This Amp/Volt thing :confused

[nvreloader]

HI guys,
New to the site, but I have read most all the posts for a long time, decided to join and get some education from here, love the site.

I cannot get this amp/volt thing straight in my head.

I have just built a 40'x40' shop for the lathe and mill and now have 2 Miller welders to figure in.

The Sampson lathe is 2HP, 110/220 1ph, 25a w/110 and 13a w/220,
Bridgeport Mill 2hp, 220V 3ph, (I just found out, have to change the motor before hooking up to run), it will be 20a-220V, 1ph with new motor installed,

I was given a Miller AC/DC Thunderbolt stick welder, 34a, 220V, 1ph,

I had just bought a New Miller 211 WF, still in box unsued, 25a, 110 or 220 1ph,
I want the 220V to run off of.

TH RV 20a, 110V, no problem here, all ready hooked up, 10' wire run.
Cooler Room (meat locker) 20a-220v for compressor etc, 20' wire run length.

We, son and I are just starting to pull/installing the wiring for the above equipment, then we will have the retire Sparky (30yr) next door do the actual connecting etc,
if I promise to give him ALL the liver from the game we harvest, this yr, no problem as I feed it to the dogs, Yuk!

So far we have the following wire pulled,
wire run lengths for the welders are 20-25' and the lathe/mill wire run lengths are 25-30',
each line/run is seperate for EACH machine.

#1. (lathe) Wire run is 20a-220 single phase, wire size is AWG 12
#2. (mill) Wire run is 20a-220 single phase, wire size is AWG 12
#3. (Miller 211) Wire run is 30a-220 single phase, wire size is AWG10, have a 50', 8-3 ext cord to reach outside for this welder
#4. (Miller AC/DC Thunderbolt)Wire run is 50a-220 single phase, wire size is Awg 8

Do, I have heavy enough 220 circuits to safely run the lathe,mill and both welders??? etc.
Plus there is a double 110v plug in at each location by each machine and every 10' along the walls.

What am I missing or need to correct with any or all of the above???

Is there anything that I need to add, change or any other suggestions?

We will finish and button everything this coming weekend, then I can start having fun building all my projects that have been on the back shelf for the last 20+ yrs.

Tia,
Don

[Silicon-based]

The individual circuits you describe sound good, as long as the building's incoming service is large enough to handle the equipment and the cooler.

I would also recommend another 20 or 30A circuit for an air compressor, which you will need eventually if not right away. Also think of future equipment (plasma cutter, larger welders, other machine tools- you know you want 'em ) and make sure your electrical service will accommodate them.

John

PS- on second thought, make your MIG circuit 60A in case you upgrade that 211 to something bigger in the future...

[DSW]

10-3 is plenty for the MM211, but I'd run 8-3 myself instead. If you do so, then at a later date, you can always use that outlet for a 50 amp welder or plasma. Right now you'd be limited by the wire in the walls. Your 8-3 extension cord won't help much if your wall wire is only 10 -3.

I ran everything with 6 ga wire myself simply because I knew I was only going to do it once and wanted to make sure I had enough capacity for later additions if needed. I can always install a larger breaker if I need to because I ran the bigger size wire in the walls. If you run the small wire, you'll have to run a whole new circuit to upgrade the wire.

[nvreloader]

Originally Posted by Silicon-based

The individual circuits you describe sound good, as long as the building's incoming service is large enough to handle the equipment and the cooler.

I would also recommend another 20 or 30A circuit for an air compressor, which you will need eventually if not right away. Also think of future equipment (plasma cutter, larger welders, other machine tools- you know you want 'em ) and make sure your electrical service will accommodate them.

John

PS- on second thought, make your MIG circuit 60A in case you upgrade that 211 to something bigger in the future...

John,
I already have a compressor, runs 110/220, 20a, so that end is covered, the next item is a small saw 6" max cut, Sawsall work OK, just take some time and I hate running into town for several small cuts etc.

The main service coming in is a 200A or may be slightly bigger,Commerical HD Panel), I'll have to check when the suns up, I don't like the darkness.

I have access to a BIG shop, 6+ mills, 10+ lathes, A BIG BIG Miller WF, several other sizes of stick also, a complete well stocked Machine shop etc and I have the keys to the front door for use anytime I need it etc.

This new setup is for my home use and playing around after hours etc.

Tia,
Don

[Oldiron2]

Posted by the OP:
Is there anything that I need to add, change or any other suggestions?

If you have access to cheap old three phase motors (a heavy 3 to 5 hp one would be ideal), you could build a rotary phase converter very easily, rather than change the motor on the mill.

There have been a number of good threads about converters, over the years here.

[nvreloader]

DSW

IF,? I understand this amp thing, I CANNOT run the Miller 211 on the 50a line (set up for the AC/DC Thunderbolt) welder?? Too many amps and I'll let out the magic smoke and crispy critter it, Correct?

Tia,
Don

[brucer]

Originally Posted by nvreloader

DSW

IF,? I understand this amp thing, I CANNOT run the Miller 211 on the 50a line (set up for the AC/DC Thunderbolt) welder?? Too many amps and I'll let out the magic smoke and crispy critter it, Correct?

Tia,
Don

No, I run my Lincoln 180c off a 50amp circuit..

[DSW]

Originally Posted by nvreloader

DSW

IF,? I understand this amp thing, I CANNOT run the Miller 211 on the 50a line (set up for the AC/DC Thunderbolt) welder?? Too many amps and I'll let out the magic smoke and crispy critter it, Correct?

No, the way it works is that the breaker in the panel only protects the wires in the wall, not the equipment.

As long as the breaker is sized to be no larger than what the wire will handle, you are OK. The problem comes when your machine tries to draw too many amps for the wire in the wall that was installed. Example: if some one was stupid enough to just toss a 50 amp breaker on a 14 ga wire line. Then the wire in the wall could heat up from the over current and start a fire. The wire is now the "weak link" in the system, not the breaker.

Also remember you can always install a smaller breaker on larger wire ( within reason), so running 6 ga wire and only installing a 30 amp breaker would be fine and wouldn't hurt anything. Later if needed you could "upgrade" and install a 60 amp breaker on that 6 ga wire and run say a large plasma for just the cost of the breaker.

Running a larger draw machine on a smaller breaker usually just limits the output of the machine to what ever it's max is before the breaker trips. That's why many guys can run Lincoln AC 225 stick machines rated for 220v 50 amps power on 220v 30 amp dryer outlets. They are usually limited to running 3/32" rods before the machine tries to draw more than 30 amps and the breaker trips to protect the wires in the wall.


You let the smoke out when you wire the machine to the wrong voltage, especially if the voltage is too high. You can't try to run a 110v machine on 220v power. You'll burn up the machine. If you try to run a 220v machine on 110v, usually it simply won't function, but there is a chance it will damage the machine. Exceptions being machines like your MM211 that are designed to run on either voltage. Newer multivoltage machines often automatically adjust, older ones you usually have to move jumpers around on the machine say to go to 480 v power.

( Note: "110v" is often use to designate a voltage anywhere from 110-120v. "110v", 115v", and "120v" are all the same way to talk about standard house hold voltage."220v" is used to designate 220-240v. "220v", "230v" and "240v" are all ways to talk abut standard house hold voltages that draw power from both legs of the electrical service. ("208v" however is a 3 phase voltage) Part of this is due to the "older" way some people used to note voltages and part has to do with the fact you can have a fluctuation of 10% in line voltage and still be within "specs" for most equipment. I used 220v above simply because that's the designation you used originally for clarity.


I use the same outlet in my garage ( 50 amp 230v power on 6 ga wire) to run my Syncrowave 200 ( rated 60 amps 220), my Hypertherm PM 1000 ( rated 50 amps 230v) and my MM185 ( rated at 26 amps 230v)

[drujinin]

Comment on the 110 outlets at each location and every 10 feet on the walls. Put these on their own breakers. Say one for every 2 walls? This way if you trip out on something on one wall, everything else on that line won't go off also. Its all about load.

[Farmerboy]

as said all the breaker does is for the protection of the wiring in the building,

you plug a lamp that is only pulling an amp or so into a 20 amp protected circuit do you not?

do not know the lay out of the shop, but having a few different plugs around the shop may not hurt any thing, (they may or may not be on the same breaker),

(yes it is usually best to size the line to the machine, like your doing, but you could plug the lath into the welder plug if there both 220 volts, and it would work fine, (one would need a different plug on lath most likely),

but if you have a sparky next door even if you have to pay him ask him for some advice,

I my self I like to use a double box for the 120 volt receptacles and put them about ever 4 foot where your benches and work stations are, it seem if you want to plug in one thing there are three more things you will want in that area as well,

for a home shop (unless you plan on a number of you working at once) having an individual breaker on just a few circuits, is kind of unnecessary, as you can only run on machine at a time,), or pull only so many triggers at once,

but I would get a box that has extra spaces for future expansion, I have never seen a building that was not expand, (no matter how well the plan was when it was built), think of the number of things that are avaiable today that were not even just a few years ago,)

[nvreloader]

Originally Posted by Oldiron2

If you have access to cheap old three phase motors (a heavy 3 to 5 hp one would be ideal), you could build a rotary phase converter very easily, rather than change the motor on the mill.
There have been a number of good threads about converters, over the years here.

Oldiron2
Thank you,
For the info on using an old 3 phase motors for a convertor etc, I'll go on line and find the info on "How To" build one, I know the shop has several of these older motors sitting around that we don't use, don't know the HP yet. I have never set up a shop/garage before and I am getting some education, which I need
Tia,
Don

[nvreloader]

Originally Posted by drujinin

Comment on the 110 outlets at each location and every 10 feet on the walls. Put these on their own breakers. Say one for every 2 walls? This way if you trip out on something on one wall, everything else on that line won't go off also. Its all about load.

Drujinin
Each of the wall plug runs/lights are on it's own circuit, 120v-20a breaker/Awg 12 wire for every 10 plugs, all thru the garge/shop area. The overhead F lights (4-8' long) are on their own curcuits 120v/20a breakers/12 Awg wire, the Compressor has it's own 120v/20a breaker as does the 120v/20a, TH RV curcuit etc.

The HD curcuits that will run the lathe/mill and welders with 220v/20a-12Awg w/ breakers each line, 220v/30a-10Awg breaker for the 211 and 220v-50a-8Awg breaker for the Thunderbolt, and the 220v/30a-10Awg Cool room.

There is 6-8 open spaces NOT used at this time in the panel, subject to change, if needed before we finish the wiring and install the insulation/plywood covering etc. I want this correct the first time as this is my 1 and ONLY Chance to have what I want in this area, the better half gets her redo on the addition that's pending after this work is completed.

Edited info, too correct wrong info given in the first posts,

Guys,
I screwed up, gave some wrong info on my end,
The Miller Thunderbolt welder is rated at 45.5a-230V, AC/DC Model JD 37, (not 34a as I stated before)
The main panel is 200amps and I have only 3 open spaces left, out of 18 total spaces.

Tia,
Don

[nvreloader]

Ok Guys,

This is where it's starts getting me,

I can SAFELY run and NOT hurt these machines from 1 or 2 lines that are properly sized wired w/correct breaker size for each set of machines, welders and lathe/mill?

Welders line,
The 8 Awg wire/line, 220v-50a breaker for the
Miller Thunderbolt welder (45.5a) and the 211 welder (25.3a), not at the same time of course?? I change to the correct plug (6-50) on/for the Thunderbolt, which is also the same as the new Miller 211 plug and use the same line?

Lathe/mill line,
The 10 Awg wire/line, 220v-30a breaker for the lathe/mill, make the plugs the same for each machine ??

This is where I don't understand about this amp thing, I was told, I CANNOT run all of these machines from 1 or 2 common lines that were wired correctly, each machine needed it's OWN circuit because of the BIG amp difference of/for each welder etc, the big amp welder line will burn up the smaller amp welder etc.

Yet, I can plug in a 3 amp drill into a 20a circuit and the nothing happens to the drill etc.

Reason for the above Dumb questions, as I only have 3 open spaces left in the panel and if I can get the HD welders/lathes/mill to run from 1 or 2 lines, that frees up some extra spaces, thinking ahead, as I don't know what amp/volts a small saw will need/required to run it.

Tia,
Don

[ccawgc]

If you only have 3 slots left, That's 1 220 volt and 1 115 volt circuit.
If you need more circuits, you mount a sub panel and wire out of it.
It can be mounted inside your new shop. Just wire to code.

[nvreloader]

Originally Posted by ccawgc

If you only have 3 slots left, That's 1 220 volt and 1 115 volt circuit.
If you need more circuits, you mount a sub panel and wire out of it.
It can be mounted inside your new shop. Just wire to code.

CCAWGC
Would you care to explain, why I only have 2 slots left from your info above, there seems to be a missing slot somewhere?

Everything is wired to code, per the son, he is a custom house contractor, (wood side only).

Tia,
Don

[walker]

Think of 'the amp thing' in terms of a garden hose. With a small hose you can only draw, say, 1 gallon of water a minute. With a large hose you can draw 20 gallons per minute. The wire size is very similar to the hose size in that you can only fit so many amps through it at a given time. If you draw more amps, and this is where it differs from the garden hose, the wire heats up and can cause a fire, or melt something down. You can run multiple machines off of a single circuit, especially in the situation where you can't weld and run the mill at the same time. Personally, I wired all mine individually as well, and with #8 wire for my 10-20' runs, so that I had options for the future.
So, back to the garden hose thing. You can screw on a very small nozzle onto your hose, or a very large one, and so long as your hose is sized appropriately for the larger nozzle, they both work properly. which is why you can plug an LED light, that draws .05 amps into a 20 amp circuit.
Good luck

[Farmerboy]

I do believe it is better to have the breakers sized near the max of the machine being ran, and most of the time major machines are wired to specific breakers,

but for an example I have a conversion plug for plugging in my insulation blower to a Dryer or a range receptacle and it will run on a 220 15 amp circuit,

you could consider conduit and even a sub panel some where, for some other breakers or just get a larger panel

[DanT]

Originally Posted by nvreloader

This is where I don't understand about this amp thing, I was told, I CANNOT run all of these machines from 1 or 2 common lines that were wired correctly, each machine needed it's OWN circuit because of the BIG amp difference of/for each welder etc, the big amp welder line will burn up the smaller amp welder etc.

I think it would be helpful to clear up this confusion first and then everything DSW and the others have said should fall into place.

I'm not an Electrician or Electrical Engineer so take these examples with a grain of salt.

We'll use the garden hose illustration for simplicity's sake.
Think of the Amps rating as the capacity of the hose and the Volts rating as the gallons per minute speed or velocity. If you have a 1" garden hose with 1 gallon per minute flowing through it, you have a healthy stream of water that'll do the flowers some good. However, if you decrease the capacity of the hose the velocity of the water would have to increase in order to maintain the 1 gallon per minute flow rate. Now it's a high velocity stream, even though it's still just a 1 gallon per minute total rate.

I don't want to muddy the issue (or overextend my own knowledgeable limits) but with the garden hose issue you can see there would ultimately be pressure issues trying to force 1 gpm through a smaller and smaller tube. Similar problem with electricity and smaller gauge wire.

The amps a device draws is the amount of electricity it's pulling through the wire - overextend the amount the wire is rated for and you run into hazards such as overheating wires, tripped breakers, equipment malfunction, or even fires. But if you're drawing less than the maximum amount that the hose, er wire, is capable of carrying then you don't have any problem at all other than the cost of the copper you're burying in the wall (i.e. no need to use 10 or 8 ga for a 110v outlet, you'll never need it).

Larger gauge wire costs more but could be a benefit if you're going to plug in a larger machine or upgrade down the road. But either way you won't hurt anything by plugging a machine into a circuit with more capacity (amps) than the device is going to use.

I hope this helps answer what you were asking.

[DanT]

Whoops, Walker beat me to it and with the same example no less.

[nvreloader]

Well Guys,

The new shop/garge is wired and ALL curcuits are hot. : blob3:

Now comes the work, giving it a Good clean up top to bottom, moving the heavy lathe/mill into their locations, installing shelving etc, so I can reopen the Gun Smithing shop, installing shelving etc, and figuring out what I can do with all this newly found space!!!!!!!!!.

Also have a new addition, an 8" wide cut, 45* angle cutting metal Horizonal/Verticle bandsaw for $75 from CL. Now to find a good Victor A/O setup etc.

FYI, I received an email back from Miller, the 211 can run on 50a-230v curcuit as there is a built in reducing switch for voltage to protect everything, but was told to run it on a 30A -230v curcuit if available.

Tia,
Don

[Seafarer12]

Originally Posted by Oldiron2

If you have access to cheap old three phase motors (a heavy 3 to 5 hp one would be ideal), you could build a rotary phase converter very easily, rather than change the motor on the mill.

There have been a number of good threads about converters, over the years here.

Or just buy a variable frequency drive. They make drives up to about 3hp that are one phase in 3 phase out. Then you would have clean three phase.

[Oldiron2]

Originally Posted by Seafarer12

Or just buy a variable frequency drive. They make drives up to about 3hp that are one phase in 3 phase out. Then you would have clean three phase.

That is another alternative. Would more speed control be useful and worth the difference?

Motors are nearly, if not entirely free, in many places while VFD's aren't exactly cheap. Properly assembled rotary converters work fine and are simple to build, can give fairly balanced three phase current that work well, and don't present the problem of needing to modify the equipment wiring so as to not be able to interrupt the current between the drive and the equipment motor, as by accidentally turning off a mill without thinking.

[Seafarer12]

You don't need to to use the speed control option. You can set up a drive to work just like a motor starter. You can run a rotary converter (mg set is what I call them) but it won't be the cleanest power. Not to mention the added machines that can fail and the poor power conversion. The power conversion isn't a big deal unless you are running it all the time, then it will show up on your electric bill. I looked you can get a 2hp drive for about 250.

[Oldiron2]

Originally Posted by Seafarer12

You don't need to to use the speed control option. You can set up a drive to work just like a motor starter. You can run a rotary converter (mg set is what I call them) but it won't be the cleanest power. Not to mention the added machines that can fail and the poor power conversion. The power conversion isn't a big deal unless you are running it all the time, then it will show up on your electric bill. I looked you can get a 2hp drive for about 250.

If all he wants is to run a few machines and a free method works fine, why worry about how clean the power is? As I understood the OP's situation, we're talking about a typical home shop so power usage will be fairly small. Power conversion doesn't need to be bad if the system works correctly and besides, heating or cooling the shop may be much more significant.
I've known lots of people running rotaries and haven't heard of any have problems with motor failure, and finally, in my book $250 is a rather large expense compared to Free or nearly so, particularly if the main feature of the VSD isn't even going to be used.

[Seafarer12]

I doubt he can get all the things required for free. You have to find 2 5hp motors one being three phase. Then all the stuff to make a frame and coupling. Then you may or may not have good balanced voltage. You run a 3 phase motor imbalanced long enough it will fail. Last time I looked at what bridgeport mill went for 250 isnt much. He would also have the option of using the VFD in the future if needed.