AC 225 copper to aluminum ?

[BradTN]

I searched, but did not find the answer to this.

Does anyone know what year Lincoln switched from copper to aluminum windings in the 225 "buzzbox" ?

[ccawgc]

Go to www.lincolnelectric.com and use their ask the expert and ask.
Then if you get an answer report back here. Or just give tech support a call.
I think they switched from copper after changing from jack/plugs to a range switch.
Switching also required the addition of the cooling fan.
I am guessing code 3961 and below are copper. The transformer part number made a change at that point. The switch was made a long time ago

[kctgb]

Originally Posted by BradTN

I searched, but did not find the answer to this.

Does anyone know what year Lincoln switched from copper to aluminum windings in the 225 "buzzbox" ?

In 1977 Lincoln started using copper coated aluminum wire. They also had to install a fan to keep the aluminum wire from melting. The 225 buz box welders that don't have a fan when turned on should be made of copper wire. I have an old one made in 1959 or early in 1960 and it doesn't have a fan. It welds so much better than my friends 225 with aluminum wire. I will never get rid of it. I got it at a garage sale for $15.00 because the owner didn't know what he had. It's also a good bit heavier than the aluminum welders.

[SuperArc]

Originally Posted by kctgb

In 1977 Lincoln started using copper coated aluminum wire. They also had to install a fan to keep the aluminum wire from melting. The 225 buz box welders that don't have a fan when turned on should be made of copper wire. I have an old one made in 1959 or early in 1960 and it doesn't have a fan. It welds so much better than my friends 225 with aluminum wire. I will never get rid of it. I got it at a garage sale for $15.00 because the owner didn't know what he had. It's also a good bit heavier than the aluminum welders.

I'd like to know what the weight difference is because I have one that only about 6 years old and it's heavier than a constipated turd. You'd think that going to aluminum would make the buzz box so much lighter.

[BradTN]

Originally Posted by kctgb

In 1977 Lincoln started using copper coated aluminum wire. They also had to install a fan to keep the aluminum wire from melting. The 225 buz box welders that don't have a fan when turned on should be made of copper wire. I have an old one made in 1959 or early in 1960 and it doesn't have a fan. It welds so much better than my friends 225 with aluminum wire. I will never get rid of it. I got it at a garage sale for $15.00 because the owner didn't know what he had. It's also a good bit heavier than the aluminum welders.

1977...so Lincoln started going down hill after the bicentennial. Copper coated aluminum wire...seems somewhat deceptive...like, "If someone opens one of these up, maybe they won't notice".

kctgb,nice score on the $15. buzzbox ! My Dad had the old 180 with the external plug in taps. I wish I still had that machine. It was sold at a moving auction in about '87.

I have 2 of these... an early '70's AC and AFAIK a '90's AC/DC. The first 2 digit's in the code is the year of manufacture(?) I don't need either one of them, so I'm considering selling one,or both, and wanted to know which one to get rid of first. Maybe I should swap the copper transformer out of the AC unit into the AC/DC machine and keep that one. My impression from minimal use of the later model buzzbox is that it doesn't weld as well as the older AC only unit. Copper transformer windings, a fan, and AC/DC would be the best combo I guess.

So, pending a dissenting opinion, we can consider "1977" to be the answer to my/the question. Thanks.

[SuperArc]

Here's the email I received today regarding Lincoln's buzz box type welders. I find it direct and to the point about the windings, but vague with his answer of "they were always aluminum.". The guy that responded back went by "Bill." his message is in bold. My original question is at the very bottom. Anyway, this is from the factory:

"Thank you for your inquiry through our website. We know that you have a choice when selecting
welding products and we are glad you have chosen Lincoln Electric®.

Hello ,

Thank you for your inquiry through our website and the opportunity to assist
you with your concern. My name is Bill and I am part of the Customer Service
Team at the Lincoln Electric Company.

To answer your question.

A very large majority of them are aluminum. They were always aluminum. *About 1 % have some copper in them like 50 cycle units and special versions.

Thank you for choosing Lincoln Electric for your welding needs. We appreciate
your continued business so please contact us if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,

Bill

Service and Product Information Group
Toll-free (North America) 888-935-3877
The Lincoln Electric Company
Cleveland, Ohio USA


Get the latest news from Lincoln Electric
- sign-up for our e-mail newsletter at:
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/LEExt...s/default.aspx

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agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
deleting it from your computer.

Thank you,

The Lincoln Electric Company

************************************************** ****************************
-----Original Message-----

From: XXXXXX
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 04:34
To: productquestions@lincolnelectric.com
Subject: LE Site Contact

The following was collected from Lincoln Electric Ask the Experts:

Name: XXXXX
Company Name:
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--------------------------------------
Comment: I own an AC-DC-225/125 SMAW Lincoln that was built around 2005. I've heard that it is built with "aluminum" windings and not copper. Is this true?

If its true, approximately what year did Lincoln make the switch on the "buzz box" type welders from copper to aluminum?

Thank you.


----------------------------------------I
Product Number:*
Serial Number:*
Code Number:*

[kctgb]

I have looked at more than a few and if it has a fan it most likely has copper coated aluminum wire. If it doesn't have a fan all the ones I've seen are copper. If you find one that's copper grab it if it's cheap. I have run my buz box over the duty cycle many times and it just keeps on working. I can't say the same for my friends buz box with aluminum wire.

[BradTN]

Originally Posted by SuperArc

Here's the email I received today regarding Lincoln's buzz box type welders. I find it direct and to the point about the windings, but vague with his answer of "they were always aluminum.". The guy that responded back went by "Bill." [/I]

It does seem like a vague answer, doesn't it. As if Bill doesn't know for sure or would rather not discuss the issue. I need to open both of my machines up and see what's in there. Sort of like digging for gold !

[SuperArc]

Originally Posted by BradTN

It does seem like a vague answer, doesn't it. As if Bill doesn't know for sure or would rather not discuss the issue. !

Exactly what I thought.

[kctgb]

Originally Posted by BradTN

It does seem like a vague answer, doesn't it. As if Bill doesn't know for sure or would rather not discuss the issue. I need to open both of my machines up and see what's in there. Sort of like digging for gold !

Just remember it looks like copper but it's probably copper coated aluminum wire. Try to find an end of a wire and take a file to it. If it's aluminum you will see it fast. Please make sure it's unplugged. The new miller thunderbolt/stickmate machines have aluminum wire in them and they run pretty well. I just don't think the aluminum wire will take the heat as well as copper.

[Scott Young]

If you look at the question SA asked it was concerning the AC/DC 225/125 model not the AC225.

Originally Posted by SuperArc

Here's the email I received today regarding Lincoln's buzz box type welders. I find it direct and to the point about the windings, but vague with his answer of "they were always aluminum.". The guy that responded back went by "Bill." his message is in bold. My original question is at the very bottom. Anyway, this is from the factory:

"Thank you for your inquiry through our website. We know that you have a choice when selecting
welding products and we are glad you have chosen Lincoln Electric®.

Hello ,

Thank you for your inquiry through our website and the opportunity to assist
you with your concern. My name is Bill and I am part of the Customer Service
Team at the Lincoln Electric Company.

To answer your question.

A very large majority of them are aluminum. They were always aluminum. *About 1 % have some copper in them like 50 cycle units and special versions.

Thank you for choosing Lincoln Electric for your welding needs. We appreciate
your continued business so please contact us if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,

Bill

Service and Product Information Group
Toll-free (North America) 888-935-3877
The Lincoln Electric Company
Cleveland, Ohio USA


Get the latest news from Lincoln Electric
- sign-up for our e-mail newsletter at:
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/LEExt...s/default.aspx

************************************************** ****************************
Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged
and confidential and protected from disclosure. *If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or
agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
deleting it from your computer.

Thank you,

The Lincoln Electric Company

************************************************** ****************************
-----Original Message-----

From: XXXXXX
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2012 04:34
To: productquestions@lincolnelectric.com
Subject: LE Site Contact

The following was collected from Lincoln Electric Ask the Experts:

Name: XXXXX
Company Name:
Address:
Apt/Suite:
City:
State/Province: California
Zip Code: XXXXX
Country: United States
Phone:
Email Address: XXXXX

--------------------------------------
Comment: I own an AC-DC-225/125 SMAW Lincoln that was built around 2005. I've heard that it is built with "aluminum" windings and not copper. Is this true?

If its true, approximately what year did Lincoln make the switch on the "buzz box" type welders from copper to aluminum?

Thank you.


----------------------------------------I
Product Number:*
Serial Number:*
Code Number:*

[BradTN]

Originally Posted by Scott Young

If you look at the question SA asked it was concerning the AC/DC 225/125 model not the AC225.

Yes, I see that. I would think that a switch to aluminum would apply to both types of units at the same time. Or are you making a point that I'm not getting ?

The vagueness of the answer from Lincoln seems to indicate a lack of knowledge or a desire to dismiss the idea that the quality of these machines has declined. Probably, very few people open up their welder to see what's in there. Not too long ago I saw an AC/DC machine on CL that was listed as something like "overheated/damaged" and it looked like a late model machine. It is true, one rarely hears of one of these welders,copper or aluminum, failing.

[DSW]

Super it's not so much the alum windings, but the heavy steel core that adds up to all the weight.

[SundownIII]

If anyone would know what a "constipated turd" weighs, it would be SuperArc.

Could be why he's so full of it.

[AndyA]

Melting point
Aluminum = 1220F
Copper = 1984F

Resistance
Aluminum = 28.2 nanoohm-meter
Copper = 16.78 nanoohm-meter

Thermal Conductivity
Aluminum = 237 watts/meter/k
Copper = 401 watts/meter/k

So copper takes another 750F before it melts, conducts electricity roughly 70% better, and conducts heat almost twice as good. There is a difference.

[TxDoc]

Copper Clad Aluminum

Typical Physical Properties
Copper clad aluminum is a composite wire consisting of an aluminum core clad with ETP copper. Even though the material is 90% aluminum, the wire has high frequency electrical properties equal to solid copper. MWS Wire Industries produces a broad line or round, flat, square, and rectangular copper clad aluminum wire. Copper clad bare, plated, and film insulated. Copper clad aluminum is widely used in applications requiring the conductivity of copper while retaining much of the weight advantages of aluminum. A.C.

conductivity > 5 MHz....Equal to solid copper
D.C. conductivity - 65% IACS
Density - .1199 lbs / cubic inch
% copper by volume - 10% + 2%
% copper by weight - 26.8% + 2%
Coefficient of thermal expansion - 22.9 ppm / °C
Tensile strength - Annealed - 16,500 psi
Tensile strength - Hard - 23,5000 psi
Yield strength - Annealed - 12,000 psi
Yield strength - Hard - 21,6000 psi
% elongation - Annealed - 15%
% elongation - Hard - 2.5%

(From MWS Wire Industries)

[SuperArc]

The buzz box has been around since Noah was a Petty Officer in the Jewish Navy. Since they went to aluminum or copper clad aluminum, has the unit itself ever received a reputation as being unreliable in any way? On the contrary, I think it still maintains probably the ultra reliable reputation as being a solidly built and "bullet proof" machine in its class.

Anything will eventually fail if the duty cycle is routinely ignored and the machine is pushed harder than what it was designed to do, regardless of wire type used for the windings. Maybe the older ones could be abused more, but if someone needs something tougher, the error in the first place was not buying a "bigger hammer" to begin with for that tougher project.
Just my thoughts.

[kctgb]

Originally Posted by TxDoc

Copper Clad Aluminum

Typical Physical Properties
Copper clad aluminum is a composite wire consisting of an aluminum core clad with ETP copper. Even though the material is 90% aluminum, the wire has high frequency electrical properties equal to solid copper. MWS Wire Industries produces a broad line or round, flat, square, and rectangular copper clad aluminum wire. Copper clad bare, plated, and film insulated. Copper clad aluminum is widely used in applications requiring the conductivity of copper while retaining much of the weight advantages of aluminum. A.C.

conductivity > 5 MHz....Equal to solid copper
D.C. conductivity - 65% IACS
Density - .1199 lbs / cubic inch
% copper by volume - 10% + 2%
% copper by weight - 26.8% + 2%
Coefficient of thermal expansion - 22.9 ppm / °C
Tensile strength - Annealed - 16,500 psi
Tensile strength - Hard - 23,5000 psi
Yield strength - Annealed - 12,000 psi
Yield strength - Hard - 21,6000 psi
% elongation - Annealed - 15%
% elongation - Hard - 2.5%

(From MWS Wire Industries)

Please explain why they had to put a fan in the aluminum buz box and not copper ones. I'll take the copper any day over the aluminum.

[ANVIL]

Originally Posted by kctgb

Please explain why they had to put a fan in the aluminum buz box and not copper ones. I'll take the copper any day over the aluminum.

Copper clad aluminum will carry electricity equally to solid copper. That's because electricity flows on the "skin" of the conductor. A one inch thick piece of copper or copper clad aluminum performs equally as far as conductivity and resistance. Where they differ is in heat exchange/transfer. As pointed out earlier by others, copper wins in the "heat" department vs aluminum.

[TxDoc]

Originally Posted by kctgb

Please explain why they had to put a fan in the aluminum buz box and not copper ones. I'll take the copper any day over the aluminum.

I don't know for sure. Using the "Ask The Experts" option on the LE site will probably get an answer from the source. Meaning the correct answer based on fact.

If I had to guess, I would think it was to increase the overall stability of the machine's performance over wider ambient heat range, to increase the machine's longevity, to make it a better value for the cost, to lessen the weight of the wire that now is within the machine, to decrease costs without sacrificing performance (as the total copper content is less, but flow of electrons is not inhibited), and to increase sales with dependability being a good selling point. I cannot prove that. I am just surmising that from seeing that copper cladding refers to, what benefits may come from drawing in cooler air or pushing out hotter air, what selling points may come from this and from making the machine last longer and be more predictable for the customer.

Many people just did not like the idea of electric cooling fans on cars/trucks when some manufacturers switched from belt-driven fans of the past. But, they apparently can push or pull more CFM, weigh less, are more dependable, use less fuel, and do a superior job to the older design. Consequently, you see people converting over older car/trucks to electric over belt-driven cooling fans.

Designs just change over time due to what has been learned from the past. In different ways of demand, companies attempt to get you to want, need their products. If you like the new design, better than the older one, it will appeal to you to get the new one. This may be in the form of derived demand, price demand, gross demand, joint demand, income demand, composite demand, or direct demand. In the long-run improvements mean more sales for the company and better, longer-lasting, less costly over time products for us. But, again....best to go to horse's mouth...Lincoln Electric to ask them as they changed the design.

Good luck on your search for the truth.

[BradTN]

I opened up my 2 machines to see what's in them.

The '70 model AC 225(top two pics) has copper windings and a fan. Generally seems like better quality internals and I remember it welding better than the '92.

The '92 AC/DC 225 is aluminum windings with an insulating yellow "shellac" or whatever(Not copper plated as far as I can tell) and has a (noisy) fan.

[RodJ]

Originally Posted by kctgb

Please explain why they had to put a fan in the aluminum buz box and not copper ones. I'll take the copper any day over the aluminum.

I would think it improves the capacity of the unit a bit, wouldn't you? My relatively big honking Tombstone has a fan. Birthday was 1981.

[kctgb]

Originally Posted by RodJ

I would think it improves the capacity of the unit a bit, wouldn't you? My relatively big honking Tombstone has a fan. Birthday was 1981.

My welder was made in 1959 and it's all copper. It didn't have a fan and it welds so much better than my friends aluminum buz box. My personal feeling is that Lincoln had to put fans in the AC 225 welders to keep the aluminum wire from melting. If I remember correctly copper melts at 700 or 800 degrees hotter than aluminum. I have modified my welder with a 10 inch fan to circulate air through the welder to give it an extremely high duty cycle. I can weld all day at 115 to 180 amps and it never gets warm. I still think copper is the way to go when it comes to welders. Just my two cents.

[AndyA]

Originally Posted by TxDoc

...Even though the material is 90% aluminum, the wire has high frequency electrical properties equal to solid copper.....

Skin effect is only going help at "High Frequency". This would be up at radio wave frequencies, not 60Hz. This is the same reason they silver plate wiring in radio amplifiers. Silver is better, but copper is cheaper.

I'm not sure of any technical benefit on copper plating the aluminum in the AC225. Corrosion resistance may be the reason. Copper can sit in contact with water, aluminum won't be as happy.

[BradTN]

Can anyone actually confirm copper plated aluminum windings in a Lincoln 225 Buzzbox ?
In my '92 model (above) the aluminum has a slightly copper colored insulating coating that looks like yellowed varnish. I've looked it over very close and I don't see any copper plating on the windings. Has someone mistakenly identified the coating/dip as copper ?

On another point...my 2 Lincoln 225 machines have #4 leads on them...I looked at a new one at the big box store that starts with L, and it had wimpy looking #6 leads on it. I'm not saying they won't work, but where is the quality headed ?