quick electrical question?
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  1. #1

    Question quick electrical question?

    hey, just got a quick question here. looking to install a 240 volt outlet for my new ahp alpha tig 200x. the unit requires a 40 amp breaker with the 240 volt outlet. my question is should i be using 6-2 or 8-2 wire to run the dedicated plug? i believe i can get away with using 8-2 because its only gonna be about 2 feet away from the sub panel in my garage so its not going far but on my electricians calculator on my phone. it says i should be using #6. any thoughts? thanks shawn
    Last edited by shawnd; 07-24-2017 at 07:17 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    you probably only need #10 if it is a dedicated plug. The electrical code lets you over rate the breaker to the conductor size based on duty cycle. That being said, if you could afford it, I would wire it with 6 gauge. It will afford you more flexibility with that circuit should you need to either get a larger welder or if you decide to run something other than a welder on it.
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  3. #3

    Re: quick electrical question?

    thanks louie, i honestly didn't even think of that. i had some #8 laying around from when my house was built and was just looking to use some of that, but to save my self any headaches in the future if i do decide to upgrade. or even decide to put something else other then a welder in that spot that requires more, ill probably just go pick some #6 up. i know its probably over kill but hey, beats installing, ripping out, and re-installing wire more the once lol

  4. #4
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnd View Post
    hey, just got a quick question here. looking to install a 240 volt outlet for my new ahp alpha tig 200x. the unit requires a 40 amp breaker with the 240 volt outlet. my question is should i be using 6-2 or 8-2 wire to run the dedicated plug? i believe i can get away with using 8-2 because its only gonna be about 2 feet away from the sub panel in my garage so its not going far but on my electricians calculator on my phone. it says i should be using #6. any thoughts? thanks shawn

    Article 630.11(A) states "the ampacity of the supply conductors shall be not less tha the I 1eff value on the rating plate...." it goes on to state what you do if you dont have the I1eff rating. You take the rated primary current and multiply by chart 630.11(A). Long story short the #8 is great and the other post about using #10 is probably fine. The Breaker can be up to 200% over the I 1max rating and if they don't make a breaker that size you can go up to the next available size.
    So if the math comes to 46amps use a 50amp. I am quoting nfpa 70 2011 edition because I am too lazy to go to my truck for the 2017 edition.....but it has not changed except the article numbering maybe.

    #8 is good for 50 amps under the 75degree column. 40amps under the 60degree column. As long as all the terminals and wire insulation is 75 degree (it usually is) use the 50amp number.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Simclardy; 07-24-2017 at 08:22 PM.
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simclardy View Post
    #8 is good for 50 amps under the 75degree column. 40amps under the 60degree column. As long as all the terminals and wire insulation is 75 degree (it usually is) use the 50amp number.

    Cheers
    Article 630 aside the OP mentions 8/2 which would be NM and would fall into the 60C column.
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  6. #6
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    This is wrong. please see next couple of post.


    Nm is rated at 90° C so it falls under the 90° column but all the breakers I've seen are rated 75.
    8/2 comes in metal clad (mc) and other forms.
    Not sure what OP refers to?
    Last edited by Simclardy; 07-26-2017 at 06:50 AM. Reason: error
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    I should add that romex used to be rated 60° a long time ago.
    Last edited by Simclardy; 07-26-2017 at 06:51 AM.
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    Article 630 aside the OP mentions 8/2 which would be NM and would fall into the 60C column.

    bigb is right. I stand corrected. article 334.80 states that nm "the allowable ampacity shall not exceed that of a 60C rated conductor. THe 90C rating shall be permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment and corrections, provided the final derated ampacity does not exceed that of a 60C rated conductor."

    Sooooo it's rated for 90C but you can only use the 60C column.
    I learned something new and it's only 6:44 am, I am off to a good start today!
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  9. #9
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Looking at something like this myself. What does installing such a circuit and outlet cost these days?
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." -- Ted Nugent

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
    Looking at something like this myself. What does installing such a circuit and outlet cost these days?
    Are you hiring an electrician? Or diy? Different areas are different but I would guess 400-500. If it's bugged of a panel much less, if it's over the hills and through the woods, much more!

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
    Looking at something like this myself. What does installing such a circuit and outlet cost these days?
    If you are going to hire an electrician most times it is better to have enough work for 4-8 hours to get more efficient pricing. So if you think you might need more stuff try to get it all on the same trip. Driving to a place and doing a small job incurs
    a certain amount of minimum charges because the travel time and setup/cleanup takes away part of the working day so we must charge for that to make up what we would have made by staying on one job all day.
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Cable is chump change. Pull a couple 6's and grab a couple 50 amp breakers for when your cousins granny, uncles nephew drops dead and leaves you a Bridgeport

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    If you are going to hire an electrician most times it is better to have enough work for 4-8 hours to get more efficient pricing. So if you think you might need more stuff try to get it all on the same trip. Driving to a place and doing a small job incurs
    a certain amount of minimum charges because the travel time and setup/cleanup takes away part of the working day so we must charge for that to make up what we would have made by staying on one job all day.
    Good point. My wife was going to call one for something else to be done for the house so will definitely make it part of an already existing call.

    Should I pick up the parts myself to have it here to avoid the markup thereof? One electrician I had do other stuff (he's since been unavailable due to health reasons) told me that it's definitely better for me to buy the parts than him. True in this case or no?
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." -- Ted Nugent

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowfin View Post
    definitely better for me to buy the parts than him. True in this case or no?
    To answer your question as an electrician... not necessarily. Many times I've had customers buy parts. Probably 2-3 customers out of the last 15 years got the right parts. I always charged more for the job when a customer supplied parts.

    I also had a box truck loaded with materials. I would have had everything needed for your job on the truck. Yes I would charge a premium for those parts. I had to, inventory costs money.

    However me waiting on a customer to go pickup more or replace incorrect materials is also expensive. Double if I had to drive to pick them up.

    So if your neighbor with a pickup is doing the job you may benefit from picking up the materials. If your going to hire a full time electrician you'll probably be better off letting him do his job.

    Get a price up front. Get a price up front. Get a price up front!

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    PS I agree with Bonzoo wire it for the future.
    Tim

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Buying the parts for a broke electrician because he asked you to is you doing him a favor so he doesn't' have to front $$ for a job.

    In some cases when 90% of the cost of a job is material and I like that customer (repeat business), I'll tell them to buy the material and I'll do the work. I don't have put up $$ to do the work, and they get a deal.

    Another factor though is if they supply material, they are liable for it should there be problems/failure. If you supply a part and there is a failure, they can say it's not their responsibility to warranty it. There is some law that addresses this, which is different in most every state, but it exists in some form in all of them. Customer supplied material gets treated differently when there are problems.

    I was always willing to let a customer ask, but I almost always had problems when the job wasn't very simple material-wise. Pretty often I got my material at discount or by other means discounted (buying in massive bulk to last a few years worth of jobs), so even with my markup, the customers don't save much by supplying material anyway.

  16. #16
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    I would recommend doing it yourself or hiring a small local electrician and feel good about supporting a good job! My two cents

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  17. #17
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    the job itself is really not that hard. Stringing the conductors is easy, popping new breakers into the panel is easy, connecting it all together is easy. The tricky part for the novice is not touching something that is electrically hot so as not to electrocute yourself. I am comfortable working inside my panel, I was taught by my baby brother who is a licensed electrician. My deal with him is I do the work, and he checks my work (and fixes any deficiencies) and after, I give him beer. Its worked OK for me so far.

    If you are not comfortable inside the panel, hire a pro.
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Electrical is easy, the codes can be tricky

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simclardy View Post
    bigb is right. I stand corrected. article 334.80 states that nm "the allowable ampacity shall not exceed that of a 60C rated conductor. THe 90C rating shall be permitted to be used for ampacity adjustment and corrections, provided the final derated ampacity does not exceed that of a 60C rated conductor."

    Sooooo it's rated for 90C but you can only use the 60C column.
    I learned something new and it's only 6:44 am, I am off to a good start today!
    It's OK that you have to be corrected. I never see electricians agreeing on electric codes on WW, by the many electricians on WW over the years which have been in disagreement, most of America must be wired wrong.
    Last edited by tackit; 08-11-2017 at 09:07 AM.

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Lol that's funny. Inspector included

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  21. #21

    Re: quick electrical question?

    Larger wire absorbs heat from the plug, that tends to get a little warm.

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Name:  when-roofers-think-they-are-electricians-14939330.png
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    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by HT2-4956 View Post
    Name:  when-roofers-think-they-are-electricians-14939330.png
Views: 200
Size:  166.1 KB
    Lol

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    Re: quick electrical question?

    The cost will vary by area and specifics of the job. Where I live you pay a premium just to get one to show up. There is a lot of new construction going on so they are not real anxious to spend an hour doing a small job.

    If I can put in a 50 amp circuit 2 feet from the breaker box in 60 minutes, an electrician should be able to do the same.

    BTW; My AHP 200 is running off #6 just so that if I ever get a bigger machine I can swap in a larger breaker and a higher amp socket. The difference in cost as minuscule for a 15 foot run.

    Dan
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  25. #25

    Re: quick electrical question?

    Quote Originally Posted by dbstoo View Post
    The cost will vary by area and specifics of the job. Where I live you pay a premium just to get one to show up. There is a lot of new construction going on so they are not real anxious to spend an hour doing a small job.

    If I can put in a 50 amp circuit 2 feet from the breaker box in 60 minutes, an electrician should be able to do the same.

    BTW; My AHP 200 is running off #6 just so that if I ever get a bigger machine I can swap in a larger breaker and a higher amp socket. The difference in cost as minuscule for a 15 foot run.

    Dan
    Did you bond the box though? An electrician has to follow the proper code. That often requires an extra twenty bucks in parts that the home owner will not even know he needs.

    Homeowners will hook up a new jacuzzi or pool pump and not realize that the ground wire was connected to both, but the screw holding the lug had corroded off one of them. So they just hook it up without bonding it.

    Sincerely,

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