doin' Samm? I don't come around here much anymore. When you lose the ability to run a decent bead your interest the subject tends to fade.

  18. #43
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by oldandslow View Post
    I'm no help. The only thing I'm sure of is that if I apply my old brain to this problem it will "yield to fatigue."

    How ya doin' Samm? I don't come around here much anymore. When you lose the ability to run a decent bead your interest the subject tends to fade.
    Doing fairly well, thanks. Glaucoma is setting in. Have a solid milky ring around the outer circumference of my iris's. And seeing is getting a bit difficult.....like there's a halo around everything. Have to get it tended to I guess.

    I feel the same as you do. There will come a time when it isn't doable, and I'll just plain lose interest.

    Most annoying is the growing inability to focus (by focus, I mean actually pay attention) to the puddle. I just don't seem to concentrate like I used to. Dunno if it's lack of interest, or the growing blindness thing.

    Do know that I really can't stand to weld anymore. Tired of the work. Muscle loss doesn't help.....your upper body deteriorates over time.


    I plan to go down swinging though

  19. #44
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Got the "blank" restrictors on Saturday.

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    I figured about 1/16 ought to do the trick, and nearly got through the material when the bit broke. Leetle holes are a PITA.

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Size:  130.2 KB Couldn't get a grip on the bit to back it out, so another hole was drilled next to the failed attempt. Doesn't matter if the hole is centered.

    The plug portion of the fitting is near 3/4" thick, and a word of caution. DRILL IT OUT IN TWO STEPS

    Larger, stiffer, bit most of the way through.

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    Then final size bit the last 1/8"

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    I found this stuff hard to drill. I have no idea what kind of steel it is, but it's pretty tough.

    Anyways, you wind up with a stepped orifice.

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    It took two sizings to reach optimal cylinder control. I started out at 1/16 (.062), and made another part (so I'd have two for comparison) with a 5/64 (.078) orifice. The larger hole was the ticket.

    I didn't have any centering drills on hand, so had to rely strictly on a center punch. If the center punched dimple is irregular, it will grab the drill bit, and snap it when using these tiny bits. Turn the spindle by hand to feel for irregularities, if you feel the bit catch, abandon that hole, and go to a new area to drill.

    Interesting stuff.

    You're balancing the system. If too restricted, the pump works harder, even though cylinder control is better. Remove some restriction and the pump works better, but you have to live with the cylinder running a bit faster. It's a compromise.

    Opposite of what I figured...…...adding restriction to the base of the cylinder did the trick. Intuition would lead you to restrict the outflow, not the inflow. But, from what I gather...…..it's a matter of where your system derives its 'pilot signal', or something like that. I'm not fully understanding how it actually works, nor do I care. All I care is that it does work. Switch ports when you do this. It will work on either the base port, or the rod port...…….just depends on your system, and the configuration of the "load" as perceived by your proportioning valve.

    This will work with a linear actuator (cylinder), but is NOT recommended for a rotary actuator (hyd motor). Restrictors generate a ton of heat because the fluid works harder to pass through the small orifice, and this type of situation is only suitable for intermittent use, not the steady flow required to run a motor.

    Working pressure isn't affected, only flow. Flow is speed...…..pressure is work. Your cylinder will still have the same power it had before restricting the flow.

    Total cost was about $12 for the two restrictors. Not bad really.
    Last edited by farmersamm; 08-13-2018 at 09:40 AM.

  20. #45
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Glad the restrictor helped. About 30 yrs ago my old boss had a tractor that would basically free fall the bucket. Not cool for loading things carefully

    He had to do the same - buy it and drill it.
    Dave J.

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  21. #46
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    I thought this was one of Sam's advisory threads on him talkin Kkins into yielding to his desire only to learn when he was finished talkin she was too fatigued.

  22. #47
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Sam- Get the eyes fettled. Too important not to have working.

    Glaucoma is nothing to fool with. Cataracts, they just plug in new equipment.

  23. #48
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimm View Post
    Sam- Get the eyes fettled. Too important not to have working.

    Glaucoma is nothing to fool with. Cataracts, they just plug in new equipment.
    OH MAN, THAT WAS DUMB. I WAS THINKING GLAUCOMA WAS CATARACTS.

    It's just cataracts.

  24. #49
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    Re: Yield vs. Fatigue

    Well, I was going to tell you I was sorry about your eye condition. Yeah, cataracts can be fixed and pretty easily now. I got 'em but they are small and slow growing and aren't causing me any problems. Other than the very far sightedness that comes to people with originally good vision I have no problems and can see quite well with my progressive bifocals. If I live long enough I'll have to have them fixed.

    My shaky hands have improved a great deal and I am able to draw again fairly well. I guess my medication has finally had an effect after three years on it. Muscle and endurance loss has become the real problem now but it's just something that happens as you age. It can be slowed down some but it's not going to stop. I fiddle with making or fixing some small thing now and then with the acetylene torch but that's it. I can't hold out to actually do anything of any size anymore.

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