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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Brethren, Mi
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    653

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by pat h View Post
    I also should have said 250' of 1/2" is to much even looped
    Wouldn't it depend on how much was needed? There is 100 ft on the main to a circuit. There is 120 or so but some of it is 3/4 and most of the turns are that. I was trouble shooting a tool the other day, I had the reg set at 135 and following that, the secondary is 60 ft of 1/2 pipe, 50 ft of hose reel, it had 2 q connects, 1 of which is old automotive, 4 3/8 hose barbs plus the connections and swivel from the reel. 120# to a 6 inch DA wide open. (have to dial it down) How much better would it be if I made every piece in it 1 size bigger?

  2. #27

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    0.25 x 0.25 x 3.14 x 250 x 12 = 588.75 cubic inches inside the pipe.
    If you have 150 P.S.I., and you are loosing 30 P.S.I., that is about two atmospheres or twice the volume of air that is in the pipe.
    So; 588.75 + 588.75 = 1,177.50 cubic inches there are 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot so you are loosing about 11/16 of a cubic foot. Almost six gallons an hour.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  3. #28

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Half inch pipe is a bitch at 150 psi. You need Rectoseal or Leak lock to get it completely sealed. The regular oil based pipe dope and Teflon tape fail from my own experience on black and galvanized pipe. If you do not have unions everywhere, it is a pain in the butt to take it apart.

    Everyone is running PEX now for high-pressure pneumatic. The other day someone put an electric heater underneath a high-pressure PEX line, and nothing happened. I was surprised, but the PEX was not getting that hot.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Ceres, California
    Posts
    3,371

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    If you are used to installing water pipe. When installing air lines use one size larger wrench and tighten 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. many years ago. I put in a line that ran through three small buildings to supply a paint booth.
    Had to split it back apart and retighten using a larger pipe wrench to get the joints to all seal. Kept a down hill slope the whole way so water would not pool and rust the line. Glass cleaner and dish soap make good leak finder.

  5. #30
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    Jan 2004
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    653

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Ok , I have isolated it to this pipe. Great calculations. Is this 6 gallons of air or 6 gallons of compressed air? Just as an estimate, how much does this leak cost?

  6. #31

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    Ok , I have isolated it to this pipe. Great calculations. Is this 6 gallons of air or 6 gallons of compressed air? Just as an estimate, how much does this leak cost?
    That is six gallons of air at normal atmospheric pressure.

    Not much really. I have sprayed down large systems with Mr. Blue, and I was surprised at how much leakage there was with pressure over 120 P.S.I. Keep the pressure lower, and nothing comes out go over 120, and you get small leaks. I am talking about almost every joint at 175 had some foam that took a while to form, like five to twenty minutes. If you use leak lock or Rectoseal, it tends to take care of it. Also, bushings tend to be a problem it is better to go with a female to female reducer than a male to female bushing.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  7. #32
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    Jan 2004
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    Brethren, Mi
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    Re: Air loss in pipe

    If I don't forget am going to shut the breaker off tonight and keep the system all on. I have a couple joints blowing small bubbles but some simply making foam as you said, that doesn't bother me. I used green stuff dope and may have to get something else. I tested most of it in the ceiling when I installed it, found a few joints at ground level I probably didn't. I might go back and check the whole thing, I wouldn't have a problem with bitty ones but the comp comes on a time or 2 when I am not using air. Not sure exactly how much but may test.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Forest Grove OR
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    319

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    I'ts not the volume that matters, its the cycle rate you were after. You indicated it drops 30 pounds an hour, and takes a 50 pound drop to cycle. 50/30 = 1.67 hours. WIth nothing being used, you can expect it to run about 14 times a day due to the leak.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Montana, USA
    Posts
    428

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    ... the comp comes on a time or 2 when I am not using air.
    If you time a cycle from one compressor start to the next compressor start (or compressor stop to the next compressor stop) while not using air, you can find out how many cycles there will be in a day due to leaks. Time how long the compressor runs during one of these cycles and you can figure out how much energy is used each cycle. Measuring the amps would be best, but real horsepower of the motor would get you close. This has to be the true horsepower, not the "madison avenue horsepower" that has crept into much equipment like shop vacs, compressors, etc. And the with the cost of electricity in your area, you can find out how much these leaks are costing.
    Last edited by pin2hot; 01-08-2018 at 01:02 PM.
    Tim

  10. #35
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    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brethren, Mi
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    653

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Yes, I just turned the comp off right at noon. I have the sections I am interested in isolated. Your suggestion is exactly what I am going to do, I was kind of fooling around on the forum in a slow spot just seeing who came up with what, who could come with a decent guess. I was rounding up a few numbers to help.
    I can back in a while back, must had not used air for a couple days and the breaker had tripped due to an old start cap. The system was empty. I have a hose reel leaks a little when the pressure gets low, hi its tight so don't know what happened when along the way. I have service valves ahead of any regs, I have it isolated to the piping now.
    I Had the comps and tanks isolated the other day, 1 joint as William said, foam on 200 gallons of tanks and didn't move the needle in 24 hrs.
    I have one guy gone, 1 working elsewhere and I don't plan on using air, see if I make it thru the day that way and will see what kind of drop there is in the morning.
    I have 2 comps, a 3 hp and a 5,, really about 4.5 as a slave. I leave the breaker off to the slave, I really don't need it with all the jugs on. Its a backup and in case of some sandblast or multiple men for body work, really havnt had the demand for a couple years, used it while I serviced the motor on my primary. I like the 3, its just right. With its own tank not really quite enough for body work without fussy management but great with lotso tank and uses longer runs less starts and I am on rural service, cant see it starting.
    If I had a single stand alone a 5 could slide me by, a 7.5 would be ideal. I really could do anything I needed with it with limited sandblasting. Not such a deal, I havnt blasted anything substantial for a couple years. I have an engine drive on my truck makes 30, I can piggy back if I would need to but I did a set of tractor rims all electric without a problem.
    Some of these pics are older, been modified a bit since.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by Sberry; 01-08-2018 at 01:47 PM.

  11. #36

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    Yes, I just turned the comp off right at noon. I have the sections I am interested in isolated. Your suggestion is exactly what I am going to do, I was kind of fooling around on the forum in a slow spot just seeing who came up with what, who could come with a decent guess. I was rounding up a few numbers to help.
    I can back in a while back, must had not used air for a couple days and the breaker had tripped due to an old start cap. The system was empty. I have a hose reel leaks a little when the pressure gets low, hi its tight so don't know what happened when along the way. I have service valves ahead of any regs, I have it isolated to the piping now.
    I Had the comps and tanks isolated the other day, 1 joint as William said, foam on 200 gallons of tanks and didn't move the needle in 24 hrs.
    I have one guy gone, 1 working elsewhere and I don't plan on using air, see if I make it thru the day that way and will see what kind of drop there is in the morning.
    I have 2 comps, a 3 hp and a 5,, really about 4.5 as a slave. I leave the breaker off to the slave, I really don't need it with all the jugs on. Its a backup and in case of some sandblast or multiple men for body work, really havnt had the demand for a couple years, used it while I serviced the motor on my primary. I like the 3, its just right. With its own tank not really quite enough for body work without fussy management but great with lotso tank and uses longer runs less starts and I am on rural service, cant see it starting.
    If I had a single stand alone a 5 could slide me by, a 7.5 would be ideal. I really could do anything I needed with it with limited sandblasting. Not such a deal, I havnt blasted anything substantial for a couple years. I have an engine drive on my truck makes 30, I can piggy back if I would need to but I did a set of tractor rims all electric without a problem.
    Some of these pics are older, been modified a bit since.
    If you are running a piston compressor with a check relief valve, and non-synthetic oil, you can get intermetent carbon balls in the check valve that will have the compressor repeatedly start and stop until it takes out a breaker. I only use synthetic now because of that.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  12. #37
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    Jan 2004
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    Brethren, Mi
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    653

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    I do have synthetic oil, its working good. I have the breaker off, its not leaking. Now so far I have lost about 3# in close to 6 hours with all the mains on. At that rate about 12# of charge a day at full pressure. I need to see exactly what my turn on is. Off is 150, it seems to have worked down over the years maybe. Seems not all that long ago it was 165. Way back seems it was set 175. Next time I have it out might see if I can turn it up a little.
    No auto drains. Each vessel has a bottom drain from a valve tied to a common hose thru the wall. The drain tube was all scrap 3/8 water line. I found enough pieces that I had to make exactly 1 flare to hook it up.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Sberry; 01-08-2018 at 06:54 PM.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
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    3,182

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    wouldnt it be simpler to just fix the leaks in the pipe than go through all this fancy figuring on how much it costs to run the compressor with the leaks?

  14. #39
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    Brethren, Mi
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    653

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    It really was curiosity to see how much these types of leaks really cost and may just fix some simple easy ones. Dammit, forgot to turn off the breaker, it pumped back up. It must have caused a cycle or someone used the air last night.
    There are a couple reasons for this excercize. It doesn't cost anything besides turning off a couple valves and reading a couple gages. It will be interesting to see how closely it matches the math. It will be a good comparison about how close it matches the speculation.
    How do the losses compare to other things, are people who smoke worried about 20 cents a day in air cost, or compared to a 3$ cup of coffee or letting a car idle for 5 minutes?
    Last edited by Sberry; 01-09-2018 at 10:58 AM.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Posts
    250

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Don't forget to check for leaks at the regulators (vent holes if they have them). Leaking diaphragms are common on old regulators.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,182

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    It really was curiosity to see how much these types of leaks really cost and may just fix some simple easy ones. Dammit, forgot to turn off the breaker, it pumped back up. It must have caused a cycle or someone used the air last night.
    There are a couple reasons for this excercize. It doesn't cost anything besides turning off a couple valves and reading a couple gages. It will be interesting to see how closely it matches the math. It will be a good comparison about how close it matches the speculation.
    How do the losses compare to other things, are people who smoke worried about 20 cents a day in air cost, or compared to a 3$ cup of coffee or letting a car idle for 5 minutes?
    all true, but funny you bring up the cigarette cost, a friend smokes 2 packs a day at $10.00 a pack, when I told him he pisses $7300.00 a year away on that crap he almost fell over...it is interesting to see what things cost us each day when you break it down or what things cost us each year when we add them up..a eye opener on some of them..

  17. #42
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    Jan 2004
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    Brethren, Mi
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    653

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Yes, I have service valves ahead of the hydrants and equipment. I was isolating the pipe. I have tall ceilings, gives it another twist for mechanicing pleasure.

  18. #43
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    Jan 2004
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    Brethren, Mi
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    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Ok, I needed to pump a tire but had it charged and breaker off. Lost 10# in 27 hours with 200 gallon capacity. From 145 psi to 135. I can probably fix half the leaks from the ground. It isn't much. Maybe 2 minutes run time a day. 5 cents in wasted power?

  19. #44

    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Sberry View Post
    Ok, I needed to pump a tire but had it charged and breaker off. Lost 10# in 27 hours with 200 gallon capacity. From 145 psi to 135. I can probably fix half the leaks from the ground. It isn't much. Maybe 2 minutes run time a day. 5 cents in wasted power?
    You lost 133 gallons at 15 psi. Not much actually.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  20. #45
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    Jan 2004
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    Brethren, Mi
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    Re: Air loss in pipe

    I can likely fix a couple of them easily too. I am not going to do much about it. That was why I was trying to see the real cost to some extent. It was a fair amount of work to chase it down to perfection.

  21. #46
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    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Meh..

    It’s good for the compressors to run

    Keeps em healthy



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  22. #47
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    Re: Air loss in pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
    Meh..

    It’s good for the compressors to run

    Keeps em healthy



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