Splicing a I-beam together

[Toolferone]

I am not a welder, but I have a basic understanding of it. I took 2 quarters of welding at a comminuty college about 20 years ago. About all I did was run lots of beads on flat stock with a very large stick welder. I am not looking for engineering advice. I want to understand what questions to ask my welder and know what to look for.
Here is what I am getting done.

I have a 12" tall I beam it has a 1/4" web, 6.5" flange that is 3/8" thick and is 26 lbs per foot. It is 24' long. I have another piece same specs but is 4' long. I need to butt weld the 2 together. It is going to be for a 1 ton trolley hoist set up in my home woodworking shop building. It will be a very lightly used. The beam will only be supported at the ends. Most use will be well under 1000 lbs. The trolley does not need to be able to roll over the weld joint. What do I need to understand about the weld? Will the new length be as strong if it was a single piece? Do both pieces need to be ground to a special angle or depth to build up the weld? will the weld go all the way around the beam? What questions am I not asking that I should know?

I did search the forum, but did not find the info I was looking for.

Thank you very much for your help with this.

[Bob]

Are you a good enough weldor to make that serious of a weld if I told you how? Most use will be under a 1000 pounds but not all use. If it breaks then it might kill or maim you or a friend. This ain't nailing boards together. There is a reason good weldors get paid very good wages. There is more to it than meets the eye. Are you good enough?

[russ69coupe]

The op said he was going to have it welded by a welder. He just wants to learn what sort of things to ask about and look for.
Russ

[Toolferone]

Originally Posted by russ69coupe

The op said he was going to have it welded by a welder. He just wants to learn what sort of things to ask about and look for.
Russ

Yes, thank you. I want to be an informed customer.
I hope to do a little hobby welding someday, but I would never try a job like this.

[zapster]

He could just butt it together with a 6" X 3" 1/4" thick plate welded on the middle on both sides and it will be just fine..

But you REALLY should have a half way column from the floor up on both sides...

...zap!

[kolot]

Look to see if your welder will prep the joint with a bevel for better penetration, but the joint and fit up properly without to much gap, ensure the beam is straiht in both directions, helps to have a second straight section of beam to clamp it too while welding to use as a straight edge. A good welder can do it without fish plates on each side of the web, but for what it's worth I would ask for it to be plated 12" each side of the center joint. weld 100% all the way around , 28' span seems like a lot for a center point load that may exceed 1000lbs but I don't have a chart or figures here in front of me, I'm sure someone will chime in. In the event you wanted to hoist something extra heavy at some point you could use a temp support like a screw jack provided you didn't have to trolley in the area of the jack. for 500lbs or less , no problems.
what will your column supports and anchorage be?

[dave powelson]

W-Beam Splice

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...ht=beam+splice

The above may help your understanding.

Suggest you check the deflection of 2000# point load at center of 28' beam--for your knowledge.
Checking the above for max. load would be good to do, as well.

The beam connections to the vertical columns, the columns themselves, the base plates
and the method of securing the base plates deserve the same study and attention
as the beam.....but that's rarely discussed or considered in home brew setups.

[Toolferone]

Originally Posted by dave powelson

W-Beam Splice

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...ht=beam+splice

The above may help your understanding.

Suggest you check the deflection of 2000# point load at center of 28' beam--for your knowledge.
Checking the above for max. load would be good to do, as well.

The beam connections to the vertical columns, the columns themselves, the base plates
and the method of securing the base plates deserve the same study and attention
as the beam.....but that's rarely discussed or considered in home brew setups.

Thanks for the link, Yes all parts of the set-up are important. The old saying that nothing is stronger then the weakest link applies here. The wooden columns and laminated beams I am using have a 5x or more saftety margin. The trolley is a 1.5 ton 50% more then the hoist I have. Simpson-tie makes the connectors and base fixtures I will be using, also far exceeding the load I will have.

All the responses are very helpful. I have already thought about a temporay jack column when working with heavier loads as needed. I am hoping to have the full span clear of columns except the ends. If I put a post right under the splice, it would go right next to my workbench, making that side unuseable. Adding the extra plate sounds like a good idea. I would rather go with overkill.

[Nitesky]

In industry around here you hang a 1-1/2 Ton trolly and you have just rated your lifting equipment @ 1-1/2 Ton. There is already a generous safety factor built into your trolley so you don't have to overdo things.

There is no way that you can guarantee what the next owner of your shop will try to lift. At home a partially trained person will look at the trolley, see the 1-1/2 Ton trolley, do a mental calculation and VOILA -- I can lift 4-1/2 Tons with this thing and since a properly engineered beam should be rated for 10 times the lifted load (includes weight of rigging) . . . Do you see where this is going?

[Toolferone]

Originally Posted by Nitesky

There is no way that you can guarantee what the next owner of your shop will try to lift. At home a partially trained person will look at the trolley, see the 1-1/2 Ton trolley, do a mental calculation and VOILA -- I can lift 4-1/2 Tons with this thing and since a properly engineered beam should be rated for 10 times the lifted load (includes weight of rigging) . . . Do you see where this is going?

Good advise. I do plan on living here a long time, but in the event I do move, my plan would include removing the beam, just for the reason you stated. Thx.

[DLite]

Looks good.

Maximum deflection with a 2000 lbf load at midspan, including the weight of the I-beam will about 1/4", and maximum stress should be less than 10,000 psi, a third less than the yeild strenth of A36 structural steel.

[NHMatt]

All lifting devices should be built to a 5:1 safety factor. If it needs to hold 1000lbs, build it to lift 5000lbs. That is usually the same factor used in all of the rigging equipment. On a beam splice like that I have always liked to fully weld the flanges and the web. Then I would grind the weld in the web smooth and place a square plate in the diamond position over the joints on each side and weld all around those. Then you know its strong enough.

[dave powelson]

What are you using for vertical support of the beam?

quoting myself from prior ---"The beam connections to the vertical columns, the columns themselves, the base plates
and the method of securing the base plates deserve the same study and attention as the beam.....but that's rarely discussed or considered in home brew setups."

[Toolferone]

Originally Posted by dave powelson

What are you using for vertical support of the beam?

Factory made engineered wood columns. They are 6 x 6 and will support 11,000 lbs each. There will be 2 columns at the front with a 10' span of a pair of 2 x 12 LVL beams with the center point load at 9,000 lbs (if I remember right) The specs for them is from a engineer at the manufacturer. The columns and the LVL's will be fastened to the walls of my shop to keep them from racking or tipping. The other end will be a wood column fastened to the wall with the beam sitting on top. There will be steel plates bolting the beam to the column and the LVL beam. All the columns will be anchored to the floor with Simpson-tie connectors designed for such.

[CEP]

Originally Posted by Toolferone

The specs for them is from a engineer at the manufacturer.

Did the engineer happen to give you a safety factor he is working with, 5 to 1, 3 to 1?

[Toolferone]

Originally Posted by CEP

Did the engineer happen to give you a safety factor he is working with, 5 to 1, 3 to 1?

I am out of town and don't have the specs with me. Sorry, I don't remember.

[CEP]

No big deal, I was just curious.

[Fegenbush]

Originally Posted by CEP

Did the engineer happen to give you a safety factor he is working with, 5 to 1, 3 to 1?

A lot of structural engineering doesn't work that way any more. The old way (Allowable Stress Design) would use a safety factor against yield. The new(er) way (Allowable Strength Design) uses a similar safety factor (1.68 against yield, 2 against rupture) and different load combinations than Allowable Stress Design. The last way (Load Resistance Factor Design) differentiates between dead, live, wind, snow, etc. loads and applies different load factors, then applies strength reduction factors to the other side of the equation.

[CEP]

I thought all engineers dealt with safety factors when it came to rigging, cranes, and hoist.

[Pavinsteelman]

Bevel 2 flanges to a 45 rat hole the beam use a 3/8x1 backup bar fullpen the flanges and partial pen the web from both sides use a 3/16 rod hot 6010 or 7018 . John

[BCRD]

Originally Posted by Pavinsteelman

Bevel 2 flanges to a 45 rat hole the beam use a 3/8x1 backup bar fullpen the flanges and partial pen the web from both sides use a 3/16 rod hot 6010 or 7018 . John

"rat hole the beam" is a new term for me. Would you care to educate me? Thanks

Jason

[CEP]

Originally Posted by BCRD

"rat hole the beam" is a new term for me. Would you care to educate me? Thanks

Jason

I'm sure this is what he is talking about.

[Fegenbush]

Interesting. I've done some work for them. Nice people. I am sure they were in good company, working with you, and vice versa.

I would suspect that Kiewit Engineering would be pretty heavy on the number of engineers they employ. Interestingly enough, they mention Geotechnical as one of their primary functions. Geotech is its own beast entirely, but the reports I was reviewing today listed a safety factor of 3 for soil bearing capacity.

[Dualie]

the safety factor for overhead lifting design and engineering is still 5:1. designing an overhead lifting structure is completely different than designing a building.

[Fegenbush]

Originally Posted by Dualie

the safety factor for overhead lifting design and engineering is still 5:1. designing an overhead lifting structure is completely different than designing a building.

Overhead lifting may be different than designing a building, but the following article from Cranes Today magazine (I think the article is from 2010) discusses how safety factors do not take into account risk and cites EN standards that discourage the use of ASD methods.
http://www.cranestodaymagazine.com/s...rycode=2052366

This article from thefabricator, another industry magazine, specifically mentions the lack of safety factors incorporated into crane systems.
http://www.thefabricator.com/article...t-crane-safety

OSHA 1910.179(b)(2) makes mention of ANSI/ASME B30.2. I checked the 2010 edition and didn't see mention of design criteria at all in that standard.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...ards&p_id=9830

I did find many references to the CMAA (Crane Manufacturers Association of America) Specification 74. I looked into that one, and it lists allowable stresses (60% of yield for tension and compression in Case) which equates to a safety factor of 1.67. However, they also adjust the loads based on their own factors (Dead loads multiplied by between 1.1 and 1.2, Hoist loads multiplied between 1.15 and 1.5, based on travel and hoist speed respectively, for example)

In short, I found no reference to a safety factor of 5 for cranes or crane systems. If you have a reference to the contrary, I would be most interested in reading it.